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Gabe Suarez
09-17-2010, 02:18 PM
How do you carry your gear?

jamgusmc
09-17-2010, 02:21 PM
I have two carry methods to use. The ole standby "Y harness" and web belt, and a "Eagle Tac Vest". I only have one pic of it, I am in it, if I post it no one say a word to me.

jamgusmc
09-17-2010, 02:27 PM
http://marinephotos.togetherweserved.com/130796.jpg

Gabe Suarez
09-17-2010, 02:28 PM
Post it. I am actually experimenting with an LBE belt lately. I like to do alot of running around on foot in the AZ back country and I gotta say a chest rig is not optimal for this. Jury is still out.

jamgusmc
09-17-2010, 02:32 PM
The black belt you see at the bottom is an Uncle mikes duty belt and holster on it with thumb break for carry. Its comfortable, not sure about how its gonna feel if I do more then patrol the neighborhood. Thats why I have the Y harness set up too. I have two mags per pouch on the vest, they are tight but do come out fast as I reload. I need a drop pouch still.

fldback
09-17-2010, 02:51 PM
Help me out here. Why would anyone have anything to say about that picture?

jamgusmc
09-17-2010, 02:53 PM
Help me out here. Why would anyone have anything to say about that picture?
1. I am not at my fighting weight
2. I am not a pretty boy.
3. no clue but decided to head off all snide comments before hand.
4. Not an AK??
5. Post ban config (Mass. here)

Lets go guys, Gabe needs some pics to see what your doing, post it up.

Chris Upchurch
09-17-2010, 02:57 PM
1. I am not at my fighting weight
2. I am not a pretty boy.
3. no clue but decided to head off all snide comments before hand.
4. Not an AK??
5. Post ban config (Mass. here)

6. Using a 3-point sling

;)

Clint B
09-17-2010, 02:58 PM
You might consider a MOLLE vest. Its good support without the chaffing of a pistol belt. I use one for my heavy rig. 10 bucks for the vest.


http://i706.photobucket.com/albums/ww62/clintberg/th_DSCN1136.jpg (http://s706.photobucket.com/albums/ww62/clintberg/?action=view&current=DSCN1136.jpg)

cco45acp
09-17-2010, 03:02 PM
Gabe,

What were the shortfalls you found with the chest rig?

jamgusmc
09-17-2010, 03:03 PM
6. Using a 3-point sling

;)
Ouch... it works good enough.... should I go back to 2pointing it?

BigEd63
09-17-2010, 03:06 PM
I've no pics but in hot weather (dry or humid) while on foot I've come to like a belt and "H"suspenders.

Years back I had a rig made of an old surplus nylon H Harness clipped to a BAR belt. It also had a pair of extra cargo pouches attached to the back of the H-harness via their nyon web slots on their backs.

These days I've been kicking around the idea of a MOLLE type belt wide enough for 3 rows of webbing, with light padding.

Plus attachment points for an optional H-Harness with MOLLE points up front high from shoulders down to mid torso. And maybe a MOLLE panel on the upper back or at least more MOLE attachment points down the straps.

This would give much more options than my old rig.

Chest rigs are decent to use for some mechinized ops plus some urban ones but I wonder about their overall balance on going up and down very steep terrain.

Clint B
09-17-2010, 03:11 PM
1. I am not at my fighting weight
2. I am not a pretty boy.
3. no clue but decided to head off all snide comments before hand.
4. Not an AK??
5. Post ban config (Mass. here)


Lets go guys, Gabe needs some pics to see what your doing, post it up.

6. And you still watch VHS (Im not judging you though:D)

jamgusmc
09-17-2010, 03:13 PM
6. And you still watch VHS (Im not judging you though:D)
Post a pic of your gear funny man.. :p

blueflu
09-17-2010, 03:14 PM
Cross draw set up is taking some getting used to. I was using a good old USGI H Harness and belt with a drop leg holster.

I like the vest & belt I can add a three day pack and a couple of canteens on the blet. Need to get a dump pouch for it still though.
It has the MOLE web on the back for all kinds of options.
3 AK mags will fit or 6 AR mags, it has 6 pistol mag pouches. I use a few of them for other stuff.

Ryan Acuff
09-17-2010, 03:23 PM
I've been playing with one for the last year and prefer it to the chest rig; however, it can be supplemented with a chest rig and/or plate carrier.

The belt is an ATS padded molle "warbelt", but the inner belt, M4 mag pouches, and suspenders are Blue Force Gear. The pistol pouches are ICE and the dump pouch is a modified 5.11.

I'm in the process of tweaking it though. I've got a new dump pouch and I need a double molle pouch that'll take my AK mags as well as the M4's. The triple pouch is too much weight on the belt, a double would be better and more on a chest rig if needed.

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs320.ash2/60045_160943663923220_100000227619192_546776_17159 66_n.jpg

Ryan Acuff
09-17-2010, 03:33 PM
Gabe,

What were the shortfalls you found with the chest rig?

Me personally, I don't like anything on or around my chest and back. When running, they are pretty uncomfortable and unbalancing (for me). It seems like gear always has a little flop and either bangs into the insides of your arms, interferes with your stuff on your waist line, or feels like it's chopping me in the throat. Granted, if I need to carry a lot of crap, I get over it. But for quick and light weight wear I like the padded MOLLE belt.

Dan-O
09-17-2010, 04:03 PM
Gents,
There is so much good load bearing stuff out there now with MOLLE all over everything that you can configure this stuff any way imaginable.

Tailor it to what you will be doing.

Long range Patrolling and rural recon are best served with high ventilation H harnesses and light weight hybrid vests. (The country that issued the most functional one ever was the Brits. Soldier 95 system I believe)
For heavy ass loads, nothing beats a heavily padded H Harness.
In high humidity, the less contact you have with your body and especially your underarms, the better.

Tight War belts with one mag and a pistol and are cool for classes and door kicking but can be a PITA for long walks in the field and dont offer a ton of carry capacity
They have a place for sure, this is a place that kind of has overlap with a traditional Military LBE kinda thing.


Full vests are fine over armor but IMHO, suck for everything else and offer no benifit except for looking like 90's SWAT or maybe you find em cheap on ebay.

Armor carriers with MOLLE all over are cool too if you need armor and load bearing. Make sure they are as balanced as you can make them so you dont feel like a weeble wobble all the time.

Chest rigs are excellent GP rigs and excell where you have to wear a big ruck or in a vehicle. Worn alone for long periods, some complain of lower back discomfort and hence the preference for hybrid rigs that counterbalance the front with the back by adding storage or hydration.

rottonman
09-17-2010, 04:12 PM
for long range or many days out i love a simple chest rig with only three mags in front then i can put a good size internal frame back pack over it.
my pistol on a thigh rig. but i do not care for the thigh rigs though. need to find a place for it on the chest rig or the pack. work in progress

then i have a set up for short term stuff. this is for .308 only. it is actually from a medics rig. i have mag pouches on the chest and on the belt. i would post pics but it never lets me. sorry, new to this pc stuff.

then i have a military vest with web belt set up for ar-15.

for ak i have the insurgent rig and a simple pack to go over it. it is kept in my car for a bug home setup. food water ammo, more ammo and pistols and ammo.

Clint B
09-17-2010, 04:29 PM
I much prefer a simple rack over the vests for most things too. I set my vest up mainly for the butt-pack, bush knife, extra 1st Aid gear etc.
Heres my rack.

Going to date myself here a bit. Back when we were still being issued the LCEs we would cut the metal clips out and replace them with 550 cord tied to the pistol belt. Not sure what attachment options you would have with an old school LCE and a MOLLE belt.


http://i706.photobucket.com/albums/ww62/clintberg/th_DSCN1138.jpg (http://s706.photobucket.com/albums/ww62/clintberg/?action=view&current=DSCN1138.jpg)





for long range or many days out i love a simple chest rig with only three mags in front then i can put a good size internal frame back pack over it.
my pistol on a thigh rig. but i do not care for the thigh rigs though. need to find a place for it on the chest rig or the pack. work in progress

then i have a set up for short term stuff. this is for .308 only. it is actually from a medics rig. i have mag pouches on the chest and on the belt. i would post pics but it never lets me. sorry, new to this pc stuff.

then i have a military vest with web belt set up for ar-15.

for ak i have the insurgent rig and a simple pack to go over it. it is kept in my car for a bug home setup. food water ammo, more ammo and pistols and ammo.

Chris Upchurch
09-17-2010, 04:32 PM
Ouch... it works good enough.... should I go back to 2pointing it?

Rather than tie up Gabe's thread talking about slings, I've started a new thread on the subject (http://warriortalk.com/showthread.php?p=1024029).

AmericanWarrior
09-17-2010, 04:44 PM
I've been playing with one for the last year and prefer it to the chest rig; however, it can be supplemented with a chest rig and/or plate carrier.

The belt is an ATS padded molle "warbelt", but the inner belt, M4 mag pouches, and suspenders are Blue Force Gear. The pistol pouches are ICE and the dump pouch is a modified 5.11.

I'm in the process of tweaking it though. I've got a new dump pouch and I need a double molle pouch that'll take my AK mags as well as the M4's. The triple pouch is too much weight on the belt, a double would be better and more on a chest rig if needed.

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs320.ash2/60045_160943663923220_100000227619192_546776_17159 66_n.jpg

I want to do something like this...

I went with a set up like this for two deployments now, some mods made for dismounting with 240B though

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs705.snc4/62573_1523639683801_1018872667_31529351_975744_n.j pg

Gabe Suarez
09-17-2010, 04:47 PM
My POV is that of what might be termed, back woods, long range, partisan ops. In other wortds, on foot, fast and light. I will grab a rifle and my gear and go off for a ten mile stretch. Unless I am carrying a very heavy ruck, a chest rig leaves me smoked at the end of the day.

I have talked to some LRS guys that know more than I about LBEs and they tell me that you want the weight as low around your waist and hips as possible. The higher the weight, the more fatiguing it is.

Chest rigs seem to be intended more for vehicle borne ops than for ground pounding. Not to say chest rigs are bad, but I am looking for something better for me...and maybe even to suggest in the HRO family of classes. I want to reiterate that this is NOT for urban ops or covert ops. This is for crawling in the weeds.

Maybe some of the LRS guys can comment.

chad newton
09-17-2010, 05:35 PM
My POV is that of what might be termed, back woods, long range, partisan ops. In other wortds, on foot, fast and light. I will grab a rifle and my gear and go off for a ten mile stretch. Unless I am carrying a very heavy ruck, a chest rig leaves me smoked at the end of the day.

I have talked to some LRS guys that know more than I about LBEs and they tell me that you want the weight as low around your waist and hips as possible. The higher the weight, the more fatiguing it is.

Chest rigs seem to be intended more for vehicle borne ops than for ground pounding. Not to say chest rigs are bad, but I am looking for something better for me...and maybe even to suggest in the HRO family of classes. I want to reiterate that this is NOT for urban ops or covert ops. This is for crawling in the weeds.

Maybe some of the LRS guys can comment.

I think you have tried dam near everything, what are you thinking? Belt & suspenders? Mabey, I see a chest rig being an issue but compared to a sneakey bag set up or somthing simalar on a belt I just dont see that being very comfortable, if you arnt balenced and digging into your sides and ass. But I dont know. Insurgents rig, if it supports your mission, light not to much ammo, mabey a belt setup with dropleg holster and somwhere to hang your dump pouch. You can still run any size pack you want, any still take it off and not be attached to the rest of your setup. I dont know.

Ryan Acuff
09-17-2010, 06:01 PM
Gabe,

This is why I like the padded MOLLE belts and suspender. It holds all of my 1st line gear that I have to have all the time and is light weight:

pistol and mags
field knife
a few rifle mags
dump pouch
Leatherman tool

I can wear mine exclusively on it's own or in conjunction with armor/chest rig etc. On the plus side, I'm used to wearing a similar belt set up at work 8-12 hours a day, everyday.

I opted for a low ride duty holster like the one on my duty belt. It is lower than the top of the belt and clears my two external armor carriers, so no need for a thigh holster, which I despise either way.

Dan-O
09-17-2010, 06:02 PM
My POV is that of what might be termed, back woods, long range, partisan ops. In other wortds, on foot, fast and light. I will grab a rifle and my gear and go off for a ten mile stretch. Unless I am carrying a very heavy ruck, a chest rig leaves me smoked at the end of the day.

I have talked to some LRS guys that know more than I about LBEs and they tell me that you want the weight as low around your waist and hips as possible. The higher the weight, the more fatiguing it is.

Chest rigs seem to be intended more for vehicle borne ops than for ground pounding. Not to say chest rigs are bad, but I am looking for something better for me...and maybe even to suggest in the HRO family of classes. I want to reiterate that this is NOT for urban ops or covert ops. This is for crawling in the weeds.

Maybe some of the LRS guys can comment.


My comment:
Lightweight,lightly padded (1/8 foam) H suspenders with padded low contact lightweight MOLLE belt.
Hydration option that is quick in and out so you could have it but take it off if un needed.
If you are doing ten miles in the bush without water, you are a better man than I sir.

Increase padding in harness system as weight goes up unless wearing armor where it does F**k all.

chad newton
09-17-2010, 06:04 PM
My comment:
Lightweight,lightly padded (1/8 foam) H suspenders with padded low contact lightweight MOLLE belt.
Hydration option that is quick in and out so you could have it but take it off if un needed.
If you are doing ten miles in the bush without water, you are a better man than I sir.

Increase padding in harness system as weight goes up unless wearing armor where it does F**k all.

I know hes a better man the me.

Bonnot
09-17-2010, 06:13 PM
I've been thinking about picking this up from Sotech lately:
http://i597.photobucket.com/albums/tt59/hagoes/Hybrid%20Hydration%20Harness/l.jpg (http://weww.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1917426)
Sotech also makes another LBE called the Sniper hydration Harness that could fit the bill as well.

vlazlow
09-17-2010, 06:13 PM
Old syle LBE for me. The first picture is me wearing the rig back in the day, 1988, and the second is the same rig set up for SUT last Dec. I was able to find some AK ALICE pouches and used a surefire helmet light on the left shoulder.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v174/vlazlow/me-1.jpg?t=1284772207

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v174/vlazlow/DSC01725.jpg?t=1284772290

ScottT
09-17-2010, 07:40 PM
This is a great opportunity. Why not do just what Gabe is talking about? Grab a rifle and your gear and take it on a ten mile hike. We could all probably learn something important.

Why not plan it somewhere in your area, somewhere you actually could envision going?

Combat Medic
09-17-2010, 07:56 PM
where can you go on a 10 mile hike with your AK?

chad newton
09-17-2010, 07:59 PM
where can you go on a 10 mile hike with your AK?

Midle of no ware.

Ma Deuce
09-17-2010, 08:07 PM
I served (and humped) through three versions of issue LBE and well into the choose-your-own era of chest rigs and drop holsters.

For field use with or without a ruck, you just can't beat the old school.

Loose, low fitting cartridge belt and H-harness. Pistol holster with a flap.... keeps the shit out of your sidearm. Belt mounted mags and BOK's, knife, etc.

The only really innovative thing of worth that has happened recently is the Camelbak. While it's useful to have a canteen, too, I wouldn't leave home without mine

pilgrim
09-17-2010, 09:02 PM
I've been thinking about picking this up from Sotech lately:
http://i597.photobucket.com/albums/tt59/hagoes/Hybrid%20Hydration%20Harness/l.jpg (http://weww.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1917426)


Very nice! I think this is the way many of us will be trying soon. The chest rigs are great for limited use. But if we want a second-line system to LIVE off of in a rural environment for an extended period, something with an open front would seen more appropriate.

I'll tell you what, I'm not going back to ALICE! ALICE was good 30 years ago, but it's time to move on. I'll do the LBV-88, before doing ALICE again.

The Blackhawk S.T.R.I.K.E is what I was going to try.

http://www.blackhawk.com//CatalogImages/18-53-IMG1_L.jpeg

But the SOTech Sniper thing on the SOTech site, is making me re-consider.

Gabe Suarez
09-18-2010, 12:09 AM
Those of you who've been out to our AO know there are more places to run drills like this than you could visit in a year. And I do bring water...just not the freaking holiday inn on my back.

EDELWEISS
09-18-2010, 12:15 AM
I started with the old canvas H-suspenders and pouches, then moved to the nylon Y-supenders and pouches. The canvas "H" rig was more comfortable but got soggy when wet and the canvas would fade after awhile. The nylon "Y" gear didnt fade but seemed louder when brushing against foilage. Out of the two Id opt for the canvas "H" suspenders. There used to be somebody selling AK pouches specifically made for ALICE gear.

Ive also worn British pattern 37 gear. The cross straps and "Universal or Bren" pouches were comfortable once properly adjusted. I could never get the small pack with the "L braces" to stay hooked on to the Bren pouches, so the pack tended to shift; but it was an easy fix once you noticed it and I used a seperate strap for the canteen to make it more accessable.

I worn Pattern 58 for a short while. It SUCKED in a vehicle because of the kidney pouches; but on foot I didnt find it too bad. I did like the bayonet being attached to the pouch. Anthony has much more experience with it than I do, and I think I recall he wasnt fond of it.

Im currently trying to find a good vest set up. IM looking at vests from LBT and FMCO. I THINK Id prefer a vest that has the pouches permanetly attached rather than MOLLE; but Im open to options. I know this will raise some eyebrows but I dont see a huge need for a pistol UNLESS its suppressed OR its used in conjunction with a PCC of atleast the same caliber and preferably the same magazine so a built in holster isnt high on my needs list.

Ive never felt comfortable wearing a chest rig, it feels too much like a Bra???? I know they are supposed to be better in vehicles and let you lay flater in the prone. My current grab n go is a sneaky bag on one side and another bag on the other side for extra gear, water and as a dump pouch.

The FIRST question is how much you want to carry? How many mags? How much water, in canteens or camelback? Food? Poucho? etc???

Next is what weapon you are using? An AK or AR is pretty much a wash but with something like a RPK theres the extra mags to worry about. Im currently using a PCC almost exclusively, but my AO is almost exclusively urban/suburban.

http://www.antipersonnel.net/fmco/images1/CLBV001.JPG
FMCO COMBAT VEST

http://www.antipersonnel.net/fmco/images3/CSV001.JPG
FMCO SURVIVAL VEST

The Searcher
09-18-2010, 12:37 AM
As a couple of people have mentioned there is no substitute for actually wearing your gear out and about in your AO.

I tried a bunch of different stuff and what I found works best is a setup much like the one vlazlow posted pics of. I use it for boonie crashing, exploring and hunting.

It's flexible. You can attach or unattach a pistol holster, knife sheath, extra canteens, knife, ammo pouches of different sizes and configurations etc.

It is not too hot unlike vests.

Unlike vests I do not get a backache when walking around wearing it.

As always, YMMV

If you want to lay prone you can unbuckle the belt and spread it open so that you are flat on the ground with nothing digging into you.

DiamondD
09-18-2010, 12:46 AM
I served (and humped) through three versions of issue LBE and well into the choose-your-own era of chest rigs and drop holsters.

For field use with or without a ruck, you just can't beat the old school.

Loose, low fitting cartridge belt and H-harness. Pistol holster with a flap.... keeps the shit out of your sidearm. Belt mounted mags and BOK's, knife, etc.

The only really innovative thing of worth that has happened recently is the Camelbak. While it's useful to have a canteen,
too, I wouldn't leave home without mine


I'll second this post. Although I do use and really like Camelbacks for hydration, I still tend to carry a GI canteen nestled in a canteen cup to facilitate heating/cooking water and food.

SUA SPONTE
09-18-2010, 02:06 AM
When it comes to load carriage in a rural environment I am still a fan of the LBE in one form or another over a chest rig in most situations. The simple belt with suspenders and pouches allows me to carry the type of equipment that I require for that environment without the restrictive feel of a full vest or chest rig.

Over the years I have carried countless variations of load carrying kit from ALICE, to MOLLE I&II and now plate carriers and body armor integrated systems. As we have said here many times before, select the right tools for the job. Selecting a Load Bearing System is no different. I have found that pretty much everyone has their own idea about what is the best system or set-up, most of those ideas are influenced by:
· Body type; or how you are built
· Items to be carried; ammo, medical, water, etc.
· Primary and secondary weapons choices
· Personal experience; military, LE, hunters etc.
· Economic factors; tactical nylon can cost a good bit of money
· Environment; the operational environment also plays a huge role, jungle vs. desert vs. mountain will all have somewhat different requirements.
· And last but certainly not least; MISSION, MISSION,MISSION

Having said that there are a few things that I have found personally to be common across the spectrum.

Keep it light; or at least as light as possible without sacrificing capabilities.
Keep it tight; not so tight that it restricts freedom of movement, comfort, or circulation, but if it is too loose an LBE tends to rattle and snag.
Keep it simple, but not too simple. For example; a pouch inside a pouch inside a pouch is never a good thing in the real world, but everything dumped into one big bag is not optimal either.
Keep it centered; the more evenly distributed and closer the load is to your center of gravity the less awkward it will be to carry. Allowing for more fluid motion, and less physical effort to carry.
Keep it quiet; I know this should go with-out saying but ensure that nothing rattles or clunks when moving. The simple jog around test works well to identify any potental issues. Very few systems are compleatly silent, but use your best judgment as to what an acceptable amount of noise from your equipment is. Here are two of my LBE’s. The first is one set-up to support a bolt action SWS. The components are:

ATS warbelt
Custom inner belt (with a life-support tie-in and cobra buckle)
2-point cross back suspenders, “these things are soo comfortable and offer outstanding freedom of movement”
2 x small ammo pouches for speed loaders
Single full flap M4 pouch works great as a full flap holster.
Small dump pouch (perfect for a nalgean bottle)
Large general purpose pouch works as a small buttpack
Nalgean bottle pouch
Medium GP pouch
Double pistol pouch

SUA SPONTE
09-18-2010, 02:14 AM
The second rig is the same harness that Pilgrim was interested in an earlier in this thread. I carried it on one of my deployments to Afghanistan and was very pleased with its performance. It is made to allow the operator to carry a more robust load when needed but is still comfortable and offers pretty good freedom of movement.

I found it to be a very well balanced system and it allowed me to carry a significant amount of equipment and deadly goodies while tromping through the Afghan mountains.

The harness barrows many design features from the very popular Israeli load carrying system, and then adds the modularity of the MOLLE/PALS system.

Gabe if you are interested... this rig is available to you for a very very very good price! shoot me a pm if you want it.

Cheers
T

falightfighter
09-18-2010, 06:47 AM
SUA SPONTE,

What harness is the basis for your second set up?

pilgrim
09-18-2010, 07:13 AM
SUA SPONTE,

What harness is the basis for your second set up?

Blackhawk S.T.R.I.K.E.

My fear with the STRIKE harness, is that I wont be able to make it small enough to fit my Somalian sized frame.

I'm using a TT MAV One-Piece w/yoke right now, and closed up as small as it will go, it still hangs at the belt line!

I see that the S.O.Tech BLoCS system comes in 3 sizes, but didn't the STRIKE have a size choice at one time? I, of course, will need medium or small.

ScottT
09-18-2010, 07:23 AM
where can you go on a 10 mile hike with your AK?

You have to either have access to property or you have to be a little sneaky. If you live as I do, you could do both.

But it makes a lot of sense to try this out even if where you live you cannot do it openly. Be creative, be sneaky!:)

blackballed
09-18-2010, 07:26 AM
You have to either have access to property or you have to be a little sneaky. If you live as I do, you could do both.

But it makes a lot of sense to try this out even if where you live you cannot do it openly. Be creative, be sneaky!:)


Cut a 2 x 4 down and carry it? You might look a little odd in an LBE carrying a 2 to 3 foot 2 x 4, but it could work too.

