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ComJJ
05-11-2005, 03:44 PM
1. Anyone studied with/certified by Tom Patire?
2. Anyone studied with/certified by the Underwood Systems folks up in Toronto?
Your thoughts re. "non-lethal" systems for civilians.
How much of this type of training is useful. What should you study and why?
GP

Cris Anderson
05-11-2005, 03:56 PM
1. Anyone studied with/certified by Tom Patire?Not directly with Patire, but with his Canadian senior rep.
2. Anyone studied with/certified by the Underwood Systems folks up in Toronto? Yes.
Your thoughts re. "non-lethal" systems for civilians.
How much of this type of training is useful. What should you study and why?
GP
The paradox of training in a"non-lethal" system is it is sufficient for the majority of situations a middle class person in a middle class area will probably encounter, but is woefully inadequate for the times when someone with major intent to do you harm is in bad breath range. I think they are quite good for security guards and bouncers, but still think you better be able to switch to something more violent and offensive in nature at the drop of a hat.

All-in fighting
05-11-2005, 04:42 PM
gents, how do you know when your foe will be non-lethal? these systems that tell you that you can sudue someone without hurting them or you getting hurt is training you for sorrowful surprise. it is safer to put out a strong force and de-escalate it then to project a weak force and find out that it is too late to put on a spirited offense . there was a gentleman putting a carotid choke on a man in the new jersey area, the man pulled out a knife and shanked the guy in his leg [ just missing the femoral] the man upped the ante and survived . he never trained or used carotid chokes again ---he only used windpipe chokes [ in which the gag effect makes the guy stop in his tracks ] from which he could lower the force if he wanted to.---ralph

ComJJ
05-11-2005, 05:52 PM
Chris, Since you have studied both systems, please give us some specific info. as to what is taught, training sequence, how, when where, etc. Thanks.

Hi Ralph. You hit the nail on the head. :D
Gene

BB82
05-11-2005, 06:43 PM
I've attended two CDT seminars, and they are good for what they are. They are trying to limit your liability in a self-defense situation. They have some awesomely PAINFUL techniques, in that disturbed martial arts kinda way.
I use it as an addition to my regular classes, but would never use it as the only tool in my toolbox.
The CDT folks that taught the seminars that I attended seemed to be more law-enforcement oriented, but all the material crossed over to civilian life.
They also teach excellent techniques for use against other daily risks that aren't out-and-out street fighting.
My only gripe was the cost. I'm not cheap, but...my gosh...
I don't remember the specifics, but they wanted me to become associated with their group, and it was quite a chunk of change on the initial outlay.
I decided to just attend a seminar here and there instead.
The low-down: Go. Learn. It's different.

Belisarius
05-11-2005, 07:15 PM
I agree with Ralph. Unarmed "lethal" techniques are often just non-lethal ones that have been applied repeatedly, perhaps out of adrenal panic or rage, after the opponent has already been rendered semi-conscious or truly out cold. They are also sometimes the tragic result of inadvertent collisions between a falling subject and something hard or sharp.

I think the standard toolkit of strong and aggressive entries, dominant positional grappling skills, and a few reliable submissions will cross-over pretty well to pure control tactics. ISR Matrix is the state-of-the-art in DT as far as I am concerned, but then again I have never been an LE professional and wouldn't presume to try to tell you men how to do your jobs. This is not to say that the current liability climate should be sneered at and that courses like CDT are a bad idea.

Cris Anderson
05-11-2005, 07:38 PM
Ralph captured the situation very well, the problem with low-level techniques is what do you do when when the BG ups the ante(I think I said the same thing, but must give ralph credit for getting the idea across in a more direct fashion).

I have done a couple of seminars in CDT, coming from a jiu jitsu background, there was nothing earth shattering for me, slight variations on wrist grabs from what I'm used to, example supporting the wrist area with your thumb or finger to avoid excessive extension of the wrist. Basicaly dumbed down jiu jitsu with the intention of causing minimum lasting damage from the techniques.

I have taken an 8 week basic course in Underwood's Defendo, as have several others now on this board, and a few seminars with Robbie Cressman, the main man behind the Defendo revival. Again, very similar to jiu jitsu, emphasis on stunning techniques before applying techniques. Defendo is based on a series of 5 grips, 10 stuns, 12 pressure points and 5 leverages.

