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scoremax
08-16-2010, 11:02 AM
Perhaps a silly question, but since I dont own a RDS Pistol, IŽll ask instead of having to try it out myself..

Why does RDS-Equipped pistol shooters bother to extend their arms?

ShouldŽnt the RDS minimize the usual benefits of extension, and instead a closer grip, with a folding forward handle, like a shoulder weapon (minus the stock), make you stronger/steadier, and also make pick up of the dot faster ??

No smart commentarys on having the slide poke your eye please..

What am I missing?

charley103
08-16-2010, 11:45 AM
Maybe it's not silly. It would increase your field of view through the lens and might minimize the problem of dot acquisition. It might have some benefits for retention and for working close cover or unorthodox positions. Seyfried used to shoot with such a close-coupled stance that it looked like the slide would bump his nose. Maybe we'll see the dot sights develop some techniques of their own. If there's a flaw it will be quickly revealed when people start experimenting.

Gabriel Suarez
08-16-2010, 11:54 AM
So what we are talking about is basically does a compressed shooting position, similar to a tight weaver, benefit you over the extended arms position currently used?

My answer would be no it does not.

Red Ryder
08-16-2010, 11:58 AM
I instantly thought of Seyfried as well.

Other thoughts:
1. it's how most of us were trained, and muscle memory is tough to break. It is harder to consistently hit a bent arm position than locking the firing side elbow the same every time

2. recoil management and, in the case of Glocks, avoiding limp- wristing

3. in combat, most people instinctively thrust weapon toward the target

4. since the dot doesn't come into its' own until beyond point shooting ranges, it may be fine for a closer eye-relief making the precision shot or longer range shot.

Interesting discussion...anxious to hear Roger Phillips thoughts as he is the guru on reality shooting scenarios on the move...

Gabriel Suarez
08-16-2010, 12:04 PM
I will add that there are times to shoot one handed, and times to shoot two handed and a wise shootist knows the time. At a class recently, Terrorist Interdiction, the goal was run up on a terrorist target, ostensibly with non-involved parties all around, and shoot said target in the head repeatedly as you closed in.

Lots of guys tried to do this one handed relating about interference from the body on the gun and how it was less one handed ect, ect.

I disagreed and said it was all in context. One guy against one guy, shooting on the move, wanting body shots - oh yeah....point shoot one handed all the way...on the run. Try that on a partial head shot where missing is not an option, and "no" it will not do as well.

There is nothing that a Seyfried stance will do that arms extended will not do eminently better. Do not try to shoot a pistol like it was an SMG. It has no stock, nor a foregrip, and trying to do so will not translate well anymore than shooting an UZI like it was a Glock.

scoremax
08-16-2010, 12:19 PM
The gun in my thoughts would have a front grip..

I can easily understand that a fast moving shooter can be better of with just "point n shot", IŽm just curious if the short distance from the compressed stance to the eye would make for improvements..?

Perhaps only on stationary targets/stationary shooters, then?

Gabriel Suarez
08-16-2010, 12:29 PM
The gun in my thoughts would have a front grip..

Which would make it an AOW NFA weapon requiring a federal license like an SBR, and which would make it exceedingly difficult to holster.

Might as well go with an SMG;)

scoremax
08-16-2010, 12:35 PM
Naw.
I live in Europe.

I canŽt have a SMG for any reason, but I can add almost everything to a pistol.
Almost the exact opposite to your conditions..
Hence my curiosity..:dope:

HamburgO
08-16-2010, 03:55 PM
Naw.
I live in Europe.

I canŽt have a SMG for any reason, but I can add almost everything to a pistol.
Almost the exact opposite to your conditions..
Hence my curiosity..:dope:

...and now mine is piqued! Where in Europe can you a) legally have a pistol, and b) put anything you want on it? I know it ain't Germany, because they won't even allow an RDS (or lasers, or any other "electronic targeting aids"). C'mon, let us know, I might move there :)!!!

Regarding compressed vs. extended: Gun xtension will depend on distance from target and angle of movement off the X. From close-up, 3 mtrs. or so, of course you'll be more compressed, but as distance increases so does extension. Although I have found that, of course, if I'm in a high CAR position while busting off to 5 o'clock from 3yds. the red-dot will pop into in my field of vision, but at that point and distance, I'm not even really using it to aim. For me, actually aiming with the RDS starts at maybe 7yds. or so, at which point, the pistol will generally be held at full extension.

scoremax
08-17-2010, 12:20 AM
...and now mine is piqued! Where in Europe can you a) legally have a pistol, and b) put anything you want on it? I know it ain't Germany, because they won't even allow an RDS (or lasers, or any other "electronic targeting aids"). C'mon, let us know, I might move there :)!!!


Actually, You dont want to move here, I live in Sweden, which have more stringent gunlaws than germany (in ceartin ways), In sweden pistols are a "25 meters precision shooting only"-thing in the eyes of the general population (Yes we got Dynamic shooting and such also, but this is seldom talked about, Sweden has for instance just started to allow AR-15 type of Weapons for IPSC competition (last year)..)

This "Innocent" way of wiewing guns means that theres a lot of loopholes in the law, simply because these things never actually been tried or been subject to investigation..

I can buy a FSSG without registration, but I cant mount it on the gun.
I can buy and mount a stock on a pistol, but I canŽt compete with it due to "associational-regulations" (sorry for my bad english), but itŽs ok with the law..

I can legally own armour piercing handgun cartridges, but I cant tecnically be in possession of a single cartridge if iI dont have a licensed weapon of corresponding caliber...

I can mount a supressor on certain calibers and weapon types, but not on others..

And so forth..and forth...
Is this answer to your question/insinuation??







Regarding compressed vs. extended: Gun xtension will depend on distance from target and angle of movement off the X. From close-up, 3 mtrs. or so, of course you'll be more compressed, but as distance increases so does extension. Although I have found that, of course, if I'm in a high CAR position while busting off to 5 o'clock from 3yds. the red-dot will pop into in my field of vision, but at that point and distance, I'm not even really using it to aim. For me, actually aiming with the RDS starts at maybe 7yds. or so, at which point, the pistol will generally be held at full extension.

Alright.
I always wondered about this since the IPSC-crowd have been extending their arms despite having Opticals..

If one cannot own a RDS in Germany, how come you have it?? (nevermind, looks like you live in AZ)

Thank you everyone for answering my questions.

Jack-O
08-17-2010, 08:28 AM
with a red dot, the sight radius is measured from your eye to the dot, thus the farther out the dot, the longer the sight radius. the longer the sight radius, the more potential accuracy.

the downside of a longer sight radius with a red dot is that it is much more sensitive to proper positioning and thus slower to pick up.

so, you can see that it's a give and take thing, if more accuracy is needed then longer sight radius, if faster speed is needed then compressing into the sight would be better.

That is the way I understand it at least.:)