Sort of a NOK gun?

ScottT
09-18-2010, 07:35 AM
Not exactly what I was thinking. But I can throw my sneaky bag over my shoulder and take a walk with my actual gear on me. It makes sense to try this out before you need it for real.

SUA SPONTE
09-18-2010, 07:42 AM
SUA SPONTE,

What harness is the basis for your second set up?

It is part of the Eagle MLCS (Maritime Load Carriage System) they don't sell it as a individual item, it rather comes as one of the components in a "dead hooker" sized bag with the rest of the system.

However the Blackhawk STRIKE LBE harness is very similar (nearly identical).

Pilgrim- The harness (blackwalk's also) is designed to be used without the back center panel to accommodate Somali size operators;). Honestly I wore it without the center panel most of the time as well and only used it when I needed the extra real estate.

Cheers
T

ScottT
09-18-2010, 07:43 AM
Listen up guys, it should not be all that uncommon for you to take a long walk. It is my custom to take a two hour walk a few times a week. Generally it is urban and at night. But sometimes it is rural with a rifle in hand. Either way, I am always armed and paying attention.

Anthony
09-18-2010, 07:55 AM
SUA SPONTE and a few others here have shown 'perfect' belt rigs IMHO.

The pattern '58 webbing that I used, has been mentioned. - It sucked when used as was intended.

After 'basic', we generally ditched the 'kidney pouches' and the poncho roll cover. (We kept the poncho, obviously.)

We got more water bottle pouches to keep our emergency rations in, and other stuff.
The water bottle pouches hung lower.

A belt, ammo pouches and pouches for water, rations etc, all hanging from the waist belt, nothing above it, plus a harness to suspend it all with.

When we are physical, a chest rig can restrict our breathing.
We might hike for miles with a ruc, and open our jackets and shirts, to cool our core body temperature, and have a heaving chest through exertion.
We don't want a chest rig with this type of activity.

We also want our chest and stomach to be free of pouches, so that we can lie down in the prone position for hours/days, - depending on our job?

A 'belt rig' allows a ruc to be carried. - Just keep it above the pouches of the 'belt rig'.

Chest rigs?

Great for sitting in vehicles, doing 'PSD'.

Otherwise, I have little use for them.

As a civilian, I like the idea of shoulder/sneaky bags.
This is what I have right now. - A 'so-so' bag made down here. - I need to get me a real sneaky bag, but fear it getting 'lost' in the mail. :(

Regards,
Anthony.

Anthony
09-18-2010, 08:04 AM
I am no longer running around, 'playing soldiers'. - Unfortunately. :(

But if I were, I would have a rig like 'SUA SPONTE' showed on post 39.

Others have shown similar rigs also.

I am using SUA SPONTE's example, but the other 'belt rigs' are great too.

Regards,
Anthony.

KentuckyRifle
09-18-2010, 09:19 AM
My POV is that of what might be termed, back woods, long range, partisan ops. In other wortds, on foot, fast and light. I will grab a rifle and my gear and go off for a ten mile stretch.

I am interested in the same thing, have recently been talking long walks through the Shoshone National Forest here in Wyoming. The idea is to have a setup that I can grab quickly and get out with, whether I am leaving the house or somewhere else, as I have been carrying it in the truck. I have a Condor backpack that I have been using, along with holsters, mag carriers, etc for my standard belt in the 5.11's or Blackhawk pants. My EDC is a G17 on my side and a G26 on my ankle. When I PLAN to go to the mountains I carry my G20 on my hip and move the 17 to my ankle. 2 mags for the primary in a nylon holster on my belt, plus one extra mag in the handgun holster.

I have been carrying a Condor backpack with extra mags for the 17, 50 rounds of 9mm ammo, mags for the rifle I carry (either an AR or a PTR-91), along with matches, lighters, first aid, a tarp, 100' of paracord, extra socks, gloves, and and extra fleece jacket. Since I have the room I have also thrown in a Ruger MKIII and 120 rounds of 22LR.

I want a rig that I can get flat with pretty easily, and that balances well when walking and climbing the mountains. The Condor pack comes off pretty quickly and easily, and nothing else that I carry hinders me from getting flat easily. The thing I DONT like is that it isn't set up well for fighting, more like E and E or Shoot and Scoot. I would like some way to carry up to 6 rifle mags quickly accessible, but retain the ability to get low and move fast. Concealment or blending in to an urban crowd is not needed, as the closest town of 50,000 is 3 hours away.

I also need a good sling for my PTR. That sucker is pretty heavy in comparison to an AR, and I want something that will carry the rifle close to me so it isn't swinging around catching on branches and such. Think more long range patrol than fighting sling, as it would be unslung for fighting.

BillyOblivion
09-18-2010, 10:02 AM
Ouch... it works good enough.... should I go back to 2pointing it?

Do you use the sling for shooting support? I.E. sling around the upper arm like they taught (in 1985) in Marine Corps basic?

Do you shoot with the sling still around your body?

SUA SPONTE
09-18-2010, 10:05 AM
I have a Condor backpack that I have been using, along with holsters, mag carriers, etc for my standard belt in the 5.11's or Blackhawk pants. My EDC is a G17 on my side and a G26 on my ankle. When I PLAN to go to the mountains I carry my G20 on my hip and move the 17 to my ankle.

:eek:.......you put a Glock 17 on your ankle? I'm not judging but in my experience that would be a pretty big hindrance on a (for real) over land movement.

Cheers
T

BillyOblivion
09-18-2010, 10:06 AM
If you are doing ten miles in the bush without water, you are a better man than I sir.


10 miles at his pace? That's what, 30, 40 minutes? No big deal :)

BillyOblivion
09-18-2010, 10:14 AM
Cut a 2 x 4 down and carry it? You might look a little odd in an LBE carrying a 2 to 3 foot 2 x 4, but it could work too.

Sort of a NOK gun?

AK:
http://www.amazon.com/Bar-F2002W-9-Pound-Weighted/dp/B000BBADUA/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=sporting-goods&qid=1284829971&sr=8-2

RPK:
http://www.amazon.com/Bar-F2004W-15-Pound-Weighted/dp/B000BBCM4K/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=sporting-goods&qid=1284829971&sr=8-5

You look silly, but the Sheriff won't send a whole bunch of deputies around to talk to you about it.

jamgusmc
09-18-2010, 10:14 AM
Do you use the sling for shooting support? I.E. sling around the upper arm like they taught (in 1985) in Marine Corps basic?

Do you shoot with the sling still around your body?
I havent used a sling like a tourniquet in a long time... I hated that. I have practiced using the three point sling to carry the weapon until needed, works pretty good shooting still around me, but I can go back to a 2 point sling I guess.

Combat Medic
09-18-2010, 10:29 AM
You have to either have access to property or you have to be a little sneaky. If you live as I do, you could do both.

But it makes a lot of sense to try this out even if where you live you cannot do it openly. Be creative, be sneaky!:)

If you need a hiking buddy....i would not be bothered if you called me.

jon

Anthony
09-18-2010, 10:36 AM
:eek:.......you put a Glock 17 on your ankle? I'm not judging but in my experience that would be a pretty big hindrance on a (for real) over land movement.

Cheers
TMy thoughts exactly!

To be quite honest, an ankle rig is fine in a normal day to day, strolling environment.

Walking several hundred yards at most, at any one time.

But with serious land movement and/or hard walking, I don't want anything on my ankles.

Regards,
Anthony.

cco45acp
09-18-2010, 10:46 AM
I've thought about this a lot through the years. Was a time back in the era of dinosaurs that I did a good bit of dismounted patrolling training with old school Y harness LBE - that was all there was back then.

Our load out was two ALICE mag pouches for a total of six mags, a third ALICE pouch with a cleaning kit and a couple of other odds and ends in it, two 1 qt. canteens, one with a canteen cup and a first aid pouch on one of the suspender. Later I went to a even older school cotton H harness so I could use a butt pack

That was it. Where was our GPS and brick radio? They were in the science fiction segment of some smart guys brain cause there wasn't any of that stuff yet.

We wore the pistol belt very low just above where you know what attaches:D. Most of the time we moved with the belt unbuckled, some of us used a piece of 550 cord to gap the two sides of the buckle. Wearing the suspenders long and the belt low allowed us to wear an ALICE large pack with a ton of stuff in it without it riding on or over the stuff on the belt. Having the belt unbuckled or gapped with 550 cord allowed us to flop the pouches to either side and get very prone as well as open our tops for ventilation or having more room to add warm layers when it was cold.

Worked very well in my memory for carrying this load dismounted. Don't think it would have worked for the 14+ mag load outs a lot of guys in Iraq liked or working in vehicles where it would get hung up on a bunch of stuff.

Had a chance to wear Israeli "ephods" in field conditions. http://www.zfi-inc.com/NR/rdonlyres/A4FD9481-312D-4C0D-8A71-79E8EA1B5953/1882/TV77117709.jpg
I'll defer to Yoni and Ike on this but they seemed the best compromise for carrying heavy load outs, riding in vehicles, but still having to walk long distances on foot. The ones I had experience with were not compatible with rucks.

In Iraq, Level III+ body armor was mandatory and everyone just hung whatever they needed wherever they wanted on the MOLLE loops on the bady armor. Very few, mainly newbies, used any sort of harness that I saw.

Don't have much personal experience with chest rigs but as usual I have an opinion anyway. SOF and PSD in Iraq I think sort of bastardized the idea to their own specific needs - heavy loadout, operating in built-up areas out of helos or vehicles with little prospect of long dismounted moves. The modern rigs work well for this but aren't for light load long distance, duration foot movement in deserts, mountains or forests.

Originally I believe chest rigs as used by the Chinese and Vietnamese carried two or three AK mags or 10 or so SKS clips and were used to keep fighters agile for the final assault. I imagine they dumped all their heavy gear at their line of departure and did their final assault with just the chest rig and rifle.
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/ctd_images/lgprod/AKS-701.jpg
Sorry about the long post but this is an interesting topic for me and allows me to draw on my "old guyness"

KentuckyRifle
09-18-2010, 11:09 AM
My thoughts exactly!

To be quite honest, an ankle rig is fine in a normal day to day, strolling environment.

Walking several hundred yards at most, at any one time.

But with serious land movement and/or hard walking, and I do want anything on my ankles.

Regards,
Anthony.

Meh, I dont know. I carry it as a BUG while on duty for 40-50 hours per week, and anytime I am wearing pants I have one down there as a BUG even when off duty. I guess maybe I have just gotten used to it but it feels comfortable and I dont really notice it anymore. I should probably move up to carrying both around my waist, but the ankle gun conceals so much better that I hate to go away from it altogether.

I am thinking about heading up in the mountains this afternoon, I may try taking it off and seeing if I can tell that much difference, you guys have a lot more experience than me.

blackballed
09-18-2010, 01:28 PM
http://www.zfi-inc.com/NR/rdonlyres/A4FD9481-312D-4C0D-8A71-79E8EA1B5953/1882/TV77117709.jpg


Where can I get one?

cco45acp
09-18-2010, 02:51 PM
Blackballed,

Found this on a Google search

http://www.zahal.org/groups/combat-vests

Recommend you talk to Yoni, Ike, or one of the Israeli WTers before you buy. They may have some advice on sources or configurations.

Raven1911
09-18-2010, 05:12 PM
I've thought about this a lot through the years. Was a time back in the era of dinosaurs that I did a good bit of dismounted patrolling training with old school Y harness LBE - that was all there was back then.

Our load out was two ALICE mag pouches for a total of six mags, a third ALICE pouch with a cleaning kit and a couple of other odds and ends in it, two 1 qt. canteens, one with a canteen cup and a first aid pouch on one of the suspender. Later I went to a even older school cotton H harness so I could use a butt pack

That was it. Where was our GPS and brick radio? They were in the science fiction segment of some smart guys brain cause there wasn't any of that stuff yet.

We wore the pistol belt very low just above where you know what attaches:D. Most of the time we moved with the belt unbuckled, some of us used a piece of 550 cord to gap the two sides of the buckle. Wearing the suspenders long and the belt low allowed us to wear an ALICE large pack with a ton of stuff in it without it riding on or over the stuff on the belt. Having the belt unbuckled or gapped with 550 cord allowed us to flop the pouches to either side and get very prone as well as open our tops for ventilation or having more room to add warm layers when it was cold.

Worked very well in my memory for carrying this load dismounted. Don't think it would have worked for the 14+ mag load outs a lot of guys in Iraq liked or working in vehicles where it would get hung up on a bunch of stuff.

Had a chance to wear Israeli "ephods" in field conditions. http://www.zfi-inc.com/NR/rdonlyres/A4FD9481-312D-4C0D-8A71-79E8EA1B5953/1882/TV77117709.jpg
I'll defer to Yoni and Ike on this but they seemed the best compromise for carrying heavy load outs, riding in vehicles, but still having to walk long distances on foot. The ones I had experience with were not compatible with rucks.

In Iraq, Level III+ body armor was mandatory and everyone just hung whatever they needed wherever they wanted on the MOLLE loops on the bady armor. Very few, mainly newbies, used any sort of harness that I saw.

Don't have much personal experience with chest rigs but as usual I have an opinion anyway. SOF and PSD in Iraq I think sort of bastardized the idea to their own specific needs - heavy loadout, operating in built-up areas out of helos or vehicles with little prospect of long dismounted moves. The modern rigs work well for this but aren't for light load long distance, duration foot movement in deserts, mountains or forests.

Originally I believe chest rigs as used by the Chinese and Vietnamese carried two or three AK mags or 10 or so SKS clips and were used to keep fighters agile for the final assault. I imagine they dumped all their heavy gear at their line of departure and did their final assault with just the chest rig and rifle.
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/ctd_images/lgprod/AKS-701.jpg
Sorry about the long post but this is an interesting topic for me and allows me to draw on my "old guyness"


That first vest looks hotter than hell!

Ryan Acuff
09-18-2010, 07:35 PM
Yeah, might as well run a full armor carrier if you were going to wear that much gear around your upper body.

Bonnot
09-18-2010, 07:58 PM
I second what Ryan Acuff said. In my experience with running a rig like that, most of the weight is centered around your chest and puts alot of stress on your back and shoulders. Also worth mentioning is that going prone is more difficult and I can't seem to run as fast.
I really like Sua Sponte's first set up, its simple and light but still manages to hold the essentials. I'm interested in Sotech's Sniper harness because its made to do just that and not impede movement. They make two models, one that comes with a padded belt(referring to the picture I posted a page back) and one that is just a simple, light weight vest with a slim hydration pouch attached on the back and alot of real-estate.
I wish Dan-O would make one, in multicam of course.:dope:
B

blackballed
09-18-2010, 08:00 PM
Blackballed,

Found this on a Google search

http://www.zahal.org/groups/combat-vests

Recommend you talk to Yoni, Ike, or one of the Israeli WTers before you buy. They may have some advice on sources or configurations.

Sweet! Thank you, sir.

EDELWEISS
09-18-2010, 08:06 PM
Does anybody have as big a dislike of VELCRO, as I do? I guess its the wave of the future and I suppose I dont mind it in places I dont have to keep adjusting BUT on flaps of mag pouches Id prefer something else. Ive seen cloth tabs, snaps, and numerous types of plastic clips. My Blackberry case has a flap that secures with a magnet. That seems like it would have been a pretty good system with steel mags.

pilgrim
09-18-2010, 08:15 PM
It is part of the Eagle MLCS (Maritime Load Carriage System) they don't sell it as a individual item, it rather comes as one of the components in a "dead hooker" sized bag with the rest of the system.

However the Blackhawk STRIKE LBE harness is very similar (nearly identical).


Well I'll be dipped :eek: ! I had no idea that Eagle was the originator of this idea, Blackhawk apparently has copied it, so that an individual doesn't have to spend a months pay on the MLCS, just to get the belt and suspenders. Which it looks like I will have to do.

Sorry for the miss-information.

pilgrim
09-18-2010, 08:35 PM
The harness (blackwalk's also) is designed to be used without the back center panel to accommodate Somali size operators;). Honestly I wore it without the center panel most of the time as well and only used it when I needed the extra real estate.


Outstanding!

I was hoping this would be the case. I would not need the back panel anyway. Now...if I can just get the belt to come down small enough.

I can't help but wonder if this Blackhawk "LOAD BEARING SUSPENDERS/HARNESS" would be better than the ALICE set up, or not worth the trouble.

http://www.blackhawk.com//CatalogImages/18-37-IMG2.jpeg

This looks promising also. The Blackhawk LRAK RIFLEMAN KIT.

http://www.blackhawk.com//CatalogImages/18-708-IMG3_L.jpeg

Anyway, the chest rig ain't cutting it for me.

lightfighter
09-18-2010, 08:41 PM
Military Morons has reviewed a few different war belt set ups

Scroll down: http://militarymorons.com/equipment/firstline.html

Please delete if the link is inappropriate

pilgrim
09-18-2010, 09:15 PM
I'm interested in Sotech's Sniper harness because its made to do just that and not impede movement. They make two models, one that comes with a padded belt(referring to the picture I posted a page back) and one that is just a simple, light weight vest with a slim hydration pouch attached on the back and alot of real-estate.


Indeed it does looks slick.

Was able to get a pic.

http://specopstech.com/osc/images/shh_2.jpg

If carrying AR/AK mags with this rig, they would have to be placed awfully far back.

How do we get just the belt and suspender set up like you have pictured on post #28? I can't find it together on the S.O. Tech site. Is what you have pictured the belt and the Hellcat suspenders?

pilgrim
09-18-2010, 10:04 PM
This is a great opportunity. Why not do just what Gabe is talking about? Grab a rifle and your gear and take it on a ten mile hike. We could all probably learn something important.

Why not plan it somewhere in your area, somewhere you actually could envision going?

That is the blessing of living on this farm. I can just put on my gear, grab a rifle, and walk out the front door onto 100+ acres that is secure for me to use.

Not only that, I get to go locked and loaded with a good possibility of finding something that should be shot while I'm out.

I complain a lot about the severe heat, painful flora, and bleak landscape we have here on the 'family compound'. But being able to live on your own private 500 yard shooting range that also offers ample opportunity to test and evaluate gear under adverse conditions, is indeed a blessing I should not take for granted.

Thanks Scott for the reality check.

AmericanWarrior
09-18-2010, 10:39 PM
amazing post Sua Sponte!!

JasonS
09-19-2010, 10:43 AM
I can't find it together on the S.O. Tech site. Is what you have pictured the belt and the Hellcat suspenders?

I don't think they are selling the contoured "Hybrid Hydration Harness" on their site. The old version without the contoured belt can be purchased here: http://ustacticalsupply.com/sniperhydrationharness.aspx . You're probably best off contacting Phil from SnipersHide. His contact info is in his posts. If you do get some more details, please let me know as I'm somewhat interested my self.

Here's some more pics too:
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1842936
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1809914

Bonnot
09-19-2010, 04:28 PM
Thanks JasonS, you beat me to it. Apparently ustacticalsupply.com is suppose to add it to their website but they haven't done it yet. Contact Phil, I've always had good experiences with him and Sotech. To echo what Lightfighter posted, Militarymorons is always a good source for detailed gear reviews.

pilgrim
09-19-2010, 05:06 PM
This one of the ALICE LBE's I have. Just like the one I used at Army basic in the early 80's, except all material on this one was brand new.

http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/4584/1005625a.jpg

Made up with a standard belt, H style suspenders, 2 mag pouches, 2 canteen holders.

The suspenders have the metal hardware cut off and replaced with para-cord, mag pouches have the grenade holders cut off, canteen pouches contain the 'stove' and metal cup which make the canteen ride high. All ALICE clips have been replaced with TT MALICE clips. Took about a pound of metal off the LBE by removing the meat hooks and clips.

There is room for two more mag pouches in front of the two pictured if need be, and a UM-84 is added if a side-arm is to be carried.

Pic bellow after adding a Large ALICE pack to the mix.

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/3644/1005630.jpg

In order to get the pack frame to work with the LBE, I had to drill out the rivets of the frame, cut the frame shorter, and rivet it back together. Now it works together... kinda.

I hate this kit with a passion, but it does work.

yoni
09-19-2010, 05:06 PM
This is what I use and have used for years. I have two in my house that some how came to the USA from Israel. I like these better than the newer vest style as they allow better escape for heat.

I am old and didn't have plates for 95% of my time so I like the older styles.

yoni
09-19-2010, 05:09 PM
This is what was used for a front plate in later years.

pilgrim
09-19-2010, 06:04 PM
I think this is called the LBV-88. I got a couple of these used for about 10 dollars each. They appeared to be only slightly used.

http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/827/1005645.jpg

Are the mags supposed to be inserted bullets up... or down? I have the mags bullets pointing down.

I like the fact that you can still add mag and canteen pouches to the pistol belt with this set up like you do with the LBE, giving you a 18 mag possibility.

With a medium Alice pack added...

http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/9648/1005641d.jpg

The frame was shortened with this pack also so that it would work with my short back.

It was pretty hot when this pic was taken, and the LBV-88 was breathing well, keeping me fairly dry.

I don't like this set up either, but for 10 bucks, hey why not try it. My kids use these for play without the pistol belt. Works perfectly for airsoft and paintball also.

pilgrim
09-19-2010, 06:23 PM
I got this chest rig after months of agonizing debate.

Made by Eagle for SKD.

http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/6440/1005652d.jpg

I mostly like it. PMAGs seem to stay in it even though the center mags are not secured. Right side mag pouch is used as a holster sometimes with an optional thumb break attachment. The 4 G19 mags would be better placed on the side MOLLE than sticking way out in front like they are. Crossed strap design has it's problems as you can tell by the way the rig is tilted to the right in the pic.

I use this chest rig with a Source hydration system...

http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/8789/1005650.jpg

This set up is quick, slick, and inexpensive. Outstanding for riding around in the truck looking for trouble. Good to take a class with. But I'm not so sure I would want to wear it on a long patrol in a rural area.

There must be a better way.

ScottT
09-19-2010, 06:44 PM
Of course, I am not an "operator" or anything like that. I have a small Sneaky rifle fighting bag set up to go over my shoulder and ride on my left hip. With magazines in place it fits in the big pocket of my Sneaky Bag rifle case. So, for walking around, the rifle in the bag is fully secured and concealed.

On the ranch, the rifle comes out and I can sling on the bag and I am good to go. Now, I cannot carry 100lbs on my body, but I have what I think I need.

pilgrim
09-19-2010, 06:50 PM
I've had this Tactical Tailor MAV One Piece for a while.

http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/3581/1005646.jpg

Got it on sale because it was in Woodland camo. Ditched the shoulder cutting straps in favor of the comfy padded yoke, but now have to cinch the straps down almost as far as they will go to get a good fit, which means this thing is a bugger to get off. I put a admin pouch right dead center that holds light, Leatherman, compass, notebook, pen, lighter, TP, mini-binoculars, and whatever else. I run this with 12 mags mostly, but you can turn the mags, cinch the straps, and run it with 8. Mag pouches are very secure, but Velcro only. Putting the admin pouch in the center moves the Nalgene bottle holders further back making them hard to access. I've had some issues with the MALICE clips digging into my stomach, as around here all you usually have on is just a tee shirt.

Adding the TT 3 Day Pack...

http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/6134/10056392.jpg

This pack fits perfectly integrated with the MAV. Very comfortable, so comfortable one is tempted to overload it like I have by adding two more Nalgene bottle pouches to the sides of it, and two cleaning kit/spare parts pouches to the back.

This is my current 'go to' LBE, and I like it, but want something better.