As a basic self defense course, it is pretty good, covering awareness, pointing out if you are using the techniques, you screwed up( but not getting into pre-assault cues, criminal mind set or set ups)stun and run if you can, stun and use pain compliance to effect an escape. Although some of the stuns are without a doubt effective, ie open hand elbow strike to the neck,fingers to jugular notch, I am concerned with the lack of striking.Having been exposed to the teachings of Carl Cestari, Ralph Grasso and SouthNarc, basically it is not violent enough for me. I understand that in the higher levels of Defendo, the offensive and violent element is increased.

Like many with a background in martial arts, I take what I believe I can use from whatever I train in, and discard the rest. I will continue to experiment with what I have learned in Defendo, but it will not be my primary unarmed techniques.

michael
05-11-2005, 09:06 PM
I would look seriously at Senshido and the shredder. We've recently discussed it, so do a search and read through all the info there.

I agree with the others. If you're not doing LE/Security type work, there isn't much need for "soft" self-defense. Maybe for a drunk family member or something along those lines, but for a civilian, I would spend my time working on effective things. Look at SouthNarc, Kelly McCann/Jim Grover, Carl Cestari, Richard Dimitri, et al.

Once you get the basics of a good, aggressive system down, if you want to learn some soft techniques, then go for it. I don't think it's worth the time for civilians unless you're going to devote a tremendous amount of time to the study of all types of unarmed and armed SD.

Cold War Scout
05-12-2005, 08:35 AM
gents, how do you know when your foe will be non-lethal? these systems that tell you that you can sudue someone without hurting them or you getting hurt is training you for sorrowful surprise. it is safer to put out a strong force and de-escalate it then to project a weak force and find out that it is too late to put on a spirited offense . there was a gentleman putting a carotid choke on a man in the new jersey area, the man pulled out a knife and shanked the guy in his leg [ just missing the femoral] the man upped the ante and survived . he never trained or used carotid chokes again ---he only used windpipe chokes [ in which the gag effect makes the guy stop in his tracks ] from which he could lower the force if he wanted to.---ralph

One of the smartest things I have heard lately....

GregK
05-12-2005, 09:49 AM
From a combatives point of view (knowing that we should strike first), what handful of chokes, neck cranks and/or submissions would any of you suggest for an amateur. For example, on Carl Cestari's ground fighting tape, he shows a rear naked choke and it's reverse (instead of being behind the BG, you're in front; the arm that would go around the throat now goes behind the neck/head; the hand/fist that puts pressure on the back of the head is now placed in the eye/nose area of the face to gouge & rip [shedder?]). Do chicken/turkey wings to hammer lock & choke, whether standing or on the ground, have any combatives value? How about Bruce Tegner's arm bar, or in general, surfboards, heel hooks, ankle locks/stretches, arm bars (juji gatame, figure 4s) or Strangler Lewis's 1916 figure 4 choke & arm bar (triangle choke and arm bar when you're on your back; source - Gene Lebell's Grappling Encyclopedia, First Edition)?

Is there any general rule of thumb that can be used by an amateur in a combatives setting to lessen the possibility of a BG using such holds against you, e.g., keeping your arms close to your body, or whatever?

Finally, as suggested by Ralph, if an amateur was fortunate enough to get his arms around a BG's neck/throat, e.g., in a rear naked choke, would it be a good rule of thumb/easier, move effective, to just choke/crush the windpipe instead of trying to go for a carotid strangle?

Tegnerfan
05-12-2005, 12:26 PM
what concerns me are the number of people who take this kind of course and think they are now prepared to defend themselves.I know of a local instructor near me who has taught a number of self-defense classes for women based entirely on Chin Na(?sp).There were no striking or kicking techniques taught whatsoever.The women worked on a number of nifty looking holds and pressure points, and simple releases based on joint locking.They are convinced after this that they are able to protect themselves from a violent assault.I earlier offered to teach classes based on combat proven strikes and so on, but was informed by the administrators that they found the moves too violent,and wanted them toned down!

