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View Full Version : L.A. Sheriff's shootout with SUV occupants



Agencyman
05-09-2005, 04:12 PM
Saw this some time earlier but was busy and not sure I saw it correctly.

I just watched Fox News showing tapes of the deputies shooting at the SUV, but at the last, as it slowed down and stopped, I noticed that one of them was standing in front of a column of bricks to protect it from any return fire.

This is why I want to train to get it right without thinking "cover", to just immediately, if not sooner, get behind it!

No doubt he knew better, and lives every day under a threat I can only imagine, but in the heat of battle...

Bruce

michael
05-09-2005, 06:49 PM
Turned out the occupants of the SUV were unarmed. Did anyone else notice the crossfire situation between the officers on both sides of the street? They were practically shooting at each other. I'm amazed they didn't shoot each other. But then again, they fired 70+ rounds and only hit the guy 4 times. Looks like they need a little remedial firearms training, or some training from Gabe on vehicle gunfighting.:p

Guantes
05-09-2005, 08:18 PM
There are many things that are not apparent.
Things happened befor the video that are not on the video.
This station is the Wild Wild West as far as crime is concerned.
Many personel could have little experience.
One dep was shot, in the vest I believe.
There is much more that I cannot say.

Marc "Crafty Dog" Denny
05-09-2005, 09:24 PM
When I first moved to LA in 1982 I took a job for a private investigation agency, and due to my Spanish, was given a lot of jobs finding Mexicans and Mexican-Americans to serve them with papers-- typically to appear in court as a witness to a car accident-- the agency was working on busting a big "swoop and squat" ring.

Sometimes I was also given assignments serving papers in Compton.

Compton indeed is an interesting place to be a white process server.

My technique was to ride a really big and really loud Harley, in biker type clothes with a natty soft leather attache case slung cross shoulder. People never knew what to make of me and I never had a problem worse than being given bad directions , , , but I digress , , ,

Treyarch
05-10-2005, 07:28 AM
Compton indeed is an interesting place to be a white process server.

I'm sometimes told to go do courier duty...but I never get the good assignments like you did.

westdesrat
05-10-2005, 07:50 AM
One rifle... one round... One dead perp. I dont understand why they did just break out the longarms.

I also saw the guy pointing his pistol at the camera man. trigger finger disciplne or not... dont cover anything with your muzzle unless you are willing to destroy it.

I wont second guess *why* the cops opened fire, but they could have executed it a whole lot better.

Guantes
05-10-2005, 09:16 AM
Mistakes were made, of that there is no question.
No deps were killed and hopefully lessons will be learned for the future.

RMF
05-10-2005, 09:34 AM
Why do they always report they were in an SUV? Does that make it worse? Never see it reported as they were in a sedan.

Guantes
05-10-2005, 09:48 AM
SUVs are popular so often involved. It may also be that a 6000lb suv is considered a bigger threat than a 2500lb compact/midsize due to strength, horsepower,etc. Would you rather be rammed by a small Nissan or a Suburban?

MTS
05-10-2005, 09:49 AM
Why do they always report they were in an SUV? Does that make it worse? Never see it reported as they were in a sedan.

For the same reason every person shot with a rifle is usually reported as being shot with an "assault rifle" or an "sniper rifle" the object is being villified to enforce the non-PC nature of the object and make legislation regulating/banning them more palatable.

Guantes
05-10-2005, 09:51 AM
Mark,
Do you think they are trying to ban suvs?

RMF
05-10-2005, 10:34 AM
Mark,
Do you think they are trying to ban suvs?

Yes. They are not PC so we peons shouldn't have them - only for the political upper crust.

Guantes
05-10-2005, 10:40 AM
How would they do that? Something like you couldn't buy an suv unless your income was over 100k/yr. As popular as they are I find it difficult to believe that they are not PC. I think Suvs and trucks outnumber cars here.

MTS
05-10-2005, 11:02 AM
Mark,
Do you think they are trying to ban suvs?

Yes, enviromental groups would like to see them banned.

Of course you would not see an outright ban. They would just be regulated/taxed out of production.

GeorgeG
05-10-2005, 11:24 AM
How would they do that? Something like you couldn't buy an suv unless your income was over 100k/yr. As popular as they are I find it difficult to believe that they are not PC. I think Suvs and trucks outnumber cars here.
Methods have been proposed that parallel CA gun laws. In other words, make them more expensive. Economics will take care of it.

Kyle H
05-10-2005, 02:41 PM
As popular as they are I find it difficult to believe that they are not PC. I think Suvs and trucks outnumber cars here.
Their popularity, in many ways, is what makes them un-PC-- also note that since you live in Idaho, your lack of exposure to the leftie idiocy pouring out of other locales leaves you thinking rationally (and the remainder of us who are used to this toxicity, though we think rationally, are not suprised by irrationality).

Treyarch
05-10-2005, 02:47 PM
ALthough a serious incident, let me be the first to say:

The LAPD needs to scrap unit Adam 12 and replace him with unit AC-130.

4 hits, aprox 100 rounds fired...

"Shots fired, officer down, requesting ambulance and spooky..."

Although politicaly un-viable, it would make a statement.

RMF
05-10-2005, 03:03 PM
+1 on spooky. Would love to see that at night. The tracers would make a beautiful picture for the news cameras.

Treyarch
05-10-2005, 03:31 PM
Just think of how many serial numbers would have been used if the police were using serial numbered bullets...

Oy...

That paperwork...

Geezer
05-10-2005, 05:57 PM
There is no rational comment I could possible make about this event. I had just written a long essay praising modern police professionalism. DELETE.