Taylor
09-19-2010, 06:53 PM
Vietnam era US Gov't issue H suspenders and pistol belt.

cco45acp
09-19-2010, 07:26 PM
[QUOTE] Originally posted by YoniThis is what I use and have used for years. I have two in my house that some how came to the USA from Israel. I like these better than the newer vest style as they allow better escape for heat.

I am old and didn't have plates for 95% of my time so I like the older styles.
Attached Imageshttp://www.warriortalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=11179&stc=1&d=1284941009 http://www.warriortalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=11180&stc=1&d=1284941028

__________________
/QUOTE]

Wore one of these nearly fully loaded including during a run with weapon. I think is is a much different concept than a chest rig. Weight is on a wide (7-8"), well padded "belt" that goes around the midsection and canteens tend to balance out ammo weight on the front. Most of the weight rests on hip bones. Because the bottom is at the waist, run is not impeded by top of the thighs hitting bottom of mag pouches. For a heavy load, it seemed like the way to go.

For a lighter load for long distance, long duration missions where they intent was to break contact and E&E in the event of enemy contact rather than duke it out, I'd still favor the old school LBE.

emsmiller
09-19-2010, 11:57 PM
But I have carried gear while in the Boy Scouts and doing general SAR work. I found that the H-style LBE gear worked best with whatever pack I was using and it also worked pretty well in the SAR work ups I have done. I have had pouches for water, 1st aid, survival and etc. on the belts and the suspenders was only holding a compass and light. If you want you could add to the belt and so on. Diamondback Tactical makes a low profile LB suspenders set that could leave you with just wearing a belt with pouches and a pack. Never tried them but then again, the H rig I have works for me, so why change. I have to admit that the new Molle rigs with H style belt and straps look real nice but I would be tempted to add extra stuff that I really don't need. KISS works for me!

judomayhem
09-20-2010, 01:48 AM
I have gone back to using a rig almost identical to VLazlows, but with mods to make it work similar to the Israeli one posted above.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v174/vlazlow/DSC01725.jpg?t=1284772290
Using his pic above, I will describe how my rigs are slightly different and my reasoning behind this. I was issued this type of gear 15 years ago and my experiences then led me to what I do today.
1) I have a bandage on the left shoulder like he does, but it is wraped to the strap with electrical tape to eliminate movement. I don't trust a pouch in the upside down position as it may get caught low crawling and open against my wishes. You can also loop military style ear plugs there, or ranger beads.
2) On the right shoulder I have my K-bar mounted upside down using a Blackhawk sheath. I also have similar sheaths made by Mercworx on other LBE's that I will describe later. These are also secured with tape, in addition to the provided straps, usually. I can access this blade with either hand should one be injured or busy.
3) His belt looks a bit cramped from my experience, and probably will not allow him to lie prone without having his mags dig into his gut. This is because he has those two vintage pouches taking up real estate just to the inside of his mag holders. The ability to lie flat on my belly is important to me, but may not be to you. See Pilgrims initial pic below for an idea of how things should be layed out space-wise in front IMO
http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/4584/1005625a.jpg

4) The first thing on my left side of the belt is my GI compass (he has his further back on the right hand side). It is dummy chorded to the belt. If I can't afford to lose something, I make sure it is attached to me somehow. The Silva Ranger compass is better and lighter from what a USMC instructor told me at Nester's class, but if it ain't broke...
5)My mag pouches are in the same location as his (with the exception of the compass), but further back as stated above. I believe Eagle is the company that makes them for AK. Mine are the surplus ones, which means they have the grenade holders on either side. These can be cut off if you want, but I just smoosh 'em so that they are irrelevent. You can use the little snap tab on them to keep traditional leather work gloves handy. Or carabeaner (sp?) or whatever.
6)On the left of the pic, where he has the first vintage pouch, I have a Maxpedition Roly Poly dump pouch. This could serve other purposes as well, but I do not want to get in the habit of putting canteens or IPods or hamburgers where spent mags should go.
7) I have toyed with puting a knife next on my belt like many do. It works, if you want to go that route. It kinda bugged me when I would sit, so I opted out. I have also thought about carrying a larger bowie AIWB under my bdu top ala tradition using a Sastre style sheath with a frog/button thing. One could also carry at 4 or 8 o'clock. We will see. As for now a 6" hangs where previously noted.
8)Next we have the canteens. Here is another important thing. I cannot don a pack if I have canteens as far back as in the pic. IMO, they should be closer to 3 or 9. See Pilgrim's pic for guidence on this as well.
9A) I was not issued a buttpack back in the day, but now own and love this "Recon" one from Eagle:
http://www.badassknives.com/pd_eagle_industries_recon.cfm
http://www.badassknives.com/prod_images_large/RECON_PATROL_BUTT_PACK-Lg.jpg The model in the pic is either a small guy or (more likely) the superimposed pic is not perfectly to scale. I am 5'9" and the top of the pack is pretty much in the small of my back. It can hold either Nalgene or mags in the side pouches, and plenty of food bars in the main compartment. Extra socks and foot powder go in the back pouch. I could leave off my GI issued canteens, or just leave them empty if I decided to go the Nalgene route. Nester wraps his Nalgene's with duct tape so he always has some on hand. Clever. The bag also has reinforced loop thingies on the bottom so you can strap your poncho and/or liner down there like Lazlow.
They may have discontinued the "Recon" as I could not find it on Eagle's own site. Blackhawk makes one the same size, however. I have not tried running this with my framed ALICE pack, but it does not interfere with a "three day" pack I own that is similar to the Sneaky one being developed.
9B) If I needed a larger framed pack and the "recon" interferred I would either get the butt bag below
or just leave the back part of the belt empty like I used to. If you cannot lie on your back comfortably with your lbe, something is amiss.
http://www.badassknives.com/prod_images_large/BUTT_PACK_MILITARY_STYLE-Lg.jpg
Again, the model is wearing this WAY too high. It is called a butt pack for a reason. That canteen should be under his arm, too.
10) After the canteen on my right hand side 3-4 o'clockish is a standard drop leg holster. I want to get a flap one like this from OST but I am still putting together my 1st line gear so this bit of third line stuff will have to wait.
http://www.onesourcetactical.com/hawkepaktacticalthighholster.aspx
(SEE IMAGE IN NEXT POST)
Then the belt is finished at 2-3 oclock with my last mag pouch.
This can be used as a stand alone system, but I usually throw a hydration pack from Mercworx over it. The smaller pocket on the back of the hydration pouch will hold more medical stuff when I get it. If carrying water in the butt pack or wherever, the (empty) hydration pack can be used to carry a small bit of gear instead. It expands just big enough for a football sized object(s) to be carried. Perhaps thermal underwear, night cap, and warmer gloves.
(SEE IMAGE IN NEXT POST)
Not sure if pic will post, but here is a link:
http://www.mercworx.com/it/ReservoirCarrier.html

When worn over LBE, it gives much of the appearence and function of the Israeli rig shown, but with the added ability to lie prone comfortably.
Some additional comments on LBE-
A)Roll up, then wrap excess strap material with electrical tape. This will keep them from getting in the way.
B) Also use electrical tape on the hooks that attach suspenders to the belt. This will keep them from coming un-snapped.
C) If your daughter is goth, you can steal her black fingernail polish to subdue worn (ie bright) metal snaps. Otherwise buy it online or maybe some flat black model paint from a hobby shop.
D) With the exception of the aftermarket butt packs and drop leg holster, the lbe is CHEAP from surplus places on/off the web. Buy two or three extras, and rig them for subgun, shotgun, sniper use, etc. as they do make belt pouches for those systems.
E) After using it, inspect it to make sure everything is secure for the next outing.
Hope that helps.

judomayhem
09-20-2010, 01:53 AM
The gear I was talking about will not let me post pics, so here are the links:
Flap leg holster from OST:
http://www.warriortalk.com/ProductImages/LE49.JPG
http://www.onesourcetactical.com/hawkepaktacticalthighholster.aspx

The hydration pack form Mercworxs:
http://www.warriortalk.com/../Images/ProductImages/Gear/mwReservoirCarrier.jpg
http://www.mercworx.com/it/ReservoirCarrier.html

Gabe Suarez
09-20-2010, 06:55 AM
What I am looking for, and it is a project currently is this - A light LBE harness consistent with what an insurgent might carry. Not overburdened with mission gear, but light and fast to enable quick movements. Think Apache Warrior Band and not a Modern Armored Mechanized Battalion.

The LBE would have two magazines on the support side and one on the firing side...we are ambidextrous fighters.

It would have a pistol in a semi drop holster. There would be three extra magazines in place somewhere on that rig. That holster incidentally MUST have a flap as we are not looking at a CQB rig. In the HRO training, open top holsters are filled with mud in short order.

A knife and a medical kit would complete the stuff on the belt, and there would be some sort of suspender system in place to help carry the gear. Perhaps a hydration pouch on the back, or a nalgene pouch on the belt.

Other mission essentials and snivel gear would be carried in a ruck.

jcart
09-20-2010, 07:44 AM
Suggestion;
Belt, Flap holster and semi-drop for holster and pistol mag pouches from Bianchi. http://bianchi-intl.com/product/CatList.php?numSubCat=26

Maxpedition admin or medical pouch-depending on how is going into it.

Rifle mags???

Ma Deuce
09-20-2010, 08:03 AM
, but light and fast to enable quick movements.

That holster incidentally MUST have a flap as we are not looking at a CQB rig.

A knife and a medical kit would complete the stuff on the belt, and there would be some sort of suspender system in place to help carry the gear.

Other mission essentials and snivel gear would be carried in a ruck.

I think you are spot on with this.

Also, too much crap on the harness gets in the way of dynamic movement. Resist the urge to move gear up your torso.....keep the harness bare bones as possible.

Secondly, there is mission essential and then there is mission essential. You should be able to conduct business, albeit at reduced convenience and comfort, even if your ruck takes a total loss hit. If it truly is vital, it should be on your person. Some discussion is probably warranted as to what that really is.

P.D.
09-20-2010, 08:13 AM
What I am looking for, and it is a project cureently is this - A light LBE harness consistent with what an insurgent might carry. Not overburdened with mission gear, but light and fats to enable quick movements. Think Apache Warrior Band and not a Modern Armored Mechanized Battalion.

The LBE would have two magazines on the support side and one on the firing side...we are ambidextrous fighters.

It would have a pistol in a semi drop holster. There would be three extra magazines in place somewhere on that rig. That holster incidentally MUST have a flap as we are not looking at a CQB rig. In the HRO training, open top holsters are filled with mud in short order.

A knife and a medical kit would complete the stuff on the belt, and there would be some sort of suspender system in place to help carry the gear. Perhaps a hydration pouch on the back, or a nalgene pouch on the belt.

Other mission essentials and snivel gear would be carried in a ruck.

Do this:

Get an "H" harness. Sew a Camelbak hydration pouch to it. Add a belt, 2 or 3 mag pouches of your liking, a roll-up dump pouch, Eagle Industries (or similar) flap holster (I use a Brit. P58 in cross draw), and a knife. Move the mag pouches far enough to the side that you can go prone and still be able to reach them. Add your extra mag pouches at the 4:00 and 8:00 position, and the Med pouch at 6:00.

Test drive that and see how it works for you.

Invisible_Man
09-20-2010, 09:57 AM
What I am looking for, and it is a project currently is this - A light LBE harness consistent with what an insurgent might carry. Not overburdened with mission gear, but light and fast to enable quick movements. Think Apache Warrior Band and not a Modern Armored Mechanized Battalion.

The LBE would have two magazines on the support side and one on the firing side...we are ambidextrous fighters.

It would have a pistol in a semi drop holster. There would be three extra magazines in place somewhere on that rig. That holster incidentally MUST have a flap as we are not looking at a CQB rig. In the HRO training, open top holsters are filled with mud in short order.

A knife and a medical kit would complete the stuff on the belt, and there would be some sort of suspender system in place to help carry the gear. Perhaps a hydration pouch on the back, or a nalgene pouch on the belt.

Other mission essentials and snivel gear would be carried in a ruck.

Why not grab a Molle belt and add suspenders that way you can customize it to your liking?

YARP
09-20-2010, 10:25 AM
This is a great opportunity. Why not do just what Gabe is talking about? Grab a rifle and your gear and take it on a ten mile hike. We could all probably learn something important.

Why not plan it somewhere in your area, somewhere you actually could envision going?


My POV is that of what might be termed, back woods, long range, partisan ops. In other wortds, on foot, fast and light. I will grab a rifle and my gear and go off for a ten mile stretch. Unless I am carrying a very heavy ruck, a chest rig leaves me smoked at the end of the day.

I have talked to some LRS guys that know more than I about LBEs and they tell me that you want the weight as low around your waist and hips as possible. The higher the weight, the more fatiguing it is.

Chest rigs seem to be intended more for vehicle borne ops than for ground pounding. Not to say chest rigs are bad, but I am looking for something better for me...and maybe even to suggest in the HRO family of classes. I want to reiterate that this is NOT for urban ops or covert ops. This is for crawling in the weeds.

Maybe some of the LRS guys can comment.

Gabe, for my runs through the woods I've been using a Jax Pax "bug out belt" as of late. It's not something that you want to do high leg sprinting in but when doing the LRS shuffle it's wonderful. The design is based on supporting all the weight through your belt (thus keeping any and all weight off your shoulders and back.) which is pretty well done, the thigh rigs have a strap that goes around your legs. I'm actually surprised how much weight you can load up with in this system, although the butt-pack should be kept as light as possible the thigh rigs can carry a good deal of weight. I have a pistol and mags in the right thigh rig and support equipment/ammo for my Savage in the left, I try to get the weight as even as possible. The butt-pack has some med stuff and your basic necessity's for survival as well as some food, again I keep this part pretty light.
This design could use some improvements and add ons and I've been tinkering with a little bit of a different design that would include a camel back as well as some other extras. When I complete it, I'll do a show and tell.

Doug in CO
09-20-2010, 10:26 AM
One of these:
http://www.blackhawk.com/product/Patrol-BeltPad,93,1384.htm
Two of these:
http://www.blackhawk.com/product/STRIKE-AKM4-Single-Mag-Holds-2,1320,1391.htm
Two of these (the second for the first aid kit)
http://www.blackhawk.com/product/STRIKE-1-Qt-Canteen-Pouch,1280,55.htm
One of these
http://www.blackhawk.com/product/Special-Operations-Holster,792,34.htm

You might find that you don't even need suspenders

Anthony
09-20-2010, 11:40 AM
You might find that you don't even need suspendersI have worked without a harness/suspenders.

Basically it was for street patrolling in Crossmaglen, with the patrol lasting just a few hours before being relieved, then back out again several hours for a few more hours etc, during a 48 hour period before going on to 48 hours of rural patrolling etc.
1980, my first 'tour'.

I carried four spare FAL magazines on my belt, in individual magazine carriers, two on my left side, one on my right and one at the back together with a water bottle and pouch full of first field dressings.

This is about the maximum that I would suggest without a harness/suspenders.

Regards,
Anthony.

Bonnot
09-20-2010, 12:27 PM
Have any of you checked out the apollo from Red Tac?
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/Outside_A_U_L_.jpg
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/Inside_A_U_L_.jpg
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/My_Apollo_1_WM.jpg
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/IMG_1387_WM.jpg

BigEd63
09-20-2010, 01:42 PM
Why not grab a Molle belt and add suspenders that way you can customize it to your liking?


Have any of you checked out the apollo from Red Tac?
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/Outside_A_U_L_.jpg
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/Inside_A_U_L_.jpg
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/My_Apollo_1_WM.jpg
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/IMG_1387_WM.jpg

That's one of type of the rigs I had in mind.

Doug in CO
09-20-2010, 02:54 PM
Another option, since we're talking minimalist mode here, is to have a bag (Sneaky?) with 2-4 mags in single mag pouches with belt loops (something similar to the old M-14 single pouches), a canteen in a holder with a belt loop, and a simple utility pouch with a belt loop as first aid kit. It would take about one minute to unthread your heavyish belt (like a rescue belt, etc.), slide on as few or many of those components as you want, and then head out. A rescue belt with a simple first aid kit, canteen, and two single mag pouches would be very low profile, pretty light, and give you a decent punch.


Or, you could just use a "lumbar pack" with two single mag pouches threaded on to each side.

http://www.gandermountain.com/modperl/product/details.cgi?i=414418&pdesc=High_Sierra_Express_Lumbar_Pack&str=lumbar+pack&merchID=4005

Maddog6
09-20-2010, 03:27 PM
Red Tac is quality gear. The owner (who also does the sewing) is great to work with also. Check out the site. He is open to making custom gear as he did for me about a year ago.

Maddog6 :cool:ut!

cco45acp
09-20-2010, 07:02 PM
Long distance and long duration missions I would suggest a layer approach.

On pants belt:

Empty leather IWB holster
Horizontal flap pistol mag pouch w/mag
Cloth single rifle mag pouch with rifle mag

In pockets tied with dummy cords:

Multitool
Flashlight
Compass
GPS
Map
Survival tin
Pouch with Israeli bandage and quick clot.
Foil survival blanket
Spoon

H harness LBE with buttpack:

6 rifle mags in pouches
First aid packet
Poncho
Poncho liner
Knit watch cap
Cleaning Kit
2 one quart canteens w/ one canteen cup and stove/water purification tablets
1 MRE
15 meters of climbing rope
Carabiner
Leather gloves
Kydex or Flap holster
Pistol mag in cloth pouch

Optional: Fixed blade knife.

This is what I propose: LBE plus on-body gear should keep you functional, if hungry, for 48 hrs. Additional gear can go in ruck. It you really have to haul freight or make it fast across water, you can dump the LBE, remove the pistol from your LBE, put it in the IWB, grab your rifle and beat feet. You still have 60 rounds of rifle ammo, 30 rounds of pistol ammo and essential, if minimal, nav and survival kit.

Can't really think of a situation in the U.S. where this would be necessary, but if I had the option of "kitting" for a bad area overseas, this would be the way I would go.

Gabe- re flap holters: was the mud bad enough to make it hard to get a good grip on slime covered Glock or cause malfunctions?

Averageman
09-23-2010, 06:09 PM
The best thing about the old H type harness was it's ability to adapt and move gear around the harness and belt and to keep the weight on your hips and off your chest. I don't see that with gear being mounted higher on the chest and yes it does get hotter to wear the higher it is.
Look at your chest and lungs as the engine of your body, you dont want to overheat it. The higher your gear the higher your core temp will rise.
Yes I remember the keepers being stowed and everything being tied with 550 cord and getting an older web belt that was softer and making a 550 keeper buckle.
An added advantage to the old gear was as you hit the prone your ribs didnt get slammed by six mags. You could move them further back on your hips and to your sides.
The chest rigs seem to scream broken rib to me. Having said that, I have a chest rig, I have just moved everything as far to my left side as possible.
As I approach the half century mark I can assure you this stuff just keeps getting heavier. My old back injuries just ache more and after a full day I question the added weight of body armor.
I will continue to experiment with this stuff and perfect a rig that works for me, my body type, my terrain and weapons system.
The only right answer seems to me to be the one that works for you now and that can adapt to what you will need later.

DiamondD
09-23-2010, 06:22 PM
One of these:
http://www.blackhawk.com/product/Patrol-BeltPad,93,1384.htm
Two of these:
http://www.blackhawk.com/product/STRIKE-AKM4-Single-Mag-Holds-2,1320,1391.htm
Two of these (the second for the first aid kit)
http://www.blackhawk.com/product/STRIKE-1-Qt-Canteen-Pouch,1280,55.htm
One of these
http://www.blackhawk.com/product/Special-Operations-Holster,792,34.htm


You might find that you don't even need suspenders

That all looks like good kit to me. Thanks for posting those.

I would definatly want suspenders though. I always found that the lore and looser I wore my belt, the better off I was. Mind you, this was with the old 782 gear.

GHERKIN05
09-23-2010, 08:00 PM
The Red Tac Gear looks ligit. I looked at their web page and didn't see any prices. What does the harnes cost before bags?

I have been looking at Mayflower's sniper/observer kit. Looks nice, but very spendy$$$. Anyone know this gear?

mde762
09-24-2010, 08:10 AM
My POV is that of what might be termed, back woods, long range, partisan ops. In other wortds, on foot, fast and light. I will grab a rifle and my gear and go off for a ten mile stretch. Unless I am carrying a very heavy ruck, a chest rig leaves me smoked at the end of the day.

I have talked to some LRS guys that know more than I about LBEs and they tell me that you want the weight as low around your waist and hips as possible. The higher the weight, the more fatiguing it is.

Chest rigs seem to be intended more for vehicle borne ops than for ground pounding. Not to say chest rigs are bad, but I am looking for something better for me...and maybe even to suggest in the HRO family of classes. I want to reiterate that this is NOT for urban ops or covert ops. This is for crawling in the weeds.

Maybe some of the LRS guys can comment.Im a LRS guy at Bragg.( that's why I dont post much.) We wear plate carriers in the field. What you have is largely up to the operator, while the unit issues the LBT version of the CIRAS. I wear a Weesatch. Keep in mind this is for our current COE. A lot of the guys like me still run the old LCE in a wooded environment, keeping two or three mag pouches on the left and two on the right(to balance the load) two canteens and a buttpack. Instead of ALICE clips use zipties. Where the metal hooks are on the suspenders replace with 550 cord, and attach it directly to the pouches in the front and the buttpack in the back. This balances the load, and keeps the front relatively open to make lowcrawling easy. AK alice pouches can be found cheap, as can any ALICE gear. That being said, another consideration is weight. Since LRS ops are about as high risk as it gets, Carrying a sufficient load of ammo to break contact with is essential.(with well trained and seasoned troops that should be 3-4 mags) I like to carry 6-8, but that comes from first hand bad situations during deployments with the 25th. This keeps the load relatively light. But you should have access to at least 12 more mags in your ruck, preferably in ammo pouches attached to the outside for quick access if you need to blow rucks(cache a ruck during evasion) and need to resupply on the fly. Now for me, in my experiments on the weekends running AKs, the old chinese chest rig(moded by willie @ general jacksons, any operator stationed at Bragg knows this dude) to add a clip in the back and snaps on the pockets makes for a better rig. 3 mags, plus pockets for a compass and a couple of diversionary devices(use your imagination) makes for a light and tight rig. Couple that with a camelback for a water source( you can stash it in the top claymore pocket of a LRS modded ruck) and put it on if you need to blow rucks. The 3 AK mags are not so heavy that you should get gassed from running with it on, and it stays close to the body to prevent snagging in the bush. Also on an interesting historical note, in Vietnam the NVA used this similar rig as a sort of rudimentary body armor, with the three mags in front protecting their torso. This was also chronicled in John Plaster's book SOG(which anyone interested in this topic must read. Go get it right now, Im serious) when one of the operators was shot while wearing one and his AK magazine stopped the round. Things to consider when selecting gear for an op.

