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View Full Version : Red Dot Training - Pistol Sniping?



Gabriel Suarez
10-27-2010, 09:17 AM
Yesterday was a training day for me so I chose the 5.45 suchka and of course my EDC TSD Glock. Lately my focus has been as follows.

Snap Shots with Rifle - Starting in Patrol Ready (using the typicxal rifle LBE, etc.) shoulder rifle smartly and shoot. Eyeball shots at ten yards. Face shots at 25 yards, and body shots out to 200 yards. All from standing.

With the TSD Glock this is what I did. Single shot draws from concealment. 10 yard eyeball shots. That is all shots on a stick of gum basically. Not always perfect, but prety freaking close. Then moving back to 25 yards, 50 yards and on until I arrive at the same distance as the rifle. Out of one 17 round magazine, I hit the 200 yard IPSC sized steel 14 out of 17. The few times i did not hit it was clearly my trigger control. That is a crucial matter at that distance. Also focising on the dot rather than the target (the opposite of what we do in CQB) helped with hitting.

200 yards from the holster in about 5 seconds! As a comparison, Taylors much marketed Handgun Master COF will give you 6 seconds for a body shot at a mere 50 yards. Will the TSD RMR Glock quadrule your accuracy? I won't go as far as to say that, but I will say that things previousluy considered "master shooter" skill sets are within reach of the average man with this rig.

KarlinPhoenix
10-27-2010, 09:48 AM
Gabe, do you think it would have been any easier to make the 200 yard pistol hits if you used a G35 in .357 Sig and similar RDS that you use for your EDC?

It truly is amazing what is possible with the RDS on the EDC. One does not know what can be don with a 'common pistol' unless it is attempted and then done on a regular basis.

Many thanks for all of your R & D work and sharing those results.

Gabriel Suarez
10-27-2010, 10:31 AM
Sure....for long range the 357 SIG is a far better cartridge. But I think its a bit too much for general use. I may rig up a G35 in 357 SIG with an RDS.

abinok
10-27-2010, 04:23 PM
I just put a lonewolf threaded 357 sig barrel in my glock 35...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v726/abinok/gun%20stuff/100_0057.jpg

Dfferance in drop from 50yds to 200yds is negligable vs 135 or 155gr bullets from 40S&W. Ill be shooting 300 on sat... it was too muddy to move steel last time.

A more interesting option would be to assemble a longslide glock on a 10mm (20?) frame chambered for 10mm necked to 9mm aka 9x25 dillon

Mickey Rourke
10-27-2010, 07:45 PM
I can see I have a lot of work ahead of me...

I've been working my way out to shooting at greater distances.

I've been shooting my G19/JPoint at 50-75 yds. Draw, fire, re-holster. Sometimes two or three shots.

Another drill I've been doing at the same distance is to carry a daypack or my sneaky bag. I'll throw it on the hood of my Jeep as an improvised rest, draw and engage one or two targets. Think of it as shooting hadji's from behind a car in a parking lot, a planter in a mall, or a pew in a church...;)

Dave Sauer
10-27-2010, 07:54 PM
Gabe,

how close are your TSD guys to being ready to mill M&P slides for the RMR?

Dorkface
10-27-2010, 08:37 PM
Also focising on the dot rather than the target (the opposite of what we do in CQB) helped with hitting.

That's what I instinctively did in Kansas. I figured it was the best way to make sure everything was lined up and steady.

KarlinPhoenix
10-27-2010, 08:47 PM
I just put a lonewolf threaded 357 sig barrel in my glock 35...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v726/abinok/gun%20stuff/100_0057.jpg

Dfferance in drop from 50yds to 200yds is negligable vs 135 or 155gr bullets from 40S&W. Ill be shooting 300 on sat... it was too muddy to move steel last time.

A more interesting option would be to assemble a longslide glock on a 10mm (20?) frame chambered for 10mm necked to 9mm aka 9x25 dillon

That 9x25 is a monster cartridge. I have been interested in the G20 conversion to this caliber for a while. Run a longer barrel and you will be a 400yard plate smasher.

Spiffy
10-27-2010, 08:50 PM
It truly is amazing what is possible with the RDS on the EDC. One does not know what can be don with a 'common pistol' unless it is attempted and then done on a regular basis.

Many thanks for all of your R & D work and sharing those results.

I remember reading in one of the gun rags about a carbine class where they were doing things that people "told them they couldn't do" so they never tried to do it before.


Gabe and company may not have "invented" the idea but they have done the most to promote it and use it that I have seen.

abinok
10-27-2010, 10:38 PM
That 9x25 is a monster cartridge. I have been interested in the G20 conversion to this caliber for a while. Run a longer barrel and you will be a 400yard plate smasher.

The threaded barrels from lonewolf for the 34/35 length slides are as close to 6" that it does not matter. Lots of folks out there using the 10mm glocks in that caliber for deer with a 6" barrel.