Cris Anderson
05-12-2005, 06:34 PM
Tegnerfan,

That is the irony of most self defense course, if you show the effective, brutal techniques that will work the majority of the time, you scare away the people who need it the most. If you offer up a talisman like a kubotan, and show how to flail your keys in a tweeker's eyes, your booked solid for months on end. There is a local instructor who quit his job as an RCMP to teach ladies self defense techniques with the kubaton. I see lots of women walking around with their keys sticking out of their purses on the end of a kubaton, in the believe that they can defend themselves against an attack, even if they would have a hard time getting out their weapon. But because violence is such a far removed concept from most sheeple, they believe they are protected, via the magic of a 2 day pocket stick course that teaches pressure point techniques and flails for self defense, neglecting the hammerfist strikes that make the kubaton effective.

My wife has put up with my obessions for close to twenty years, yet refuses to be educated in basic self defense. Luckily nothing has ever happened to her, but someday that may change.

mudvillejon
05-13-2005, 10:57 AM
From a combatives point of view (knowing that we should strike first), what handful of chokes, neck cranks and/or submissions would any of you suggest for an amateur. For example, on Carl Cestari's ground fighting tape, he shows a rear naked choke and it's reverse (instead of being behind the BG, you're in front; the arm that would go around the throat now goes behind the neck/head; the hand/fist that puts pressure on the back of the head is now placed in the eye/nose area of the face to gouge & rip [shedder?]). Do chicken/turkey wings to hammer lock & choke, whether standing or on the ground, have any combatives value? How about Bruce Tegner's arm bar, or in general, surfboards, heel hooks, ankle locks/stretches, arm bars (juji gatame, figure 4s) or Strangler Lewis's 1916 figure 4 choke & arm bar (triangle choke and arm bar when you're on your back; source - Gene Lebell's Grappling Encyclopedia, First Edition)?

Is there any general rule of thumb that can be used by an amateur in a combatives setting to lessen the possibility of a BG using such holds against you, e.g., keeping your arms close to your body, or whatever?

Finally, as suggested by Ralph, if an amateur was fortunate enough to get his arms around a BG's neck/throat, e.g., in a rear naked choke, would it be a good rule of thumb/easier, move effective, to just choke/crush the windpipe instead of trying to go for a carotid strangle?

To keep from being locked and choked, keep your chin tucked - keep your elbows in near you body and your hands in front of you, and if any one grabs your wrist hand or arm, rip it free.

I need a better understanding of what you mean when you say 'amateur'? I'm an amateur, but I train three or four times a week.

Many, not all of the things you mentioned can be pretty dangerous to practice if you don't know what you are doing and are not being supervised. Heel hooks are a good example.

Others you mention are good - and not necessarilly finessed - but I doubt that most people would make them work without hands on training, and some kind of live practice. I think bent and straight arm locks fall under this category as well as most chokes.

If you are training someplace, personnally I think that most of that stuff is worth learning at some point. I don't think it is worth learning first.

Tegnerfan
05-13-2005, 02:59 PM
Cris, my wife is the same.She has absolutely no interest in learning self-defense.She deals with the public a lot in her job,and sometimes situations can get tense to say the least.But I hope she her luck will continue to hold out,until she'll let me teach her.At least my boys have more sense when it comes to learning to defend themselves!

ComJJ
05-13-2005, 03:26 PM
Guys,
Thanks for the responses. I'm (like Chris) also from a jujutsu background, and have learned and practiced just about every possible way to tie up/break body parts.
But, I believe it is just too dangerous to try to lock someone up at first, maybe ever.
Chris, thanks for the info. As for the 5-10-12-5 series you mentioned, will you go into some detail as to the techniques used and the sequence taught? I'm just interested in the whats and whys of the Underwood system.
All the best.

GP

Geezer
05-13-2005, 04:03 PM
Guess I'm pretty lucky. Jill's been a shooter since a few months after she took up with me and the bunch back in LA. Before she learned to shoot, (from Dinky Dau George, BTW), we had a very long talk about "don't carry it if you ain't gonna use it." She didn't have any trouble with that part.

She has numerous CCWs, carries in her purse, can't stand to be without her folding knife. A few months ago we were shooting to qualify in another state, and the instructors were a couple of deputies. While she was shooting, the other one nudged me and whispered, "Man, you don't ever want to piss her off." I seriously doubt that she would be interested in anything non-lethal.

She has had such great results introducing other women to shooting that we are pursuing an NRA instructor's ticket for her.

Not bad for a 5'-1" sweet as pie, feminine as all get out grandma, eh? RES not 15 minutes ago on the speaker phone threatened to come out here, do away with me and steal her! She thought that was funny. Hmmmmm.

