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View Full Version : VEPR .308 Vs. Saiga .308



DogDoc
05-15-2011, 05:12 PM
For those "in the know" how do these two rifles compare?

Were you to get a .308 Kalashnikov type rifle, which would you choose and why?

I have a PSL that I'm getting to know (and quite liking) any advantage to either of the above to a PSL?

I have a lot of .308 ammo, a couple of .308 bolt actions and am set up to re-load .308 so it makes sense to have a .308 semi-auto around. Also makes sense to have all the controls on that .308 match my AK carbines.

So, I've decided to sell my FAL and Socom and figured I'd pick up a .308 Kalashnikov to have around should 7.62X54R availability become a problem (and because I'm so invested in the .308 caliber anyway). Heck, I could buy 3 "AK" .308s for what I have in the FAL and Socom so I might as well get one.

With the left-over cash, I plan to go visit SI for a software upgrade to go with my hardware. :)

So, what do you recommend Saiga, VEPR or some other that isn't on my RADAR?

Doc

OldRonin
05-15-2011, 05:17 PM
I'm just as happy as a pig in mud with my Saiga .308. I bought it after selling my SOCOM. No regrets.

DogDoc
05-15-2011, 05:30 PM
I'm just as happy as a pig in mud with my Saiga .308. I bought it after selling my SOCOM. No regrets.

Well that's what I'm looking for. LOL

I feel the same way about my AK-47s/74s after selling my .223 rifles. Looking to get that kind of feeling from a .308 as well. Nothing wrong with simple. :)

Doc

warwick
05-15-2011, 07:40 PM
Even though I own a heavily modified saiga .308 and I love it, a Super Vepr is my dream GSR.

DogDoc
05-15-2011, 10:17 PM
Even though I own a heavily modified saiga .308 and I love it, a Super Vepr is my dream GSR.

Can you elaborate? What does the VEPR do better than the Saiga?

Doc

dtom29
05-16-2011, 01:21 AM
Sell a FAL????? :scared1::facepalm::twak:

warwick
05-16-2011, 06:37 AM
Can you elaborate? What does the VEPR do better than the Saiga?

Doc

The Vepr is built on the thicker RPK receIver, which many people attribute to better accuracy. From a fit and finish factor it is hard to beat and in my opinion veprs are much nicer than saigas in that area. Not really much of an issue when choosing a Kalashnikov for a GSR but just a general indicator of attention to detail and quality. Anything made by molot is usually top shelf.

Aside from those qualities, if you want to modify or update your GSR with more current accessories, I'd opt for the saiga. You certainly can
Not go wrong with either.

FrankDude72
05-16-2011, 06:54 AM
I personally prefer .308 Galils... but those are more of a MBR AK and rare and expensive.

But reports I'm hearing from the range on .308 Saigas and Vepr in the sniper role sound encouraging.

Veprs haven't been made in quite a while, and are infrequent finds even on gunbroker.
Same with the mags and spare parts.

DogDoc
05-16-2011, 07:58 AM
Veprs haven't been made in quite a while, and are infrequent finds even on gunbroker.
Same with the mags and spare parts.

Bad news indeed. That's probably a deal breaker for me on a rifle regardless of quality. :(

Doc

DogDoc
05-16-2011, 08:49 AM
Sell a FAL????? :scared1::facepalm::twak:

Yeah, I know...
The FAL is amazing but it's charging handle is bass-akwards and it weighs more stripped than my PSL weighs with it's optic. I think the FAL is probably a better rifle in almost every respect but I've bonded with the Kalashnikovs... warts and all.

In another thread, Gabe mentioned:


I like the Kalashnikov platform and believe very strongly that MASTERING one platform is better than knowing several platforms "pretty good". While my FAL is very good and I can shoot it well, I do not spend time working with my FALs. I do spend time working with my AKs. So it makes far more sense for me to opt for the PSL over the FAL since it is exactly like my shotgun (Saiga 12), my GOTO rifles (all AK), my short rifles (Suchkas) and my soon to be delivered Vityaz SMG (AK in 7.62x25). All the controls on these are identically located, all feel the same, look the same, shoot the same.

This was pretty startling to me. I mean, if a guy who spends as much time shooting and drilling as Gabe does doesn't feel he has time to master two systems it'd be pretty ridiculous for me to try to manage it with my limited resources.

So, I've decided to stick with 30 cals that work the same as my AK carbines.

I'd just stick with my PSL and call it good but, as I said, I'm pretty invested in the .308 caliber and it looks like there will be a 20 rd Saiga mag much sooner than a 20 rd PSL mag so I figured I'd pick one up. Looks like it ought to be a Saiga since the VEPR is on the endangered species list.

Doc

bc45
05-16-2011, 09:13 AM
I have 3 saigas, one vepr -vepr is the best.
Vepr has been converted to take saiga .308 mags. by Red Jacket and all variations
of saiga mags from ishmash to metal ones to u 308s fit fine.

DogDoc
05-16-2011, 09:22 AM
I have 3 saigas, one vepr -vepr is the best.
Vepr has been converted to take saiga .308 mags. by Red Jacket and all variations
of saiga mags from ishmash to metal ones to u 308s fit fine.

Now there's something.

If I could get it working with Saiga mags a VEPR would still work for me. Thanks much.

