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Guantes
04-20-2005, 01:45 PM
You are on the way home from work about 11pm and decide to stop for a soda at the Gas-n-GO. It is the typical small square building with aisles of racks and shelves with snacks, etc. The check out spot is in the middle of the room with a 360d counter except for an opening at the rear for the clerk to enter and leave. The female clerk is mopping the floor next to the counter. You are down an aisle with a view straight at the register, about 20' from the counter. Suddenly two people with ski masks run in. One grabs the clerk and puts a large knife to her throat while the other jumps the counter and tries to open the register. He cannot get the register open, so the one holding the clerk forces the her behind the counter to open it, with the knife still at her throat. Then they spot you and the one holding the clerk says, "Hey, m****r f****r, if you don't interfere, maybe we won't kill the b***h and you".
You are equipped as usual.

What do you do?

Treyarch
04-20-2005, 01:58 PM
If I was an observant person, my gun would have been drawn and hidden behind a bag of cheese things.

If possible, obscure myself behing an isle or something. Consealment at least, cover if possible.

I'd say "Yo, its cool. I aint going to get involved in this s-it. Cut the chick for all I care, I'm gone..." then shoot the one I have a clear shot on, and inform the other guy that he isnt going to live if she doesn't, but if he wants to run now he can, but the chick stays, no matter what.

If I have a shot, take it while I'm talking to him. If I don't and he releases the chick, let him go, but if he makes a hostile move toward me, shoot him to the ground.

I don't need to ask him to surrender. This is self defense of a 3rd party and I know all I need to know to cover my rear in the aftermath.

Hopefuly, I'd have seen them come in, drawn my gun and as soon as the robbery started with one of them grabbing the chick, shoot the guy with the hostage from behind, then the other guy with no conversation, ploys or demand for surrender, but that isn't the way you wrote it.

Guantes
04-21-2005, 08:18 PM
This is another one of those situations that can turn into a "bag of s**t" in a heartbeat but, those are the kind that do come up. Any way you go it is fraught with potential problems.

memnoch,
If I am understanding your response correctly, I have a couple of questions, just for my own edification. I am not trying to be critical, just to understand where you are coming from.
What if the shot you have is at the perp w/o the knife that has shown no weapon. He has a barrier b/t you and him, as far as him attacking you. Are you going to shoot him? How would you justify it?
In your later comment, shooting the one with the hostage from behind, what about over penetration and hitting the hostage?

Sbs,
I agree with much of your response, with a couple exceptions/additions.
The two main concerns are her and my safety, tertiary that they don't have the opportunity to do this to some other person/female and maybe kill/rape them.

Draw and approach while getting ready for a head shot and advising, "If she gets cut I will kill both of you, but you can leave with the money if you leave her behind the counter." (This is one of those situations where attitude, command voice and your death face come into play. Difficult to explain but, they must be totally convinced of your sincerity.)
Have her open the drawer and give them the money. Like you I have closed the distance to 10-12' from the counter. As soon as they come around the counter yell, "Freeze!". Any movement whatsoever will be interpreted as movement toward me or the clerk with the intent to assault me or her and will get them both shot multiple times.
Pron'em out and have her call 911 telling her what to say re me, my gun and the perps.

I would not fault anyone who let them go but I would not. I would feel just as bad if they escaped and killed someone on their next job as if they killed this victim.

Fair.....no. Did I lie.....yes. Would I feel bad.....NO. Screw'em, they are violent criminals and "this ain't checkers". If I may digress as is sometimes allowed for us older members of society. I recall and incident where a liquor store robber was shot by police while in the act of robbing a liquor store on the first of April. He took the stand to complain of his treatment. His statement was, "He didn't say stop, hands up or anything like that". "All he said was, 'April fools m****r f****r', then he shot me, that ain't fair". It did not affect the outcome.

DO......NOT...... let your sense of fair play or other emotions/guidelines that are present when dealing with good people enter into your dealings with violent criminals/rogues/terrorists who would do you or others harm, it could cost you dearly. End of lecture.

dhopp
04-21-2005, 08:38 PM
Agreed--

If you don't stop them someone else will have to and more innocents may suffer/die--

Safegaurd the cashier first and if they try anything- shoot them and send them oneway to H*ll.

