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Random
12-11-2003, 07:45 AM
I have two main .45s that I carry. One is a Kimber Ultra CDP. I like it for it's size/wheight, and ability to consistently chamber and fire anything I've tried and it is very accurate considering the 'tiny' bull barrell. What I don't like is the fact that it can not be carried with the hammer down and safety on. (Single Action)
(I've also heard it's got a plastic part in it somewhere that breaks easily if dropped, but this is third hand info, and I've never dropped a gun! ;-)
I don't feel that a safety on with the hammer cocked makes sense. Sure there's the grip safety, but it seems too easy for the regular safety to get flipped off, and having the hammer ready to drop doesn't fill me with a warm feeling ;-) but I guess that's the only option for a single action automatic?

I also carry an H&K compact .45. I love all the features of this gun, like the decocking lever built into the safety, and especially the fact that I can carry it with a full mag and one in the pipe with the safety on and hammer dropped. Should I need it, I can just flip off the safety, and fire the first shot double action
while subsequent shots have a nice short trigger pull. The only thing with this one is that it's not really all that compact.

I also put Hogue grips on both.

Thoughts about safety's, grips, caliber, reliability, something to consider that I haven't mentioned?

-mike

Vig Creed
12-11-2003, 08:02 AM
Want to sell that totally dangerous nonsensical Kimber cheap? :D

creed

DaveJames
12-11-2003, 08:30 AM
Ramdom, you have answered your pwn question, you have a 1911 you like but don't trust, and a H&K you like and trust, so carry the H&K, or spend the money and get the proper training for the 1911

John Silver
12-11-2003, 08:45 AM
Why do I feel like some of us are being baited out here?

Seriously, if you aren't comfortable with a gun, don't use it, no matter what you read in the magazines.

For me, I don't want the thing to go off until I pull the trigger. If it doesn that, I deem it safe. The condition of the hammer and a multitude of mechanical "safties" are irrelevant to safety issue.

To me the primary characteristic far above all else is reliability.

Then, a consistant trigger and low bore axis. Then, power. All else can be worked with - sights,finish, stocks, etc...

RedDevil
12-11-2003, 08:50 AM
I carry a full-size 1991 and feel very comfortable with it. More so than with the Glocks I owned but everyone needs to carry what THEY feel comfortable with.

Random
12-11-2003, 09:40 AM
Gee guys... thanks for the lectures, but you seem to have missed my point. I am well trained in the use of a 1911 thank you very much. I am comfortable with both guns.
What I would like to see discussed is which features do you look for and feel are important in a carry gun, concealed and otherwise.

Best Regards,

-mike

karl johnson
12-11-2003, 09:55 AM
You confused things a bit by having a title that said one thing, and then a message body which went off in a different direction.

TO my mind, a CCW gun has to be everything an open carry gun is, but smaller, thinner and lighter. Reliability is, of course, paramount. Caliber is important as far as having a known good one. The rest is up to you.

I would rather have a longer heavier thinner gun, than a short light fat one. I always felt better with my thin, heavy P7 than with a thick, light Glock 26 for that reason.

In my experience, and with my body type, a thinner gun is always better. I can conceal length better than girth (at ease, Anthony;) ) and so choose accordingly, when the choice is mine. I have no prob with cond 1 carry, as a good holster will keep the safety from being moved unless someone has been monkeying with it. I am also very happy with Glock type triggers, good DAO actions, and, finally, TDA actions. I son't think there is a best action type for CCW as such, but you may have to be more careful in choosing holsters with a SA design.

KarlJ


Gee guys... thanks for the lectures, but you seem to have missed my point. I am well trained in the use of a 1911 thank you very much. I am comfortable with both guns.
What I would like to see discussed is which features do you look for and feel are important in a carry gun, concealed and otherwise.

Best Regards,

-mike

Dave T
12-12-2003, 04:15 PM
Number one reqirement is functional reliability. Second, according to Jeff Cooper, a good trigger (you can overcome a lot but it's hard to shoot with a bad trigger). Sights you can see speed up the learning curve and make hits easier and faster.

After that it becomes more a matter of personal tast. As always, YMMV!

GLR40
12-13-2003, 02:15 AM
well, imho first/foremost the gun has to work, and be combat accurate, my prefernces run to kahr P9 and PM9 for EDC, or Glock 27/26/33, the Glocks are much thicker though.Carry my Kahr daily, its the lightest thinnest reliable firearm i have seen, the PM9 is about the size of a walther PPK.

