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View Full Version : I want an FN Five-Seven Clone



generalcarver
02-21-2011, 12:47 PM
The FN 5-7! That 5.7mm gun has really caught my eye in the last couple months. I've been doing a lot of reading off and on about it. With a 20 round mag and 30% the recoil of a 9mm you could really get a lot of accurate, quick follow up shots. I am really considering moving to it for my defensive pistol.

$1000 is too much for that gun. At least for this guy. So, I wish someone would make a clone or their own variant on the gun.

What about a Glock 5.7mm pistol? Now THAT'S a winning combination! I don't particularly care for the safety on the 5-7, I would much rather have a striker-fired, safe-action variant! I think I'm going to write a formal letter to Glock about this!

Any of you 9mm fans out there attracted to the 5.7mm? Any of you own a 5-7 and carry it at all? Feel free to share your thoughts!

generalcarver
02-21-2011, 12:58 PM
You should ask for a sub-compact single stack 9mm too :biggrin:.

You would buy one from Glock I'm taking it? Hmm. ok. I would not want less than 10 shots of 9mm in a gun for self defense, but to each his own.

bae
02-21-2011, 01:08 PM
If you decide to go this route, and you are a civilian without access to the "good" factory ammo, make sure to budget for decently-performing ammo from someone like Elite Ammunition.

The 5.7x28mm from a semi-auto pistol wouldn't be my first choice of a self-defense setup. If you do a search here on WT, you'll find some useful discussions on the topic.

generalcarver
02-21-2011, 01:15 PM
If you decide to go this route, and you are a civilian without access to the "good" factory ammo, make sure to budget for decently-performing ammo from someone like Elite Ammunition.

The 5.7x28mm from a semi-auto pistol wouldn't be my first choice of a self-defense setup. If you do a search here on WT, you'll find some useful discussions on the topic.

Yeah, stopping power is a consideration and something to take seriously when considering that round. Even as I created this threat, I am not 100% sold on it. However, a handgun in that cartridge is very controllable and magazine capacity is awesome in a full size gun. Those are the two aspects that are most appealing to me.

I've read online before that there were ballastics tests done with this round and that when it tumbles in flesh that it creates wound cavities similar to the 9mm. I'll see if I can find that and update this reply with it.

generalcarver
02-21-2011, 01:38 PM
It wouldn't be my primary. It would be my "rover".

Rover? I don't get it. Oh, car gun?

smince
02-21-2011, 02:13 PM
http://www.keltecweapons.com/uploaded_files/ourguns/gallery/b_15d179e7dd7ca525dc1c44dda16dcdf9PMR4.jpg

:wall:

Agonizer
02-21-2011, 02:20 PM
Yeah, stopping power is a consideration and something to take seriously when considering that round. Even as I created this threat, I am not 100% sold on it. However, a handgun in that cartridge is very controllable and magazine capacity is awesome in a full size gun. Those are the two aspects that are most appealing to me.

I've read online before that there were ballastics tests done with this round and that when it tumbles in flesh that it creates wound cavities similar to the 9mm. I'll see if I can find that and update this reply with it.

Then why not get a 9MM?

Glock 17, 18 rounds, about $500.

Chris Upchurch
02-21-2011, 02:29 PM
$1000 is too much for that gun. At least for this guy. So, I wish someone would make a clone or their own variant on the gun.

Have you priced 5.7 ammo? It runs about 130% more expensive than steel cased 9mm. If the gun is too pricey for you, I would think that the ammo would be as well.

smince
02-21-2011, 02:41 PM
They cloned everything but the round!Yes, but you can afford to shoot it...

generalcarver
02-21-2011, 05:02 PM
Then why not get a 9MM?

Glock 17, 18 rounds, about $500.

One thing the Five-Seven has over a 9mm is less recoil. It only has about 30% the recoil of a 9mm. That is the only reason. You can shoot faster and more accurate.

U know, also I would add, it does give you a weapon which you can hit easily and accurate with even out to 100+ yards.

smince
02-21-2011, 05:12 PM
U know, also I would add, it does give you a weapon which you can hit easily and accurate with even out to 100+ yards.So will a G17 with an RMR - for about the same initial price with cheaper practice ammo.

Sigfan22
02-21-2011, 07:08 PM
I like my FiveseveN a lot! That being said, I carry my Glock 19 or my 34. I carried the FN for a while, then I realized the limitations of the system (lacking penetration and affordable practice ammo).

Coolhand77
02-21-2011, 07:21 PM
How about a Glock 20 in 7.62x25? [project in the works]

EDELWEISS
02-21-2011, 07:40 PM
I'll admit some love for the the pistol and the carbine (but I still havent made the leap). I have some doubts about the round's ballistic potential; but if you think of it as an "icepick" that may put it in perspective. There are supposed to be some decent loadings for it besides the FN fodder, and as far as price for the ammo, how many of you carry cheap ball for "Social Work". The 20 and 30 round magazines are worth considering; but a G17 will have 19 rounds with a +2 and theres always the 33round mags if you can find them. If when the KelTec is proven, it might have some low threat potential.

Im looking forward to a x25 Glock.