Factory ballistics for the 9x25 dillon from doubletap are:
95gr 1995fps / 881 ft. lbs. 6" Lone Wolf bbl

125gr. 1700fps / 802 ft.lbs Lone Wolf 6" bbl

147gr.1495fps/ 730 ft.lbs - 6" Lone Wolf barrel

A former coworker was using a 9x25 in a ipsc open racegun "back in the day" before the power factor was reduced allowing 38super to compete as major... with a 3-4rd capacity advantage. I remember standign next to hm shooting it. The muzzle blast was unreal.

It might make fo an interesting long range toy, but I would hate to have to set that thing off in a small room. No edc for me.

Jack-O
10-27-2010, 11:28 PM
the 10mm is calling.....

a TSD glock in 10mm might make the perfect guerilla sniper backup weapon....

maybe even add a stock.....

:D

Red Ryder
10-28-2010, 12:33 AM
Since the sight radius is not an issue, is the longer slide needed or just a longer barrel?

Say a G35 barrel in a Glock 22, or a 6" Lone Wolf barrel in a Glock 17?

Gabriel Suarez
10-28-2010, 07:03 AM
The length is needed for a little bit more velocity. Personally, unless you will run a can, I don't like barrels sticking out there. I think a long slide 10mm or a long slide 357 sig might be a very interesting animal.

Someone was discussing the 9x25 as well. I don't know much about that caliber but worth a look I suppose.

Jack-O
10-28-2010, 09:18 AM
I looked at the 9x25 a while back for my GS backup concept thread. It's an awesome round and 30 carbine ballistics are very attractive. You can even get loaded ammo for it from Double Tap.

I kinda let it go by the wayside in spite of it's awesome numbers for a couple of critical reasons:
1) ammo is not very available and special order or handloading is needed. NOT commonly available
2) the cases and ammo are rare and traceable. even owning one puts you in a very very small group. Not always a good thing.
3) Apparently muzzle blast is significant and recoil is excessive to the point of being detrimental to our purposes
4) if hits at 200 with a 9mm are possible, then a 10mm should be even easier. In short, why bother with the 9x25 when the 10 offers so many more options for projectile weight (100 thru 230gr)
5) while 9x25 is the velocity king it does come at the above price. being very special also mean being very rare.

YARP
10-28-2010, 09:39 AM
I use a 6" barrel on my G20 sometimes and have to agree with Gabe that a long slide would be better (should of thought of that before I sent you guys my slide). However, out of a Glock 10mm factory barrel it can push DoubleTaps 125gr Tac-XP to 1600FPS which is more then enough to get it where it needs to go and still have some juice on it. 9x25 is actually a little bit cheaper through double tap so if your not a reloader it's not a bad option to look at if your really looking for a lighter faster bullet. If your a 10mm fan you can get some very different results with out changing your barrel and so on. My two loads that I like for the 10mm (from DoubleTap) are the 125gr loads whipping out the barrel at 1600fps and staying SUPER flat during long shots.
Sidenote: this is why I went to the 10mm a long time ago, I really pushed the range that I shot and wanted a round that didn't have as much drop so I wouldn't have to compensate with the iron sights.
If I'm stepping in to a close quarters (50 or under) situation, I REALLY like DoubleTaps 230gr equalizer round (135JHP with a 95gr ball). The best thing is, I didn't change anything but the magazine to get completely different results.

Since having OST put my dots on my Glock 20 and Glock 21 slides my shooting has improved in every way shape or form. Targets that are head sized are being hit with boring regularity a 100m and 200m hits on the body are also a breeze. I'm not talking about 10 second intervals either. I have not pushed beyond 200m with the red dots on and will give it a whirl as soon as I get the range space.

Jack-O, there was a discussion on here a short bit ago about adding a stock and a longer barrel to your Glock. If you'd like the link to the manufacturer send me a PM.

I think the idea of pistol sniping with a Glock is awesome, but what is the true envelope that we can push this idea out range ways and still be lethal?

Jack-O: Do you have some ballistics for that 100gr projectile for the 10mm, can you send me the load data if you have it? THANKS!

Gabriel Suarez
10-28-2010, 09:49 AM
You know, the possibilities get really scary when you start taking 100 yard head shots.:eek::eek::eek:

Jack Rumbaugh
10-28-2010, 09:55 AM
You know, the possibilities get really scary when you start taking 100 yard head shots.:eek::eek::eek:


Perhaps I need to go to the range this weekend...;)

YARP
10-28-2010, 10:22 AM
You know, the possibilities get really scary when you start taking 100 yard head shots.:eek::eek::eek:

LOL! 4moa dot over a head sized target is just about perfect at 100!:D
Now this may sound stupid but I think one of the most impressive features of having the RMR is just windowing targets (you talked about it in another post) when in CQB distances. It was crappy out yesterday (really, really high winds) so I went to the indoor range to practice 30 and under. I don't really look for the dot anymore.....It's like point shooting with insurance!