Doc

Snakum
05-16-2011, 12:41 PM
I'm sure a VEPR can be made to shoot tighter than an S308. But I've been working on loads and on technique with my Saiga all week and today I shot seven rounds into 1.25 with two flyers taking it 1.75" (I had 12 rounds and used 3 to zero). For around $650 including barrel work and a brake I don't think you can beat it. Let's say a VEPR shoots close to MOA after load development and smith work. You've probably put out around a grand to gain that extra .250", which probably isn't going to be noticeable in the field.

But gun purchases aren't supposed to be logical. Otherwise no one would buy milled Arsenals or Krebs Custom AKs. Buy what you want ... shoot the hell out of it. Enjoy!

DogDoc
05-16-2011, 01:30 PM
I'm sure a VEPR can be made to shoot tighter than an S308. But I've been working on loads and on technique with my Saiga all week and today I shot seven rounds into 1.25 with two flyers taking it 1.75" (I had 12 rounds and used 3 to zero). For around $650 including barrel work and a brake I don't think you can beat it. Let's say a VEPR shoots close to MOA after load development and smith work. You've probably put out around a grand to gain that extra .250", which probably isn't going to be noticeable in the field.

But gun purchases aren't supposed to be logical. Otherwise no one would buy milled Arsenals or Krebs Custom AKs. Buy what you want ... shoot the hell out of it. Enjoy!

So are you saying you put $650 into the upgrade or that the total package, rifle and all, was $650?

Doc

DogDoc
05-16-2011, 03:26 PM
Anyone ever heard of a Saiga being modified to take FAL mags?

Doc

Netpackrat
05-16-2011, 03:52 PM
There was a guy called "BattlerifleG3" on various forums a few years ago, who modified his S-308 to take G3 magazines, but that required an adapter block, plus metal removal from the receiver/trunnion. From some of his postings, I gathered that the conversion wasn't 100% reliable, either. The problem with converting the rifle to take other mags, is that most of them are wider in the front than the Saiga mags, so you end up having to remove a bunch of metal from the rifle, so that it won't take Saiga mags anymore. Same with converting the mags to fit the rifle, metal has to be removed from the mags, tabs welded on, and often the follower needs to be modified. IIRC, M-14 magazines require the least amount of work, but also may not feed the full 20 rounds properly. Best to just buy dedicated Saiga magazines. If you want metal mags, CSSpecs is supposed to be working on an improved version of his, made with actual stamping equipment, instead of being made up of hand formed pieces. I know a lot of guys complain about the price of his mags, but it always amazes me that one guy with a workshop can make mags as reliable as they are, while charging as little as he does.

Snakum
05-21-2011, 07:55 PM
So are you saying you put $650 into the upgrade or that the total package, rifle and all, was $650?

Doc

Everything but the scope came to around $650. It'll never shoot with an RRA or DPMS AR10, which are almost always sub MOA with handloads. But 1.5 MOA to 500 yards with handloads ain't bad either for what it'll be used for. It's not a bad deal at all. I decided to keep it and learn how to wring everything I can out of it from prone and positional. Might even run it in a two-gun match.

AKman
06-03-2011, 09:58 PM
I spoke with Jim today and when talking about furnituire, etc. he said for the Saiga 308 my options were more limited as for the Folding Stk, Handgard and even which Flash Hiders I could go with. Can anyone out there who has a Saiga in a 308 shed any more light on this for me. Thanks! AKman

Stupiddumbface
06-04-2011, 08:49 AM
I have neither of them but there are vepr 308's for sale at jgsales. As far as the saiga goes couldn't you thread the barrel and use any 762 flash suppressor/hider? A simple conversion on the trigger group would eliminate the stock issues. I have done 2 siaga conversions, both were painless.

FrankDude72
06-04-2011, 11:47 AM
I spoke with Jim today and when talking about furnituire, etc. he said for the Saiga 308 my options were more limited as for the Folding Stk, Handgard and even which Flash Hiders I could go with. Can anyone out there who has a Saiga in a 308 shed any more light on this for me. Thanks! AKman

Perhaps PM John Chambers.

He had Red Jacket make him a nice .308 Saiganov.

Marc-X
08-10-2011, 03:24 PM
JMHO: I have used a VEPR Super for 7 years now as a long distance hunting rifle (up to 750 yards). It's topped with a Nightforce NXS 3.5-15x56 scope + Tenebraex ARD and consistently shoots sub MOA with home rolled ammo. As low as 1/4 MOA at 100 meters. This rifle is equipped with a custom match trigger and a BR Reflex T8 telescopic suppressor. This makes for extreme accuracy. It shoots far better with the suppressor than without. I also have modified the stock stock by milling 3 cooling vents on each side. A mirage band and suppressor sock is also in use. I also have NV equipment for this rifle. AFAIC this is the best shooting semi auto rifle I have EVER shot. I would NOT consider any other platform for a semi than the AK, not for a PSD weapon, nor for any other tactical application either, that's why I bought the VEPR Super (now heavily modified gas system, trigger, scope mount, and a lot more minor fiddling )
Currently I'm building a fiberglass stock for it since the wood effects the sub-MOA accuracy.