God bless and y'all be mindful out there.

Cold War Scout
05-13-2005, 04:25 PM
One of my several gyms, in this case Gold's Gym, now offers a self-defense class for woman. Which I think generally is a great thing. But they now have a poster board prominently placed, with the quotes of a number of women who have taken the course. Although there are several to choose from, the one I think is most in the fantasy world is one that goes something like "All women should take this course. Just let somebody on the street mess with me now." I would consider that nothing less than a delusion of grandeur.

MTS
05-13-2005, 06:59 PM
Not bad for a 5'-1" sweet as pie, feminine as all get out grandma, eh? RES not 15 minutes ago on the speaker phone threatened to come out here, do away with me and steal her! She thought that was funny. Hmmmmm.

Tell her that is the same line he uses on all the "Babes".;)

I hope he's OK the last episode of "ST:ENTERPRISE" should be ending about now. He was a little tore up over it when he called me the other night.:)

GregK
05-13-2005, 08:03 PM
Jon,
Thank you for your reply. I train solo for about 5 hours per week. I use the term amateur to distinguish myself from the professional/serious amateur fighter who spends most of their day or a considerable amount thereof training for competition. These people actually like/look forward to fighting and pushing/abusing their bodies and their training is in effect an arms race to keep up with the competition. I don't challenge the hand to hand fighting abilities of these people or their training methods. It's just that that way of life is not for me. I don't look forward to getting a broken nose or having my arm broken, nor do I get excited about doing the same to someone else.

However, I realize that there are BGs out there and this is a reality that I, or anyone else may face. As such, I'm trying to get what people think are the bare essentials of stand up/clinch grappling and ground fighting. The things that anyone can learn on their own in a limited amount of time if they put their mind to it and can access the correct mind set when needed. For example, if you or someone else had the responsibility to train soldiers in the limited time that Fairbairn did, what would you put in "Get Tough" regarding clinch or ground work? What from grappling/MMA, if anything, could be included, not only from an offensive point of view, but from a defensive point of view also?

For example, if a soldier finds him or herself caught in an enemy's clinch or guard and you assume the enemy knows how to use those positions, what simple things does grappling/MMA offer the soldier to help him/her overcome those situations? We know Fairbairn basically says go nuts, chop your way out with ax hands, chin jabs/palms, knees, grab b*lls, spit/rip face, etc. We also know that many average people, police officers, BGs, etc., have limited amounts of training, if any, yet at times they're able to access the right mind set/go blank/go crazy or whatever, and fight off attackers/police, jump out of multistory buildings and run away, fight off animals, etc. If you can combine that mind set with simple tools like an ax hand, palm, somewhat conditioned fist, etc., then a person in the soldier's or amateur's situation may at least have a better chance.

Basically, all I'm asking for is what people think would be similar tools/methods from a grappling/MMA perspective. If there are none, then there are none.

mudvillejon
05-14-2005, 04:01 AM
Jon,
Thank you for your reply. I train solo for about 5 hours per week. I use the term amateur to distinguish myself from the professional/serious amateur fighter who spends most of their day or a considerable amount thereof training for competition. These people actually like/look forward to fighting and pushing/abusing their bodies and their training is in effect an arms race to keep up with the competition. I don't challenge the hand to hand fighting abilities of these people or their training methods. It's just that that way of life is not for me. I don't look forward to getting a broken nose or having my arm broken, nor do I get excited about doing the same to someone else.

However, I realize that there are BGs out there and this is a reality that I, or anyone else may face. As such, I'm trying to get what people think are the bare essentials of stand up/clinch grappling and ground fighting. The things that anyone can learn on their own in a limited amount of time if they put their mind to it and can access the correct mind set when needed. For example, if you or someone else had the responsibility to train soldiers in the limited time that Fairbairn did, what would you put in "Get Tough" regarding clinch or ground work? What from grappling/MMA, if anything, could be included, not only from an offensive point of view, but from a defensive point of view also?

For example, if a soldier finds him or herself caught in an enemy's clinch or guard and you assume the enemy knows how to use those positions, what simple things does grappling/MMA offer the soldier to help him/her overcome those situations? We know Fairbairn basically says go nuts, chop your way out with ax hands, chin jabs/palms, knees, grab b*lls, spit/rip face, etc. We also know that many average people, police officers, BGs, etc., have limited amounts of training, if any, yet at times they're able to access the right mind set/go blank/go crazy or whatever, and fight off attackers/police, jump out of multistory buildings and run away, fight off animals, etc. If you can combine that mind set with simple tools like an ax hand, palm, somewhat conditioned fist, etc., then a person in the soldier's or amateur's situation may at least have a better chance.

