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Vig Creed
12-12-2003, 03:29 PM
You and a buddy are driving along a desterted road in your car when you are suddenly run off the road by strangers in another car. The other car immediately stops and the driver and passenger exit their vehicle, one on each side.

You are stuck in the ditch right behind them, so you and your buddy exit your car and approach the strangers to see what their problem is. You approach the stranger on the drivers side of their car, your buddy approaches the stranger on the passenger side. This results in their car being between you and your buddy.

Up until now you haven't felt too worried, because you and your buddy are both armed, and legally carrying concealed.

The strangers immediately launch into a heated argument with the two of you, during which it becomes obvious they are career criminals, who are high on drugs, and have mistaken you for cops who previously arrested them on narcotics charges.

Suddenly the passenger produces a gun and has your buddy at gunpoint on the other side of their car. You react instantly by drawing your gun, so that you have the unarmed driver at gunpoint on your side of their car. The result is an armed stand-off, with their car in the middle!

Both dopers are screaming threats and demanding that you surrender your gun immediately or your buddy will be killed. You can tell they mean it. Your buddy can tell they mean it too, and is pleading with you to do as they say.

What do you do?

:D creed :D

Pale Horse
12-12-2003, 04:09 PM
Since these guys are high on something they are not thinking properly. If they already think we are cops and have run us off the road and carrying illegally then they are looking to do bodily harm to my buddy and me. It also seems that they are not in a rational state of mind nor are they in the mood for talking, but fighting. So that being the case. Here is what I would do.

I am going to assume that both guys are armed because you never know and its better to be wrong in this case than to be sorry and in the ground. Since you did not mention if I can see over the car I am going to answer this way. I would step back until I could draw a bead on the guy that has a weapon out and press on him if he did not take his weapon off my buddy. My reason behind stepping back is not to leave my buddy or abandon him its to get the other dirt bags weapon off him and on me so my buddy can draw his weapon. Also one more reason with the stepping back is keeping both dirt bags in my field of view. Dont think that I would not try to talk them down from it, but there is a time to shoot and a time to talk. It seems from what you have already told us that all the words have been said.

Given the situation you put out that is how I would handle it. Having read about people on drugs and known a few, I would not want to give them a chance to bag my buddy and me for the sake of mistaken identy.

Steve
12-12-2003, 07:17 PM
I would create distance between me and unarmed idiot, use my vehicle as cover and steady rest order bg2 to drop weapon and then if he doesnt do what is needed, this is also a good set up for some of those team tactics you and your carry buddy should be practicing! also why advance on them ! keep distance and disengage from the agument asap!

Texas Gunman
12-12-2003, 07:56 PM
I'll be politically correct and call 911 like a good boy. :D
If my life is threating, I would do what needed.

TG

DaveJames
12-12-2003, 10:49 PM
Very simple, you drew in responce to him drawing on your buddy, You drew so now shoot him died right now and then focus back on bg-2, which by now will either started to run off or draw his weapon were by you immediately shoot him died period. They have already shown the willingness to use lethal force to harm you, both by car and produce weapon, you either take it to them or die yourselves, its the way I look at it any way.

B0486
12-13-2003, 05:26 AM
I'm curious,

Do you think if you draw and fire while your friend is being "covered" by the BG's gun that he will not convulse and pull the trigger potentially killing your friend in the process?

If you have him covered, he can be had anytime. Prudence, quick thinking and doing something to get the gun off your friend for a split second may be the better option, all the while keeping him covered.

If he kills your friend, he goes too. If you shoot and he kills your friend in the process of expiring, that would be bad.