You'll find a pic of the rifle at my FB page: http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=2127323896452&set=a.1697520671640.2093487.1046550684&type=1
Best regards from a nowadays "nobody"

///Marc living in Arctic Norway

Snakum
08-12-2011, 04:33 PM
I spoke with Jim today and when talking about furnituire, etc. he said for the Saiga 308 my options were more limited as for the Folding Stk, Handgard and even which Flash Hiders I could go with. Can anyone out there who has a Saiga in a 308 shed any more light on this for me. Thanks! AKman

He was possibly thinking of the difficulty of changing trunions to run traditional Com Bloc folders, as the Saiga can be made to accept the Ace folding block and tubular stock. I believe Gabe sells these parts. As for handguards, unfortunately the S308 is very limited. That's why I've just stayed with the stock hand guard. I have read that the Midwest railed handguard for Saigas can be made to work on the 308, but it requires a bit of work. I'm hoping Midwest might one day make a bolt-on for the 308 ... and that US Palm will make mags for it. :biglaugh:

DogDoc
08-13-2011, 10:10 PM
Picked up a VEPR. Quite like a lot of things about it. Sadly, it really beats the heck out of the brass.

Since being gentle on brass for re-loading is one of my priorities in a rifle I'm afraid the VEPR will be moving along to another. :(

Doc

Netpackrat
08-14-2011, 12:29 AM
Picked up a VEPR. Quite like a lot of things about it. Sadly, it really beats the heck out of the brass.

Since being gentle on brass for re-loading is one of my priorities in a rifle I'm afraid the VEPR will be moving along to another. :(


The .308 Saiga isn't any better. Usually it just dents the brass, sometimes it makes a big gouge. I toss the gouged ones, and the dented ones seem to reload just fine. I think with the TWS cover the denting is actually a little worse. If you are not using a TWS cover (which is too thick), you can fit a Valmet ejection buffer, which is rubber and should prevent the denting. As I understand it, the occasional gouge is a result of the third bolt lug that the .308 has, which can be reshaped slightly be somebody who knows what they are doing, to alleviate the problem.

Snakum
08-15-2011, 07:37 PM
I don't know much about the VEPR, but if it's denting brass on the edge of the ejection port you can fold a few layers of 100 mile an hour tape over the edge. I've cut my brass throw-aways down to almost nothing on the S308 with the taped edges.

Netpackrat
08-16-2011, 03:46 AM
I'll have to give that a shot. I've tried gluing one of those plastic strips like you put on the edges of car doors to the factory cover before I got the TWS, and it always works great for a few rounds, and then the plastic departs and you are back to where you were before, but with a hunk of glue stuck to the cover. Not even JB weld would keep it in place.

mde762
08-18-2011, 02:22 PM
Ive had a saiga 308 for several years now, and its been a great weapon. The fit and finish on mine has been great, and it gets 2.5-4 MOA largely depending on ammo. And with a top rail on it, and a POSP 2-6x24 weaver mount(I love the russian reticle...and Ive had nothing but good experiences with combloc glass) this thing fits my style like a glove. And at the range since Ive been back its really turned heads. Now it just needs a flash hider.

Bulleteater
08-19-2011, 10:50 PM
JMHO: I have used a VEPR Super for 7 years now as a long distance hunting rifle (up to 750 yards). It's topped with a Nightforce NXS 3.5-15x56 scope + Tenebraex ARD and consistently shoots sub MOA with home rolled ammo. As low as 1/4 MOA at 100 meters. This rifle is equipped with a custom match trigger and a BR Reflex T8 telescopic suppressor. This makes for extreme accuracy. It shoots far better with the suppressor than without. I also have modified the stock stock by milling 3 cooling vents on each side. A mirage band and suppressor sock is also in use. I also have NV equipment for this rifle. AFAIC this is the best shooting semi auto rifle I have EVER shot. I would NOT consider any other platform for a semi than the AK, not for a PSD weapon, nor for any other tactical application either, that's why I bought the VEPR Super (now heavily modified gas system, trigger, scope mount, and a lot more minor fiddling )
Currently I'm building a fiberglass stock for it since the wood effects the sub-MOA accuracy.


You'll find a pic of the rifle at my FB page: http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=2127323896452&set=a.1697520671640.2093487.1046550684&type=1
Best regards from a nowadays "nobody"

///Marc living in Arctic Norway

For those of us who don't have facebook accts could you post a photo here? Your description is intriguing and I really want to see what this looks like.

usmc1986
10-27-2011, 08:21 AM
There are 20 rd SS VEPR .308 Magazines. Next in line will be for the 7.62x54R VEPR. 5rd mags are the only option for the 54R flavor right now which is a bummer.

I'm going to ping Nelson at TWS about a rail option for either of the VEPR's. To me with the heavier profiled chromed barrel and heavier receiver, a higher cap mag and TWS dogleg would trump nearly any PSL currently available.

usmc1986
10-27-2011, 08:31 AM
I personally prefer .308 Galils... but those are more of a MBR AK and rare and expensive.

But reports I'm hearing from the range on .308 Saigas and Vepr in the sniper role sound encouraging.

Veprs haven't been made in quite a while, and are infrequent finds even on gunbroker.
Same with the mags and spare parts.

Molot is currently producing .308 VEPR Supers and 7.62x54R VEPRS check some of the usual importer/sales they're available.

bc45
10-27-2011, 09:36 AM
I have one vepr .308 and three saigas.
Vepr rules so I will wear out my saigas first

DogDoc
10-27-2011, 10:50 PM
:shocked1::shocked1::shocked1: Man, the fal and the socom are both twice the gun the Saiga is, and you can run them both very much like the ak if you want to. I've had two Saiga's, both very well built, and there's nothing great about them. Of the .308 rifles, the Saiga is the absolutelly the least desirable. If you want something better than what you have in .308 try an HK or PTR out, you'll never go back, and you will even like your ak's a little less.