Coolhand77
02-21-2011, 08:13 PM
First I gotta get Yarp's 21/20 RMR shipped to me. Playing with G20 mags while I wait. IF the base plate on the 20 mags are the same as the base plates on the 21 mags, I should be able to swap the main body from a Kriss mag onto a 20 stack. If I am right, the feed lips on the 20 might be tight enough for the x25, and the follower might tilt enough to allow more than the 30 rounds of .45 ACP in the Kriss mags.
Its all theoretical at the moment. Waiting on a pair of 20 mags I orders for experimental purposes. If I can make them work, then I get to get a spare barrel sleeved, drop in a compatable extractor claw and ...well if it works, I'll let you know.

jlbraun
02-21-2011, 08:34 PM
I have always maintained that the FiveseveN would be an excellent gun in a world where the NFA didn't exist - same gun, 3rd burst. :)

Coolhand77
02-21-2011, 09:12 PM
Absolutely.
Actually I was thinking about a "mini-Kriss" type design like that the other day. That dropping weight in the bolt assembly that retracts down behind the mag well using the space in a pistol grip instead, with a magazine in front like some sort of updated C96 design.

Hell, if it wernt for the NFA, I could see double barrel single shot, 20 Gauge derringers being popular for the self defense crowd...but I digress.

What you are talking about is the needle gun concept. Lots of little, fast, penetrating rounds, burped out in bursts, puncturing lots of holes in the target all at once. On some levels, it has potential, on others, not so much. Biggest problem with it catching on is a lack of select fire for people outside of LEO/MIL groups. Actually, were I going to do something like that, instead of the relatively short bullet in the 5.7, I would go for a long, BT projectile whos base almost covers the primer hole it fits so deep in the case...kinda like a miniturized version of the 5.45 underwater round [looks like a standard 5.45 but the bullet base goes all the way down to the base of the case]. Probably be a pain to spin stabilize though.

EDELWEISS
02-21-2011, 10:17 PM
I have always maintained that the FiveseveN would be an excellent gun in a world where the NFA didn't exist - same gun, 3rd burst. :)
COLT SCAMPhttp://www.militech.sownet.pl/pdw/_Colt_SCAMP(300)BW.jpg
Colt SCAMP

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


The Colt SCAMP (Small CAliber Machine Pistol) was conceived in 1969 as a replacement to the aging Colt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colt%27s_Manufacturing_Company) M1911A1 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1911) pistol.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colt_SCAMP#cite_note-SAR-0) The resulting weapon, embodied in a single SCAMP prototype built in 1971, was designed to give an individual operator a huge increase in firepower, with only a slight bump in weight and bulk. Both the pistol, and the unique ammunition developed for the pistol, were shopped unsuccessfully around to the military through 1974. Though people who tested the SCAMP were impressed, no official interest developed. An article in Small Arms Review magazine[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colt_SCAMP#cite_note-SAR-0) reports the prototype remains in the Colt archival vault.
Colt design engineer Henry A. Into recalled they knew they wanted a selective-fire weapon as the basis of their replacement for the M1911A1. Colt designers looked at smallest submachine guns of the day (including the Czech Škorpion vz. 61 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%A0korpion_vz._61), and Uzi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uzi_submachine_gun)) and tinkered with making full-auto versions of high-magazine-capacity pistols (such as the Browning Hi-Power (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Browning_Hi-Power)). They eventually settled on an in-house design, Into recalled, which was a gas-operated (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas-operated), locked-breech weapon with select-fire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective-fire) capability, including three-shot burst.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colt_SCAMP#cite_note-SAR-0) The SCAMP's magazine had a similar capacity to a submachine gun, of 27 rounds.
SCAMP was designed to be controllable and accurate to fire. As such, it featured grips patterned after those found on target pistols, a bore set low over the hand to lower the center of gravity, and a burst-fire mode to allow multiple shots without the problem of prolonged recoil.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colt_SCAMP#cite_note-SAR-0) There was also a recoil compensator built into the muzzle.
The requirement for accuracy led to the design of an original cartridge for the SCAMP. The .223-caliber rifle round (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.56_x_45_mm_NATO) was first suggested, but was found to be too hot for a handgun. The 9-mm. Parabellum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9_mm_Luger_Parabellum) round was also rejected for having a relatively heavy recoil, Into said in an interview. Into also rejected the .22 Winchester Magnum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.22_WMR), 5-mm. Remington, and .22 Hornet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.22_Hornet).[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colt_SCAMP#cite_note-SAR-0)
The design team eventually settled on the .221 Remington Fireball (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.221_Remington_Fireball) as the basis of their new cartridge, leading to the design of a .224-caliber centerfire cartridge known as the .22 SCAMP. This round was somewhat shorter and narrower than the Fireball. (For the dimensions of the .22 SCAMP, again see the Small Arms Review article, ibid.)
Unfortunately, despite positive reviews by the few military personnel who got to test the SCAMP, the ultimate response was the military was not looking to replace the M1911A1 pistol at the time.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colt_SCAMP#cite_note-SAR-0) Another source states the Army rejected the SCAMP in 1971 because it was already working on a parallel development, the 'Personal Defense Weapon'[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colt_SCAMP#cite_note-pdw-1). The Colt .45 ACP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.45_ACP) would not be replaced until 1985.
The SCAMP's cartridge was later rimmed so it could be used in revolvers, intended as a weapon for security forces. This also didn't sell.