Guantes
04-21-2005, 09:48 PM
Agreed, not all but many.
They would have their lives.
What's wrong with both. We are essentially both doing the same thing until we shoot. If mine doesn't work I use yours.

Guantes
04-21-2005, 10:07 PM
Thank you.
OH, you were lying. LOL
The incidents you mention, now that's bad caca.

TravisABQ
04-21-2005, 10:09 PM
Draw down on BG #1, blither blather... blither blather....
talk him to death, while he has knife at throat of girl, and ignore BG #2?

Don't like it.

Here's a notion, since bad guy #2 is NOT behind the counter,
and is presumably closer to me, I shoot him, as he is a
greater threat to me.

While BG # 1 is gawking and freaking out, I do him with a head shot.

Immediate defense of Life.

Legally defensible, I think.

--Travis--

Guantes
04-21-2005, 10:11 PM
I believe BG#2 was behind the counter.

TravisABQ
04-21-2005, 10:16 PM
ah I just re read that....

Still, I suspect BG #1 will expose more head if he is freaked by his partners getting shot.

Gotta shoot em both anyway.

--Travis--

Guantes
04-21-2005, 10:18 PM
Whatever works for you.
Think BG#2 might be a problem (legally) with no weapon?

TravisABQ
04-21-2005, 10:28 PM
He is a co conspirator in an armed robbery, and possible
murder.... just because I do not see a weapon does not
mean he does not have one.

This is already a disparity of force issue. Two men against
a girl, or two against me....

Means,
Opportunity,
Manifest intent,
Preclusion to escape

Add one knife and a threat of imminent murder,
I'll put that before a Grand Jury here any day.

NJ or PRK? Well, I don't go to places like that.

--Travis--

Guantes
04-21-2005, 10:34 PM
I'll buy it. Especially if he happen to be holding the arm of the girl, thereby assisting the one with the knife.

TravisABQ
04-21-2005, 11:19 PM
I remember from one of Gabe's books, that talking
knocks the heck out of your shooting accuracy.

Sounded logical to me.

Maybe offering the BGs a chance to escape will put them to flight. Maybe.... But I'm thinking that giving 2 bad guys
any time to think, gives them time to underestimate my resolve and overestimate their chances of "winning", while
giving a nice "screw you" stab to the girl, to give me something heinous to deal with while they run off.

I'm just thinking that a verbal challenge may well be a
thing that they are used to, and given what I have seen of
thug behavior, challenge, counter-challenge, escalation,
etc is very much in the OODA loop of thugs doing this kind
of crime.

I can't think of anything more likely to shatter a bad guy's
OODA loop like shooting his partner.

--Travis--

georgel
04-22-2005, 06:43 AM
My first move, since I don't have immediate contact, look outside for who's driving or anyone else that might get at my 6.

Al Lipscomb
04-22-2005, 10:42 AM
As soon as I register the ski-masks I get the cell phone out and hit 911. That is my first priority as I may need help. If they see me fast enough I might keep it away from my face and hope it picks up what I am saying. I might even put it on the shelf so my hands are empty.

The clerk is in danger but I don't want to force their hand. The "unarmed" BG could have a suprise for me if I am not careful. If I can move to a position of partial concealment I will. This is a situation where I would consider going to a covert ready position.

I am going to draw a mental line. In my mind both of the bad guys are fair targets. My guess is that there are at least three of them, these two and a driver. If any firearms come out I shoot. If additional blades come out I shoot. If they start to harm the clerk I shoot. If one starts to approach me I shoot.

RMF
04-22-2005, 11:08 AM
Guantes,
I have a question. You questioned whether you could justify shooting #2 first. Then later said you would stop them both from leaving and prone them out. I don't disagree but I have always wondered. If you order them to freeze and go prone - if they don't and just walk out - how would you justify shooting. What do you do?

Guantes
04-22-2005, 11:38 AM
RMF,

As I have mentioned befor I try not to let tactical actions diminish strategic goals. Not always possible but I try.
Tactically, take out the bad guys. Strategically, try not to get charged/convicted for my actions.

In answer to your questions, I believe several factors would come into play. With the BG behind the counter not doing anything I wonder if justification would be difficult, unless you could show he was in active participation of the threat to the clerk. I believe even holding her hand or something similar would be sufficient.

In regards to their leaving, that is a question of how I position myself. Done properly I could justify that they were headed for me, not the door.