Just one man's opinion.:D

Lew Wetzel
09-25-2010, 05:26 AM
Im a LRS guy at Bragg.( that's why I dont post much.) We wear plate carriers in the field. What you have is largely up to the operator, while the unit issues the LBT version of the CIRAS. I wear a Weesatch. Keep in mind this is for our current COE. A lot of the guys like me still run the old LCE in a wooded environment, keeping two or three mag pouches on the left and two on the right(to balance the load) two canteens and a buttpack. Instead of ALICE clips use zipties. Where the metal hooks are on the suspenders replace with 550 cord, and attach it directly to the pouches in the front and the buttpack in the back. This balances the load, and keeps the front relatively open to make lowcrawling easy. AK alice pouches can be found cheap, as can any ALICE gear. That being said, another consideration is weight. Since LRS ops are about as high risk as it gets, Carrying a sufficient load of ammo to break contact with is essential.(with well trained and seasoned troops that should be 3-4 mags) I like to carry 6-8, but that comes from first hand bad situations during deployments with the 25th. This keeps the load relatively light. But you should have access to at least 12 more mags in your ruck, preferably in ammo pouches attached to the outside for quick access if you need to blow rucks(cache a ruck during evasion) and need to resupply on the fly. Now for me, in my experiments on the weekends running AKs, the old chinese chest rig(moded by willie @ general jacksons, any operator stationed at Bragg knows this dude) to add a clip in the back and snaps on the pockets makes for a better rig. 3 mags, plus pockets for a compass and a couple of diversionary devices(use your imagination) makes for a light and tight rig. Couple that with a camelback for a water source( you can stash it in the top claymore pocket of a LRS modded ruck) and put it on if you need to blow rucks. The 3 AK mags are not so heavy that you should get gassed from running with it on, and it stays close to the body to prevent snagging in the bush. Also on an interesting historical note, in Vietnam the NVA used this similar rig as a sort of rudimentary body armor, with the three mags in front protecting their torso. This was also chronicled in John Plaster's book SOG(which anyone interested in this topic must read. Go get it right now, Im serious) when one of the operators was shot while wearing one and his AK magazine stopped the round. Things to consider when selecting gear for an op.

Just one man's opinion.:D

Very good info. Thanks. I'm not military but I have been training for over 15 years and though I've tried other systems I always go back to ALICE gear. And ditto on Plaster's book SOG. The great thing about it is how it shows how those guys did things before the advent of all the new technology that our SF guys have today--stuff that is not available to us mere mortals. The chapter that deals with IA drills, etc is invaluable.
Thanks again and God bless you and your unit.

one_man_force
09-25-2010, 03:55 PM
Diamondback makes a nice H-Harness
http://www.diamondbacktactical.com/product/Diamondback-Tacticalreg-Load-Baring-H-Harness,221,64.htm

mde762
09-25-2010, 05:10 PM
Very good info. Thanks. I'm not military but I have been training for over 15 years and though I've tried other systems I always go back to ALICE gear. And ditto on Plaster's book SOG. The great thing about it is how it shows how those guys did things before the advent of all the new technology that our SF guys have today--stuff that is not available to us mere mortals. The chapter that deals with IA drills, etc is invaluable.
Thanks again and God bless you and your unit.Tango Mike. The chapter that deals with that is Run Through the Jungle. It stands as a treatise on small unit tactics for a team not supported by any battalion or larger force on call( as with any BN level scout platoon....but that's personal between me and them in 2-35 back in Hawaii....long feuds and war stories.) And the stuff they have and I have privilege to use is available to anyone, just VERY expensive. Watch a few episodes of burn notice and you might get some ideas....again use your imagination.:D Just hope some of the info helps some guys and saves some money at the same time.

Neez
09-25-2010, 07:58 PM
I have a 7 day tactical tracking class coming up. I have pulled out of storage four rigs that i intend on trying out. In 05' I was on a dismounted platoon and did prolly 500 miles of patrolling on foot, in our AO. I wore a blackhawk chest rig, started with 9 mags and before long was down to six. The wieght of that on my chest caused my to lean forward and like what has been said, left me sucking.

Prior to that deployment I used an H-harness (m-1967) then a wide set made by eagle.

I had the Recon pack also by eagle. I had the two one quart swimmer canteen pouches and 4 issue mag pouches (I removed the grenade hangers). The top of the recon butt pack has a pouch which I used as a IFAK)
The center pouch carried a poncho and 4 bunji cords cleaning kit in the other and sock and G-tex parka in the main.

I'll try and post pics of the gear tomorow as I not home at the moment.

civilgORe
09-26-2010, 10:37 AM
I have a 7 day tactical tracking class coming up. I have pulled out of storage four rigs that i intend on trying out. In 05' I was on a dismounted platoon and did prolly 500 miles of patrolling on foot, in our AO. I wore a blackhawk chest rig, started with 9 mags and before long was down to six. The wieght of that on my chest caused my to lean forward and like what has been said, left me sucking.

Prior to that deployment I used an H-harness (m-1967) then a wide set made by eagle.

I had the Recon pack also by eagle. I had the two one quart swimmer canteen pouches and 4 issue mag pouches (I removed the grenade hangers). The top of the recon butt pack has a pouch which I used as a IFAK)
The center pouch carried a poncho and 4 bunji cords cleaning kit in the other and sock and G-tex parka in the main.

I'll try and post pics of the gear tomorrow as I not home at the moment.

I have the recon butt pack as well. It's a very good piece of gear IMO and pictures on how you set yours up would be greatly appreciated. I have my fire kit in the left outter pocket, a poncho in the middle, and loose ammo in the right. In the main I have food and a survival kit I have thrown together. In the top pouch is my head lamp and some binoculars. In the inner flap is some batteries and para-cord. Bassicaly it is set up for when my ruck is ditched and can support basic life needs.. Water, fire, shelter... and extra rounds!:D

Four ak mags, two pistol mags, an Al Mar knife, handgun, medkit and canteen w/ cup is on my belt as well.

Mountain Man
09-26-2010, 01:07 PM
I've done law enforement searches in the mountains in body armor and duty gear, it's heavy and hot.
In MT Rescue I had to have all my gear ready in a rapid response pack about (70 Lbs) and be on the chopper in a hour and be able to survive at high altitued on glaciers in winter conditions for several days.
I applied this knowledge to my LBE, which I use for hunting in the Cascade Mountains.
Depending on the hunt, a Large Alice Rucksack with shelf, extra water and food as well as a sleeping bag, pad, tent or bivi bag, If I plan on spending the night out. If I'm going lighter or hunting from the car, I've used Y and H harness, canteens and pouches attached with para cord instead of alice clips, two metal canteens water can be heated in these, one has the nesting canteen cup, small flashlight Esbit stove and fuel tabs, Iodine tablets for water purification or iodine crystals in a bottle. Buttpack contains, food, 1 MRE's or Jerky apple or dried fruit or gorp, tape and para cord, fire steel titanium bar, first aid and survival gear, fixed blade knife (K-Bar or Old Timer, full tang) on belt or in butt pack, Hatchet, multi tool, with a small sharpening file, this can also be used with a flint to start a fire, small zip lock bag with cotton balls(first aid or tinder) . I may carry the poncho in the pack or on the butt pack. A box of cartridges. When climbing I carry a Silva Ranger compass on a cord around my neck the compass could be put into a chest pocket in your shirt or jacket or a pouch on the harness map goes in butt pack or jacket pocket. Trama dressing on the shouder harness. Much more comfortable that a interceptor vest.

sirjohnathon
09-27-2010, 02:18 PM
Here is a nice speed rig. I am not where this is currently located so I had to use stock pics off the web:

The SOE Contoured War Belt is the base. Then use a padded X harness with open end tape that you can put speed hooks on to hold up the belt. both of these are available from Original SOE. The Joey Hydration pouch is small and can be mounted just below the drag handle on the X harness. You can put additional canteens on the belt, but to save weight it is easier to have a filter in a butt pack and just refill on the go.

The belt can be outfitted with pouches for gear as needed. Mag pouches on weak side (10-11:30 positions on right handers), and a drop leg holster on strong side (the belt has cutouts for thigh rigs). That leaves your 1-2:00 section for pistol mags, small utility pouch, flashlight, knife, etc. You can put your compass on the front of the X-harness a little lower than where you shoulder your rifle. The other side can hold a multi-tool or a larger survival knife. In the back is a small butt-pack at 6:00.

I will try and post pics when I can, but this should give you a basic idea. It is light, fast, and holds all the gear at basically your waistline.

JVSIII
09-27-2010, 03:08 PM
Has anyone here tried HSGI (High Speed Gear inc.) I have used some of thier stuff and it's as high in quality as anything I have seen. I hear he will do one off if you want, and the prices aren't too bad. Most of the pouches close with plactic buckles or bungees instead of velcro, which I like.

Maybe worth a gander.

remington79
09-27-2010, 06:03 PM
I've been looking at the HSGI universal mag pouches. I like how the elastic will keep a single mag in place from rattling around. I like the buckles and the flaps that cover the mags too. They also close with velcro but they come with a backer to put over the velcro so it will silence it. Personally I don't care for velcro. I don't have faith in it to keep closed. Especially with dirt, mud or snow. I also don't like the noise it makes. I wish gear makers would get over their fetish for velcro.

Gabe Suarez
09-28-2010, 09:20 AM
OK...been playing with some stuff.

Main problem with belt is real estate. At 175 pounds, I have a 32 inch waist (yup...I know...I need to eat more cheeseburgers - NOT). problem is not alot of room on the belt, and I either do without some importnat stuff, or find another place to put it.

I am leaning toward the following concept. One of layers where one layer is added on top of another as needed:

First Layer - Personal survival. Pants pockets hold compass & map, one trauma kit, small knife, fire making kit, signalling material, etc. You don't leave the house without this and most is already with you anyway as part of your pocket contents.

Second Layer - Basic Combat Gear. This includes a belt LBE, that carries a couple of rifle magazines, a couple of pistol magazines, the pistol in some sort of rural-focused holster, a big knife, and additional survival gear. This is held up by a set of non-padded suspenders. As a fast and dirty rig it works well in concept. As a long term (days) field rig, it is not enough.

Third layer - For more sustained field use. This is not a couiple of hours in the weeds, or class...it is a couple of days. A lightly kitted chest rig/vest load carrying rig that carries the main contingent of magazines, trauma kit, admin kit, hydration kit, etc. I have a Blackhawk Strike Rig from the old days that I am digging out of mothballs to take a look at.

Fourth Layer includes a Ruck...probably the one Dan-O is working on. This would carry any non-essential stuff that relates more to environmental issues such as weather, camp, etc.

Thoughts?

Ryan Acuff
09-28-2010, 10:22 AM
I've been playing with the same set-up for rural ops (my particular AO) and have found that the good ole mil-spec green flap holster still works for this and I've just threaded the belt hanger through PALS webbing on my padded MOLLE belt.

I started out with the Blackhawk vest for carying longer term sustainment gear and rifle mags, but it's pretty uncomfortable when wearing with a ruck too. I find the chest rig works better for this for me. Particularly the Insurgent.

I'm seriously considering switching from the flap holster to Dale's Eleazar on the MOLLE belt. No flap, but would otherwise look like it would protect the pistol better than the duty type holster I had on the belt.

sirjohnathon
09-28-2010, 10:28 AM
Gabe,

I think that is the best approach, but it all comes down to "strap management". If you want suspenders for the belt, you will have to decide if you are going to run it under the vest or over the vest. Under typically means no padding, which can dig into your shoulders over time. Over means it isn't quick to dump the vest, and you will need a plain molle vest so you can adjust the pouches around the suspenders. Finally, if you add a ruck you will probably want a design with quick attach to the vest, or you are going to have a third set of straps. You can get a vest that has belt keepers on the bottom, but that really slows down dumping of the vest, and leaves you without suspenders unless you carry a set in the ruck.

Just my thoughts for what they are worth.

John

P.D.
09-28-2010, 10:34 AM
OK...been playing with some stuff.

...
I am leaning toward the following concept. One of layers where one layer is added on top of another as needed:

First Layer - Personal survival. Pants pockets hold compass & map, one trauma kit, small knife, fire making kit, signalling material, etc. You don't leave the house without this and most is already with you anyway as part of your pocket contents.

Second Layer - Basic Combat Gear. This includes a belt LBE, that carries a couple of rifle magazines, a couple of pistol magazines, the pistol in some sort of rural-focused holster, a big knife, and additional survival gear. This is held up by a set of non-padded suspenders. As a fast and dirty rig it works well in concept. As a long term (days) field rig, it is not enough.

Third layer - For more sustained field use. This is not a couiple of hours in the weeds, or class...it is a couple of days. A lightly kitted chest rig/vest load carrying rig that carries the main contingent of magazines, trauma kit, admin kit, hydration kit, etc. I have a Blackhawk Strike Rig from the old days that I am digging out of mothballs to take a look at.

Fourth Layer includes a Ruck...probably the one Dan-O is working on. This would carry any non-essential stuff that relates more to environmental issues such as weather, camp, etc.

Thoughts?

That is exactly it. This is what we did back in the day. The stuff you need to always have with you never leaves your body. Pockets. The stuff you need to fight and survive - ammo, water, weapons - goes on top of that. Think LBE there. Everything else can be improvised, replicated or replaced and goes on/in the Ruck.

rottonman
09-28-2010, 10:40 AM
i have been working with this layered approach for many years now.

my first layer-same as gabe's

second layer-old rhodesian ammo chest rig with unpadded straps. holds four mags and one pistol.

third layer for me-a fairly large capacity internal frame backpack. if i encounter a situation that requires speed of movement and fighting, i dump the pack and fight. if i survive, i come back for the pack. if not, then i no longer need it. the pack does go over the rho chest rig with comfort. the pack tends to balance out the chest rig.

i am looking for a better chest rig with a detachable camel back system.
i want water with me always. it also has the added benefit of balancing out the chest rig's weight. then in my ao i could just operate without the backpack and have all i need for the day or maybe longer. with the added pack i could be out about ten days or so.

i am also looking at leg holsters but so far have not been thrilled by them. what are others thoughts on the thigh rigs??

rottonman
09-28-2010, 10:46 AM
i have been walking with the whole setup (no rifle) loaded with fifty pounds. i am almost up to four miles and hour with it. i am at 3200 ft and my road is gravel, windy and hilly. good workout for my legs and heart.
i am now comfortable with the weight. i should add some more weight now. then in a real situation if i carry less it will feel very light and fast.
do it now and get used to the weight before you need to do it for keeps.
do not let age keep you from doing it. i am almost 60 but i refuse to feel old. age is more mental then physical. (i keep telling myself this) get mentally tougher now, tomorrow may be too late.

Sam Spade
09-28-2010, 11:00 AM
Thoughts:

I think you've got one too many layers there. Putting a vest over suspenders is not generally conducive to a week in the weeds.

Back in the old days, there was a 3-line approach. First line gear was survival equipment, much as you've laid out. It went into the pockets or attached directly to the body. Second-line gear was the fighting load. Third-line gear was a sustainment load, again much as you've laid out centered on the ruck.

In those days, (long ago in a galaxy far away) I had a 36" waist. It grew a bit when I put on field clothing, but not by that much. That still gave enough room for 4 magazine pouches, 2 canteens, a butt-pack and a sheath knife. All that stuff rode low, right at the hips. The pistol went into a WWII design "tanker" chest holster. That way, if you had to dump everything and run, or if you had to chuck the LBE because you were drowning in a water crossing, you still had a weapon attached to your body. You've mentioned mud and debris working it's way into the holster: that happens less when it's up on you pectoral, and in foul weather the pistol ended up under the heavy clothing. (The LBE stayed on the outside. Already attached 550 cord provided the quick re-sizing of the belt.)

You can still run a similar rig, replacing the two canteens with a CamelBak that attaches directly to the H-suspenders.

I do think that you should re-think the importance of pistol magazines. What type of fight is envisioned where a rapid pistol reload is essential? In your rural scheme with the rifle as your primary arm, do those spare pistol magazines really need to be taking up real estate on your fighting load? Maybe they belong in the butt pack.

Ryan Acuff
09-28-2010, 12:15 PM
Gabe,

What kind of belt are you using?

austin
09-28-2010, 12:39 PM
An LBE setup is the way to go. We had 4 mags in pouches and one on the weapon. Two canteens plus a poncho. Smoke grenades were carried in another bag on the LBE.

Two MREs were dissassembled prior to leaving on patrol and put in pants pockets. In training we did water resupply from "heli-dropped" caches, but today you could use a water filter. I also carried a few candy bars.

Once we were loaded up, we jumped up and down and low crawled to make sure we were tight, quiet, and functional. You could do burpees to make sure of the same.

One squad would have two packs, one for M16 ammo in magazines with a haul rope and another pack with M60 ammo. Both bags carried extra first aid stuff. We rotated the packs. If we had a big assault, the ammo would get distributed out of the packs and put into cargo pockets.

I carried an extra set of socks in a baggie in another cargo pocket.

With this setup I did 15-30 miles a day 6 days a week for a whole summer with firefights every hour or so.

Unless you need extra ammo or other war fighting gear, I do not see the need for a pack.

Unless it is going to be really, really cold with a lot of wind, you do not need tents, sleeping bags, etc, etc. A light day pack for extra clothes will get you by.

Whatever setup you use, you want it to be adjustable so you can wear summer wear or heavy winter wear with it. A lot of the gear I see is not adjustable.

When I did a lot of mountain climbing, we would go constantly until we were done. This meant leaving the car at midnight and getting back 24-36 hours later. I used a large fanny pack and shared one daypack for clothes with the rope and gear on us. We used water filters and carried candy bars. If things went wrong, we retreated, rather than grunt it out. The very light weight of what we carried made the hard hours of 10pm to 4am easy to bear. If we had to spend a night out, we sat back to back on the ropes and pack and shivered until dawn.

ArticPara
09-28-2010, 01:28 PM
If we had to spend a night out, we sat back to back on the ropes and pack and shivered until dawn.

reminds me of the old saying: "travel light, freeze at night"

judomayhem
09-28-2010, 02:12 PM
I don't put much in BDU pockets as lying on them (or diving on them, as the case may be) is painful and distracting. I kept a small notebook and pen in an upper bdu pocket, and maybe had a lighter, facepaint, and some tissues in other ones. I presume a quality compass could go into a bdu blouse lower pocket, although I would dummy chord it through a button loop. A map can go in the same or opposite pocket. A multitool and a folder would go on my PANTS belt in sheaths and were flat enough to be unnoticable at 9 oclock, even if lying on my side.
The only thing I remember keeping in cargo pockets on bdu pants were mre contents. And even that kinda bugs.
A buttpack is your friend. As shown in an earlier post, Eagle makes two good ones. Resist the temptation to use them more than your need to.

Gabe Suarez
09-28-2010, 02:22 PM
Thoughts:

I think you've got one too many layers there. Putting a vest over suspenders is not generally conducive to a week in the weeds.

Problem is I am a skinny bastard now and there is just not enough room on a belt to put everything in. I do think a pistol is necessary, on a drop leg rig it doesn't take up much space. As well a couple of magazines for it. Rifle mags also.

But then, canteens? No room.
Dump pouch? Gotta squeeze it in.
And then some of you are running butt packs as well? Wow. I ran out of room already.

Gabe Suarez
09-28-2010, 02:22 PM
Gabe,

What kind of belt are you using?


I got a padded deal from High Speed gear.

judomayhem
09-28-2010, 02:33 PM
Problem is I am a skinny bastard now and there is just not enough room on a belt to put everything in.
And then some of you are running butt packs as well? Wow. I ran out of room already.

Well...(ahem) what is taking up the real estate back there? Some are smaller than others, being just one pouch.

cco45acp
09-28-2010, 02:40 PM
Originally posted by Gabe Suarez
OK...been playing with some stuff.

Main problem with belt is real estate. At 175 pounds, I have a 32 inch waist (yup...I know...I need to eat more cheeseburgers - NOT). problem is not alot of room on the belt, and I either do without some importnat stuff, or find another place to put it.

I am leaning toward the following concept. One of layers where one layer is added on top of another as needed:

First Layer - Personal survival. Pants pockets hold compass & map, one trauma kit, small knife, fire making kit, signalling material, etc. You don't leave the house without this and most is already with you anyway as part of your pocket contents.

Second Layer - Basic Combat Gear. This includes a belt LBE, that carries a couple of rifle magazines, a couple of pistol magazines, the pistol in some sort of rural-focused holster, a big knife, and additional survival gear. This is held up by a set of non-padded suspenders. As a fast and dirty rig it works well in concept. As a long term (days) field rig, it is not enough.

Third layer - For more sustained field use. This is not a couiple of hours in the weeds, or class...it is a couple of days. A lightly kitted chest rig/vest load carrying rig that carries the main contingent of magazines, trauma kit, admin kit, hydration kit, etc. I have a Blackhawk Strike Rig from the old days that I am digging out of mothballs to take a look at.

Fourth Layer includes a Ruck...probably the one Dan-O is working on. This would carry any non-essential stuff that relates more to environmental issues such as weather, camp, etc.

Thoughts?


Gabe, I generally agree/prefer this load out though with the following mods:

Addition of some sort of semi collapsible, but secure pistol holster on pants belt, probably something along the line of a Mil Sparks Summer Special to put the pistol in if I ditch my LBE and ruck to run, swim, climb in an E&E situation or just to have in camp if I don't want to wear the LBE.

Also on my pants belt is one pistol mag in a cloth pouch and one AR mag in a cloth pouch (haven't tried this with an AK mag - it may be just enough heavier and longer to make it uncomfortable) and a Leatherman Wave. I have a 33-34" (depending on how many times I ran that week) waist and after you get used to the load it isn't uncomfortable if you adjust the LBE so it rides below your pants belt.

No experience with the chest rig. Everything I needed to operate was on the LBE but if I had to overnight without the ruck, it would be at least a hungry and maybe cold and wet evening. Have since added a buttpack for a poncho, poncho liner, and MRE but have not done any long walks with it. I know it is about impossible to ride in a vehicle while wearing LBE with a buttpack. Without a buttpack, my experience is it's not bad if you wear your canteens more on the side than in back.


I've found this thread both interesting and useful. Thanks.

cco45acp
09-28-2010, 02:47 PM
Don't like leg drop holsters. Seem to interfere with running. Also tried wearing one on my pants belt while wearing body armor. Pulled my pants down, not very tacticool. Ended up wearing a separate Riggers style belt just for the leg drop holster. Now pistol would either go on LBE or in the IWB holster on my pants belt.

judomayhem
09-28-2010, 02:47 PM
http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/4584/1005625a.jpg
Going back to Pilgrims basic set up, you could ditch the canteens if throwing a hydration system over the whole thing. That would give you room for a holster like this one from blackhawk on your strong side (ammo included) and a dump pouch on the off side.
http://www.blackhawk.com:80//CatalogImages/18-792-IMG3.jpeg

MikeNV
09-28-2010, 03:45 PM
Anyone try the Russian SMERSH gear ??

Much like our 782 gear/ (for the Marines here) suspender system, only built for AKs. While we probably don't need the GP30 grenade pouches, we could probably use this space for canteen/hydration system.

Recently worked with an retired navy spec-ops gent who showed me that he used military sleeping pad sections that he cut to size/fit and duct taped to his web belt/suspender gear to : A: extra pad the load, to eliminate hot spots during long treks and B: make his gear more buoyant while operating in water.


http://www.popularairsoft.com/files/images/soviet_smersh_kit.jpg
http://i.ebayimg.com/22/!B1U)3Dg!mk~$(KGrHqQOKnUEw88-54pjBMeB)Chetg~~_3.JPG

judomayhem
09-28-2010, 07:23 PM
Recently worked with an retired navy spec-ops gent who showed me that he used military sleeping pad sections that he cut to size/fit and duct taped to his web belt/suspender gear to : A: extra pad the load, to eliminate hot spots during long treks and B: make his gear more buoyant while operating in water.

That is interesting, but I think the goal is to make things light enough that padding is a minor issue to begin with.

Anthony
09-28-2010, 08:30 PM
Problem is I am a skinny bastard now and there is just not enough room on a belt to put everything in. I do think a pistol is necessary, on a drop leg rig it doesn't take up much space. As well a couple of magazines for it. Rifle mags also.

But then, canteens? No room.
Dump pouch? Gotta squeeze it in.
And then some of you are running butt packs as well? Wow. I ran out of room already.You should have seen us with 28 inch waists, and 32 inch chests and weighing 'whatever'!?