Coolhand77
02-22-2011, 11:17 AM
Always liked that concept. I wonder how close the cartridge was to the 5.7 Johnson "Spitfire" [.30 carbine necked down to take .224 cal bullets..had a carbine in that caliber].

EDELWEISS
02-22-2011, 08:42 PM
The SCAMP was definetly ahead of its time, and even then came when nobody wanted to invest money into military needs. Like so many other projects that could have been:
http://world.guns.ru/userfiles/_thumbs/Images/handguns/usa/4/1287746524.jpg (http://world.guns.ru/userfiles/images/handguns/usa/4/1287746524.jpg)

http://www.genitron.com/Unique/MBA-13mm-Gyrojet-Pistol.jpg

Eventually something comes along that answers the need or fills the market. The Auto Mag was answered by the Desert Egale, not quite the same but a competitor. The FN57 is at least in concept a modern version of the SCAMP idea. Now if somebody would only make a modern GyroJet...

TerryGecko
02-24-2011, 09:13 AM
I CCW my FsN

High capacity
Low recoil
More accurate then most handgun calibers at greater distances
Civilian FN ammo defeats Level II BA and EA.com's stuff defeats Level III
Extremely reliable
Shares ammo with my PS90

Don't get me wrong, I have no delusions about the FsN. I understand why someone would want a Glock 19 over a FsN. Longer history of LE use, larger aftermarket, more readily available, etc... However, when you actually take a look at the facts, it's hard to disprove the FsN and PS90/P90 as a viable self defense option.

http://www.keltecweapons.com/our-guns/pistols/pmr-30/
Energy (40gr): 138ft-lbs 187J
Capacity: 30 rounds
Trigger pull: 4-6 lbs 17.8-26.7N


http://www.eliteammunition.net/catalog/item/7385614/7701264.htm
FiveseveN Pistol 4.75 inch barrel
40gr EA Protector 2,092fps-389 ft LBS

The numbers someone posted earlier were against a 22 magnum rifle with a 18" barrel.

I'm at least 25% more accurate with my FsN than my Glock 19. I would probably carry my Glock if I were as accurate because it's much smaller/easier to carry IWB. I don't feel under armed in any way carrying my FsN though and there are plenty of good concealment holsters out there for it.

Jack-O
02-24-2011, 11:51 AM
There is no doubt the the 5.7 has some significant cache to it. none. it's just flat out cool.

problem is (and this keeps getting rehashed) that there are few if any rounds avaialble for it that will penetrate to the minimum depth of 12" in 10% gel AND STILL EXPAND. this leads us to the ultimate conclusion that round for round a good 9mm like a Gold Dot will out perform the best 5.7 in pure tissue destruction.

Now. if you are dealing with soft body armored opponents then the 5.7 has some merit. The terminal ballistics are fairly dismal but they still beat the 9mm hands down if it gets stopped.

is it a general purpose round? NO
does it fill a neat little need? YES

TerryGecko
02-24-2011, 01:07 PM
There is no doubt the the 5.7 has some significant cache to it. none. it's just flat out cool.

problem is (and this keeps getting rehashed) that there are few if any rounds avaialble for it that will penetrate to the minimum depth of 12" in 10% gel AND STILL EXPAND. this leads us to the ultimate conclusion that round for round a good 9mm like a Gold Dot will out perform the best 5.7 in pure tissue destruction.

Now. if you are dealing with soft body armored opponents then the 5.7 has some merit. The terminal ballistics are fairly dismal but they still beat the 9mm hands down if it gets stopped.

is it a general purpose round? NO
does it fill a neat little need? YES

Elite Ammunition's Trident T6 will defeat level II BA and still penetrate 11 inches of ballistics gelatin.

Here is a pic from the side:
http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm274/TerryGecko/Trident25grPFP_03.jpg


Type: 30 grain Trident PFP
Application: Civilian/Law Enforcement / Military round designed to defeat multiple layers of body armor while generating substantial tissue damage. Projectile fragments into 2 or 3 sections. Capable of defeating 56 layers of Kevlar while still penetrating 9.0 inches of 10% ballistic gelatin or 6 inches of pork shoulder pulverizing shoulder bone.

They also make HP rounds which do yaw like any other quality HP (it doesn't expand as much obviously) but SS190 was manufactured to enter, turn, and tumble throughout the tissue.

I think you're correct that its less of an all purpose round than a 9mm for the general masses but I don't see any reason why someone who knows the strengths and weaknesses couldn't use one as such.

ImFromTheGovt
02-24-2011, 01:17 PM
I still wish FN would make a PS90 in 7.62x25mm

Tom Cornelius
02-24-2011, 03:50 PM
G-17 with RMR & 33rd. magazine = Good Stuff > 5.7http://www.warriortalk.com/images/icons/icon6.png