None of it perfect, just trying to tip the odds in my favor.

RMF
04-22-2005, 12:06 PM
Thanks, I always asked myself the question of how to justify. Was hoping you had a magic answer.

Al Lipscomb
04-22-2005, 12:24 PM
Thanks, I always asked myself the question of how to justify. Was hoping you had a magic answer.

In my state (Florida) I have two people involved in a forcible felony (armed robbery and maybe kidnapping). Both become valid targets at that time.

J Marwood
04-22-2005, 12:49 PM
As soon as I register the ski-masks I get the cell phone out and hit 911.

One thing you may find useful is to use the number 112. On GSM Nokia and Ericcsson phones (and AFAIK all Symbian devices) this can be dialled without disengaging the phone lock.

112 is the international number for emergency services included in the GSM spec.

DaveJames
04-22-2005, 12:54 PM
Guantes, I'm begining to think you have access to my 201 jacket :eek: awfull lot of senerios to close for comfort ;)

Point_Man
04-22-2005, 01:15 PM
It's easy to tighten our focus on the immediate problem (two BGs in the store).

I think it's noteworthy that we had a fair number of posts before someone mentioned looking for a driver, lookout or other BG involved in this (reasonable to at least glance for, if not expect in all cases).

I think these tactical scenarios, many of which Guantes authors, are one of the most valuable parts of the WT board, since they exercise the most valuable lifesaving skill of all - thinking.

Guantes
04-22-2005, 01:43 PM
DJ,
If we are traveling the same road, we all pass the same places sooner or later.

Guantes
04-22-2005, 01:46 PM
PM,
Thank you,
I have been told by many people and read it by others that the more situations you can place yourself in the less you will be surprised when one comes along. Vicarious involvement is in my opinion one of the best training aids available and.........its free.

Al Lipscomb
04-23-2005, 06:36 PM
I think we can all agree that the more you use a skill the easier it is too access the skill under stress. While this is often applied to physical skills, I think there is a good deal of carry over into mental skills as well.

Today as I was in a "Gas-n-Go" this thread came to mind as I remembered that if something started to look out for a driver.

j_conway
04-23-2005, 08:09 PM
agreed, first thing is get the police on the phone, same time picking up an expedient improvised weapon. even if I'm in the snacks aisle, anything that I can throw as distraction is better than nothing.
I'd have to take the BG2 down hard and fast - from behind if possible. Hopefully aided by a solid object, maybe a soda bottle, otherwise I'm thinking throat and eyes, but hey, I'm always thinking throat and eyes.
So now BG1. Not fun, but on the up side, he's seen my resolve and brutality. There's not a lot I can do directly about the girl's safety, BG & I both know it. I'm going to promise him that I'm going to chase him down and <insert unspeakable act> him if he hurts the girl, that he can run with the money if he goes now, that police are already on the way. And I'm going to advance - slowly - to maybe 6-7 feet away, leaving the door out of there unblocked. The choice now is his, but he's on the other side of the counter so the path of least resistance is to run rather than go at me. If he does cut the girl, there's nothing I can do, but I figure I have to make cutting her the less attractive of his options - let him know that murderers with witnesses and incapacitated partners always get caught.
On the positive side, I also know that over here robberies involving fatalities are very very rare - the roll of the dice suggests that the girl is going to walk away from this.

battleground
04-24-2005, 11:53 PM
One thing to remember in real life is that banks, stop-and-robs, and many other places you frequent have security cameras. (Rememer the pizza parlor beating tape we discussed in another thread?) Whatever you do there will be played back by the DA in her office many times while she gets to play armchair quarterback. And then you may find yourself explaining your version of the tape to the jury. You may even find a thread on WT. :D

While we may not like it, we will have to justify anything we do to the bad guy against what the tape shows. You don't want to "let" the bad guys go after they decide to take the money and leave the clerk? Does your jurisdiction allow you to shoot the perps as they flee? I'm more than willing to let the cops search through mug shots to match the fuzzy faces on the tapes. It is better than trying to convince the DA that the unarmed creep needed to be shot. I'm more than happy to save the clerk's life and not face the consequences of pulling the trigger.

I agree with the offer to let them leave, but not as a lie to buy time. If they look down my barrel and decide that running away to live and rob another day is the better choice, I'm willing not to shoot.