I am so embarressed! :o

Yes.
That was me in 1978! :o

Not much has improved since then! :eek:

But I still have the 'mind set'! ;)

Regards,
Anthony.

emsmiller
09-29-2010, 12:33 AM
To a family friend who served in Vietnam and also did some Govt. work afterwards. His comments about the LBE was that it worked but you need to modify it to your needs. Don't be afraid to rip, sew, paint, change as needed. He commented that for 1 full set of HS/LD gear that you see in catalogs, you can get a quite a few sets of regular ALICE gear or etc and mod the hell out of it and have it fit your needs. An excellent example is the LVB with the mag pouches at an angle. It takes a belt so why not get the vest section, make pouches that will fit an AK mag and then fit the gear as you need?

While talking about that stuff, I remember seeing a Russian pilot survival vest that had pouches for AK mags as well as other gear. Iirc, it was for Afghanistan deployment. The mags were held in pouches horizontally on the right side of the vest, the other stuff on the left side of the vest and so on. Why not get one of those? Just some thoughts.

mde762
09-29-2010, 06:45 AM
I don't put much in BDU pockets as lying on them (or diving on them, as the case may be) is painful and distracting. I kept a small notebook and pen in an upper bdu pocket, and maybe had a lighter, facepaint, and some tissues in other ones. I presume a quality compass could go into a bdu blouse lower pocket, although I would dummy chord it through a button loop. A map can go in the same or opposite pocket. A multitool and a folder would go on my PANTS belt in sheaths and were flat enough to be unnoticable at 9 oclock, even if lying on my side.
The only thing I remember keeping in cargo pockets on bdu pants were mre contents. And even that kinda bugs.
A buttpack is your friend. As shown in an earlier post, Eagle makes two good ones. Resist the temptation to use them more than your need to.The bottom blouse pockets need to be removed and placed on the upper arms, like on the current ACU. The top pockets need to be removed and placed on the bottom of the pants leg, also like on the ACU. Pockets on the chest serve no purpose. That's how we have our misson BDUs set up.

emsmiller
09-29-2010, 08:26 PM
I found this piece of gear that might work for Gabe's needs but either way it is an interesting piece of gear. Apparently it is an Ukrainian Assault Vest with a mesh body. It has pouches for 4 mags, another pouch for a radio and another for what it says more ammo. But I would just use it as a field dressing pouch. I am not too sure about the pads on the shoulder so I am guessing that is to make sure pack straps don't fall off. It also has what looks like 2 grenade pouches on the side of the vest. It will take a belt as well so you can fit the belt with what you need. The back of the vest also has the ability to take pouches like hydration panels. And now for the good stuff;)!

http://www.soviet-power.com/detail.php?pid=15500

Apparently I cannot post the pics as they are too big of a file size. So check out the link above for the pic. Sorry!

Another option is the Arktis Security Vest which ain't cheap but then again they make great gear from what I have seen.

mdr
10-04-2010, 10:30 AM
Have any of you guys tried the U.S. military fighting load vest?

http://shop.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/new-us-military-acu-fighting-load-vest.aspx?a=644954

ImFromTheGovt
10-04-2010, 10:41 AM
Search for Arktis USA on fleaBAY and you can get that security vest for under $50.

eaboecke
10-04-2010, 01:40 PM
Have any of you guys tried the U.S. military fighting load vest?

http://shop.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/new-us-military-acu-fighting-load-vest.aspx?a=644954

These are alright, not the best but they work. I used one when I had to but now I use more Gucci gear. Its the best system the Army has used for mass issue in my mind.

Most people pull out the molle belt and run it through so the vest so that the buckle is in the back so that you get a rack type system.

However when its hot out and you are only wearing the vest its nice to leave it unzipped and just use the buckles. (The zipper will die after several months of hard use)

About a year ago you could find brand new in the wrap dessert MOLLE II vests and pouches for cheap. (I picked up a vest for ~$12.00 when I was still a cadet). Pick one of those up and spray paint it. Better then spending extra for ACU which you will just end up painting anyway.

Razorback
10-05-2010, 10:20 AM
Gabe's a skinny bastard and I'm a cheap bastard.

I went with the (previously posted) LBV-88E (the enhanced one, the older one had the mag pouches vertical).

At less than $10 when I got them, I got several, and modified them.

AK mags are heavy, so when I removed the chest mags for the AR (which have a dual mag pouch and single mag pouch on each side, I only put two single mag pouches on each side. There's your 4 mags.

I have a canteen kit (canteen, cup, stove) on each hip, right side has a pistol holster, left side has a knife (roll up kind) in front of the canteens. I have a roll up dump pouch on the left in front of the knife (yeah, they'll hoit you in the thigh when you dump mags in there, but I figure if I have mags in there, I'm in the shit and won't feel it right then anyway, if I'm not in the shit, I'll have taken them out so they don't rattle).

You have two grenade pouches attached to the LBV. Since I don't have grnades, the left one holds my lensatic compass, the other holds a compression bandage and a triangular bandage. To either side (on the outside) of those pouches are single pistol mag pouches (total of 3 mags, including the one in the pistol). On the right side between the pistol holster and pistol mag I have a 100 round SAW pouch which has an actual Israeli bandage, Several packets of QuikClot, two H&H PriMed gauze, 2" surgical tape, regular gauze, etc.

For more than a day, I can add a buttpack (yes, it squishes up against the canteens), to carry food, hygiene kit, maybe extra ammo or first aid kit. For sleeping arragements, since I live in the south, the most I need in the winter is my ranger roll (poncho liner tied in a poncho) which gets rigged to the back of the LBV, on top of the buttpack.

One other nice thing about the LBV-88, is that it had snap closed straps on the shoulder harness to wrap around the straps of a ruck to keep them from sliding around on the LBV straps.

As light as this load is on the ammo and such (I mean you got some of the militia type guys talking about hauling 18-22 mags on them -- WTF, have they even tried carrying that?), it's still about as heavy as I want to go.

Bonnot
10-07-2010, 05:54 PM
So maybe you can all clear this up for me. When wearing a padded belt and suspenders setup how do you store your water? Do you wear a hydration carrier with straps over the suspenders? What happens when you need to wear a pack? My understanding is that often an LBE setup incorporates a pack of some kind.

So far I've come up with this setup.
-SoTech Contoured Padded Pistol Belt
-Emdom Battle Suspenders

The low profile battle suspenders allow for a pack to fit over comfertably and I can store my hydration bladder in the pack, but what happens when I need to ditch the pack? The only other alternative I can think of is getting something like the SoTech Hybrid Hydration Harness or Sniper Harness and just switch out the bladder when I need to ditch the bag, keeping the bladder in the carrier when I'm not wearing a pack and storing it in the pack when I'm wearing the pack. Does this make sense?

vlazlow
10-07-2010, 06:17 PM
Canteens on the LBE belt. If you ditch your pack you still have your first line gear to include H2O, ammo and pistol.

Clint B
10-07-2010, 06:37 PM
These are alright, not the best but they work. I used one when I had to but now I use more Gucci gear. Its the best system the Army has used for mass issue in my mind.

Most people pull out the molle belt and run it through so the vest so that the buckle is in the back so that you get a rack type system.

However when its hot out and you are only wearing the vest its nice to leave it unzipped and just use the buckles. (The zipper will die after several months of hard use)

About a year ago you could find brand new in the wrap dessert MOLLE II vests and pouches for cheap. (I picked up a vest for ~$12.00 when I was still a cadet). Pick one of those up and spray paint it. Better then spending extra for ACU which you will just end up painting anyway.


The original MOLLE gen 1 vest is better imo. I cant stand the zipper on these. I have my gen 1 set up like you describe with the buckle in the back. It makes a decent 'heavy' rig.

Gabe Suarez
10-07-2010, 07:11 PM
Canteens on the LBE belt. If you ditch your pack you still have your first line gear to include H2O, ammo and pistol.

That makes good sense V. I have been playing with it for a few days and the belt is getting less and less crowded. I am leaning to a belt with just water, pistol, and knife. And a chest rig type with the rifle fighting kit on it. Then a ruck sack for snivel gear, food, etc.

I like the layering concept as if I put EVERYTHING on the vest/chest rig, and you need to ditch it, you are SOL. I can think of several occasions when I did ditch my SWAT vest back in the day, and rural ops can't be THAT MUCH different.

chad newton
10-07-2010, 07:14 PM
That makes good sense V. I have been playing with it for a few days and the belt is getting less and less crowded. I am leaning to a belt with just water, pistol, and knife. And a chest rig type with the rifle fighting kit on it. Then a ruck sack for snivel gear, food, etc.

I like the layering concept as if I put EVERYTHING on the vest/chest rig, and you need to ditch it, you are SOL. I can think of several occasions when I did ditch my SWAT vest back in the day, and rural ops can't be THAT MUCH different.
What belt bro? The canteens arnt getting in the way?

pilgrim
10-07-2010, 08:19 PM
Canteens on the LBE belt. If you ditch your pack you still have your first line gear to include H2O, ammo and pistol.

Well, technically First Line gear attaches to your trouser belt, and/or is placed in the pockets of your clothing. First Line gear is considered 'un-ditchable'. Things worn on a padded pistol belt that is part of an LBE would technically be called Second Line Gear.

So... If we want a pistol, for example, to be part of our First Line, then technically we would have to attach it directly to our 'riggers' belt. BUT, we can't do this and wear any LBE as it won't work together. So then we have to use a drop leg rig to allow for clearance, or move the pistol to chest level in order to make our gear work together.

There is another 'snag' to this. Let's say I have my pistol on my belt as part of my first line gear and show up to a SI class like the October 29 KALASHNIKOV RIFLE MARKSMANSHIP class in Chattanooga. The class starts, I put on my chest rig and walk to the line... and Randy Harris immediately throws me into the nearby pond... because we don't allow CCW holsters with chest rigs! As he was throwing me into the pond he would be saying...

"Chest Rig/Tactical Vests are not allowed with CCW Holsters. If you wish to use a Chest Rig or a Tactical Vest, use a vest mounted holster or a thigh holster."

But I don't LIKE thigh holsters! So I have to sacrifice 2 rifle mags and place my pistol on my vest, and I don't like this either.

The only option for me then, is to use a padded MOLLE belt of some sort to attach my pistol, and call it my... 'First and-a-half Line' gear? In my own mind, I'm going to have to blur the lines between 1st and 2nd line, in order to make it work for me.

austin
10-07-2010, 08:40 PM
Recently worked with an retired navy spec-ops gent who showed me that he used military sleeping pad sections that he cut to size/fit and duct taped to his web belt/suspender gear to : A: extra pad the load, to eliminate hot spots during long treks and B: make his gear more buoyant while operating in water.


That is interesting, but I think the goal is to make things light enough that padding is a minor issue to begin with.

If you have spent any time in the water, you'd know what was up. That extra buoyancy helps a lot when you are tired or trying to do something besides tread water. A slight positive buoyancy is a good thing when carrying 20 pounds of metal.

We carried 5 ml plastic bags to help with water crossings (put your shoes and other stuff in the bag, tie it shut, and paddle across with it under your chest ) but I've heard beach balls are the cats meow. I'll have to think about the pad idea.

If you are spending a lot of time in and out of water, especially saltwater, a little bit of padding to prevent bad chafe goes a LOOONG way.

Liberty or Death
10-07-2010, 09:41 PM
. I am leaning to a belt with just water, pistol, and knife.

What kind of knife do you opt for?

I am leaning towards a Randall 'Bowie'.......

cco45acp
10-07-2010, 10:15 PM
Originally posted by Pilgrim
Well, technically First Line gear attaches to your trouser belt, and/or is placed in the pockets of your clothing. First Line gear is considered 'un-ditchable'. Things worn on a padded pistol belt that is part of an LBE would technically be called Second Line Gear.

So... If we want a pistol, for example, to be part of our First Line, then technically we would have to attach it directly to our 'riggers' belt. BUT, we can't do this and wear any LBE as it won't work together. So then we have to use a drop leg rig to allow for clearance, or move the pistol to chest level in order to make our gear work together.

There is another 'snag' to this. Let's say I have my pistol on my belt as part of my first line gear and show up to a SI class like the October 29 KALASHNIKOV RIFLE MARKSMANSHIP class in Chattanooga. The class starts, I put on my chest rig and walk to the line... and Randy Harris immediately throws me into the nearby pond... because we don't allow CCW holsters with chest rigs! As he was throwing me into the pond he would be saying...

"Chest Rig/Tactical Vests are not allowed with CCW Holsters. If you wish to use a Chest Rig or a Tactical Vest, use a vest mounted holster or a thigh holster."

But I don't LIKE thigh holsters! So I have to sacrifice 2 rifle mags and place my pistol on my vest, and I don't like this either.

The only option for me then, is to use a padded MOLLE belt of some sort to attach my pistol, and call it my... 'First and-a-half Line' gear? In my own mind, I'm going to have to blur the lines between 1st and 2nd line, in order to make it work for me.

Pilgrim - have you tried a Milt Sparks Summer Special holster on your pants belt?

I used to do this: Used a leg drop holster while wearing IBA but would have an empty leather IWB on my pants belt (along with one pistol mag, one rifle mag and multitool). When I could take off the body armor I'd take the leg drop off and slip the handgun in the IWB. The IWB was light and flexible enough it wasn't umcomfortable to wear empty while wearing IBA.

Now days it would be LBE for me not IBA so I'd put a kydex or flap holster (UM84?) on my LBE. When then LBE ccame off, the pistol would go into the IWB on my pants belt. I got so where I don't care for leg drops and am not particularly enamored with shoulder holsters.

eaboecke
10-07-2010, 10:21 PM
Well, technically First Line gear attaches to your trouser belt, and/or is placed in the pockets of your clothing. First Line gear is considered 'un-ditchable'. Things worn on a padded pistol belt that is part of an LBE would technically be called Second Line Gear.

So... If we want a pistol, for example, to be part of our First Line, then technically we would have to attach it directly to our 'riggers' belt. BUT, we can't do this and wear any LBE as it won't work together. So then we have to use a drop leg rig to allow for clearance, or move the pistol to chest level in order to make our gear work together.

There is another 'snag' to this. Let's say I have my pistol on my belt as part of my first line gear and show up to a SI class like the October 29 KALASHNIKOV RIFLE MARKSMANSHIP class in Chattanooga. The class starts, I put on my chest rig and walk to the line... and Randy Harris immediately throws me into the nearby pond... because we don't allow CCW holsters with chest rigs! As he was throwing me into the pond he would be saying...

"Chest Rig/Tactical Vests are not allowed with CCW Holsters. If you wish to use a Chest Rig or a Tactical Vest, use a vest mounted holster or a thigh holster."

But I don't LIKE thigh holsters! So I have to sacrifice 2 rifle mags and place my pistol on my vest, and I don't like this either.

The only option for me then, is to use a padded MOLLE belt of some sort to attach my pistol, and call it my... 'First and-a-half Line' gear? In my own mind, I'm going to have to blur the lines between 1st and 2nd line, in order to make it work for me.

Dude, you are way over thinking this.

There will never be an IDEAL RACK/LBE/Vest etc. Your mission drives your gear selection. If you are just patrolling or hunting on your land sans armor etc maybe a belt and suspenders is perfect.

Personally I like chest rigs because it takes the equipment off your waist and you can carry a heavy ruck and use the waist strap.

However I have been changing this point of view as I am doing more mounted ops and my Stryker is carrying my ruck. This also means I have to fit in squad leader hatch with all my kit. So I am re-evaluating belts and suspenders and see what works best.

Bonnot
10-08-2010, 02:39 AM
There will never be an IDEAL RACK/LBE/Vest etc. Your mission drives your gear selection.I think I got it. So one benefit of running a padded belt and suspenders setup is the ability to layer depending on the mission. If the mission calls for more gear to be carried, a vest/rack can be worn over the suspenders. If a padded belt and suspenders aren't enough and you needed to haul even more gear, you could then wear a pack over the two.

emsmiller
10-08-2010, 06:07 AM
Meaning various scenarios require different responses and are situational based. Let me give you and example. I decided to go hiking and so on. I am carrying a rifle. The situation is just normal times but there might be some trouble from illegal activities. I do not expect to be out for a long period of time and I can get help if needed. Let's say hiking in South TX near the border or similar. I am not going to war and etc.

So I would just use my level 1 response gear. That is the h harness and the web belt with appropriate gear like mag pouches, water, buttpack and other gear. Basically a light level gear. Specifically, I would carry my 74 or other rifle, approx. 150 rounds of ammo for it on the rifle and in pouches, a pistol with 3 mags, 1st aid, survival, water and other gear. If I thought I needed more gear, I wear a small pack.

Things are a little bit worse and might need some more gear. So I wear my Ferno medic vest with more gear (like SAR stuff and other gear) or my MOLLE vest with other gear. Just simply ramping up the level of supplies based on my needs and scenarios. Why a Ferno Medic vest? Because in general it is visible and again, meets my needs. The MOLLE vest is for those times when I need to be less obvious visibility wise or the situation dictates it. I would add a pack with extra ammo and so forth.

Things have really gone bad and I need to go all out. I carry both the harness and vest with extra ammo and pack has even more gear as well including more ammo.

Don't be afraid to mix/match the gear to your need. Like during SAR, I actually wear the harness and vest along with the pack. Don't carry a rifle so I use the mag pouches for other stuff. Or just take the pouches off. I make the gear work for what I need. Now I live in TX and it can get hot so I watch what I use and make sure that I don't get overheated. You can use a vest or other gear. Just practice heat management. Breaks, water, let the chest cool down by opening the vest and so on. I have included a standard pic of the Ferno vest I have at home just fyi.

MikeNV
10-08-2010, 08:00 AM
If you have spent any time in the water, you'd know what was up. That extra buoyancy helps a lot when you are tired or trying to do something besides tread water. A slight positive buoyancy is a good thing when carrying 20 pounds of metal.

We carried 5 ml plastic bags to help with water crossings (put your shoes and other stuff in the bag, tie it shut, and paddle across with it under your chest ) but I've heard beach balls are the cats meow. I'll have to think about the pad idea.

If you are spending a lot of time in and out of water, especially saltwater, a little bit of padding to prevent bad chafe goes a LOOONG way.

You got it....... the difference between being operational and non-operational.

lightfighter
10-08-2010, 08:06 AM
Pilgrim -

Quite a few companies make a simple slide holster that you can wear empty under a padded war belt. If you have to ditch the war belt you can remove the pistol and stick it in the slide holster attached to the riggers belt. When empty it collapses down to nothing.

I bought the S.O.E. version from Yeager

choirboy
10-08-2010, 08:41 AM
:( I have 10 more inches of belt space than Gabe:(

My real question is "camel backs" I have busted one surplus and one new, just working on the farm. I have never busted a canteen. I am diabetic. I fall a lot because of neuropathy in my feet. I also need to guzzle water. I keep a 3 oz dropper bottle of bleach to allow me to get water out of multiple creeks and springs on the land.

Now I do not expect a rubber bladder to survive a barbed wire fall but, I do expect one to hold under a pushing 300 lb back fall.

Any suggestions on the best water bladder?

Choirboy

Allen
10-08-2010, 08:50 AM
I like the source ones (http://www.source-military.com/category-all.html), due to the clean out system at the top if you put excessive pressure on them it will leak from that as opposed to puncturing the bladder. Another option are the MSR bladders (http://cascadedesigns.com/msr/water-treatment-and-hydration/category), which are made of either 200 or 1K Cordura coated with urethane. You can get them from 2L to 10 L and they have the option for a hydration system attachment.
Allen

choirboy
10-08-2010, 09:53 AM
Thanks Allen,

Welcome aboard !

Choirboy

Anthony
10-09-2010, 09:55 AM
That makes good sense V. I have been playing with it for a few days and the belt is getting less and less crowded. I am leaning to a belt with just water, pistol, and knife. And a chest rig type with the rifle fighting kit on it. Then a ruck sack for snivel gear, food, etc.

I like the layering concept as if I put EVERYTHING on the vest/chest rig, and you need to ditch it, you are SOL. I can think of several occasions when I did ditch my SWAT vest back in the day, and rural ops can't be THAT MUCH different.Yes.
"Layering" is the way to go.

Aswell as thinking about the need to 'ditch' a part and run, but still have your pistol etc, we also might well want to do different operations that don't require all our stuff.

For example:
A close quarters 'recce'. (CQR.)

So we are layed up, with our group.
We decide to do a closer recce of a certain place.
We are being covered by our group.
Why crawl/walk/whatever, down to the CQR.
We might have to run fast back to the group, to get out of there, if discovered.

Do we really want to carry a chest rig with everything?

Wouldn't it be best to just crawl down with belt, pistol, knife, some spare magazines and maybe a rifle in our hands? (Maybe not even the rifle, depending on the situation?)

The more we layer, the better IMHO.

Regards,
Anthony.

chad newton
10-09-2010, 10:12 AM
I dont know, in a small team, do you think you would want to ditch your gear? The only situation I could see wanting to ditch my rifle gear would be so I could be inconspicuous. Other then that I dont know if at a disadvantage with a small group already, I would ditch my rifle gear only to run like hell. You cant be inconspicuous with a belt loaded full of canteens and pistol and pistol mags. I dont know, if we are talking being comfortable, mabey putting more gear on your waist will balence the load better.

pilgrim
10-13-2010, 08:06 PM
Originally posted by Pilgrim

Pilgrim - have you tried a Milt Sparks Summer Special holster on your pants belt...

...Now days it would be LBE for me not IBA so I'd put a kydex or flap holster (UM84?) on my LBE. When then LBE ccame off, the pistol would go into the IWB on my pants belt. I got so where I don't care for leg drops and am not particularly enamored with shoulder holsters.

No I don't have a Summer Special yet. You would think that I would, seeing as I live in a place where it's summer most of the time. When I do go for an IWB holster, then it will most likely be a leather collapsible one so I have the option of using it exactly as you suggest. Good idea thanks.



Quite a few companies make a simple slide holster that you can wear empty under a padded war belt. If you have to ditch the war belt you can remove the pistol and stick it in the slide holster attached to the riggers belt. When empty it collapses down to nothing.

I bought the S.O.E. version from Yeager.


I've bought one of these type of holsters that Dillon Precision used to sell in the 90's, but it won't work because the edges of the holster will cut into you if you put something over it. But the S.O.E. slide should work perfectly for this. I never even thought of it. Thanks for the help.


Dude, you are way over thinking this.

There will never be an IDEAL RACK/LBE/Vest etc. Your mission drives your gear selection. If you are just patrolling or hunting on your land sans armor etc maybe a belt and suspenders is perfect.

Personally I like chest rigs because it takes the equipment off your waist and you can carry a heavy ruck and use the waist strap.

However I have been changing this point of view as I am doing more mounted ops and my Stryker is carrying my ruck. This also means I have to fit in squad leader hatch with all my kit. So I am re-evaluating belts and suspenders and see what works best.

Guilty as charged, I over think everything! Right now I'm thinking, that I like what your thinking.

And what Gabe is thinking...


I am leaning to a belt with just water, pistol, and knife. And a chest rig type with the rifle fighting kit on it. Then a ruck sack for snivel gear, food, etc.


Indeed, I need a MOLLE 'war belt' (must be padded) for my:

-Pistol carried at 2 o'clock.

-Water in modern clear plastic canteens shaped in GI style. Perhaps two of them placed at 4 and 7 o'clock.

-Knife... not sure exactly where to put it.

I like rifle mags (6 to 8 of them) up high in a chest rig. Putting rifle mags on the belt ends up getting in the way for me. Banging my knees... interfering with squatting... etc, so I'll keep the rifle mags high in a small sized chest rig.

Not sure if spare pistol mags should be on the belt or chest rig... or if a kydex single rifle mag pouch on the belt is a 'good' idea either. Wondering about a small dump pouch at 6 o'clock also.