I sold the Socom. It's a neat rifle but I couldn't really see the point of a .308 with a 16" barrel and forward-mounted red dot...at least not for the money. If I'm going to have a .308, ersatz assault rifle it might as well be a less expensive one, or, better yet an AK47. Mounting a real optic on a M1A is a bit of a pain. If it had been an 18" Scout I might have pursued it.

I'm keeping the FAL. It has a DSA railed dust cover so scoping isn't a problem. It also has an 18" barrel to avail itself of a bit more of the .308's potential without being over long. Just a better choice than the Socom if only one of the two were staying. The FAL is set up as a GPR with a Burris Fullfield 3X9 Ballistiplex on it.

I'm still quite fond of the PSL. I cut the barrel to 19", put on a good OST flash hider...also a bit of rail on the hand guard for a bipod. Next week I'll be putting on a TWS railed dust cover and a more powerful scope. Setting this one up more as a GSR with a more powerful scope than the FAL.

The VEPR is for sale (see "Stuff for Sale" thread). It's a nice shooter but, frankly, I like the PSL and FAL better. If it doesn't sell, I'll put a red dot on it and use it as a Super CQB rifle rather than scoping it (lots of folks in my clan...someone might as well have a thumpier assault rifle for penetrating serious cover). It can do what the Socom was doing for half the money.

I also bought a Rock River LAR-8 (AR-10). I've never owned an AR and thought I ought to acquaint myself with the system a bit. Seems like a good rifle. Has a 1 MoA guarantee out of the box and uses my FAL mags. I put a Burris Fullfield 3X9 Ballistiplex on it.

Doc

22mike
10-30-2011, 01:19 PM
I am interested in the super Vepr........ How much are they ???

Mervo
11-08-2011, 04:01 PM
I am interested in the super Vepr........ How much are they ???

I've seen them for 1500 and up. I was curious if anyone at WT was using one as a GSR???

Interestingly enough it seems that WT members love the Saiga 308 over the VEPR and PSL.... not sure what this means other than it makes my decision extremely difficult.

I have a bag of loot sitting around waiting for Gabe, Jim, or Mark to say one is the end-all-be-all to GSRs.... i"m still waiting. Oh, and money IS NOT AN OBJECT.

Gabe Suarez
11-08-2011, 05:51 PM
Well....here is my opinion.

PSLs can be really good or real pieces of crap and until you take it to the range you don't know which it is. You can get one and it will be 1.5 MOA out of the box and others will be 6 MOA guns until you spend the money to make them right. I have one that is a 1.5 but spent some cash to do it. And that said...it is still not nearly the rifle my FAL is.

Saigas. If they can get over the 8 round Russian magazine disease, or the sh*tty American hillbilly magazine disease, they would be fine. That you need to spend money to get them right in the first place is a PITA (thank you evil uncle). Mine was a 2 MOA rifle.

VEPRs. The 7.62x54R with a 5 round magazine is boring to me and unless the Wolf people import a rfeal magazine I have zero interest in it. The .308 version comes with a genuine 10 round magazine so it is more interesting to me. Moreover, noone need be saddled with throwback side mounts as the VEPRs use the same top cover as the rest of the AK family of rifles. Thus a TWS would be an easy installatrion.
The ones I handled are very well built and IF TSD was to make an AK sniper weapon, it would probably be based on the VEPR 308 before any of the other systems.

Mervo
11-12-2011, 09:01 AM
Well, as usual, Gabe blows my mind. Gabe is there any reason not to convert a VEPR to accept M14 mags?? I know Krebs does this, and it seems like a good idea (??) but I was curious if anyone knew of any drawbacks??

It looks like I'll be dropping coin on a VEPR .308 for a long-term project.

Salmonking
11-13-2011, 09:07 PM
I've seen the price of the Vepr. I'll stick with a converted Saiga or PSL.

daniel87
12-16-2011, 03:48 PM
old thread but id do a tsd ak gsr

saiga 20 inch brl

:drool::drool::drool:

DogDoc
12-16-2011, 04:02 PM
old thread but id do a tsd ak gsr

saiga 20 inch brl

:drool::drool::drool:

I've decided to stick with .308 or 7.62x54R for shooting beyond 400 yards. I looked at the .223 as a GSR too but in the end, I want a rifle that is still in its stride at 5-600 not gasping its last.

I have a FAL and a PSL and am content for now.

If 6.5 Grendel ammo ever gets affordable I reserve the right to change everything.

Doc

American Infidel
12-23-2011, 11:39 AM
For me it looks like a VEPR .308 would make a great GSR platform. They can be converted to accept M14/M1 mags. I have about 30 of the USGI M14 mags so that helps. The VEPR SUPER has a fluted Heavy barrel and are quite accurate from what I have seen. There are a few out there with synthetic stocks so I know a conversion can be done in that regards. A TWS rail mount would round out the rifle and set it up to recieve a nice Optics package. The controls are exactly the same as mine and the wifes primary weapons, SGL21 and SGL12. An AK platform with sub MOA capabilties with modern .308 ammo that you can find in EVERY gun store across America. What more could anyone want in a GSR platform?