Brownie

Steve
12-13-2003, 08:47 AM
thats why me and the group of others i work and our carry with have practiced this wiht airsoft and paper but we also have a code owrd touse if in the event we are going to break the shot so they can move or duck, fake a heart attack whatever

Anthony
12-13-2003, 02:01 PM
A good one Creed.
FWIW - here is different from the US, I would shoot my BG ( the driver ) in the face/head, hoping to drop him with the shot, - very likely at the close range. This shot hopefully would distract the second BG enough and signal my buddy to MOVE ! Leap to the side, drop to the ground, ANYTHING to get out of the other BGs line of sight/aim. My buddy would draw at the same time, giving the other BG two armed oponents. Hopefully we'll prevail over the second.
Hand over my gun ? To be executed ? NEVER !
Regards,
Anthony.

billcameron
12-13-2003, 04:10 PM
From a survival standpoint agree with Anthony. Don't know how it would play in the court however. Since you have gun pointed at driver ("unarmed BG") it doesn't take much time to shoot him and move on to armed BG. Plus I think "armed BG" will be waiting for you to either drop your gun or move on him. The shot may surprise "armed BG" to point he takes a split second to try and figure things out - I don't know if this is considered getting in his loop or not. Also last thing I want is "unarmed BG" in front of me to make a grab or become an "armed BG" since I have not had time to search him.

Naturally, the GG's went about things all wrong and should have maintained distance and let BG's come to them. An engine block provides good cover.

Anthony
12-13-2003, 04:43 PM
From a survival standpoint agree with Anthony. Don't know how it would play in the court however. Since you have gun pointed at driver ("unarmed BG") it doesn't take much time to shoot him and move on to armed BG. Plus I think "armed BG" will be waiting for you to either drop your gun or move on him. The shot may surprise "armed BG" to point he takes a split second to try and figure things out - I don't know if this is considered getting in his loop or not. Also last thing I want is "unarmed BG" in front of me to make a grab or become an "armed BG" since I have not had time to search him.

Naturally, the GG's went about things all wrong and should have maintained distance and let BG's come to them. An engine block provides good cover.

Thanks Bill.
The part about the courts was exactly why I said at the beginning that our situation here is different from yours. Creed stated it was a 'deserted road'. Here, after resolving the situation, - we'd simply drive off !

Agree ABSOLUTLY with your last paragraph. Let's look at this now. You've been driven off the road. You're in a ditch. A deserted road at that. You're both legally armed !?
Get out the car, draw your weapons, and take up defensive positions ! When the BGs realise that they are not dealing with 'sheep' they leave.
Then you resolve the 'car in a ditch' problem, and go home. - ALIVE !

Regards,
Anthony.

billcameron
12-13-2003, 07:18 PM
I am surprised that no one has answered that they would take the other guy hostage? Or at the very least place him between the bad guys angle of fire to you and allow him to be your shield while he hands over their car keys to the car that is not stuck in the ditch. While you make up your mind as to when to shoot the bad guy with the gun on your friend....

David,

Interesting alternative. I see two downsides: 1. I may have to get closer to "unarmed BG" . This may not be as big a downside for highly trained man, which I am not. 2. I don't think there is much honor or caring among BG's - at least I don't want to depend on it. A hostage is no good, except as a shield, unless his life has value to your opponent ie "armed BG" Also concerned the longer I wait the more the "armed BG" will think exactly that- why should I care about my " fellow BG" and then start shooting. I still think he who starts shooting first has best chance to survive.

Or put another way if I shoot "unarmed BG" in front of me then "armed BG" has to process information and decide whether to shoot "unarmed GG" in front of him or be more concerned about me who will be trying to shoot him. If I wait and let him shoot first roles are reversed.

billcameron
12-13-2003, 07:46 PM
Bill,
1. you need not get any closer to them and can actually do all that I have suggested from your pre-conceived safer distance.
2. it eliminates the ability of the hostage taker to shoot you as he will have to shoot through his friend.
3. it removes you from the "food: mentality that allowed you to be taken in the first place and it forces the bad guys to operate in an entirely unplanned for mental response loop of their own as they have now encountered what has turned out to be a larger predator than they expected with two of you armed and only one of them armed, it is now only a matter of second for you friend to react.
4. it eliminates the ability of the bad guys to leave now or to take your friend somewhere else while you stand there and let him be driven away.