The things I'm sure of are, pistol needs to be at belt level... rifle mags ride better for me on the chest... water in canteens must back up any hydration bladder worn on the back.

rikkitikkitavi
10-16-2010, 07:00 AM
I realize that load bearing setups are somewhat mission specific, and I dont have as much time under a ruck (3.5yrs ROTC) but I'll throw in my .02 anyway.


Background
Our ROTC battalion had a "Special Operations" section, this was 1987 before SP Ops was cool. I made selection in 1988 and took over the section in 1989, our sp ops advisor was SFC. Fraizer who was a nearing retirement age Green Beret with multiple combat tours . Our usual AO was Southern Ohio woodlands/farms.

Our mission aside from teaching at Bat functions was to do Recon and OPFOR. Equipment available at the time was the H and Y harness LBE.

Observations

LBE with the H harness is far more stable and comfortable than the Y.
The Canteen pouches were horrible and I often had blisters on my ass from the canteens.
Use cable ties for mounting pouches as the alice clips break easily
Dummycord anything you want to keep.

When we were doing short range (1-5mi) ambush/harassment my load out was as follows

Compass and map
M16A1
Knife
Gasmask bag with 6 extra 20rnd magazines and a vernors bottle full of water.
Grenade (smoke)
And usually a couple of MRE cookies in a thigh pocket.

No LBE, we were hit and run,

I don't play soldier anymore and don't see a likely situation that I ever will but if I did my load out would be as follows

GI LBV88 with pistol belt
2 New style canteen covers with canteen/cup
4x30 rnd mags
2x20rnd mags
hunting knife
GI compass
1944 buttpak
Poncho and liner

The lbv88 allows you to go prone as the mag pouches are angled off the center line, NO CHESTRIG should ever be marketed as "rifleman's" anything, as a rifleman I want to get as close to terra firma as possible!!


Rikki

civilgORe
10-16-2010, 08:40 AM
:( I have 10 more inches of belt space than Gabe:(

My real question is "camel backs" I have busted one surplus and one new, just working on the farm. I have never busted a canteen. I am diabetic. I fall a lot because of neuropathy in my feet. I also need to guzzle water. I keep a 3 oz dropper bottle of bleach to allow me to get water out of multiple creeks and springs on the land.

Now I do not expect a rubber bladder to survive a barbed wire fall but, I do expect one to hold under a pushing 300 lb back fall.

Any suggestions on the best water bladder?

Choirboy
HydraStorm Hydration systems are great bro. click on the link and then on the video tab at the bottom of the page.. pretty impressive. I run one and it does great.
http://www.blackhawk.com/product/100oz-AntiMicrobial-Replacement-Reservoir,915,1408.htm

Mike Freese
10-16-2010, 11:15 AM
Interesting thread, Lots of good input.

We have chewed this up in a few other threads, but it is always interesting.
A layered system is the Only way to go, IMO. Ditching gear may be as simple as caching rucks or other gear which would be part of a mission specific plan.
However, getting separated from a ruck can easily happen due to a variety of unforeseen circumstances. Gear can be lost during water crossings, mountain or other climbing ops, terrain hazards and certainly as the result of enemy action. Not part of the plan but we all know what happens to the "Plan".
I have always used a 3 layer approach.

1) Personal & E & E , knife and some water, Nav. Med -- Carried in uniform and on person. May also include sidearm.

2) Primary Fighting gear LBE, Vest, Chest rig, etc etc Mainly Ammo, Primary Water, Monoc/Binocs and any mission specific equip.(May include a buttpack if needed to carry Short rations, x- ammo etc)

3) Support Gear, Various rucks depending on amount of gear and length of mission. NVGs , Spare Ammo, E tool, Sleep/warmth gear, Food, Rope, Anticipated necessary clothing or ww gear. And again mission specific gear.

The Rolle bag is good, but if you are lacking for room on your belt, then I might suggest you think about a separate bag slung over your shoulder for a dump pouch.
I used to use what some called a "Musette" bag. Have know idea what the word means:rolleyes:. It was a small canvas bag... I've seen guys use old gas mask bags, claymore bags etc.

Like someone said, the camel-baks are a great new piece of kit, that would have been welcome back when.

Don't have much experience with chest rigs. But the few I experimented with were either what I considered substandard, or were too damn heavy and bulky.
I also dislike having anything on the level where my weapon side forearm falls when I am carrying the rifle.

Still like the old style LBE, if perhaps an updated version.
Some vests are nice, if the load is spread well, otherwise you are basically running a chest rig again.

At one time a few of us had the post ALSE tech modify some survival vests. Starting with the basic mesh vest stripped he would sew on four to six "Radio" pouches, they made decent mag pouches.

Gabe, for what you mentioned that you wanted to do,
(Extended tactical hike/run) I would think that that Com Bloc mesh security vest and a Camel-bak would work well. Less pounding up and down while running than most Chest rigs.

Sam Spade
10-16-2010, 11:50 AM
A tangential thought:


Too much velcro out there. No, it's not that it's noisy. It's that the hooks get well and truly clogged after swimming through the mud. Then they don't hook any more.

The best fastener I've ever found is the latch on the flap of the Bianchi UM84 holster. I'd love a set of gear that uses that system. The plastic closures on the old Alice 30-round mag pouches were good, but would eventually break. The webbing and metal loop closure on the older M14 pouches were good, too.

ScottT
10-16-2010, 01:47 PM
My real question is "camel backs" I have busted one surplus and one new, just working on the farm. I have never busted a canteen. I am diabetic. I fall a lot because of neuropathy in my feet. I also need to guzzle water. I keep a 3 oz dropper bottle of bleach to allow me to get water out of multiple creeks and springs on the land.

Now I do not expect a rubber bladder to survive a barbed wire fall but, I do expect one to hold under a pushing 300 lb back fall.

Choirboy

I busted a Camelback bladder by leaning back against a tree on a deer hunt. Quite uncomfortable at the time. I went back to standard military canteens. Simple, cheap, and idiot proof.

bonehedz
10-18-2010, 03:16 PM
Now I do not expect a rubber bladder to survive a barbed wire fall but, I do expect one to hold under a pushing 300 lb back fall.

Any suggestions on the best water bladder?

ChoirboyMSR Hydromedary bladders have, so far, proven to be even Bonehedz proof (set a full one down; it did its slinky-octopus slide away, over a twenty five foot drop onto shale talus, rolling/bouncing a couple hundred more feet before coming to a stop under a downed pine tree. I doubt any rubber bladder would have survived the drop...
http://cascadedesigns.com/msr/water-treatment-and-hydration/basecamp-water-treatment-and-hydration/hydromedary-hydration-system/product of course YMMV...BH

Lowlander
10-19-2010, 02:13 PM
How about this for a (spare) canteen: http://polimil.co.uk/acatalog/Web-tex_Surviva-Pure.html

Mossyrock
10-22-2010, 08:42 AM
I come at this from kind of an "old school" perspective. I joined the Army in 1982, and spent six and a half years in Alaska in a Light Infantry Division as part of a 23 year career. I started out with ALICE gear, and ended, for just a few years, with the new MOLLE gear. With most of my career firmly entrenched in the Cold War, I tend to favor the ALICE system. The new vests distribute weight well, but they are HOT and make it VERY difficult to shoot from the prone. Because of this thread, I am rebuilding my LBE based upon the set-up that worked well for me for over 20 years. It's all about balance and even weight distribution. Two ammo pouches, two canteens with cups, a buttpack (first aid supplies, "space blanket" and can be used as a mag dump pouch), holster for Glock 19 with a Streamlight attached (Tactical Tailor), and a double pistol mag pouch on the off-side. This is all hung on a GI pistol belt with quick release buckle and H-harness suspenders. I MUCH prefer the H-harness to the Y for comfort and weight distribution. Aside from swapping the Bianchi M-84 flap M-9 holster for the Tactical Tailor holster, this was my normal load out. The only other change I am making is to substitute the larger, canvas mag pouches for the M14 for the nylon M16 ammo pouches. This gives me the ability to carry FAL mags in lieu of 30rd AR mags. I don't know if AK74 mags will fit yet...I haven't tried them. Once I get it put together, I'll post some pics

Anthony
10-22-2010, 09:48 AM
Once I get it put together, I'll post some picsPlease do! - Post pics. :)

I am like you Sir.

I started carrying stuff back in 1978.
I have watched the new stuff come in.
I have seen it in the theatre.

I love the new materials, but I have yet to be convinced on the new ideas.

Plus these days, there is the Body Armor issue, which in itself really upsets our possibilities with certain positions, - especially prone.

Back in my day, in N.I. we could choose to wear, or not, Body Armor.
I chose to do so (in Crossmaglen, - the town,) but in the countryside surrounding the town we didn't have it.

In the town we were "walking targets". :(
In the countryside, we could really use our fieldcraft skills. :)

I do not like chest rigs.
Sorry, but I just don't.

When being shot at, I like to get myself as close to the ground as I possibly can. ;)

Regards,
Anthony.

P.D.
10-22-2010, 11:38 AM
When being shot at, I like to get myself as close to the ground as I possibly can. ;)


The expression back in my day was 'get lower than a snake's dick'.






And for what it's worth, this is my 1948th post. 1948 - is also the year I was born.:eek: Just had to pay tribute to it.

Mossyrock
10-22-2010, 11:44 AM
And for what it's worth, this is my 1948th post. 1948 - is also the year I was born.:eek: Just had to pay tribute to it.

Congratualtions...and thanks for making me feel young! :eek:

WIG19
10-22-2010, 01:05 PM
A tangential thought:


Too much velcro out there. No, it's not that it's noisy. It's that the hooks get well and truly clogged after swimming through the mud. Then they don't hook any more.

The best fastener I've ever found is the latch on the flap of the Bianchi UM84 holster. I'd love a set of gear that uses that system. The plastic closures on the old Alice 30-round mag pouches were good, but would eventually break. The webbing and metal loop closure on the older M14 pouches were good, too.I like the quiet. Miserable as I've been in fully-soaked old canvas stuff a few times, that last was a damn good pouch, useful for other stuff as well.

And since we're both apparently a tad younger than P.D. if Mossyrock ever does a yard sale on a canvas M14 pouch or two....;)

As many do, I tend to "fill" pockets & space if given the opportunity. But there's no rule that says I have to load up the chest-rig to its max and add even more. If I needed to run heavier than my layers topped by the Insurgent for some reason, I probably would go to a cold-war era H-based LBE affair.

Mossyrock
10-22-2010, 01:38 PM
As I discovered in my misspent youth, you can load up an LBE to just the wrong side of uncomfortably heavy...especially with a full load of mags, water, grenades and extra ammo and broken-down rations in the butt-pack. Then, of course, on top of the LBE, you get the thrill and joy of humping a ruck with 2/3 of your body weight for 12-15 miles...in Alaska...in the Winter. Light Infantry! Too heavy to run, too light to fight!

colson
10-22-2010, 04:45 PM
I come at this from kind of an "old school" perspective. I joined the Army in 1982, and spent six and a half years in Alaska in a Light Infantry Division as part of a 23 year career. I started out with ALICE gear, and ended, for just a few years, with the new MOLLE gear. With most of my career firmly entrenched in the Cold War, I tend to favor the ALICE system. The new vests distribute weight well, but they are HOT and make it VERY difficult to shoot from the prone. Because of this thread, I am rebuilding my LBE based upon the set-up that worked well for me for over 20 years. It's all about balance and even weight distribution. Two ammo pouches, two canteens with cups, a buttpack (first aid supplies, "space blanket" and can be used as a mag dump pouch), holster for Glock 19 with a Streamlight attached (Tactical Tailor), and a double pistol mag pouch on the off-side. This is all hung on a GI pistol belt with quick release buckle and H-harness suspenders. I MUCH prefer the H-harness to the Y for comfort and weight distribution. Aside from swapping the Bianchi M-84 flap M-9 holster for the Tactical Tailor holster, this was my normal load out. The only other change I am making is to substitute the larger, canvas mag pouches for the M14 for the nylon M16 ammo pouches. This gives me the ability to carry FAL mags in lieu of 30rd AR mags. I don't know if AK74 mags will fit yet...I haven't tried them. Once I get it put together, I'll post some pics

Came in 1983, went to the 82nd. Know where you are coming from, I had the exact same experience. After my first week in the field I went down town and bought a pair of jungle boots, a set of camo jungle fatigues, and I swithed my "Y" harness to the "H" harness that I was using for my HK-91.

For patrolling type stuff the setup you mentioned still works but my later experience doing a lot of urban and vehicle stuff (with body armor) led me to the chest rack and that is where I remain.

Razorback
10-23-2010, 08:19 AM
For guys that like the old stuff, but the new materials, check out FMCO.

They make new versions of the H-harness and LBV-88, but make them out of 1000D Cordura, and you can get ALICE buckles or Fastex Buckles on the pouches, and get them to use either ALICE clip attachments or MOLLE web attachments.

YARP
10-25-2010, 02:38 PM
This is a thought, I won't have actual knowledge on the concept until after I play with it a bit so bear with me.

I'm waiting on a Hazard 4 evac rocket bag. They are similar to the SO Tech go bag but look to be a little more comfortable with a little less in the molle attachment and a few more dedicated pouches. The main pouch is 19.75 x 8.75 x 6.25” and is perfect for my broken down MGI AR pistol and the mags that go with it. The outside pouches should be able to fit any and all of my "survival/medical gear". There is also room for a 3L camel back that can create a bit of a cushion for the contents of the bag against your back. The bag is very accessible by bringing it around to the front and wearing it basically as a chest rig when needed. I'm pretty excited about it to say the least.
there is a place on the bag that has molle attachment points that would be the perfect size to add two drop leg pouches, so when you need them you just pop them off and throw the belt around. I've been running a Jax Pax bug out belt for awhile now and really like how much the leg pouches reduce felt weight as well as drastically reduce fatigue. This is pretty important when your knees are as awesome as mine:rolleyes:
The only thing I didn't like about that "belt" was the butt pack, it just never sat right. It was either to light (flopped around) or so heavy that when it did flop around I felt like I was getting a spanking with every stride. In short good for walking, bad for running.
I suppose this all goes along with the layering approach which I've always kind of liked but the truth of it is I've never been a huge fan of vests or shoulder harnesses they always seem to get hung up on something and make me feel like all the weights on my shoulders. So I've stayed away from the layer approach. It's always been what ever fits in my pockets and then a bag (not really much layering going on there.
This systems approach is to fit my 2 gun (AR pistol+Glock) and 3 gun (AR pistol+Glock+Savage Rifle) concept.

For the GPR approach (one gun=FAL) I think I may stick with one of my maxpedition bags. It holds enough mags and I can throw my G29 with a mag or two in the back of it. It turns into a belt worn bag also. Can't remember the name.

Clint B
10-25-2010, 03:10 PM
As I discovered in my misspent youth, you can load up an LBE to just the wrong side of uncomfortably heavy...especially with a full load of mags, water, grenades and extra ammo and broken-down rations in the butt-pack. Then, of course, on top of the LBE, you get the thrill and joy of humping a ruck with 2/3 of your body weight for 12-15 miles...in Alaska...in the Winter. Light Infantry! Too heavy to run, too light to fight!

Dont forget pulling your sled behind you on snow shoes! What years were you arctic light? I was there 02-07 (Wainwright)

Mossyrock
10-25-2010, 03:12 PM
Dont forget pulling your sled behind you on snow shoes! What years were you arctic light? I was there 02-07 (Wainwright)

'86-'92. I started off at Wainwright, and spent the last three years at Richardson.

Clint B
10-25-2010, 03:19 PM
'86-'92. I started off at Wainwright, and spent the last three years at Richardson.

Ah the cold weather gear sucked ass back in those days!
You probably still have frost-bite.:D
An arctic light infantrymans best friend is a CH-47.

Mossyrock
10-25-2010, 03:27 PM
Ah the cold weather gear sucked ass back in those days!
You probably still have frost-bite.:D
An arctic light infantrymans best friend is a CH-47.

I started out in an Air Cav Squadron. Me and one other guy would get on the bird with an ahkio sled with a tent, a stove, five gallons of water, five gallons of fuel and a case of MREs. They would then transport us out to the middle of freakin' NOWHERE, and dump us off to establish a forward command post. You don't know lonely until you watch that bird take off and fly away in a snowstorm and it's 15 degrees below zero..... :eek:

Doug in CO
10-25-2010, 04:03 PM
Lots of good stuff on there:

http://www.antipersonnel.net/fmco/005.html#1

Mossyrock
10-31-2010, 12:05 PM
Lots of good stuff on there:

http://www.antipersonnel.net/fmco/005.html#1

Absolutely! I can see two of their M-14 mag pouches replacing the canvas pouches I currently have.

YO_Doc
11-03-2010, 09:45 PM
Getting this back on track some.

11623

This is my rig, that I use for rural/wilderness dismounted work. It is a mix of the Eagle MOLLE H Harness and pouches from several vendors. This set up is very comfortable, and is not a problem to have on for very long periods of time. I have been using this rig for about 4 years now. It will hold anything from 4 to 12 mags, 2-5 L of H20, food and snivel gear. Over the years I have run this rig in many configurations. It works very well.

I'm about to replace this rig with one that is simmular in the next few months as it works very well, I'm just looking to shed some weight and going to a semi custom 500D rig.

This rig works okay with a plate carrier, but not so well with a CIRAS. But I still maintain a full chest rig for use with full armor.

Pokeguyjai
11-03-2010, 11:13 PM
Very nice...

GoldDot
11-03-2010, 11:57 PM
I prefer a good chestrig over an all-in one vest or a harness setup.

While a harness will comfortably distribute the weight of you loadout around your body, it will not allow the proper use of a big backpack like a bergen/berghaus type. They come with a nice waist stabilizer belt which puts a lot of the weighton your hips. A harness doesn't go well with it unless you strap it very high. Then you will have to remove the pouches from the back what leaves you more or less with an uncomfortable chestrig.

A all in one armored battlevest/ plate carrier setup is ok as long as you insist on the protectionlevel. Too heavy to run, too heavy to climb, too hot, too what ever.

Go with a nice chestrig like the ones made by Arktis. You can grab it at dark o'clock when woken up by the mates and run.

You could also carry it over a your body armor if you choose to use it when you have to play the sitting duck or they tell you to.

A chestrig also goes well with a big backpack it is the only comfortable option when you use vehicles.

On could even carry the chestrig under a jacket for concealment with the rifle in a backpack and the pistole in your pants playing Joe average on a hiking tour.

GoldDot
11-04-2010, 08:12 AM
The chestrig I prefer is the Arktis Classic Chestrig 1725 produced by Arktis Ltd.

The OD model would get my nod for general purpose.

The quality is the best I have seen so far.

gunplumber
11-04-2010, 09:32 AM
I think this is a very important thread. Weapon, ammunition, and means of transporting need to all be considered and tested together as a package deal. Failure to do so means discovering weaknesses in your "plan" at an inopportune moment.

I first discovered on my first road march as an M60 Gunner. I learned that 6 x 100 round boxes of ammo dangling from the cotton strap they're packed in causes brutal rashes and sores and bounces about. It wasn't long before I had my ammo S-rolled in demo bags and weight distributed between my webgear and pack. But that very miserable 12 miles convinced me to test anything I need to carry before it matters.

I am not happy with any setup, really. I experimented with a $50 condor vest and was actually pretty happy with it - until an airsoft pellet broke the zipper during force on force. I'm cutting the zipper off when I get some free time and replacing it with another fastex buckle. It already has two. The GI one has no zipper. I use a zipper vest in paintball too and it really makes a difference in weight distribution over a looser fit, at the cost of less breathing. And before you mock paintball, I've found it a great way to test the fit of different load carrying gear under field conditions. It is where I really learned to appreciate the weight distribution, and "lack of bouncing around while running" of a vest over a chest pouch


http://www.arizonaresponsesystems.com/wp/paintball98.jpg


I liked it because it could be adjusted tight enough that it didn't bounce around. Downside was that it was heavier (hotter) than it needed to be.

I also needed a couple canteens on the back to counter balance the weight of the AK mags on the front. It was quite comfortable to carry 10 mags. 8 on the 4 inboard pouches and 1 in the most outboard pouches. Could do 2, but one let me keep my arms in tighter. Can carry a handgun on one of the outboard pouches, so I believe in 6 pouches even if all 6 aren't used.

Girl-child wore the same setup with 4 2-mag pouches, with only one mag in each.

http://www.arizonaresponsesystems.com/wp/akclass-09b.jpg

I'll tell you, one thing I noticed at this and other classes, was that some students would change their gear and method of carry to that which was most convenient for that section of the class. I am all for adapting to new situations, and a turn-out rig is not for all occasions. But I saw people with discreet carry like a sneaky bag leave their bag aside when the exercise didn't absolutely demand it. I wore my hot heavy ninja-gear for all 5 days. And no, it isn't 'cause I like to play dress-up. I found out a lot of pros and cons from that method of wearing gear that I wouldn't have discovered if I took it off every time I could complete an exercise without it.

The time to find out your gear chaffs is before you're using it for real, and that doesn't happen unless you wear it for miles.

But I don't like the chest rig or vest from prone. Puts me up too high. My old favorite for getting low is the LC2 open in the front. Old school, but it does have some advantages.

As far as the LC-2, the best combination I've found is 4 pouches in the front - the GI pouches for AR mags, with the grenade holders cut off, or if you don't think you need to carry 12 mags, then 2-mag holders that carry the mags flat against your body work well too, and I think distribute the weight better than using the commercial AR GI type pouch that holds 4 mags instead of three.

For 20 rd .308 mags, there are commercial pouches like the GI AR pouches , as well as the older canvas vietnam era, but I don't like the tong fastener.

There is room in front for a compass on one side and a battle dressing on the other. Then there is room for a holster or knife. Then a canteen on each hip and a butpack in the back. I adjust the belt so it is a tight fit above my hips, then add in a piece of parachute cord (why I use the older brass buckle instead of the new plastic one) with a loop in it.

MOST GEAR TODAY IS SET UP FOR VEHICLE OPERATIONS. This is pretty important. Wearing a pack completely changes the strategy of a load carrying system from that when you are carrying your assault gear only and the rest is on your Hummer or Stryker or whatever. You can't have anything on the back of the harness if you're going to wear a pack on top of it. This two-height system I was taught lets me drop the harness low when wearing a pack, with the extender to fasten it around my hips, or to raise it up over my hips (better weight distribution) when not carrying a pack.

The basic plan is to have your bare survival items on your person, your fighting gear on the harness, and the rest in your pack. If you have to run for your life, you can drop the pack. In a situation where you must ditch your weapon and harness, you still have the bare necessities in your pockets.

http://www.arizonaresponsesystems.com/wp/bcfal03.jpg

continued, since I can only post 4 images

gunplumber
11-04-2010, 10:01 AM
And the same setup with pack (not the best view, but I'm dealing with pics I already have)


http://www.arizonaresponsesystems.com/wp/c312sfga02.jpg

http://www.arizonaresponsesystems.com/wp/armyrgr-516b.jpg

note how dropping the suspenders down puts the pack above the belt instead of on top of it

http://www.arizonaresponsesystems.com/wp/armyrgr-713b.jpg

YO_Doc
11-04-2010, 09:48 PM
Golddot; I use my belt kit W/O problem with my Eagle AIII, SoTech MMS, LBT-2657 and LBT-1749. Well Some setup's become ridiculously heavy but that's the only problem. I also have a LBT-1961 A-R that I will run with the same series of packs depending on what my needs are, again W/O problems.