American Infidel
12-23-2011, 01:14 PM
Heres a Super Vepr converted to a Synthetic stock. You would only need to have it converted to use M14 mags and its pretty much the best GSR made. In my opinion.19224

DogDoc
12-23-2011, 03:50 PM
Anyone know if someone is actually doing such mag conversions?

Doc

DogDoc
12-23-2011, 03:52 PM
Heres a Super Vepr converted to a Synthetic stock. You would only need to have it converted to use M14 mags and its pretty much the best GSR made. In my opinion.19224

I agree if the mag issue were resolved The VEPR would be a slam dunk in the GSR contest.

Doc

American Infidel
12-23-2011, 04:11 PM
Apparently you can take a M14 mag and add a tab to it. You then need to polish one rivet inside and its a done deal. I found this:

http://www.akfiles.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-49408

It is not difficult. No mods to the rifle other than polishing one rivet head. I will pick one of these Super VEPR up when they are back in stock mid 2012. Its worth a shot and seems like a very easy mod. I personally dont see a need for more than 10 rounds for a GSR/Sniper platform. But having 20 rounds or more as an option sure makes it pretty nice.

American Infidel
12-23-2011, 04:24 PM
Looks like a Super VEPR GSR build is in my near future!

Netpackrat
12-23-2011, 09:33 PM
Oh, now you've gone and done it... :popcorn:

American Infidel
12-28-2011, 10:20 AM
JMHO: I have used a VEPR Super for 7 years now as a long distance hunting rifle (up to 750 yards). It's topped with a Nightforce NXS 3.5-15x56 scope + Tenebraex ARD and consistently shoots sub MOA with home rolled ammo. As low as 1/4 MOA at 100 meters. This rifle is equipped with a custom match trigger and a BR Reflex T8 telescopic suppressor. This makes for extreme accuracy. It shoots far better with the suppressor than without. I also have modified the stock stock by milling 3 cooling vents on each side. A mirage band and suppressor sock is also in use. I also have NV equipment for this rifle. AFAIC this is the best shooting semi auto rifle I have EVER shot. I would NOT consider any other platform for a semi than the AK, not for a PSD weapon, nor for any other tactical application either, that's why I bought the VEPR Super (now heavily modified gas system, trigger, scope mount, and a lot more minor fiddling )
Currently I'm building a fiberglass stock for it since the wood effects the sub-MOA accuracy.


You'll find a pic of the rifle at my FB page: http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=2127323896452&set=a.1697520671640.2093487.1046550684&type=1
Best regards from a nowadays "nobody"

///Marc living in Arctic Norway


1/4" MOA people! That is as good as 99% of bolt action sniper rifles out there. I love the Silencer as well. Mark do you have any more pics?

Here is Marks picture of his VEPR SUPER that shoots 1/4 MOA at 100 meters.

19320

American Infidel
01-03-2012, 07:22 PM
I took the plunge into the Guerilla Sniper Rifle. I purchased up a VEPR .308. Not the Super VEPR but the standard VEPR. It has a two piece stock and looks more like a Dragonav. The rifle is used and has a scope. I am not sure what make of scope but will report back when I pick her up Thursday or Friday. I will also post some pictures at that time. I still plan on building up a Super VEPR but that will have to wait a bit.

American Infidel
01-03-2012, 07:47 PM
I found this picture of a VEPR .308 online. This is how mine looks or would look like with no scope attached.19500

American Infidel
01-04-2012, 04:18 PM
Here she is

http://i44.tinypic.com/a2umts.jpg

megawatt
01-08-2012, 09:32 PM
CSSPECS is now selling metal 5, 10, 20 round magazines for the Saiga .308, (15 capacity to come soon).
Weight of 12.3 oz for the 20 rounders, and at the same cost of the all plastic surefire magazines. I ordered a few to replace the plastic surefires I have been using for my rifle dynamics S308

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p310/joe800mw/guns/long%20guns/DSC_0076.jpg

Gabe Suarez
01-31-2012, 07:54 PM
Wouldn't it be nice if those magazines were an inch shorter, several ounce lighter, and used USGI replacement parts instead of a proprietary mag made by someone that can close up shop at a anytime?

What magazine did the original Galil use???

There is a far better answer gents.

chad newton
01-31-2012, 08:43 PM
Let me guess, modified m-14 mags????

Netpackrat
01-31-2012, 09:12 PM
If there is one thing that I've learned about buying things that are made up of parts, its that ANY supplier can close up shop at ANY time. So, if you are buying unit ABC that needs parts X, Y, and Z, in order to function, if you can't afford to buy X, Y, and Z that you need in sufficient quantity, then you can't afford to buy unit ABC. And usually when something I wanted to buy becomes No Longer Available, it's pretty rare that my reaction is "gee, glad I didn't buy any of those" as opposed to "wish I had bought those when I could" or "glad I've got mine."

FWIW, I bought a couple of the new "hillbilly" mags for my S-308, which I'll be testing once the weather turns more reasonable (along with my RMR Glock, etc. Winter sucks and this one more than usual). They may turn out to be crap when placed in service, but just based on initial impressions, his latest version is the equal (or better) in quality of any military grade magazine I've seen. Be nice if you guys could reconcile, but either way we'll win as consumers if there are two companies producing decent mags for the .308 AK. Maybe with competition the price will come down to where the plastic fantastic mags start to be threatened; even Billy Bob Bumpfire will often go with quality over crap if the price difference decreases. I realize that isn't the focus or even a goal, but it would still be a good thing.

barnetmill
01-31-2012, 09:58 PM
Problem with the Saiga magazine is they are constricted at the front and sort of cut out a bit. Something to do with securing a stronger lockup for the pressure of civilian .308 loads. I do not know if it is possible to readily convert any other 7.62x51 mag to it.
I have never seen the VEPR upclose and have no idea how its magazine is setup and if other mags can be more readily adapted to it. Relative to making/selling a quality magazine there is a bigger market for S12 mags than S308 or VEPR mags.