GLR

jacketch
12-13-2003, 04:55 PM
For me, reliability is the primary consideration. If it won't work every time, why carry.
Second is effectiveness, which includes accuracy and caliber/load. If it won't stop the BG, why use it.
Third is concealability, which usually in my case (I'm 5'7" and 155#) is controlled by thickness (or if prefered, thinness). If I can't make it invisible, it isn't CCW.
Fourth is the type of gun. In warm weather I usually carry a Sig P239 but this time of year I mostly have my Kimber TLE IWB or occasionally a BHP OWB depending on what I am wearing.

billcameron
12-13-2003, 05:47 PM
I would say a gun has to be reliable or as close to 100% as you can get it. Reliablity is one thing I will not trade off for superiority in other areas. I also think you should chose a gun or guns you will carry. A gun at home in the safe is of zero use when you need a gun. So my first criteria is a reliable gun that I will carry. After that I suppose back to the old IPSC thinking of accuracy, power, speed. But here I think we can have some trades off and it is a balance depending upon you and your situation. An individual may give some accuracy for more power, or give some power for more speed. But certainly we need all three in adequate degrees for our given situation.

sponge
12-17-2003, 05:29 AM
Concealability is the most important. The FEATURES that make a pistol discreatly carriable are to be thought of as 3 dimensions. In order of importance(for discreat carry) these dimensions are:

1. Width, a longer gun can be carried higher on the belt but a thicker gun is going to make a bulge so this favors the autolaoder and one with the single stack magazine feature at that.

2. I would say the grip length is next up. shorter being easier to hide(but only the svelty are going to be troubled with hiding a long grip).

3. Length is easiest to hide as the gun can be raised up alittle and the shirt lengthened alittle bit.

When we look at the new pistols we notice new designs are diametrically opposed to these required paramaters of gun dimensions for the purpose of concealement(many of these pistols are short and short but THICK, the stubornest dimension to hide).

Next is to have a carry system which allows a quick way to access and grip the handle and consistantly take a firing grip at that.

And once the gun is brought out it should be as easy as possible to get an accurate hit, and fast too, this favors the FEATURE of the single action trigger. And also some measure of safety for carrying in single action that is fast like the 1911. As much safety as possibile until it gets in the way(the DA first shot gets in the way and is a stupid solution to the safety question).

And now once the bullet is released it needs to have a adequate penetration.

And now after all these conditions are met we can square the bore for more bullet diameter until we compromize to much on the other FEATURES.

(And if sigarms would rip the decocker out of the p245 and put in a spring loaded thumbsafetycatch which also locks the slide it would be a much better pistol).

Hasher
12-17-2003, 05:48 PM
For me, reliability is the primary consideration. If it won't work every time, why carry.
Second is effectiveness, which includes accuracy and caliber/load. If it won't stop the BG, why use it.
Third is concealability, which usually in my case (I'm 5'7" and 155#) is controlled by thickness (or if prefered, thinness). If I can't make it invisible, it isn't CCW.
Fourth is the type of gun. In warm weather I usually carry a Sig P239 but this time of year I mostly have my Kimber TLE IWB or occasionally a BHP OWB depending on what I am wearing.

Important things in a carry gun....Hmmmmm.

Reliability

Reliability Reliability.

Did I mention reliability???

Hasher

jacketch
12-17-2003, 06:07 PM
Important things in a carry gun....Hmmmmm.

Reliability

Reliability Reliability.

Did I mention reliability???

Hasher

LOL, My most reliable gun is a 12 ga Winchester single shot :D
In 76 years it has never misfired. I don't think I'll carry it any time soon.

Random
12-17-2003, 09:14 PM
There seems to be some consensus at the 30,000 foot level. Now... what do you think makes a gun reliable?

Charles Rives
12-18-2003, 02:25 AM
There seems to be some consensus at the 30,000 foot level. Now... what do you think makes a gun reliable?

The design/make/model needs a proven track record of actual use in rough field environments. So, I look for a make and model that's been around for at least a decade and in general issue to a large military or police organization that's actually deployed the weapon routinely in field conditions during that time.

1911s, great they've been in the trenches since WWI.
Beretta's, super, they've been in general issue since the mid-1980's.
Glocks & SIGs aside from being issued by the millions to cops around the world, dozens of armies (with battle records like Isreal) have these as their first choice weapons.
S&W revolvers . . . Again, a real exists track record for those things.

I'll share one lesson I learned with a fortunate outcome. I was looking for a pistol in the late-1980's. So, I heard all of this good stuff in the gun press about the S&W FBI 10mm. I thought, the FBI wouldn't buy that without thoroughly testing it. I'll take advantage of all of their research and buy a S&W auto with a frame mounted decocker myself. Just like the FBI's guns mine broke after about 5000 rounds. S&W fixed it but I never trusted it again. That's why I demand the 10-year track history of general issue for my working guns.

Once I've settled on the make and model and shelled out the bucks for one, I want to know that I didn't get that 0.01% gun out of a 99.9% successful design.

I don't do any formal testing of the gun for reliability but I do keep a small notebook in my rangebag. When I have problems with a gun, I make notes and try to determine the frequency and parameters of the failures. Also, as a handloader, I will take one evening and make up a batch of ammo pushing the limits of the caliber for overall length and bullet design and light charge weight. A gun that feeds and shoots short nosed semi-wadcutters seated short or a long bullet seated a little long and reliably shoots absolutely minimally charged target loads provides some comfort when you know that you would only really load it with good quality duty ammo.

