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All-in fighting
05-30-2005, 06:53 AM
gents, when going to the ground and having a guy jump on me [ scenario] training, i usually like to think of 5-7 seconds of fighting to get up and scan the area, any longer than that gives ample opportunity to get kicked in the head by his bud--do guys here have this drill at all and what is your time limit? i try to avoid using the guard or mount as these are conducive to staying for the duration[ however they are musts in learning ground control, balance , striking, wrestling, limb protection and overall grappling] ---as i fall , i try to keep ever cognizant of having that knee in between my opponent [ basics] so i can use face mushing, gouging , head twisting for gaining back top position to stand up ----training with a partner with head gear on, without, training your gouges on a " bob" your chokes on a" bob" as well are good too. grinding and short elbows, biting have always helped me in this scenarios---i assume [ bad word i know] that all grapplers on the list have a similiar mini-program like this, can i hear from others--ralph

DAVE A
05-30-2005, 07:48 AM
Hi Ralph

From my own experience and training having a time limit IS essential. I certainly train that way, and I'd agree with your time of between 5-7 seconds.

The way I look at it is that as soon as you feel yourself going down or your body hitting the floor your reaction must take over and strikes, gouges, bites and scratches have to start going in. Bring the head in - hurt him and roll him. I believe it must happen sooner rather than later. My strategy is not about the chess moves syndrome its about causing interference with the attacker so that I can regain my feet ASAP. The quicker the better - in training we do time this and you're correct most fights (if they are going to be won) will happen in seconds rather than a full minute.

I've had to instill this in myself over a period of time and it has paid dividends.

Cheers

Dave

Belisarius
05-30-2005, 08:21 AM
If the other guy is not a particularly good grappler (and/or doesn't have some extreme size and strength advantage), but did manage to take you down and end up on top, getting out should take about as much time as it takes to bridge, shrimp, or sweep. I guess how long that takes in elapsed time depends on a few things, but it is usually pretty quick.

You might be able to just punch/strike your way out, especially if he takes a bad side control position and you can knee his face or whatever, but it is kind of like trying to punch your way out when you have been backed up against a wall---hard to do when he can hit you back so much harder, and there are consequences if he manages, through training or just spontaneous good fortune, to elevate quickly and rotate his weight around and pin one of your arms.

Obviously you want to be careful how you actually stand back up, too ---everyone knows to keep a guarding arm and leg between you and your opponent as you get up, etc.

DAVE A
05-30-2005, 09:26 AM
Just another thought....

I once had an encounter with a Judo/Jui-Jitsu guy (no war stories promise :) ). We both went to ground and he was lucky enough to get me in the mount position :o but then he just stopped!!! He kind of froze as if he'd won a point in competition - like that was was the fight over. Well that was all I needed (see above descriptions - bites, hits, scratches, etc) before a headlock went on him.

It quickly turned around after that - within literally a matter of seconds. I don't know if this is relevant but its certainly a point that certain practioners are "instilled" to stop after they've won a point? But not much use for real. Don't know - any thoughts.

mudvillejon
05-30-2005, 06:45 PM
Typically doing standing work, either club Randori or SD, drills, we will go to the ground until an obvious break point. That is either the the guy on top gets a dominant position and finishes, or fails to, or he gets clear. Or the guy undernieth either foils the attempt of the guy on top to dominate or gets away.

Its not official, and there are no real guidelines. I think its just the idea that anything after this is either starting the tussle over or ground grappling. I'd say it usually falls withing your 7 or so seconds.

For SD the dominant position is usually a knee ride with control of an arm, or possibly a face down control of some kind. Both let you hit the guy or set something else up, or disengage and run. The bottom position which is defensive is still some variatio of the guard.

J

J Marwood
05-30-2005, 06:49 PM
I know this can happen. When I was drilling for the one-punch KO (my own bad understanding of Geoff Thompson's sniper option) I hot a guy and he didn't go down and I froze for a second or more - enough to get punched a fair few times.

I haven't been drilling a time limit to get to my feet but it sounds like a good idea. I wonder if getting other members of the class to get involved and start with some gentle kicks whilst one grapples may be useful?

DAVE A
05-30-2005, 10:27 PM
I know this can happen. When I was drilling for the one-punch KO (my own bad understanding of Geoff Thompson's sniper option) I hot a guy and he didn't go down and I froze for a second or more - enough to get punched a fair few times.

I haven't been drilling a time limit to get to my feet but it sounds like a good idea. I wonder if getting other members of the class to get involved and start with some gentle kicks whilst one grapples may be useful?