David,

There are some unknowns here that concern me. 1. yes nice to get "unarmed BG" between me and "armed BG" But can I do this easily by just moving? Maybe the "unarmed BG" will make a grab for me or just drop down and assume the fetal position behind the wheel well and yell "shoot" 2. Where in fact are the car keys? In the "unarmed BG" pocket. Should I tell him to reach for them or should I take them out of his pocket. If he reachs for them it may not be keys he comes out with. If I reach in his pocket I am close and one hand is not very useful. Car keys could be in ignition. And most importantly what will "armed BG" do when I ask for car keys?

Not saying your idea does not have merit, just playing devils advocate. But still in this situation with drugged up crazies who probably place low value both on their and their fellow BG lives I worry that it will ultimately end in shooting situation and I hate to lose initiative.

DaveJames
12-13-2003, 09:18 PM
I like thinking post and this one is working overtime, I was trained to take out the most deadly threat, and that would be the BG with the weapon drawn,I'll worry about the other guy in a minute or so, as it was posted the GG, have F***ed up royal to began with, they are out of their car, in front of it argueing with BG's no weapons shown, so they/you are behind the curve again, I don't want to play the game of I have one now drop yours it never works that way. As soon as the one draws on my buddy he is dead, The only thing going for him and me is they don't know we have weapons.Takeing one hostage is out of the question, they are high on what god knows, I don't want to be with in arms reach of either one.

Sorry about being a little testie on the early post, was just venting due to being ruffed up the other night

Steve Camp
12-14-2003, 12:49 AM
Some cliches:
o action always beats reaction
o sieze the day / sieze the moment / sieze the initiative
o be aggressive

Do these "cliches" work because you are short circuiting your opponents OODA loop... in essence, getting inside his loop and forcing him to react to you... and since "action always beats reaction"...

If I may, I believe David Difabio's solution works, not because you are taking unarmed BG hostage, but because you are doing something completely unexpected, which short circuits both BGs OODA loops, but in particular, the armed BGs OODA loop is forced all the way back to the first "O" -- Orient... he now has to orient himself to the fact that you have moved behind his buddy, and he no longer has a clean shot at you.

I am not really taking unarmed BG as a hostage, I am simply using him as COVER! I now have the option to give a verbal command to the armed BG to "DROP YOUR WEAPON!" If he doesn't comply IMMEDIATELY... remember all those "head shots" that have been discussed in the "Armed Defense" section? Well... shoot the armed BG in the head... (I assume, based on the description given by Vig Creed, that if I could not see armed BG because of the height of the vehicle, he would have so stated...)

Since your unexpected action has forced the armed BG back to the "Orient" phase in the OODA (orient observe decide act) loop... you have now given your buddy an opportunity to take his own action: move OFF LINE and DRAW!

I believe the reason Anthony's suggestion to just shoot unarmed BG right away... is that it is also unexpected, and will force the armed BG to digest the new information -- and hence, force him back to the "Orient" phase.... so immediately after shooting the unarmed BG, turn and shoot the armed BG IMMEDIATELY... as the time for talking has apparently long gone.

I think the first suggested response... turn and cover the armed BG right away, may work as he now has to observe that you are covering him. You may opt to give him the verbal command to "DROP YOUR WEAPON NOW!" and drop him with a head shot if he hesitates at all, or simply drop him right away as soon as your front sight is on his face.

The problem with this last response is that your situation starts to deteriorate if the BG immediately, or simultaneously, covers you with his weapon. Then you are both pointing at each other and the first one to shoot wins... right? Well, I'd hate to shoot him only to have him get off a shot before he stops functioning...

Dave's solution has the elegance of using the armed BG as cover, incorporates movement to put the unarmed BG between the two of you...so you are screwing up the armed BGs firing solution two fold... he has a moving target, and a target behind cover, oh, and maybe he will realize the intervening cover is his buddy, maybe not... but that is just an added bonus... You've really short circuited his OODA loop, and the initiative is yours. I think I'd just take out the armed BG as soon as I have a firing solution... unless he suddenly wises up and drops his weapon.

David Difabio... am I interpreting your "solution" correctly -- as to why it works, etc?