Basically, all I'm asking for is what people think would be similar tools/methods from a grappling/MMA perspective. If there are none, then there are none.

Greg,

I think that as short list of grappling techniques for the floor. I think that the basics of Judo Ne waza are pretty good. Several hold downs and escapes, the couple of versions of the naked strangle, variations of the straight armlock, and bent armlock. All of these work against resistance. They are all pretty simple in their basic versions.

Here is the problem as I see it. All the stuff that happens in between applying those techniques is the real meat and potatoes of grappling. Its the stuff about balance, position and settling your weight etc. You can't learn that on your own. In my opinion this stuff is more important than the individual techniques. Its the base that lets you escape, stand up, or not bother with submissions and either pound of gouge the other guy.

Standing grappling is the same story. I am sure we could come up with a short list of the simplest takedowns, but you learn to use them through live practice. Its that same live practice - the tussle - that has a strong impact on your ability to fight in close in a clinch.

The solution that I have come to finally is that if I get a fresh beginner, I would teach the basics of Fairbairn's strikes, at about the same time I teach the basics of judo. Then somewhat later I put those strikes/atemi together with the (Randori waza / sport) Judo, do some free practice and scenarios. It ends up being more about using the body sense, balance and positioning that you get from the grappling in order to apply the strikes. Its not so much about doing lots of throws and going to the mat.

That's pretty much it... my compromise so far, as far as unarmed self defense tecnique. Its probably is not as great as what some folks do, but it works for me because the Judo is a hobby. I think you could do the same with wrestling, or BJJ if they do stand up.

It gives a balance between sport and drill, grappling and striking, and it s a pretty good work out for a guy slowly becoming an old fart.

Jon

Belisarius
05-14-2005, 07:58 AM
I agree with Jon. We all have seen how real fights, even with people who look good in clinical technique labs, usually devolve into an episode of "When Chimpanzees Attack." The punches start to open up, get sloppy, and miss; people lose their balance;, fighters who know better close their eyes and lean away from the strikes; panic occurs on the ground; etc. The pressure makes people revert to whatever has worked for them in the past, particularly whatever has worked recently, and to hope that this is appropriate for the current situation they find themselves in.

Belisarius
05-14-2005, 08:00 AM
I think the problem is that focus on technique under controlled conditions (which is still very important) does not lead to skill in making all the small adjustments, the improv stuff, that you really need in an actual wild melee, when the number of variables suddenly explodes. The guy who performs the best is able to fearlessly bulldog people with aggressive footwork, but also able to maintain a crisp, trained posture and avoid letting the fight get away from him. The coordination of footwork and posture to dominate range is an "athletic" attribute and involves some preconscious subtleties, but that is what can force openings for individual techniques.

Some great fighters have dozens of techniques at their disposal at this point and some have only a handful of highly developed basics---that part doesn't matter so much as the big-picture skill. Greg, I think that all of the grappling techniques that you mention can be effective and that there is clearly some carry-over between them because the fundamentals of choking/strangling someone or breaking a major joint are going to be there in any case.

mudvillejon
05-14-2005, 10:51 AM
I agree with Jon.

Damn...I'll have to go back and read what I wrote... :eek:

Belisarius
05-14-2005, 11:20 AM
Hahaha. I don't know if my saying that I agree with someone is good, neutral, or the kiss of death for that poor person as far as the rest of the world is concerned.

mudvillejon
05-14-2005, 11:56 AM
Well I appreciated it.

I know that compared to what some are doing my training is probably bush league, but it reminds me of a long debate on what is the best wilderness survival knife that took place on an internet forum some years ago. You can imagine that everyone had an opinion. Eventually where we got to was that it was the knife that you were least likely to leave home in the drawer. It turned out that for most of folks this was a humble pocket knife most of the time.

I think their is a corallary to SD training. The training that you can motivate yourself to do is better than the training that you don't do. If you know what you are likely willing to do, you can start your thinking about how to make that training experience most useful for your SD goals.

Jon