Jack=what range did you set your 0 at?

Jack Rumbaugh
10-28-2010, 10:44 AM
Jack=what range did you set your 0 at?

I set it at 25 and fine tuned at 50. One ragged hole from the bench. I'm on man sized steel at 100 all day. Next time out I think I'll see if I'm on a 6 inch target at 100.

YARP
10-28-2010, 10:58 AM
I set it at 25 and fine tuned at 50. One ragged hole from the bench. I'm on man sized steel at 100 all day. Next time out I think I'll see if I'm on a 6 inch target at 100.

What MOA dot are you using? I can't make head shots with my G21 w/ 9moa dot like that, body shots are it. I do have that one setup at 25 though.

Jack Rumbaugh
10-28-2010, 11:09 AM
I opted for the 4 MOA dot.

YARP
10-28-2010, 01:20 PM
Gabe-what kind of distances are you looking to go out to? It's obviously been proven that (where's Cope?) longer distances (over 200) can be made, but my ballistics mind is having an argument with my think outside the box mind on where to call it quits and say quit the stupid range tricks.

Jack-What caliber? I think a G21 with a silencer would be sweet for out to 100....

Gabriel Suarez
11-02-2010, 03:10 PM
Shooting a pistol over 100 yards is just a little showing off guys. The goal for this is hits at 100 with no issues, and that is very doable here. We are not trying to turn this into a rifle. We can show off at 200 yards alot, but it is just that.

At 10 yards, it depends. If I am moving and doing gunfighting drills, I simply look through the optic and hit, or if closer I see target around the optic and shoot....just like meat and metal.

Jack Rumbaugh
11-02-2010, 03:38 PM
If I am moving and doing gunfighting drills, I simply look through the optic and hit, or if closer I see target around the optic and shoot....just like meat and metal.

Glass and Guts(tm)

:thumbsup:

YARP
11-02-2010, 04:10 PM
Shooting a pistol over 100 yards is just a little showing off guys. The goal for this is hits at 100 with no issues, and that is very doable here. We are not trying to turn this into a rifle. We can show off at 200 yards alot, but it is just that.

At 10 yards, it depends. If I am moving and doing gunfighting drills, I simply look through the optic and hit, or if closer I see target around the optic and shoot....just like meat and metal.

Understood, shot this weekend with high winds. Stripped down to a T-shirt and waited til I got shivering pretty hard. Things really came apart after 100......It was even messy at 100 when the shivering got intense. I think this is the max that I will attempt to push it (unless of course my lifes on the line). I can only imagine what a moving target would be like in those conditions.

ScottT
11-02-2010, 04:28 PM
I'm really interested in this concept. Something I have been playing with for a little while is the idea of the offensive pistol.

Common ideas indicate that the pistol is a reactive instrument, best employed for defense. But that has not always been the case. The Civil war showed the advantages of the offensive use of the pistol in mounted combat. The adoption of the 1911 pistol was in large part due to the desire to have a cavalry pistol for offensive use. The H&K MK23 is classified as an "offensive pistol" and with good reason, it is designed to mount a suppressor on it and go hunting.

Although I have used the pistol a great deal as the thing I had in hand when I kicked in a door, I always preferred to have a long gun because of the increase in terminal effects. But, with the recent rifle discussions and thinking about what I really use, I am re-thinking my position on the red dot sights and the usefulness of a pistol like a Glock 34.

dittos
11-04-2010, 01:42 PM
Any word on a red dot for the 1911 yet?

Some shoot 1911s only due to doctrinal reasons (I don't understand them) - guys like me shoot 1911s because I can't shoot Glocks.

I sure am wanting a couple for my Colts.

Scott
03-22-2011, 03:31 AM
My problem with long range shots has been that when I aim 4 feet high to allow for bullet drop- I can no longer see the target as the front sight obscures the target - I'm dreaming of a RMR setup where I still have back up sights to help with dot acquisition, but have them low enough to not obscure a target below the sight line... Best to go with no iron sights at all? Thoughts?

CaptBeach
03-22-2011, 07:59 AM
Dont forget Caspians factory seconds store http://www.fosterind.com/...they sell COSMETIC blems at about 25-40% off of Caspians retail..sometimes that have lots of stuff in stock and just about every year they run a HUGE Pre Camp Perry sale...a few years ago I picked up a Foster "set" a matched, set slide and lower for $225...I could not find the blems...

CaptBeach
03-22-2011, 08:02 AM
You know, the possibilities get really scary when you start taking 100 yard head shots.:eek::eek::eek:


At that distance, if unsuppressed people would be looking for someone toting a rifle...suppressed, same same but no real reference point to try to locate shooter...especially from a slightly elevated hide adjacent to a crowded street...huge tactical advantage...