LFW
12-14-2003, 03:39 AM
I think the best thing to do would be to simply shoot, or at least shoot at, the armed BG. He is the most immediate threat and since he has a gun in his hand, he is also your only legal target. Even if you miss him, the distraction would give your friend a chance to move to cover and access his own weapon. We don't know if the second BG has a gun or not, but as soon as you take your shot, or shots, at armed BG, you need to quickly return your attention to the one in front of you. I don't think any talking is needed, or should be considered in this situation--once BG #1 produced a gun the need for talking ended.--Leigh

B0486
12-14-2003, 11:12 AM
I'm not going to shoot the unarmed BG first unless he makes a furtive motion which I may interpret as threatening me.

I don't see anything mentioned about their verbalizing anything which I'm sure would be happening. This can also have an effect on the actions taken and outcome.

Is the unarmed BG just sitting there behind the wheel? Are they both yelling commands, threats?

Not stated so far, but you be assured there will be conversation of some kind which will lead to various responses.

Brownie

Anthony
12-14-2003, 12:52 PM
Steve, you are correct that my reaction is to 'gain the surprise' !
To those who would aim & shoot the armed BG first, I have to ask...........from what I understand, the BG near you is NEAR you. At the most, a couple of yards. ( I could be wrong here, - it's not my scenario.)
If you were in 'his' position, within 3 yards, and the GG TURNED away from you to shoot your freind ? I would be on the GG in a second ! I know how your laws work, but really, are you going to try to shoot an armed BG, while another BG ( we don't know for sure if he is unarmed ) is at the most a second AWAY !
Shoot him down first PLEASE !

I liked David DiFabios option. Would certainly get their attention. If opted for, one has to be ABSOLUTELY ready to drop the 'unarmed BG' at the slightest sign of resistance/non-compliance of commands etc, and then go on to the other BG with absolute aggression.

Drugged up BGs don't reason very well, - if at all.
Remember that. Keep safe all.
Regards,
Anthony.

DaveJames
12-14-2003, 01:22 PM
As we all know, every thing is fluid, if I have been sucked into 3 ft of the BG, and his partner draws, they he is gone first, and then the 2BG, I still will not play the hostage thing.Hopefully by me shooting the 1st one my buddy will have a window to shoot the other, boy this one could drive younuts with the what fors, and ifs

VaughnT
12-14-2003, 05:43 PM
Gotta agree with Anthony on this one. My first cerebral response was to drop the driver as he is closest to me and, I hope, the shot would distract the passenger. It's entirely conceivable that the report from my shot would cause him to swing the weapon my way, either I drop him or my partner drops him.

As to this not playing out well in court, that's a very distant afterthought. There would be no way to prove the driver wasn't armed at the time of the shooting and I could always claim that I thought I saw him reaching for his waistband. Remember that they have already demonstrated a willingness to use firearms in the commision of a crime and you have no reason to believe the driver isn't armed....only that he hasn't produced the weapon yet.

I wouldn't have approached the car in the first place, but if I had, this is how I would play the match.

Vig Creed
12-15-2003, 07:08 AM
This scenario is a take-off on the famous real-life "Onion Fields" case, where two cops were involved in an almost identical "stand-off" situation with two BG's. In that case the cop with his gun drawn surrendered his weapon in order to "save" his fellow officer.

This resulted in both cops being taken prisoner, driven to the farmland boonies (onion fields) by the BG's, where the officer who surrendered his gun to save his buddy was executed. The other officer immediately fled on foot and dodged bullets and BG's all night and ended up alive, but a mental case.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

In the subject scenario, I agree with those who would shoot the up-close, apparently unarmed driver first. If you instead try to shoot the farther away, more difficult to hit BG on the other side of the car first, the driver could physically attack/tackle/take you to the ground, or draw a concealed gun and shoot, while your attention was diverted.

If, on the other hand, you shoot the up-close easy target first, you only have one BG to worry about instead of two.