The real problem is I can't figure out why it took me so long to escape from there. Should have listened to what the Sensei said many, many years ago.

God bless and y'all be mindful out there.

Guantes
05-10-2005, 06:26 PM
While there is no question that this was a f*** up, I do not think 10-15 deps is a good representation of a department with near 9000 active deps.

Treyarch
05-10-2005, 07:19 PM
While there is no question that this was a f*** up, I do not think 10-15 deps is a good representation of a department with near 9000 active deps.

Probably not.

It still highlights the need for the LASD to have smart weapons, or at the very least, a Spooky.

Guantes
05-10-2005, 07:23 PM
Better yet, smart deputies. :)

casspir
05-18-2005, 02:59 PM
Well...from an LE point of view: The weapons handling was piss poor, the cross fire situation was unacceptable! That relates to the training as a whole, since the SD does have a range program and I'm sure that they all train to the same standard.

"Gee Mrs Smith, I 'm sorry to say that we killed your husband today, but we did hit the suspect with four of the 120 rounds expended. Sorry".

Give me a break!

battleground
05-18-2005, 06:29 PM
It was 4 shots hit out of 124. 5 if you count the deputy. That is horrible performance. These guys made New York look good. As for nobody breaking out a rifle, would you want them shooting a rifle if their shooting performance is that poor? Can you imagine 120 wild rifle bullets flying around? Can you imagine how much prosecution there would be if this was civilians attempting to make an arrest? Can you spell double standard?

One armchair querterback suggestion I have is to limit the number of cars in the chase so fewer people are shooting. My other suggestion is more training. All I can say is everyone in the shooting class I took this weekend was disgusted, especially the current and former LEOs.

Burncycle
05-19-2005, 04:52 AM
One rifle... one round... One dead perp. I dont understand why they did just break out the longarms.

I can't imagine what is running through the minds of some of the officers as this is happening, but it seems to be a situation of "come as you are". Kind of an "Everybody is shooting, so I need to empty my magazine too- it'll be over by the time I get to my trunk to get my carbine" deal.

I agree though, it wouldn't have taken much away from the firepower for one officer to pause temporarily, go back and retrieve his shotgun or carbine, and then bring it into play, or even to have at least one person have it ready before the shooting even starts.

Some time ago I was reading about squad organization thoughout the years; in WWII there were cases where people wouldn't shoot a single round in the middle of a firefight. Interestingly enough, when a second BAR was added to a squad, the cases where people weren't shooting dropped significantly. It's like another rifle rocking and rolling at full auto gave the others confidence or something. They may not have hit anything, but they were shooting. I don't know if this phenomina has anything to do with this incident -- "Everyone around me is shooting, so I need to as well" type deal, but it just kind of reminded me of that, seeing so many officers shooting at once with so few hits.

Of course, the important thing is that they'll learn from the incident and hopefully training will adapt accordingly. I'm glad the officer who was hit didn't get any permanent injuries. Hopefully future training will take further steps to ensure officers are more aware of their surroundings (watch more closely for crossfire), encourage them to go for cover as they engage, and perhaps showing the importance of grabbing a long arm if there are enough officers to cover the suspect.

TimT
05-20-2005, 08:48 PM
Hi, my name is Tim and I am a friend of Marks, I've been reading the forum for a couple of days and decided to post. I saw the video from Fox, and for the sake of argument there was way to many crossfire dangers, as well as the rounds that could have gone into the houses.

I dont know how it is in LA but I counted 15 deputies, or was the clip rerunning. I am wondering if the teach the Stop and Approach method in LA with escape zones? If they don't it would of helped with the crossfire issues. :)

MTS
05-20-2005, 09:21 PM
Hi, my name is Tim and I am a friend of Marks, I've been reading the forum for a couple of days and decided to post. I saw the video from Fox, and for the sake of argument there was way to many crossfire dangers, as well as the rounds that could have gone into the houses.

I dont know how it is in LA but I counted 15 deputies, or was the clip rerunning. I am wondering if the teach the Stop and Approach method in LA with escape zones? If they don't it would of helped with the crossfire issues. :)

Hi Tim and welcome aboard, everyone be nice to him, he is my FTO at my new PD :D, he is also preping to deploy to Iraq as a Dyn-Corp police instructor.

If I understand the incident correctly there was no traffic stop per se so I don't think there was any kind of approach.

Guantes
05-21-2005, 12:01 AM
As I understand, it started as a "shots fired" call with a white suv involved. An attempted stop resulted in a twelve minute pursuit with driving on lawns and backing at deps, ending in the fiasco.

TimT
05-21-2005, 10:55 AM
Thanks Mark for the words of welcome. I guess I mis-understood the FOX news report. Well I guess some of the good citizens in the neiborhood got there yards arriated for free :D

Now that I understand the story, I can now see how the the officers were in over-drive.

michael
05-21-2005, 11:16 AM
TimT, welcome aboard.

Take care of the old guy.:p

TimT
05-21-2005, 11:56 AM
I will do my best to take of the old guy, but sometimes I think the old guy is taking care of me. I am glad Mark is out on our departemnt. He and my wife worked together on a previous departemnt, and he is not only a ecellent instructor he is also a really fun person to be around. :D

MTS
05-21-2005, 04:14 PM
Take care of the old guy.:p

I feel a lot older today after training with Marc "Crafty Dog" Denny.:o Especially since I probably had 20 years on the next oldest guy in the class and they all had training in kali etc.

MTS
05-21-2005, 04:15 PM
I will do my best to take of the old guy, but sometimes I think the old guy is taking care of me.

We watch out for each other.;)