Netpackrat
01-31-2012, 11:18 PM
Relative to making/selling a quality magazine there is a bigger market for S12 mags than S308 or VEPR mags.

Maybe. I would expect the 12 gauge mag to be harder to make due to the shell's rim. IIRC, M-14 mags are the closest to fitting in a Saiga magwell, and some have converted them, but there was apparently some issue with the followers, loading them fully, feeding the first round, or some such. From what I read converting them to work in a VEPR is much more straightforward.

Gabe Suarez
02-01-2012, 06:33 AM
FWIW, I bought a couple of the new "hillbilly" mags for my S-308, which I'll be testing once the weather turns more reasonable (along with my RMR Glock, etc. Winter sucks and this one more than usual). They may turn out to be crap when placed in service, but just based on initial impressions, his latest version is the equal (or better) in quality of any military grade magazine I've seen. Be nice if you guys could reconcile, but either way we'll win as consumers if there are two companies producing decent mags for the .308 AK. Maybe with competition the price will come down to where the plastic fantastic mags start to be threatened; even Billy Bob Bumpfire will often go with quality over crap if the price difference decreases. I realize that isn't the focus or even a goal, but it would still be a good thing.

If the M1A or FAL only had a set of those hand made magazines, I would doubt very much those rifles would be popular at all. Equal or better than military grade? Really? Whose military? Somalias? Come on.

Listen...I bought samples of all the magazines available out there and I found them all lacking. So I did the same thing the Israelis did when the built the 308 Galil. I suggest doing some research. The Galil 308 magazine is 6" long...not 7" long. Is that a big deal? I think so since the G3 magazine, the FAL magazine and several other 308 20 round magazines are also 6" inches or shorter. All military magazines are also lighter. Not a factor to range hobbyists whose longest hike is to paste up their targets, but it is to all militaries and guerrilla forces that need to carry their kit for long treks. Funny how a heavy rifle gets chastised but we never hear aboiut the curse of heavy magazines.

Price will be what it will be and not known at this time, but I expect it will be the best price on realiable magazines on the market, our rifles will probably ship with a few of them, and I know it will be the ONLY magazine we guarantee with our rifles.

Gabe Suarez
02-01-2012, 06:39 AM
Problem with the Saiga magazine is they are constricted at the front and sort of cut out a bit. Something to do with securing a stronger lockup for the pressure of civilian .308 loads. I do not know if it is possible to readily convert any other 7.62x51 mag to it.
I have never seen the VEPR upclose and have no idea how its magazine is setup and if other mags can be more readily adapted to it. Relative to making/selling a quality magazine there is a bigger market for S12 mags than S308 or VEPR mags.

To elaborate....there are more Saiga 12s in public hands than there are S308s or Vepr 308s. However, the buying habits of that S12 market do not lend themselves to venture capital investments.

I was at SHOT recently and while I saw all manner of wonderful accessories for weapons, everything I saw for the Saiga 12 was cheap, plasticky, and obviously had price in mind before it was even built. I still have a Saiga 12 but it is not a platform that I want to invest any more time and money into. Sad, but that is that. I do have hopes for the AR12 and the very high dollar Vepr 12.

The S308 has way too many issues, and the magazine is too problematic to focus on either. That and the fact that it has been co-opted by the same crowd of fabricators that ruined the S-12. Unlike the 5.45 and 7.62x39 systems, these two have way too many proprietary things going on .

barnetmill
02-01-2012, 09:59 AM
To elaborate....there are more Saiga 12s in public hands than there are S308s or Vepr 308s. However, the buying habits of that S12 market do not lend themselves to venture capital investments.

I was at SHOT recently and while I saw all manner of wonderful accessories for weapons, everything I saw for the Saiga 12 was cheap, plasticky, and obviously had price in mind before it was even built. I still have a Saiga 12 but it is not a platform that I want to invest any more time and money into. Sad, but that is that. I do have hopes for the AR12 and the very high dollar Vepr 12.

..... .
I certainly understand wanting a suitable profit for your investment. I was not aware of the VEPR 12 and looked it up. The VEPR 12 can use Saiga Magazines.

Excerpt from VEPR 12 website: http://world.guns.ru/shotgun/rus/vepr-12-e.html It is worth to note that Vepr 12 shotguns can use both proprietary 8-round magazines and Saiga 12 (http://world.guns.ru/shotgun/rus/saiga-12-e.html) magazines, but Vepr magazines will not work in Saiga 12 (http://world.guns.ru/shotgun/rus/saiga-12-e.html).Then a decently made Saiga mag would fit both guns and you can kill two issues if not birds with one magazine that works for both. Anyway it is a thought and the practicality of it may or may not be there.

Netpackrat
02-01-2012, 01:27 PM
If the M1A or FAL only had a set of those hand made magazines, I would doubt very much those rifles would be popular at all. Equal or better than military grade? Really? Whose military? Somalias? Come on.