Your buddy? He is on his own until you can get around to his side of the car. Hopefully he will react appropriately and engage and/or take out the 2nd BG. If not, tough luck. He shouldn't have allowed the BG to get the drop on him.

Court? You have to survive first in order to get to court. Worry about court later.

There are no totally right or wrong answers here, just differing opinions. Except.......that I personally would never surrender my weapon for any reason. The "Onion Fields" cop surrendered his gun, and ended up dead.

creed

MTS
12-15-2003, 10:50 AM
This scenario is a take-off on the famous real-life "Onion Fields" case, where two cops were involved in an almost identical "stand-off" situtaion with two BG's. In that case the cop with his gun drawn surrendered his weapon in order to "save" his fellow officer.

The result was both cops being taken prisoner, driven to the boonies (onion fields) by the BG's, where the officer who surrendered his gun to save his buddy was executed. The other officer ran and dodged bullets and BG's all night and ended up alive, but a mental case.

The movie is now out on DVD with a good documentary about the incident.

FWIW when the abduction scene was filmed they used the actual location that Powell and Smith abducted Officers Campbell and Hettinger(SP?) from.

Eric
12-18-2003, 05:40 PM
If these guys are willing to go after off-duty cops, their intent is to kill us anyway, no matter what. There is little choice but to react accordingly.

I'd start talking to the passenger to get his attention in hopes of breaking his sight alignment. If he's already high, its probably off already. Once I'm sure I have his attention, I drop him like a bad habit. The idea being that surprise, along with distraction, will prevent him from getting a good shot off before he drops. If he's really high/drunk, his reaction time will be severly impared and he won't get the shot off at all.

Hopefully when my shot breaks, my buddy will have the place of mind to drop to the floor or otherwise evade. If not, the broken sight alignment will probably ensure he doesn't get hit.

The driver then has a choice: surrender or die.

billcameron
12-18-2003, 05:51 PM
Eric's comment about sight alinement raises an important question. Is the BG holding his handgun in "homeboy style"? (I know birdman has special sights for "homeboy style" shooters.) But seriously I think your odds would be a lot better with an adversary holding his weapon in this manner.

edited: For those of you who don't remember birdman and his sights here is link. Some people and I think that included Sen Diane Feinstein , who has a pistol permit, took birdman seriously.

http://www.birdman.org/products/homeboy1.htm

MTS
12-18-2003, 06:08 PM
Eric,

The officers were in fact on-duty in plain clothes driving an unmarked vehicle.

They made a traffic stop on the suspect vehicle in order to check out the two subjects inside.

The vehicle driver, Powell, took Officer Campbell hostage and Officer Hettinger on the passenger side surrendered his weapon to the passenger, Smith, in an attempt to save his partners life.

Vig Creed,

Actually the officer (Hettinger) who surrendered his weapon lived. It was the officer (Campbell) who was initially taken hostage who was killed.

Vig Creed
12-19-2003, 08:11 AM
Mark,

It has been about 15 years since I read "The Onion Fields" book. I'll try to find a copy and refresh my memory.

creed

MTS
12-19-2003, 09:52 AM
Vig Creed,

As I said the movie is out on DVD now is worth at least a rental for the documentary alone.

Anthony
08-14-2005, 01:03 PM
scenarios, on this Forum.
So:
I thought I'd bring it back to life :)
For the new members to read and comment on.
There are some great 'old' threads that we shouldn't forget/ignore.
Regards,
Anthony.

InTheBlack
08-15-2005, 10:25 PM
Some people are making this way too complicated.

"Unarmed" is acting in concert with "armed" to threaten both your lives and between them they have motive, oppotunity and means. He is close enough to attack you, if you take your muzzle off of him. Tueller Drill, anyone?

Shoot him and immediately shoot the other one.

& yu both heard him yell "I'm gonna kill you now you #*(*&$#*&" just before you shot him, right?

TravisABQ
08-15-2005, 11:48 PM
Anthony, I'm glad to see you drag back this scenario.

I have to concur with your original response of
maintaining distance, and since they ran you off the
road, drawing weapons so the bad guys go away.