RMF
04-25-2005, 11:48 AM
running away to live and rob another day is the better choice, I'm willing not to shoot.

Just pray it isn't Your loved one they chose next time!

battleground
04-25-2005, 10:38 PM
If they hurt the clerk I will act. If they refuse to release the clerk I will act. If they retreat, I will not commit an act that will get me prosecuted for murder.

Kobra
04-25-2005, 11:20 PM
Jumpin' in here late, and I haven't read the other posts.

1) Draw my gun and let them see it.

2) Point it right at the nose of the fella with the knife to the chicks throat.

3) Give them two options:
-Cut the chick and I kill them both
-Leave the chick and the money alone and get the Hell out of the store.

Kobra

Now I'll go back and educate myself.

TravisABQ
04-26-2005, 12:04 AM
If they hurt the clerk I will act. If
they refuse to release the clerk I will act. If they retreat,
I will not commit an act that will get me prosecuted for
murder.

Has this scenario progressed to this point, and you still
think you have a chance of avoiding shooting somebody?

IF they hurt the clerk?!

Exactly how long will it take the guy with the knife at
the throat of the girl to cut her throat?

If you wait for him to act, he'll be done before
you can take aim.

If you already have taken aim for a head shot,
WHAT ARE YOU WAITING FOR?

If two guys holding a knife to a girl's throat is not considered
legitimate provocation for a justifiable shooting, then
there is really no "IF" to contemplate here.

After he cuts the girl's throat, and the bad guys turn to
leave, no longer threatening you... you are back at stage
one which is, NOT THREATENING YOU. You still gonna
shoot somebody? If your locale will prosecute you for
trying to preempt the girl's murder, they'd probably
prosecute you for a "revenge killing".

But don't watch the girl get her throat slashed and then
tell me that ONLY NOW you have justification to act.

There is a risk no matter what you do or don't do.

--Travis--

Treyarch
04-26-2005, 07:15 AM
This is another one of those situations that can turn into a "bag of s**t" in a heartbeat but, those are the kind that do come up. Any way you go it is fraught with potential problems.

memnoch,
If I am understanding your response correctly, I have a couple of questions, just for my own edification. I am not trying to be critical, just to understand where you are coming from.

What if the shot you have is at the perp w/o the knife that has shown no weapon. He has a barrier b/t you and him, as far as him attacking you. Are you going to shoot him? How would you justify it?

In your later comment, shooting the one with the hostage from behind, what about over penetration and hitting the hostage?
.

I'd justify it along the lines of stopping what looked like an attempted kidnap of a young woman by 2 armed men.

I heard them talking about something, but I was about 20 feet away but I saw they were holding a knife on the chick and saying something about "getting her" and I wasn't going to let those guys out of the store with the chick.

I mean...that would be wrong...

I said something to the guy after I shot the one I had a clear shot on, I was just BSing till I got a shot on him, then I took it.

I read it as she was infront of BG#1, not the other way around.

If BG#1, the knife man, was in front of her, he gets the first round through the back or the head, no warnings because he is a clear and present danger to her and I am not required to play fairly, just reasonably.

Shooting a man in the back as he and a pal hold a chick at knife-point is "reasonable"

Guantes
04-26-2005, 07:43 AM
memnoch,

Ok, I'll go along with shooting the unarmed one re kidnapping, might be a little thin, but ok.

Re the back shoot, I was referring to your comment near the end of your post, if you saw it coming down. I wasn't questioning reasonablness, just the possibility of a pass through if you shot while he was moving her around the counter and had his back to you with her in front of him. You didn't mention it as a head shot or from a low angle.

battleground
04-26-2005, 10:01 AM
Back up to what I first said guys. If I command them to release the clerk and leave, and they comply, then I have nothing else to do. The clerk is rescued, and that is all I care about. Then the police can sort it out.

If they don't comply, then they loose.

What I'm reacting to is those who are NOT police officers who think they are going to prone the actors out (after the actors release the clerk), and if the actors don't comply they will shoot. Given that these places are taped, I don't want to be charged with murder. And I'm not going to shoot if the situation is deescalating.

How do you justify to police and DA shooting fleeing suspects who released the hostage and were not threatining anyone? As important as any shooting is the legal situation you land yourself in afterwards. While it is worth it sometimes (e.g., they do not release the clerk) it is not worth it other times (e.g., they release the clerk and flee).