This is what he is making now, they are 6-3/4" long:

20097

I don't have any of his older ones to compare them to, unfortunately. He sold out his entire first run of the new mags within days, and is currently making more. As to length, I do recall reading an article where a guy described converting M14 magazines to work with his S308, and he had trouble feeding the first rounds from the top of a fully loaded magazine. There was also briefly a guy selling converted G3 magazines (I bought two, they were crap) and he was selling them limited to 17 rounds. So, there may be some Saiga .308 specific issue why it needs it's magazines to be slightly longer, which won't apply to the VEPR (or Galil). Dunno. There are a lot of issues that pertain specifically to the S.308 and I think you are correct to pursue the VEPR.

As to the Saiga 12, you are dead on with regard to the majority of that market, but that's not the whole market. Witness how anytime somebody brings a batch of Izzy 8's into the country, they sell out quickly, even at $130-150 each. So there's a demand for quality there, it's just hard to say how large it really is, since the supply has never come close to meeting it. You seem to be doing well catering to that subset of the AK rifle market that is willing to pay for quality, even though most of the market is just looking for cheap. So, I think it's premature to write off the entire S-12 market, just because most of them are cheap also.

Gabe Suarez
02-01-2012, 01:41 PM
Mine in bold


This is what he is making now, they are 6-3/4" long:

Those magazines are 6.9" long as I just measure it. That is substantially longer than any other 20 round 308 magazine. In fact, if you are going to go that long, it should be at least 25 rounds...or 30. Those magazines also weigh a whopping 12.8 ounces EMPTY!

Imagine a chest rig of five mags, fully loaded!!!

Compare that to the svelte TSD M14 conversion magazines at 5.5" long and a lean mean 7.7 ounces (almost half as heavy)

The Brand X magazine is also blued in a shiny blue finish like a friggin Colt Python, where as the TSD M14 conversion magazine is parkerized as a military magazine should be. Brand x is tops only in price...in everything else it is second best.

As to length, I do recall reading an article where a guy described converting M14 magazines to work with his S308, and he had trouble feeding the first rounds from the top of a fully loaded magazine. There was also briefly a guy selling converted G3 magazines (I bought two, they were crap) and he was selling them limited to 17 rounds. So, there may be some Saiga .308 specific issue why it needs it's magazines to be slightly longer, which won't apply to the VEPR (or Galil).

Well....1254 rounds thusfar through our prototypes..........

Dunno. There are a lot of issues that pertain specifically to the S.308 and I think you are correct to pursue the VEPR.

:crafty:

As to the Saiga 12, you are dead on with regard to the majority of that market, but that's not the whole market. Witness how anytime somebody brings a batch of Izzy 8's into the country, they sell out quickly, even at $130-150 each. So there's a demand for quality there, it's just hard to say how large it really is, since the supply has never come close to meeting it. You seem to be doing well catering to that subset of the AK rifle market that is willing to pay for quality, even though most of the market is just looking for cheap. So, I think it's premature to write off the entire S-12 market, just because most of them are cheap also.

Well...maybe you are right. I will keep it on the list

chad newton
02-01-2012, 02:06 PM
You are going to run out of ink with your ever growing lists.:)

Netpackrat
02-01-2012, 02:18 PM
Those magazines are 6.9" long as I just measure it. That is substantially longer than any other 20 round 308 magazine. In fact, if you are going to go that long, it should be at least 25 rounds...or 30. Those magazines also weigh a whopping 12.8 ounces EMPTY!

Imagine a chest rig of five mags, fully loaded!!!
Compare that to the svelte TSD M14 conversion magazines at 5.5" long and a lean mean 7.7 ounces (almost half as heavy)


Well, maybe I need to get my tape measure checked since I can't make mine measure more than 6.75" no matter how hard I squint my eyes, but arguing over .15" is probably silly. I don't have a scale handy so I can't check the actual magazines against the 12.3 oz they are claiming. If you bring a .308 AK magazine to market that is 5.5" long and 7.7 ounces I would indeed be interested.


The Brand X magazine is also blued in a shiny blue finish like a friggin Colt Python, where as the TSD M14 conversion magazine is parkerized as a military magazine should be. Brand x is tops only in price...in everything else it is second best.

I would have preferred a parked finish, but it's honestly not a huge concern to me. I can make the finish whatever I want it to be. You know what would be really cool, is if your magazines were based on something like CMI's stainless steel M-14 magazine body. Then you wouldn't really have to worry about metal finishing at all, just give it a light media blast to kill any reflection. If desired, refinish to match the rifle.

DogDoc
02-01-2012, 04:44 PM
Then a decently made Saiga mag would fit both guns and you can kill two issues if not birds with one magazine that works for both.

I should think one would be able to kill two birds with either the Saiga-12 or the VEPR-12. ;)

Doc

barnetmill
02-01-2012, 06:55 PM
I should think one would be able to kill two birds with either the Saiga-12 or the VEPR-12. ;)


Doc
It will kill two birds assuming you had reliable magazines.
I will keep my S12 since it is not my intentions to use it for anything especially rigorous and I will use it for "sporting" purpose where I previously used a shotgun. The reason is I want to train as much with the AK system as possible. The Ak-47 is my fighting rifle and I have not decided yet about what .308 semiauto I will use. I have a S.308, but do not have too much in it yet except for a few magazine and an after market stock. These include Csspec 15 and 20 round magazines.
I may buy a couple of expensive russian mags; time will tell. Right now my quest is for good optics for my selfdefense guns and training.