If I got dumb and we got close to BGs and BG 2 draws
on my buddy, I'm thinking a certain approach...

My buddy has not drawn, BG 1 (driver has not drawn
any weapon yet) BG 2 has gun on my buddy.

Shooting BG2 with gun risks him shooting my buddy,
that's bad.

I think I'd shoot the driver. Why? he's there... :D
He's with the armed man, he MAY be armed... he's the
driver, and he may have the only keys! ..... but mainly
I'm hoping that BG2 will be freaked out long enough for
my buddy to grapple him, disarm him, draw and shoot....
or make space and give me chance to shoot him.

Plan A: don't get close.

--Travis--

Armor
08-16-2005, 03:46 AM
pop the driver, hope your buddy can get away thanks to the passenger's confused state, try shooting the passenger as fast as possibly (except if your buddy gets physical, then i'd run around the car and resolve it from up close, by shooting the bg at point blank (if my partner's not compromised) or knocking him down)

Guantes
08-16-2005, 09:32 AM
When I went sworn, shortly (2yrs) after this (Onion Field) incident it was a major topic of discussion in general and b/t partners in particular.
The killing of the officer (won't try to keep the names straight), after their surrender, was mainly due to misinterpretation of the law by the BGs and if they would face the death penalty.

A number of things came out of the incident, two of which were, most officers decided they would not give up their guns and most began carrying BUGs.

This was usually the first topic that came up when two new partners began working together. The most likely anticipated scenario was that on the vehicle approach of a single suspect, he would surreptitously get the drop on the approaching officer and have him (the officer) have his partner come around to the drivers window unaware of the danger. The popular response was a signal from the covered officer, like calling his partner by his (the covered officer's) name. The response was usually forthcoming in two possibilities. The partner would open fire and it would be up to the covered officer to drop, evade, etc. The other would leave initiation up to the covered officer. When he dropped, the partner would open fire. In any case it was almost always undrstood that the backup officer would do everything possible to help his partner, but would not give up his gun. Now on to this scenario.

First, forced off the road by another vehicle you have an adw with a vehicle with you and your partner as victims. This indicates covering the other guys from the cover of the doors of your vehicle. But that didn't happen,.....so
I would do everything I could to help my partner but, he knows that I would not give up my gun. I would not shoot the driver unless he made a furtive movement, but I would not be above pistol whipping him to take him out of the action so I could help my partner. I would attempt a shot as soon as possible on the one covering my partner but, because of the amount of variables, follow up action would be determined by the situation, with the goal being neutralization of the perp without injury to my partner. The ultimate responsibility is on my partner as he is the one who let himself be taken hostage.

kenpotex
08-17-2005, 03:25 AM
Interesting (and scary) scenario. I've enjoyed reading the replies and have thought about it for a couple of days. I think what I would do is immediately shoot the driver. Since I've already got him covered, it shouldn't be too hard to hit him with one or two rounds that will take him out of the equation. At this point I would immediately start unloading on the other guy hopefully dropping him but at least giving my buddy time to hit the ground, or move off-angle and deploy his weapon.

My logic is that even if "my guy" isn't displaying a weapon, it isn't illogical to assume that he has one. Then there's the fact that he is obviously a willing participant. By taking him out first, not only do I eliminate the chance that he will rush me when I target his partner; I'm probably also messing with the gunman's OODA loop because he probably expects me to either comply by dropping my weapon, or to try to target him. Not to drop his buddy "in cold blood."

Don't know if I'm right or wrong, that's just my take on the scenario.

InTheBlack
08-17-2005, 03:35 AM
>>>
adw with a vehicle
>>>

Huh?

Also-- there's no way for anyone who wasn't there to figure out which perp was targeted with the first bullets.

TravisABQ
08-17-2005, 04:10 AM
Interesting (and scary) scenario. I've enjoyed reading the replies and have thought about it for a couple of days. I think what I would do is immediately shoot the driver. Since I've already got him covered, it shouldn't be too hard to hit him with one or two rounds that will take him out of the equation. At this point I would immediately start unloading on the other guy hopefully dropping him but at least giving my buddy time to hit the ground, or move off-angle and deploy his weapon.