Hi James

When practising fighting from the ground we run a drill where the trainees are split into groups of four: one on the ground taking the kicks with rest putting them in. Ground guy has to defend against (and put in hits to the attackers for sixty seconds) before being "pounced" on by one of the gang. From there he has to escape as quickly as possible using all the skills mentioned above.

Even a gentle tap from someone shoes (let alone a small gang) can quickly get the adrenaline rising - good realistic scenario work.

Cheers

Dave

fm2
05-30-2005, 11:05 PM
James, I remember some kicks from the training weekend with SN. You'll have to say if they were gentle, I was busy trying to shoot with Gomez. :)

kenpotex
05-31-2005, 02:37 AM
Hi James

When practising fighting from the ground we run a drill where the trainees are split into groups of four: one on the ground taking the kicks with rest putting them in. Ground guy has to defend against (and put in hits to the attackers for sixty seconds) before being "pounced" on by one of the gang. From there he has to escape as quickly as possible using all the skills mentioned above.

Even a gentle tap from someone shoes (let alone a small gang) can quickly get the adrenaline rising - good realistic scenario work.

Cheers

DaveWe do some drills similar to this. Having stuff coming in from all directions definately messes with your head and gets the blood flowing.

I like the idea of the time limit, we do this kind of thing in some of our stand up and multiple attacker drills, but I've never tried it on the ground. Sounds like a good idea.

DAVE A
05-31-2005, 04:12 AM
We do some drills similar to this. Having stuff coming in from all directions definately messes with your head and gets the blood flowing.

I like the idea of the time limit, we do this kind of thing in some of our stand up and multiple attacker drills, but I've never tried it on the ground. Sounds like a good idea.


Hi Ken

We also noticed (and I think I mentioned this on a different thread) that the "confusion" factor disappears quite rapidly after a few go's of being the kick dummy on the floor and the guy becomes more at home and being ready to fight on the floor. Its basically a conditioning reflex - hit ground = start to fight. Start to fight = 10 second time limit, etc.

Cheers

Dave

mudvillejon
05-31-2005, 05:35 AM
when I think about when I have frozen, or when I see others freeze, it feels a certain way.

It is like you are cruising along on trained or natural reaction - then something happens and you mentally hit a wall and feel like you need to 'figure out' what to do next. I know people have more scientific explanations then this, but this is what it feels like to me.

The way I have approached it in training is by giving a guy just one thing to do at first. In standing SD, it was head hunting. Just grab the guy by the face/neck/throat/head.

It was a good way to fight the freeze, but its just for one kind of scenario. Getting knocked down is another. Knocking the other guy down is a third. I still think that the 'do one thing' approach is the right place to start.

In terms of getting knocked down the one thing I thing is to get your legs between you and the BG. In terms of being on top, maintaining control of a limb and getting your weight onto the BG while remaining on your feet is your initial success criteria.

After the one thing, you can get into elaboration. For example, after getting guys to orient and reorient on the head, we get into what to do to a head once you have it - strikes and gouges etc., and how to hack down someone's guard to get to the head, or use low kick snad knees as a secondary target. All stuff you guys are already doing and teaching.

I think its the same on the ground. First the most basic positions and strategies. That fights the freeze. You can build from there.

J

J Marwood
05-31-2005, 10:59 AM
James, I remember some kicks from the training weekend with SN. You'll have to say if they were gentle, I was busy trying to shoot with Gomez. :)

I remember those - seemed to be almost gentle :)

DAVE A - Soundslike what I had in mind. I'll see if I can get some of this in training tonight.

DAVE A
05-31-2005, 12:01 PM
DAVE A - Soundslike what I had in mind. I'll see if I can get some of this in training tonight.

Good one James. Lets us know how you get on

Dave

J Marwood
05-31-2005, 03:25 PM
Got to do a couple of rounds of this tonight - very different! Each time I was trying to regain my feet when the kicking started (after 10 seconds). I'll do more at the weekend (for some reason I had no problem getting any of my training partners to volunteer to be the kicker :confused: )

fm2
05-31-2005, 05:28 PM
Nice to have accommodating training partners, as long as they don't enjoy it too much. :D

BladeMaster
05-31-2005, 06:16 PM
Back to the "freezing" moment...I believe it's fight like you train conditioning. The idea of short burst training till the guy is "out" cold and then stop,get up (scan on the way up) fight the next guy or get outta Dodge should be practiced as well. Wrestlers are notorious for their not being able to apply finnishing strikes in a real fight because they don't practice outside of the mat rules. Gouge-jitsu at lightening speed has saved my ass on 2 occassions when the opponent was calculation the damage or his next strike. Stay Safe.