American Infidel
02-03-2012, 06:29 PM
Yes.

Not sure what Original Galil mags were. The cob webs have claimed that memory at the moment.

What is the answer. I am in need to know since I will be also obtaining a Super VEPR to use as my GSR. Ive purchased one CCspec mag so far but want to test it before I buy 10 more. I havent seen it yet in person since I am still out in the field. So what is the Better answer? I know it must be good. I hope its M14 mags converted or some such. I have a boat load of USGI spec M14 mags.

American Infidel
02-03-2012, 06:30 PM
Wouldn't it be nice if those magazines were an inch shorter, several ounce lighter, and used USGI replacement parts instead of a proprietary mag made by someone that can close up shop at a anytime?

What magazine did the original Galil use???

There is a far better answer gents.

Yes.

Not sure what Original Galil mags were. The cob webs have claimed that memory at the moment.

What is the answer. I am in need to know since I will be also obtaining a Super VEPR to use as my GSR. Ive purchased one CCspec mag so far but want to test it before I buy 10 more. I havent seen it yet in person since I am still out in the field. So what is the Better answer? I know it must be good. I hope its M14 mags converted or some such. I have a boat load of USGI spec M14 mags. (since you said it would us USGI replacment parts)

Gabe Suarez
02-03-2012, 08:05 PM
I would hold on to my rubles for a few weeks until you see what we have cooking for the vepr magazines-

Base Bleed
02-03-2012, 10:49 PM
I would hold on to my rubles for a few weeks until you see what we have cooking for the SAIGA magazines-

Fixed it for you.......? :sad2:.......No?......Durn :facepalm:

American Infidel
02-04-2012, 10:40 PM
I would hold on to my rubles for a few weeks until you see what we have cooking for the vepr magazines-

Rubles being stored away until further notice from the G man.

Housertl
02-06-2012, 09:37 AM
For those who have one of these fine rifles, does the VEPR 308 barrel have a taper to it in the same way that the Saiga 308 barrel does? I'm wondering if the TWS Handguard will work with the VEPR 308, or if MI or Ultimak is the only way to go. Trying to plan out my build for once the funds free up.

Thanks!

Topmaul
02-06-2012, 10:59 PM
I am seriouly considering a Vepr 308 myself I was going to go with a Saiga dIY conversion but I kind of what the quality.

jimdigriz
02-14-2012, 01:04 PM
For me it looks like a VEPR .308 would make a great GSR platform. They can be converted to accept M14/M1 mags. I have about 30 of the USGI M14 mags so that helps. The VEPR SUPER has a fluted Heavy barrel and are quite accurate from what I have seen. There are a few out there with synthetic stocks so I know a conversion can be done in that regards. A TWS rail mount would round out the rifle and set it up to recieve a nice Optics package.

It doesn't look to me like the rear sight block on the Super VEPR is the same as on a standard AK, so a TWS rail would probably not work on this rifle.

jimdigriz
02-14-2012, 01:06 PM
JMHO: I have used a VEPR Super for 7 years now as a long distance hunting rifle (up to 750 yards). It's topped with a Nightforce NXS 3.5-15x56 scope + Tenebraex ARD and consistently shoots sub MOA with home rolled ammo. As low as 1/4 MOA at 100 meters. This rifle is equipped with a custom match trigger and a BR Reflex T8 telescopic suppressor. This makes for extreme accuracy. It shoots far better with the suppressor than without. I also have modified the stock stock by milling 3 cooling vents on each side. A mirage band and suppressor sock is also in use. I also have NV equipment for this rifle. AFAIC this is the best shooting semi auto rifle I have EVER shot. I would NOT consider any other platform for a semi than the AK, not for a PSD weapon, nor for any other tactical application either, that's why I bought the VEPR Super (now heavily modified gas system, trigger, scope mount, and a lot more minor fiddling )
Currently I'm building a fiberglass stock for it since the wood effects the sub-MOA accuracy.


You'll find a pic of the rifle at my FB page: http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=2127323896452&set=a.1697520671640.2093487.1046550684&type=1
Best regards from a nowadays "nobody"

///Marc living in Arctic Norway

Marc, can a Super VEPR use a standard AK trigger group? Where did you obtain your custom match trigger?

Rafaga
02-14-2012, 11:29 PM
For those who have one of these fine rifles, does the VEPR 308 barrel have a taper to it in the same way that the Saiga 308 barrel does? I'm wondering if the TWS Handguard will work with the VEPR 308, or if MI or Ultimak is the only way to go. Trying to plan out my build for once the funds free up.

Thanks!

The VEPR 308 has a straight barrel. The TWS handguard will work with the VEPR. The SAIGA 308 is tapered and out of luck for now.

Veprmike
02-28-2012, 06:56 PM
Does anyone make a tactical /target synthetic(fiberglass) stock for the vepr HUNTER? I emailed wolf arms they said they are working on that and a "bunch of other stuff but it going to be a while before it comes to market"

Ne-waza
03-04-2012, 01:03 PM
In the .308 system, which Vepr do you guys prefer: 16" or 20"? I'm thinking about getting a 20" and chopping it to 18.5". Would I be screwing up a fine barrel in doing so, or is this a pretty routine job?

DogDoc
05-11-2012, 07:34 PM
Any competent gunsmith can cut the barrel and thread it for whatever muzzle device you want.