Often when training I'm out and about in crazy steep or technical terrain between 9000 and 11000 feet above sea level so this does have a big impact on my gear. The need to have a low center of gravity in steep or technical terrain is very important. Also if when going prone, having your chest free is a very nice thing.
Also riding in trucks with guns and humping your gear for miles for several days are two very different tasks that will cause me to pick different gear.

GoldDot
11-05-2010, 01:58 AM
If you were to carry a backpack together with a LBD harness setup you could strap it high and remove all pouches of the back or you could strap it very low and wear you Bergen on top.

I personally do not like the latter solution since all your gear is far down there and it is not compatible with vehicle use.

I can see the benefit of a low point of gravity in mountainous terrain though.

The strap high solution left me with the chestrig. It goes together with a decent backpack, with vehicle use and you could just wear it on top of your bodyarmour.

Indeed, going prone is not optimal with it, but the mags are higher up than in a harness. I personally find it more uncomfortable to rest my lower body on the gear.

Overall it brews together to an Arktis chestrig for me.

71178
11-05-2010, 05:57 AM
11642

Here was the default setup we had at Fort Benning. I adjusted it high towards my chest, otherwise it would bounce/rub on my hips during the long ruck marches. It is also good for squatting, prone, and running.

It was up high enough that it would not interfere with hip movement or squatting, but low enough to be able to access pouches easily. The uniform magazines across the front made prone more comfortable.

If the vest was loose and you were sprinting up from prone, it would slow you down or even use momentum to knock you over (ya, it was me). If it was worn low it would bounce against your legs when you sprinted.

The vest had excellent adjustability. With the vest high, you had the option of resting your elbows in to your mag pouches for a rest for better accuracy.



Now the cons. I hated the two canteen pouches at my left and right sides: it made it very awkward and difficult to make natural strides with your arms. All the weight on the front would put lots of stress on the neck without a counter-weight on the back.

So for my civi-vest, I found a cheap vest with the camelbak pouch attached to it. It works well as a counter weight. If you don't have time to put the camelbak in your ruck, it's no problem to put your ruck on top of the camelbak (if you do this with a separate camelbak bag, it will off-center and make your ruck feel even heavier. People who did that always needed help to straighten it out).

I have six single stack rifle mag pouches on the front. The four middle ones have magazines; the two by my side have a Glock in a kydex holster and a Israeli pressure dressing as to not interfere with my arm movement.
2 pistol mags are on the left and a gp pouch on the right and a large dump pouch on the back. I can always add more rifle mag pouches if the mission needs it.

The Gerber LMF II is drop leg. Now I like the idea of having a 1 qt canteen w/canteen cup attached to the first layer for basic survival needs but could not figure out how.
But thanks to everyone, next time I go out I will try a belt with H harness without padding for the canteen and knife.


This is what works for me so far. I hope it is readable and makes sense. I will post a picture of my vest when I can.

Nathan

Mossyrock
11-05-2010, 06:04 AM
OK, getting my rig together. Pieces and parts are trickling in. Just a few observations...most of the A.L.I.C.E. gear that is currently on the market is NOT MIL-SPEC. Out of all the stuff I ordered, the ONLY piece that was actual GI was the web belt. Everything else was either made in India or China (PTOOI!!). The exception being the Tactical Tailor holster. I KNOW where it was made, and talked to the gal who did the sewing. Good stuff.

Anyway, the M-14 pouches I ordered are crap. I ended up taking my old M-16 pouches and using them. If you cut the dividers out, they hold two FAL mags very nicely. There is a WORLD of difference between GI A.L.I.C.E. clips and aftermarket. The aftermarket are generally thin crap that feel like they are made out of old beer cans. They let stuff slide around on the web belt. Totally unsat. They will be going in the trash to be replaced with GI clips, or the clips Tactical Tailor uses. That are rubbery plastic that be used on MOLLE or ALICE. I also see the belt hooks on the harness being replaced with 550 cord. This is something I used to do and will be doing again. With 4 loaded FAL mags, a loaded G-19 with two spare mags and two full quart canteens, loaded weight is around 23 pounds. I still have a few things to put in the butt pack (poncho, blow out kit, Quick-Clot, etc) and figure my final weight will be right around 25 pounds +/-.

I got up at 0400 this morning, put on my gear and went for a four mile stroll. I felt every pound, every step and every year I was carrying. Damn, but this getting old stuff sucks....

RTMetz
11-05-2010, 04:16 PM
Two setups here. One is overdone, the other is more streamlined.

11659

This one I built when Blackhawk was running a clearance sale on all of their OD MOLLE gear. It's fairly bulky, but can be thinned out to the bare essentials. It has two 8 mag magazine pouches on the front (AR), one IMAK, one canteen, one LRRP buttpack, two large utility pockets pibbybacked on the upper back, and one compass pouch on the left shoulder.


11660

This one was almost totally free. Blackhawk MOLLE vest, one AR quad mag pouch, one double pistol mag pouch, one 40mm greanade pouch (for OC), one LRRP buttpack (on back), one 3 mag shingle, two open top single mag shingle pouches, and one IMAK (on back).

All told, both sets cost a total of $250. I've gone on long hikes with both, and the vest is comfortable but hot. The H style harness is cooler, but way overloaded when full. Going to drop it down to one mag carrier and redistribute some weight. Both get paired with a coyote brown riggers belt.

colson
11-05-2010, 05:37 PM
rtmetz, have you tried putting the pistol under your right arm, where you have the scissors? I think you will find that it tucks nicely under the arm, is out of the way yet accessable, and if you go prone you won't grind it into the dirt.

71178
11-06-2010, 12:15 AM
I said I'd post it so here it is.

11663

11664

11665

This is my Frankenstein rig. The chest rig is a cheap Condor rig. The adjustability is terrible, so I have cut and sewn many times and many places to make it fit me.

My final adjustment will be to add a flap to protect the pistol from muck. The knive and canteen are on my belt for e&e, and they are not in the way.

This discussion has got me thinking and rearrange things to be lighter and more specific to my needs. I like having the canteen on layer one since water is as essential as a knife, firesteel, quickclot and tourny.

Having a 2 liter camelbak on the back is very nice for balancing out the mags on the front. It is also a great way to stay hydrated if you need to stay still in the prone for long periods of time.

If you might want to try this setup, just buy a usgi molle II flc. They are adjustable and could be modified to fit anyone - successful life body or twig. I never had any issues with them being hot. I will order one sooner or later, but for now Frankenstein does the job.

Nathan

gunplumber
11-06-2010, 08:19 AM
I see you used spraypaint. Doesn't work very well on nylon. just soaks in, not much pigment left. Latex paint works great. I was painting my house, inside and out, with a total of 4 shades of brown and some white for the ceiling. I noticed the jeans I was wearing looked like multicam with all the paint drips on them. The light went off in my head.

I used to have one set of gear in FDE, the other in woodland. I would actually make a buying decision based on color. WTF? I know it is silly, but I also know I'm not alone with my past vanity for color-coordination. Now I embrace my non-color matched web gear. When buying pouches, I'll buy deliberately in different colors (which is good color disruption by itself). Then take a disposable sponge brush, cut it into a square tip, and "digitize" everything with bands of polka-dots (polka-squares?). Now, everything matches by not matching

Best I've found for sonoran desert is a flat dark earth as the base. It looks a lot like multicam. The ACU - while it sucks as camo anywhere and everywhere, is an ok base for paint. The olive, not so much, but probably a good base for wooded terrain.

http://www.arizonaresponsesystems.com/wp/camotest-08.jpg

Richard W Comerford
11-06-2010, 09:28 AM
Re: Early Dark Ages Patrol LBE

This might not be relevant; but back at the dawn of time the following improvised rig worked pretty well for dismounted patrolling:

1. An issue pistol belt

2/ Six canteen covers (old 1956 style)

3. The two canteen covers on the non-firing (NF) side each had a fieldd dressing on the botton and four 20-round mags on top (placed upside down rounds facing out) with gutted 550 (para) cord on bottom of each mag as a pull loop.

4, Two canteen covers on firing side (FS) held frags and WP grenades with paper tape on spoons.

5. Two canteen covers on back with actual canteens in them! The canteen were connected to belt with 550 cord. The NF canteen cover also had a canteen cup with electrical tape on lips and aluminum foil at bottom of cover.

6. On the front NF side of the yoke or harness was taped a strobe and pen gun flare kit.

&. The FS of the harness was left slick so the butt of the CAR-15 could be proeprly mounted in the pocket of the FS shoulder.

7. On the back of the yoke where it met high on the back a can of blood expander was taped.

If the guy was too skinny for 6 canteen covers then he carried his frags in a "fag bag", a claymore bag, with the strap over the NF shoulder and the bag at pistol belt level on his FS.

If the patrol intended to break contact with gas ("CS") then the mask was carried on a claymore bag on the NF side.

As little as humanly possible was carried on the front of the body so the solider could prone out as flat as possible.

If a pistol (Often silenced large frame High Standard .22) was carried it was either placed in a tankers holster or on the jungle fatigues pants belt.

All other gear was either on the body, in the jungle fatigues or in and on the jungle ruck (Claymores were secured to top of ruck by sewing claymore bag to ruck flap.

God bless

Richard W Comerford

jamgusmc
11-06-2010, 10:53 AM
So Gabe, you got alot of suggestions and opinions, what did you end up going with? To me it looks like a nice LBE setup for "humps" and a Tac Vest for mounted travel.

RTMetz
11-06-2010, 04:25 PM
rtmetz, have you tried putting the pistol under your right arm, where you have the scissors? I think you will find that it tucks nicely under the arm, is out of the way yet accessable, and if you go prone you won't grind it into the dirt.


I have. Could never get it to ride in such a way that it was quick to draw. Maybe an actual holster would work better than a mag pouch. I'll have to get one of my MOLLE holsters out of the storage space and try it out. Thanks for the tip.

gunplumber
11-06-2010, 05:25 PM
I wonder if someone will make a holster designed to fit into a mag pouch?

colson
11-06-2010, 05:43 PM
I wonder if someone will make a holster designed to fit into a mag pouch?

Lots of mag pouch pistol holsters on the market now, check Eagle and Blackhawk.

Back in 1997 I modified my Eagle Assault Vest with velcro and the thumb snap from another holster so that it would securely hold my M9 just left of centerline. It cut my transition time down quite a bit and was an improvement over the SAS style drop holsters that we were using. Another advantage of this position was that the pistol was accessible with either hand. Nowadays I go with the pistol under my right armpit, out of the way when prone or crawling over a wall.

I showed the President of Eagle, John Somethin? my holster. Next year his version was in the catalog.

Mossyrock
11-06-2010, 08:07 PM
OK, I have my rig at a 90% solution. Still have to swap the belt hooks out for 550 cord. I have several hundred feet of the stuff around here somewhere...damned if I can find it. Anyway, this is what it looks like...

Front
11667

Rear
11668

Left
11669

Right
11670

FMCO .308 mag Pouch and Tactical Tailor light-capable holster (G19 w/grip reduction)
11671

The FMCO Mag pouch just showed up today, and I have to say that I am deeply impressed. Well designed, well constructed, and made in the USA. I still need to add the requisite buttpack fodder, to include poncho, blowout kit and other necessaries. In addition to carrying stuff, I also use the buttpack as a dump pouch for empty mags. Oh, and in case you are wondering, the oil stains on the shirt are from cleaning my FAL this afternoon...not from fried chicken.

P.D.
11-06-2010, 09:19 PM
Food for thought:
Why not put both rifle mag pouches on the same side and move the pistol mag pouch to the front? It would save you reaching cross body for the rifle mags.
Your surefire light needs to be moved and 'dope-roped' to you if you want to have it when you need it.

remington79
11-07-2010, 01:03 AM
Does that M1A pouch have an internal mag divider? It looks like it in the picture but I just want to make sure.

gunplumber
11-07-2010, 06:33 AM
could you p[rovide alink please to a commercially available holster designed to fit as an insert into a mag pouch? I googled it and went through hundreds of images, as well as Eagle's website, and found nothing.

colson
11-07-2010, 06:44 AM
could you p[rovide alink please to a commercially available holster designed to fit as an insert into a mag pouch? I googled it and went through hundreds of images, as well as Eagle's website, and found nothing.

OK, our wires crossed a little, I mean that there are holsters that are simply modified mag pouches that you atttach to your vest (MOLLE). They feature thumb snap retention and the option to pull the flap over the pistol.

If you have the non-MOLLE vest you can do what I did with shoo goo and velcro and make your own.

twodogstx
11-07-2010, 06:45 AM
GP, I have been looking for such a holster as well, with no joy. This week I have been experimenting with my older Ehud holster, securing it into the mag pouch with a two inch internal strap. (this setup works extremely well with my horseback riding rig: Hawkepack Micro....much better than the supplied thumb break retention system ) If i can get it dialed in, I will post pics.

Mossyrock
11-07-2010, 06:53 AM
Food for thought:
Why not put both rifle mag pouches on the same side and move the pistol mag pouch to the front? It would save you reaching cross body for the rifle mags.
Your surefire light needs to be moved and 'dope-roped' to you if you want to have it when you need it.

Interesting idea. I'll give it a try. I think it might screw up the weight distribution, though. Ignore the Surefire; it doesn't live there.

Mossyrock
11-07-2010, 07:04 AM
Does that M1A pouch have an internal mag divider? It looks like it in the picture but I just want to make sure.

Yes. Very well done.

Anthony
11-07-2010, 07:13 AM
Interesting idea. I'll give it a try. I think it might screw up the weight distribution, though. Ignore the Surefire; it doesn't live there.I would personally keep one rifle magazine pouch each side, - to even the weight distribution.

I would position them further to the rear.
I would put the pistol magazine double pouch to the left front. - It is flatter and will hinder the prone position less.

The pistol holster can be either in front of the right side rifle mag pouch or behind it, - whichever you feel is preferable for you?

But you have belt space to position everything further to the rear IMHO, which makes for a more comfortable 'package' overall, - particularly in prone.

Even just walking, pouches to the front will rub on the front of our thighs on a hike, - particularly going uphill.

Generally though, I really like your set up.
Simple. - Similar to what I have used in the past.

Regards,
Anthony.

gunplumber
11-07-2010, 08:21 AM
I'm thinking something simple like thick closed-cell foam, hot-wire cut to be a mirror profile of the gun. Will offer a small degree of padding, and keep the gun oriented and at a given height. If the pouch comes with a drain hole, the hole can be used to secure the foam in the pouch with a small toggle like a Chicom AK mag flap.

As to dividers in the pouches, I usually cut them out. Why do some think it is a good idea? Seems to really limit what can be put in the pouch, and to interfere with insertion under adverse conditions.

I cut them out of my GI AR pouches and M14 type pouches. On one of my AK pouches, the divider seems useful if there is only one mag, because it keeps the mag from flopping (so does the velcroe flap, for that matter) but also has enough extra material to fold against the back and not use it.

P.D.
11-07-2010, 08:49 AM
... rifle magazine pouchs - I would position them further to the rear.
I would put the pistol magazine double pouch to the left front. - It is flatter and will hinder the prone position less.

But you have belt space to position everything further to the rear IMHO, which makes for a more comfortable 'package' overall, - particularly in prone.

Even just walking, pouches to the front will rub on the front of our thighs on a hike, - particularly going uphill.

Generally though, I really like your set up.
Simple. - Similar to what I have used in the past.

Regards,
Anthony.

I'll second that.

immerfrei
11-07-2010, 03:21 PM
Big pistols are great but if we have a rifle as a primary; shouldn't we carry the smallest pistol we can to save weight for other more used items? I have gone from a Glock 23 down to a Glock 26 for that reason. One ten round mag plus 2 15 round back up mags. You can also use a bianchi small flapped holster which frees up real estate on the belt.

I will post my rig when I finished modifying my Tactical Taylor X Harness...which is the most comfortable harness I have ever worn. I am making the back straps vertical versus the 45 degree they are now.

AmericanWarrior
11-07-2010, 04:11 PM
11681

Modified my FLC a little to better work as a machine gunners rig… From L to R … Large Tactical Tailor (TT) pouch will be used as an ammo pouch, TT admin pouch, Leathermen muilt-tool, army issue IFAK (improved first aid kit) and another TT ammo pouch.. Trying to keep the ammo at the hips and the front open so I can lay in the prone for prolonged periods with a little more ease I can carry about 400 rounds of linked 7.62 and my AG & AB will carry the rest of the crews load. What other rigs have worked well for a 240 gunner??

colson
11-07-2010, 04:22 PM
What other rigs have worked well for a 240 gunner??

Know what we M-60 gunners had in 1983?

NOTHING!

Carried the ammo in those cotton 100 round bandoleers with the carboard box in them. I think some guys might have carried a teaser belt in a canteen carrier.

Stay safe. Keep pumping out those 6-9 round bursts.

gunplumber
11-08-2010, 06:42 AM
I used demolition bags. Normally holding blocks of TNT & Det cord, they held 240 rounds S-rolled. Had another 220 S-rolled in the ammo can, with the carboard and the crappy cotton straps discarded, strapped to the top flap of my ruck. And a 20-30 round starter. My AG had 2 cans and the tripod. My Ammo bearer? What ammo bearer? Sure I was supposed to have one but somehow weapons squad always lost their mules to the line squads. So the 1200 rd basic load went to just two of us. I started as a SAW gunner before "graduating" to weapons squad, and that was before there was any effective means of carrying the drums. We'd cut pieces of MRE cardboard to try to keep the ammo from clunkity cklunking inside the plastic drum. Those new zipper pouches for the SAW are a great idea.

And one of the most stupid things that I ever experienced in my military service - Saw gunners and M60 gunners still had to carry 2 M16 mag pouches on the front of the LBE for "uniformity". You can die a horrible death because you were ill-equipped, and that's ok as long as you LOOK UNIFORM! I carried pogie bate in one and my combo tool, oil, etc in the other. Could also get about 50? rounds S-rolled into one. One of the nice things coming out of the last 20 years and several combat actions is tyhe abandonment of the "everyone has to look the same" concept. Yeah, I understand that critical equipment should be located in the same place in each person's ruck so it can be found quickly, but a 60 gunner doesn't have M16 mags so having m16 mag pouches "uniform" is stupid. That it was instead of some more effective system for carrying M60 ammo, is almost criminally stupid.


Now, I'm really having trouble finding a good way of carrying (and storing) belted 7.62x54. The rims make it harder. I can only fit about 180 rounds in a GI can, but they come in 50 round non-disintegrating sections. I've tried top make zipper pouches like blackheart copied from the SAW. It is a great idea but I don't see theirs as worth $250. My sewing machine isn't heavy enough and the tactical nylon guy I hired to make them couldn't meet my production timeline.

I also prototyped mag pouches for the 45 rd AK74 mags, but again, I couldn't find anyone to actually make them. Lots of talk, but when it came to meeting promised production deadlines, it was one Epic Fail after another.

Here is the original Russian RPK-74 "apron" (worn low) and my molle version (I Like the full flap like on the Blackhawk! chest rig).

http://www.arizonaresponsesystems.com/wp/rpk74pouch00.jpg


http://www.arizonaresponsesystems.com/wp/magpouch04.jpg

Invisible_Man
11-08-2010, 11:42 AM
Very interesting pouches there Mark.

I like the 45 rd mags but always wondered how the hell I'm supposed to carry them on my gear.

pilgrim
11-08-2010, 03:22 PM
Here is what I'm currently using for an LBE. I don't care for the way I have the suspenders attached so I'm going to have a some attachment points sewn in; the holster is normally a 6004, but I have this on to try out. I'm not sold on it; I prefer Dale's work.

Can't see any picture?

pilgrim
11-08-2010, 08:13 PM
Hey Don, while I got you here ( and any other AF guys).

That set up you have certainly looks like it would handle Florida weather superbly.

My son is just starting SF Tech School, I'm talking to him right now, and they are issuing SF guys the GCS H-GEAR Rifleman's Kit shown here ...

http://www.gcswarrior.com/AF_HGear_p/af%20hgear.htm

He just sent me some pics and it looks EXACTLY like what I'm looking for! Can't post pics as they are copywrited, will have to go to the site to see them.

I can live with the ABU color as sage works well in Georgia.

Size small/med. will go up to 36"on the waist, so I will gamble on this one, as large/ ex. large will most likely be too long in the back for my girlish figure. My son has the small/med and says he has it cinched in as tight as it will go for his 30" waist.

It's treated for Near Infrared spectral Reflectance (NIR).

It's got Foliage 504 coloring used on webbing, shoulder straps, and waist panels.

Got a mesh back panel.

The M4 mag pouches come with flaps.

Old school canteen pouches available.

I'm pretty pumped about this! I will no doubt have one under the tree for myself next month!

WIG19
11-09-2010, 07:35 AM
Re: Early Dark Ages Patrol LBE

This might not be relevant; but back at the dawn of time the following improvised rig worked pretty well for dismounted patrolling:

1. An issue pistol belt

2/ Six canteen covers (old 1956 style)

3. The two canteen covers on the non-firing (NF) side each had a fieldd dressing on the botton and four 20-round mags on top (placed upside down rounds facing out) with gutted 550 (para) cord on bottom of each mag as a pull loop.

4, Two canteen covers on firing side (FS) held frags and WP grenades with paper tape on spoons.

5. Two canteen covers on back with actual canteens in them! The canteen were connected to belt with 550 cord. The NF canteen cover also had a canteen cup with electrical tape on lips and aluminum foil at bottom of cover.

6. On the front NF side of the yoke or harness was taped a strobe and pen gun flare kit.

&. The FS of the harness was left slick so the butt of the CAR-15 could be proeprly mounted in the pocket of the FS shoulder.

7. On the back of the yoke where it met high on the back a can of blood expander was taped.

If the guy was too skinny for 6 canteen covers then he carried his frags in a "fag bag", a claymore bag, with the strap over the NF shoulder and the bag at pistol belt level on his FS.

If the patrol intended to break contact with gas ("CS") then the mask was carried on a claymore bag on the NF side.

As little as humanly possible was carried on the front of the body so the solider could prone out as flat as possible.

If a pistol (Often silenced large frame High Standard .22) was carried it was either placed in a tankers holster or on the jungle fatigues pants belt.

All other gear was either on the body, in the jungle fatigues or in and on the jungle ruck (Claymores were secured to top of ruck by sewing claymore bag to ruck flap.

God bless

Richard W ComerfordThank you Richard for that piece of history, not pretty in terms of marketing but worked well for many. I've seen that, and read descriptions that were almost sufficient to put the description together. You have summed it up nicely in terms of what was actually run.

I have a couple of approaches these days. An OST Insurgent chest rig works very well for the terrain I wander in; key has been resisting common temptation to overload it & make it something it's not. But underneath that first is a pistol belt that has on it a small pouch with a couple of Hungarian 20-rd mags, a canteen (used as such) on the opposite side along with FAK. G19 in a modified tanker is on body also before rig goes on; very comfy, just another layer, but these first 2 layers are there should the rig & pack get shucked. Chest rig riding just above belt level is pretty much just 3-4 AK mags, knife, drop bag; couple small pouches are there as well for whatever (GPS, extra pressure bandage, trailmix). Marsupial has a map/compass, red tinted penlight; will be working on that to ditch the velcro and do something else for that particular closure, my only squawk on the whole rig.

Insurgent works nicely with a small-moderate load in back; unpadded straps let padded pack straps go on & ride better with amenities, commo gear, etc. The pack & rig can be shucked if needed and there's still a FAK, some water, pistol and 40-rds for the rifle if needed. Absent that, I'd probably go with your medieval approach using some nylon VN gear (not using medieval as a perjorative since I are one).

Concur with some previous observations on MALICE clips, some are ok, 70% less so. Hardly go thru a gunshow anymore w/o snagging a handful of true ALICE clips. Couple of shows attended by a particular vendor will likely show up nearby again this winter; the VN-era approach could be put together for very little $$ and allows load-carrying as well. Cooler in the summer, although I don't run the Insurgent so high like many full-vest types.