I consider the gun to be an unknow until it's had a few thousand rounds of (range fodder) ammo through it and a few hundred rounds of duty ammo. Then, I will make the subjective call of reliable or not.

Chuck

Ragin Cajun
12-18-2003, 06:59 AM
It "thin" is necessary, a P7M8 is for you. The ambi mag release is delightful as well. Not to worry about "drop free" with P7, it propells them out.

Bruce Eimer
12-18-2003, 02:29 PM
There seems to be some consensus at the 30,000 foot level. Now... what do you think makes a gun reliable?

Random,

Returning to your original question . . . .

IMHO, the essential factors are, in the this order:

#1. RELIABILITY & SAFETY -- Otherwise you have a hunk of metal.

A -- Safety: Glock is safe. So is SIG. HK is very safe as is SW's TSW pistols with their safety/decockers and magazine disconnectors.

B -- For me, I don't love cleaning guns more than I absolutely have to, SO, I like a gun that will shoot and shoot and shoot. That's Glock and SIG, and HK.

C -- It must not be ammo sensitive!!!

#2. HOW IT FEELS IN MY HAND WHEN I HOLD IT AND SHOOT IT.

I like the "feel" of my Glocks, Sigs, HK, SW 4563TSW and 4566TSW, Kimber 1911, and Browning Hi Power. I like the way they point.

#3. HOW COMFORTABLE IT IS TO CARRY CONCEALED.

A -- The smaller guns, in serious calibers, like my Kahr MK9 and MK40, conceal the best. But they are not as much up there in criteria #s 1 and 2, in my experience. They are good guns however and have their place in my lifestyle -- deep concealment.

B -- Glock and Sig for me win in BOTH categories # 1 and 2. The Hi Power and 1911 are more ammo sensitive and need more care.
HK USP Compacts are GREAT, but I find they are a wee bit less comfortably concealable. The SW TSWs are great too.

So -- in conclusion, for me, and this is just me, I am willing to carry a bit less comfortably (i.e., sacrifice some physical comfort), for being able to feel more comforted with what I am carrying.

I'll tell you what -- when I carry a sub-caliber (a .32 or .380), or a SW .38 SP 5-shot J-frame (great gun!), I don't feel as COMFORTED, while I do feel physically morte comfortable.

So, it is a trade-off. Nothin is for free.

Bruce Eimer

Bruce Eimer
12-18-2003, 02:34 PM
Random,

Returning to your original question . . . .

IMHO, the essential factors are, in the this order:

#1. RELIABILITY & SAFETY -- Otherwise you have a hunk of metal.

A -- Safety: Glock is safe. So is SIG. HK is very safe as is SW's TSW pistols with their safety/decockers and magazine disconnectors.

B -- For me, I don't love cleaning guns more than I absolutely have to, SO, I like a gun that will shoot and shoot and shoot. That's Glock and SIG, and HK.

C -- It must not be ammo sensitive!!!

#2. HOW IT FEELS IN MY HAND WHEN I HOLD IT AND SHOOT IT.

I like the "feel" of my Glocks, Sigs, HK, SW 4563TSW and 4566TSW, Kimber 1911, and Browning Hi Power. I like the way they point.

#3. HOW COMFORTABLE IT IS TO CARRY CONCEALED.

A -- The smaller guns, in serious calibers, like my Kahr MK9 and MK40, conceal the best. But they are not as much up there in criteria #s 1 and 2, in my experience. They are good guns however and have their place in my lifestyle -- deep concealment.

B -- Glock and Sig for me win in BOTH categories # 1 and 2. The Hi Power and 1911 are more ammo sensitive and need more care.
HK USP Compacts are GREAT, but I find they are a wee bit less comfortably concealable. The SW TSWs are great too.

So -- in conclusion, for me, and this is just me, I am willing to carry a bit less comfortably (i.e., sacrifice some physical comfort), for being able to feel more comforted with what I am carrying.

I'll tell you what -- when I carry a sub-caliber (a .32 or .380), or a SW .38 SP 5-shot J-frame (great gun!), I don't feel as COMFORTED, while I do feel physically morte comfortable.

So, it is a trade-off. Nothin is for free.

Bruce Eimer

P.S. --

The gun I reach for most automatically is my Glock 27 (highly concealable and substantial cartridge -- .40 SW). Next is my Sig P239 in .40 SW.

These pieces are reliable, shootable, light, concealable, and trustworthy.

IN the end, if you have a quality gun in a substantial caliber, it doesn't really matter which gun you are carrying -- it's a matter of personal preference.

BRUCE EIMER

Poohgyrr
12-24-2003, 09:43 PM
I dunno that I can really do this justice with a short answer....

I absolutely do want the most accuracy, power, and speed that I can get.

If I can get picky, I'd say "So whatever does this is good, going by all the rules, policies, how much is in my checkbook, etc..., that I have to obey."

Reliability, grip, trigger, power, physical size, and "my abilities" all are important. For me, I reach first for a Hi Power, Glock, or Smith revolver, not necessarily in that order. That's when I can't reach for a longarm. :D

And of course, different folks do better with different pistols.