My logic is that even if "my guy" isn't displaying a weapon, it isn't illogical to assume that he has one. Then there's the fact that he is obviously a willing participant. By taking him out first, not only do I eliminate the chance that he will rush me when I target his partner; I'm probably also messing with the gunman's OODA loop because he probably expects me to either comply by dropping my weapon, or to try to target him. Not to drop his buddy "in cold blood."

Don't know if I'm right or wrong, that's just my take on the scenario.


Exactly Ken That is my logic. Also I figure that they could be brothers, or cousins... but even if not, the second I kill the non-visibly-armed guy, the other one is on the hook for felony murder. That has got to be good for the time to take a sighted shot on his right eye.

--Travis--

Guantes
08-17-2005, 08:23 AM
ITB,
ADW = Assault W/Deadly Weapon
The forcing off the road of your vehicle with another vehicle could be considered in this catagory.

bookman
08-17-2005, 10:40 AM
BG's are going to be "attended to" in this order....Driver immediately shot high center mass, passenger w/weapon engaged immediately after. My partner and I have worked out this scenario and he will duck and move to get out of the passenger's sight line while I shoot. Partner will also draw and provide backup to my shots. I will worry about legality later, I will live today!!

AKA_Caleb
08-17-2005, 06:37 PM
I will worry about legality later, I will live today!!

Amen. I totally agree

j_conway
08-17-2005, 07:18 PM
Do you think if you draw and fire while your friend is being "covered" by the BG's gun that he will not convulse and pull the trigger potentially killing your friend in the process?

Does this convulsion happen? What if a head shot is successful, do you still get the convulsion?

Guantes
08-17-2005, 07:26 PM
A proper CNS "apricot" shot eleminates the convulsions.

AKA_Caleb
08-17-2005, 07:28 PM
Whats a CNS "apricot" shot???

Guantes
08-17-2005, 08:50 PM
AKA Caleb,
The junction of the brain and brainstem referred to by snipers as "the apricot" is a target that when hit by a sufficient round eleminates any intentional or reflexive physical action.

j_conway
08-17-2005, 09:59 PM
Guantes, this is going to sound like a stupid question, but is it viable to mash the back of a head with, say, a convenient steering wheel lock to get the same effect?

Guantes
08-17-2005, 10:13 PM
j_conway,
A very good question.
I'm no medical expert, there may be some on the forum, but my thought would be that if you could snap the spine and cause sufficient damage to the spinal cord you could cause the same affect. In that case though the weight behind the violent impact may cause the physical reaction you are trying to avoid. Honest answer, I'm not sure.

Edited to add: Personally I would swing vertically and try to split his head open. My thought is that the vertical motion may not have the same affect on a trigger pull as a horizontal motion.

Geezer
08-17-2005, 11:12 PM
That's where the pons medulla is, it is the gateway for messages incoming and outgoing. No pons, no messages either way.

You might want to take a look at a Gray's Anatomy, or get some charts to get a clear picture of this.

I have seen a video of a customer in a Stop & Rob shot in the apricot by a BG from behind. Looked like you'd cut the strings on a marionette. A convulsion would be physically impossible, no more than a light could flicker after you turned off the power.

A blow to the pons from a club should have a similar affect as a couple of Coop's slaps, that is, it overloads the switchboard with messages, and you could get anything.

The herky jerky movements in an epileptic siezure are caused by erratic firing of messages across the pons. I would think that you could easily get convulsive actions after a blow across the pons. However, it should put your guy in a serious state of confusion long enough to hook 'em.

I guess it depends on how close a friend your friend is, and on whether or not you've actually looked up the anatomy of the brain and practiced the shot. It's not a big target, but it is the jackpot, the big winner. It is accessible to a shot from anywhere in the 360 degree horizontal plane.

God bless and y'all be mindful out there.

steve b
09-05-2005, 10:50 AM
no reason to leave what cover you have.maintain distance.draw and cover. steve