Mossyrock: Yessir, the gettin' old sucks but it ain't for pansies & you're obviously still pushing it. Probably more than a few "medieval" folks hereabouts.

Richard W Comerford
11-09-2010, 05:33 PM
Re: Pockets

Back in the Dark Ages pockets were important for load carring. The old jungle fatigues had a good number. They were well placed and strong. They could carry an enormous amount of gear. They could also be supplemented by suing an empty bandaleer of 5.55 x 45 on the inside bottom of the jungle fatigue shirt. This rode well when stuffed with gear.

A soldier could easily function for 24-hours just with what was in his pockets. Also there was a lot less gear to carry in those days. (What is the difference between a Dark Age grunt and a modern Spec Ops warrior? The Dark Age grunt carried 100 lbs of heavy, low tech gear. The modern Spec Ops warrior carries 100 lbs of light, hi-tech gear...plus another 50-lbs in batteries to operate it.)

Most patrols had an SOP for pockets. For example as a minimum the following items were covered:

Pants

Non firing side ("NF") cargo: Map with cord, civilian orienteering compass with cord, heavy plastic navigation board with luminous tape on one side and azimuth and distance on other side in grease pencil with cord

Firing Side ("FS") cargo: socks in water proof ("wp"), gloves, foot powder, tourniquet and C Ration can with meat.

NF pants: air panel, pace count cord

FS pants: signal mirror with cord

NF Hip: field dressing and hard candy

FS hip: field dressing and hard candy

neck: Silent ID tags with chain and morphine stick

belt: Demo knife (large knives were not carried unless there was a PAO around). A small frame revolver. (Small frame pistols were not too reliable back then.)

Jacket:

NF hip: candle, matches, heat tabs and tinder in wp bag

FS hip: e&e kit in wp cigarette pack container. bullion cubes in wp bag. Small flash light with extra batteries and tape over lens.

NF breast: lensatic compass with cord, whistle with cord

FS breast: Note book with mechanical pencil (pens and pencils usually failed), protractors and grease markers in wp bag

If it got cold at night a navy watch cap was added. The wool hat, even when soaked, kept you remarkably warm.

God bless

Richard W Comerford

pilgrim
11-09-2010, 08:07 PM
I've never seen it or used it. Virtually all of my web gear is Eagle and Tactical Tailor. The one I posted above is an Eagle belt, pistol mag pouches, and VOK, ITW rifle mag pouches, Blackhawk H harness and a Peter's holster.

Well, it looks like Garrett Container is selling/providing the GCS H-Gear Harness to AF Security Forces only!!!

Diamondback Tactical was supposed to be come out with a commercial version... but I don't see it on their site.

How well are those Fast Mag holders working? I might like one for belt use instead of a kydex pouch.

emsmiller
11-09-2010, 11:38 PM
Hey Pilgrim! Check out the other site which is gcswarrior.com not the main Garrett Container site. You can order the gear and so forth. It is approx. $100+ with shipping. Just bought one for a family friend's son who is in the Air Force SF. Will try to get some hands on comments from him as well if possible. Looks like a nice piece of gear to me!

And it looks like Diamondback did bring it out. Check out their H harness deal. It looks just like it to me. But then again I could be wrong about that.

pilgrim
11-10-2010, 05:39 PM
Ahhh very good! Thank's Gary. Then I'm back in business. This set up looks perfect for what I'm interested in, a blend of old school LBE with the benefit of modern pouch design, attachment options, stability under dynamic movement, and
comfort.

I'm interested in the fit of the small/medium sized harness also, as just about every single thing I try has to be adjusted down as small as it will go to fit properly.

I like the pouch design and prices also. Prices are similar to what the Condor stuff sells for.

I saw the Diamondback unit, looks very heavy duty, but seems too bulky for me, here in the rural south I need breath-ability to my kit.

Thanks again for the help, I was reading from a 09 tactical gear 'Industry Insider' magazine that said sales would only be to AF SF members.

emsmiller
11-10-2010, 11:41 PM
Hey Pilgrim! Glad I could be of help. To me, being from the South(SE TX), breathability is a good consideration but you can make adjustments as well. Don't forget that with regular H gear, you can adjust like crazy if you are creative. I know of guys who use 550 cord to let the belt down lower and if needed higher, they just cinch up the cord tighter. I was reading an Osprey book about the ANZACs in Vietnam and there was a lot of customization of pouches and gear by the SAS and others in Vietnam. They would use actual cloth belt loops that held the ammo pouches lower and then the other pouches were setup differently. Wish I could figure out a way to post the pics of the gear/soldiers/color slide paintings. As far as the Diamondback gear, I am just not sure but it looks like the same thing. As soon as my friend's son get the gear I hope to get a review. Oh, btw, the Diamondback version is way more expensive by about $50-60 when you factor in shipping.

Abednego
11-23-2010, 02:39 AM
Hey all, since I am new at this, I was hoping someone could elaborate further on the levels of gear. So normally if I don't expect direct confrontation, I don't need armor? And can carry gear in the belt with harness, and for long hauls bring a rucksack? But If I expect high danger areas I should wear the armor? Since I plan to save up for the US Palm plate carrier, I would set it up as more sustained gunfight, yes? Thanks! I love all the different ideas you have posted, as someone who knows nothing, I really appreciate it. :)

Ryan Acuff
11-23-2010, 05:19 AM
1st line gear:
What you would have on you all the time. For most this might be your concealed handgun/thigh rig/flap holster, mags, knife, flashlight, etc. If running rural ops gear/tactical LBE or whatever you want to call it, the same stuff, but on a padded MOLLE belt or duty belt with the addition of carrying a few rifle mags and a dump pouch.

2nd line gear:
Direct action ancillary gear. This depends on the mission of course. This could be a Sneaky Bag if running covertly-ish, a chest rig, tac. vest, plate carrier/armor system, or even a fishing type vest like the 5.11 style. This is the gear that if need be, could be ditched and you would still get by with what you had on your 1st line. Typically, a lot more rifle mags, IFAK (improved first aid kit), general purpose pouches for batteries, protein bars, and other personal gear. Hydration bladder usually falls in this line as well.

3rd Line Gear:
Usually some type of ruck sack. This would be long term survival stuff not related to direct fighting. Rain gear, ghillie suit, extra clothes, food, etc.
Ammo on stripper clips or bandoleered.

This is just a guide as there is no one right way. It depends on what you are setting up for specifically. Some people like a padded belt system that carries all their 1st and 2nd line gear and some like a plate carrier or chest to carry everything. There are pros and cons to any way. Personally, I prefer a multi-layered approach to load bearing gear.

emsmiller
11-23-2010, 05:31 AM
Levels of gear are usually described as 1st level/line , 2nd level/line, 3rd level/line and 4th level/line.

1st: This is your every day carry (edc)gear that is always on you. It can consist of different things depending on mission or your needs. For example, do you carry a wilderness survival kit while in Austin, TX? Or while you are in the Big Thicket National Forest? Mission/terrain determines the edc gear.

2nd: This is your primary gear for the mission. When I was working SAR, my 2nd line gear was an EMT vest that carried various gear along with medical supplies and survival supplies. It even carried a weapon in the form of a .38 revolver in a shoulder holster as needed. Now if you were carrying a rifle like a AK, you would either need a vest, chest rig, h-harness or bags to carry the ammunition and other gear. Again it is mission/terrain dependent. Don't fall for the latest or the High Speed Low Drag (hsld) gear if it really does not meet your needs. You can find the latest gear and etc. out there easily and lots of them are used by Tier 1 units but it don't mean that it will fit your needs. Tailor the gear to your needs not the needs of a Navy SEAL or what not. Also consider the environment you are in. If you go out in public with a full blown loadout and it is not needed, you will get some attention. But if you happen to live in a settlement in the West Bank with a verifiable threat, then the vest with 12 mags, 4 grenades, a pistol and a CAR-15 may make sense. Tailor it to your needs.

3rd: Generally speaking, it is the gear in your pack or bag that is needed for the mission. An example would be your computer bag/backpack. Or your ruck that holds all of the gear while hiking the Bitteroot mountain range out west. You get the idea. This is stuff you need but cannot carry on your body. Again, fit the mission/needs.

4th: This can be your cache, extra bag, car, or other stuff that will come with you as needed. An example is the gear on the bike that you are riding out in the woods. Or the gear needed to be carried by the team like stretchers and so forth. Or the ambulance. The patrol vehicle and so forth. Again, tailor it to your needs/mission.

In each of these levels/line, tailor it to your needs. I wear a hearing aid and need batteries for the hearing aid and a case to hold the hearing aid. I can put them in my 3rd line(like it it now), 4th line, 2nd line and 1st line as needed depending on the mission. That is just one example. Carrying a concealed pistol is another example. Or the cell phone is my 1st line gear but my gmrs radios are either 3rd or 4th depending on need and can be placed on my 2nd and/or 1st as needed.

Hopefully that will help you understand the concepts.

Jezcruzen
11-27-2010, 09:35 AM
Back in the day, I was a squid wearing dungarees, not web gear. However, I have spent a lifetime hunting, hiking, backpacking, spent 33 years in public safety, and worked at educating myself on how best to shoot someone's ass off without having my own shot off.

Now at age 59, I don't think I will have the need to hump a 70# ruck and full combat load up and down the Blue Ridge where I live, but I do see the possible need to gear up a bit to man an OP, run short-range patrols or a sniper's hide as the civilized world (yuck, yuck!) we live in continues to slide into the abyss.

I am 5'8", pushing 200 lbs. with a 44" chest and 34" waist... so I'm already a bit top heavy. I also believe strongly in utilizing a method of layering the necessities, not only so I can possibly ditch some stuff if needed, but also so I can add or detract depending upon expected mission demands. I like the idea of going "fast and light", and so does my aging body.

I have a Rhodesian chest rig holding four FAL mags should I choose to take out the old Imbel. Coupled with that is an equipment belt with a drop-leg holster w/mag carrier for the Glock, and a RAT5 fixed-blade containing a sharpening steel and an emergency fire starter. A small ruck can also be worn easily if not comfortably.

I also have a TT MAV w/yoke. Currently it carries two 3-mag "shingles" on front. These shingles hold the M4 30-rd mags securely without movement or rattle. Its real advantage is that the shingles are only as thick as the mags, and are therefore not nearly as uncomfortable going prone as other pouches. The MAV is also outfitted with a TT dump pouch on the left side. A double pistol mag pouch is molle attached to the right suspender, and a HEST fixed-blade is attached to the molle webbing on the left. The yoke provides additional molle connections on the rear, making it easy to attach a hydration system if not also using a day pack or ruck.

I like the minimalist approach. So does my lower back and knees. I can also change out mag pouches should I decide to tote an AK over the M4gery. I'll post some pics when I have time. Enjoy the thread, btw. Great info. from people who know.

Doug in CO
12-01-2010, 01:52 PM
Post it. I am actually experimenting with an LBE belt lately. I like to do alot of running around on foot in the AZ back country and I gotta say a chest rig is not optimal for this. Jury is still out.

After tinkering around a bit, I think the answer to your issue of a light weight kit while running is cargo shorts. You can throw a small first aid kit and a rifle magazine or two in your pockets, while keeping a pistol on your belt if you want it. Pockets are really the first line of carrying gear.

After this, I like the MOLLE belts like the one you mentioned and Blackhawk's. But, for people that want to work with a hybrid of ALICE and MOLLE I think it would be worth looking at Blackhawk's belt inserts:

http://www.lapolicegear.com/blackhawk-tactical-strike-modular-belt-panels.html

You can pass almost any type of belt through them (include ALICE pistol belts) and use them to carry MOLLE gear. They are cheap, come in different colors, reverse to allow carrying MOLLE stuff sideways if you need that for some reason, and come in sizes as small as 6" so you have a lot of flexibility in configuring a belt. After playing with some open top AR mag pouches, I don't they they are a good idea for a belt. They work OK on your chest because you don't graze your arm past them every time you take a step. But, on the sides of your belt they will tend to scrape up your arms. I think the simple nylon flap type works better there.

Greg Nichols
03-13-2011, 07:55 PM
139031390413905 the Gear Line 2 and 3 and worn

Greg Nichols
03-13-2011, 07:59 PM
13906 a few more angles

Cato Germanus
03-15-2011, 07:36 PM
Can you give a rookie the brand / type of gear you're wearing?

That rig looks squared away! Interesting use of a secondary holster on the LBV.

jamgusmc
03-15-2011, 07:46 PM
Geez fuzzy.. next time rotate those pics.. I feel like my cat when he gives me the head canted WTF look... :biglaugh:

civilgORe
03-28-2011, 01:44 PM
Suited with a US PALM Chest rig this is great for a day or possible longer if need be

http://i350.photobucket.com/albums/q409/civilgore/P3230522.jpg

http://i350.photobucket.com/albums/q409/civilgore/P3230524.jpg

gunplumber
03-28-2011, 02:05 PM
I just did 3 days carrying 13 7.62x51 mags (either FAL or SCAR). The first two days I used a Condor Molle vest and 6 2-mag Eagle pouches. Weight distribution was excellent. Prone was not comfortable. The mag pouches were pricy and I was not pleased. The clasps were very hard to release with any speed. Also, trying to draw the handgun would hit the underside of the mag pouch. So I went back to a drop leg. Was using a standard GI Bianchi UM-84 full-flap. I also started with a dump pouch, but ended up taking it off and just using my cargo pocket. I just didn't like it flapping around on my thigh.

So day three I went old school with ALICE suspenders and belt and GI type M14 pouches. Problem was there wasn't enough room on the belt for 6 pouches unless I ditched both the k-bar on my left side and the pistol on my right. I ended up adding one on either side of my butpack, which worked ok but they flopped a bit too much. It felt heavier since it was all suspended from my shoulders and not around my chest, but going prone was much more comfortable since I could unbuckle and flop them to the sides.

My buddy went "light" with 6 open top condor pouches and nothing else. He was training with 2 recently broken ribs so distribution was important. He liked it. I am thinking or replacing at least one of my full-flap pouches with an open top. I think open top are poor for heavy dirt and sand and mud, but for a speed reload, they are great.

I'll probably re-arrange my kit a dozen more times trying to find the "best" and having half ALICE and half MOLLE isn't helping. But it is coming along.

Greg Nichols
03-28-2011, 04:13 PM
Well sorry bout the pics being sideways. this guy ain't techno savy

The secondary holster isn't really secondary these shots are a progression of sorts and an a work in progress but it's finally been shaken out some the pouches are a mix of Voodoo tactical, Black Hawk,5.11 and Tactical Tailor.

The vest is Condor plate carrier with large E-SAPI plates front and back, the 3 different holsters on the rig are a SERPA that has since been relegated to the unused box as well as the Safariland thigh rig and the Bianchi is now on my "Light and fast" LBV (no armor) I've had a custom quick detach Kydex holster made by a buddy with friction retention like the one at OST I can pull it from the vest quickly if I ditch the plates and move it to the belt

The Double Thigh rig has changed to all belt wear with a roll away dump pouch from 5.11 but retain the redundant mag pouches

I have the largest water bladder from Camelback in the rear pouch as wall as a nalgene bottle on the belt. Trauma kit is in the but pack with other odds and ends 550 cord, 100mph tape, chem lights large and small, Land Nav equipment, multi tool.

on the vest is a next gen K-Bar and under the but pack is a Cold Steel Tanto blade. the suspenders are from M65 Field pants and help distribute the load but aren't uncomfortable under the weight of the vest

The weight is distributed well so It isn't cumbersome, I did a 3.1 mile run with that gear and 65lb ruck on a 105* day in about 28 mins. (more of a Ranger Shuffle than a run)

the belt alone is what I would use for Gabe's purpose of light travel but thought I'd include it all (not counting the soft armor and entry vest or the issue LBV with no armor) old school I know. but wanted to show you the full battle rattle for your viewing pleasure

AK47Geno
04-08-2011, 02:54 PM
14537

Spec-ops Falcon chest rig, 7 internal mag pouches, 3 5.56mm shingles from Shellback, 1 large GP pouch for "FISHING" (Fighting in someone's house) 1 small GP pouch for NVD's, MBITR pouch, Standard issue IFAK (added, Fag-Rag, scissors, wax pen) 100oz Camel-bak bladder in the hydro pouch attached to the chest rig.

Sorry the picture is kinda huge

Kolt
04-08-2011, 03:36 PM
14537

Spec-ops Falcon chest rig, 7 internal mag pouches, 3 5.56mm shingles from Shellback, 1 large GP pouch for "FISHING" (Fighting in someone's house) 1 small GP pouch for NVD's, MBITR pouch, Standard issue IFAK (added, Fag-Rag, scissors, wax pen) 100oz Camel-bak bladder in the hydro pouch attached to the chest rig.

Sorry the picture is kinda huge

What part of all that 'high speed' gear helps you to keep your muzzle out of the dirt?

chad newton
04-08-2011, 05:25 PM
Probably better then handing to the next generation hadji.

Pokeguyjai
04-08-2011, 05:37 PM
Wow guys chill out...

Muzzles sometimes end up in dirt, just how it is. A condom, some duct tape (lightly pressed on), or a muzzle cap for the ARs with A2 flash hiders work well. And also why a big flash hider like a phantom or the FSC can be a good thing.

Anthony
04-08-2011, 07:46 PM
14537

Spec-ops Falcon chest rig, 7 internal mag pouches, 3 5.56mm shingles from Shellback, 1 large GP pouch for "FISHING" (Fighting in someone's house) 1 small GP pouch for NVD's, MBITR pouch, Standard issue IFAK (added, Fag-Rag, scissors, wax pen) 100oz Camel-bak bladder in the hydro pouch attached to the chest rig.

Sorry the picture is kinda hugeI see a muzzle on a hard baked road!
No big deal!

Great photo! - Really.

I 'interacted' with kids in Iraq.
We 'kicked around' a soccer ball at times!

And when I said that I was from Brazil..........."oh, - do you know Ronaldo....etc?"
I actually knew Ronaldo's father!
We used to drink together in the suberb of 'Vargem Grande'!
Two stupid 'drunks' perhaps?

Regards,
Anthony.

Anthony
04-08-2011, 07:49 PM
BTW!:

I LOVE that photo!

Regards,
Anthony.

Anthony
04-08-2011, 08:25 PM
I can remember a shooting in Crossmaglen in 1980.

The 4 man team on the ground, - receiving 'incoming', herded the children into a store to get them out of danger!

I was watching from a fixed position of our camp. - A 'sanger'.
I had a GPMG, but I had no enemy to shoot at!

The children were crying and screaming, but my buddies did their best to calm them, and more importantly, - get them to safety!

Regards,
Anthony.

3corners
04-09-2011, 07:34 AM
This thread take me back a bit to my army years :smile: so my thoughts...
we used to work with 3 layers: Body, Belt, Bergen (Rucksack)
My setup was roughly this;
Body - Map, Compass, folding Knife (swiss army type), field dressing (or compact trauma kit), survival kit - (fire lighting, water puri-tabs, non-lube condoms(for carrying water), scalpel blade, snares, salt) para cord, emergency foil blanket, a couple of energy bars, pocket torch.
Belt - a roll pin belt with a H type harness, 2 mag pouches, 2 waterbottles - one with metal mug, 2 utility pouches which held med kit, hexe cooker, rations for 24hrs, spare socks, knife, (either an M3 trench knife or MOD Survival knife) loopline and carabiner (note; we used to also have to carry Respirator (gas-mask) and NBC Kit (jkt+trs) which was a further 2 pouches and I had a 28" waist in those days :smile:)
Bergen - apart from patrol kit - sleeping bag, bivi bag, roll mat, poncho, water, cooker + fuel, rations, spare/warm clothing, possibly river crossing kit, extra field dressings, hygiene articles (usually wet-wipes, toothbrush)

A small pair of binos could also be carried on the body.

The belt set up should keep the pouches from the 3 - 9 oclock position as far as possible, pouches can be sewn together for extra stability, the belt shoúld be kept fairly tight but not restrictive. Test by jumping up and down, and sprinting a short distance it shouldnt bounce or flap around uncomfortably, be too noisy or restrict movement.

If you have a bergen with detachable side pouches you can set it up as an additional level of gear.

Above all test it, spend some days out in the field hiking with your gear, keep your belt gear on for a 24hr stretch, then adjust as required.

crushgrip
04-09-2011, 08:54 AM
Great Picture there Bro. I'm not sure why some donkey would bash a Soldier but I definitely thank you for your service. I'm not sure where else you could of put your weapon and have it ready for war. If you have never had your rifle muzzle by the dirt then you probably never been in the dirt. By the way I have the same chest rig in multi and love it. I was curious if you run it with a full H2o bladder and a pack or ruck and how does that fill? Thanks again for keeping America safe Sir.

tweek
04-09-2011, 10:05 AM
I'm still putting my gear together. Next weekend should be interesting....I'll post pictures in a bit.

However, I have a question: while getting pieces of my kit together (belt and y harness) I wanted a buttpack but didnt like what I could find. I found this: Deployment Bag (http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/MOLLE706-1.html). It's actually pretty nice, offering 2 side pouches, 1 large main pouch and then a smaller long pouch. So....what should I put in there? A small booboo kit, some sun screen and a cleaning kit seemed obvious. Is there anything else? Some kibble maybe? Then fill the rest up with ammo? I'm setting up two belts - one for the SCAR and one for the M4. I only have enough pouches for 6 SCAR mags. So ammo would obviously be nice.

B/c of the freaking shopping mall of pouches on my belt there is no room for a holster so I had to get a dropleg holster (using a crap UTG for now and will get a better one once I know what I'm doing). Now I'm wondering if getting a dropleg platform might be a good idea. What I like about the belt approach versus the chest rig is that I can still throw on a chest rig. I'll probably be wearing my camelback most of the time, but my bug out bag will also fit over the belt w/o any trouble. So like the other more experienced people have already said: I can shed layers.

Another question: Alice clips seem a bit dodgy to me. Some of my gear has them, but I always tape it and then zip tie to backup the alice clip. I've actually resorted to just ziptiing stuff. I realize that makes the inevitable rearrangements a bit more difficult, but cutting a zip tie isnt a big deal. Zip ties also don't accidently pop open and then let your pouch fall off. So what I'm getting around to asking: How do you secure your pouches to your gear so that you are confident it won't fall off?

DonSmithnotTMD
04-09-2011, 06:56 PM
Zip ties or gutted 550 cord.

tweek
04-09-2011, 08:06 PM
Getting stuff together for next weekend's class (according to my calendar I'm taking a negotiation skills class) and it seems to be good to go. Just for grins I stepped on a scale. I'm 218lbs right now. With SCAR gear: 301.8 and M4 gear: 298.7. No water and I'm not wearing any shoes either, just jeans, an undershirt and a camo shirt. My hat is off to our servicemen that lug this crap around all day. I might last the morning but I'd need a nap before moving on in the afternoon.

falightfighter
04-10-2011, 07:00 AM
Getting stuff together for next weekend's class (according to my calendar I'm taking a negotiation skills class) and it seems to be good to go. Just for grins I stepped on a scale. I'm 218lbs right now. With SCAR gear: 301.8 and M4 gear: 298.7. No water and I'm not wearing any shoes either, just jeans, an undershirt and a camo shirt. My hat is off to our servicemen that lug this crap around all day. I might last the morning but I'd need a nap before moving on in the afternoon.

If you aren't wearing armor, you have too much stuff. Your fighting load should be limited to about 35-45 lbs.

john1969
04-11-2011, 05:05 AM
I would like to start working on some LBE type gear. Good info here! Thanks!!