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Tegnerfan
04-19-2005, 05:59 PM
Is it just me or do others here have trouble with the Pivot kick.I have done roundhouse kicks by the thousands over the years, but this kick just feels plain awkward to me.Anyone else have this problem?

All-in fighting
04-19-2005, 06:06 PM
it is done like a soccer kick to the otherside of your body--if you do not hit, you go thru--ralph

V42
04-19-2005, 06:16 PM
I personally don't like the O'Neil pivot kick because I feel that it overextends me and if I miss--God Help me!

James Sass
04-19-2005, 08:03 PM
I like the pivot kick - it is a serious powershot although I think it is limited to certain situations.

I had a videotape of Guatemalan "security forces" doing a street snatch in which 3-4 guys were trying to subdue a guy with an ongoing struggle - one lands an almost textbook pivot kick to the guy's abdomen, STOPPING the show right there & then.

Its the only "high" kick that I've ever felt natural with from the get-go.

Skpotamus
04-19-2005, 10:47 PM
Wow, that technique in the picture was horrible. It looks like a basic TKD round kick, while leaning away with the hands down and doing.... somethign other than what they should be doing and that is protecting the face.

I'd say that anyone with a month in a thai gym or a few months of TKD or just about any karate school would throw a better kick than the one pictured there.

Mongoose
04-19-2005, 11:02 PM
I've never liked the pivot kick either, for many reasons already stated. Since I usually don't have steel toe boots on, I stay away from kicking with my toes.

Ted T.
04-20-2005, 08:11 AM
I don't believe the face is unprotected, it is protected by the lean away from the guy.

Note that this is a pre-emptive kick, perhaps even attacking an unaware opponent, so a lot of the worries about getting grabbed or hit are moot.

I assume that the lean down is to facilitate a more powerful impact (Isn't this the famed 'pig killing kick'?) but I gotta admit, I'd rather sacrifice a bit of the power for a more upright position, with easier access for a follow-up move.

Bri Thai
04-20-2005, 08:18 AM
Yes, just what is the application of this kick? A pre emptive shot to someone stood side by side with you?

Coops
04-20-2005, 12:06 PM
Wow, that technique in the picture was horrible. It looks like a basic TKD round kick, while leaning away with the hands down and doing.... somethign other than what they should be doing and that is protecting the face.

I'd say that anyone with a month in a thai gym or a few months of TKD or just about any karate school would throw a better kick than the one pictured there.

TKD and Thai are both sports. It is important that we don't mix the two up. An erect spine and raised hands is caused by not wanting your opponent to score points on you. Real fighting necessitates overbalancing as a basic tactic. Until people understand that simple factor, they will never understand combatives.

If the kick failed, the kicker would attack from where he was, that's life.

Coops

Skpotamus
04-20-2005, 12:53 PM
Muay Thai is a combat "sport" where the goal is to knock your opponent out. The principles of hitting and not getting hit do not change with the venue, only the rules that inhibit the people in the fight, and some of the tools that are available to you.

You are thinking of Olympic style TKD that goes for fast, light hitting points. Muay Thai goes for KO's, The two are totally different, and thinking they are the same becasue they are both typically fought in a somewhat controlled environment is an error. Also, thinking that Muay Thai is not a useful style to learn because it's not called "combatives" is a foolish mistake to make.

Putting someone in combat boots and calling it "combatives" does not change the basic principles of a fight. If you do somethign that doesn't work and puts you in a bad position (like the one shown in that picture), it doesn't matter what venue you are fighting in, be it a ring, a cage, or a trash filled alley, the result will be the same, you're going to get hit, hard, and possibly taken down so you are on the receiving end of a schoolyard style whoopin.

"Points" have a place in Muay Thai if no knockout occurs, but the judging criteria follows the damage done to your opponent, not necessarily the amount of shots you land.

BTW, since when does stopping a strike from hitting you only belong in a ring venue? Are you saying that stopping a shot from hitting you in the nose has no place in "combatives"? Always thinking that you will be on the delivering end of the strikes you practice is not realistic in the slightest.

Over balancing yourself to launch an attack that isn't as powerful as one that keeps you balanced and protected is just plain stupid. Why would you throw yourself to the ground to fire a one handed shot from your pistol when you could stay behind cover and throw a more controlled shot that has a better chance of hitting your opponent and leaves you in a position where incoming fire is easier to avoid?

The number one knock out in Thai boxing is from just this type of attack, throwing a kick with your hands down and thinkig that the lean will protect you. In truth, you are more open to a counter attack and since your hands aren't even up to help deflect or stop some of that attack, you're going to get hit, and hard. the typical formula for this KO is someone throwing a kick, the other person throwin g a punch and knocking the opponent flat. The punch can even be thrown to the chest, with you standing on one foot, and already leaning that far, it doesn't take much to push you over.

What is the application for this kick? A surprise attack for someone standing next to you? I got news for you, if you initiate a physical attack on someone like that, YOU become teh bad guy and will go to jail unless you got a lot of $$$ and a VERY good lawyer.

edited to add: I apologize if this post sounds hostile, that is not the intent, it's just annoying when I hear people putting down a training method or style because it doesn't fit into their neat little world of TMA ideologies.

Go out and find techniques and theories that work and leave the labels to the Dojo Bunnies that want to talk about training and what works best. That kicking technique shown in the picture is NOT the best method of delivering a kick. In fact, it's one of the worst I've seen in that you are relying on the kick to put your opponent out, while giving yourself no way to defend, or quickly counterattack if it fails.

Muay Thai is tested again and again against trained opponents, same thing for MMA. To think that they don't have anything to offer because the military didn't deem it fit to teach in their 6 week camps doesn't mean that it's not valid.

RES
04-20-2005, 01:07 PM
You are thinking of Olympic style TKD that goes for fast, light hitting points.

Out of fairness, I must make a correction: Olympic rules for TKD require a "shuddering blow" be delivered, in order to score. The rules define shuddering blow as "substantial movement in the direction of impact, loss of balance, contact with the floor (other than the feet), or obvious display of pain or injury".

You're thinking of non-Olympic TKD.

Mongoose
04-20-2005, 01:08 PM
Also, thinking that Muay Thai is not a useful style to learn because it's not called "combatives" is a foolish mistake to make.

Putting someone in combat boots and calling it "combatives" does not change the basic principles of a fight. If you do somethign that doesn't work and puts you in a bad position (like the one shown in that picture), it doesn't matter what venue you are fighting in, be it a ring, a cage, or a trash filled alley, the result will be the same, you're going to get hit, hard, and possibly taken down so you are on the receiving end of a schoolyard style whoopin.



Not only do I agree, thank you for my best laugh for today. :D

RES
04-20-2005, 01:12 PM
+1 Skpotamus and Mongoose

As far as the 'pivot kick' is concerned- assuming that the illustration posted by V42 isn't an exaggeration, then I can't imagine why there's even a discussion of its usefulness- it wouldn't take too many attempts, before those practicing it discovered that they couldn't maintain their balance.

This looks to me, to be an excellent way to land on one's face.

Jason74
04-20-2005, 01:19 PM
I do not like the pivot kick as shown in the example above. I dont like the hands down position, dont like the over extention, and it looks like it would be easily avoided against a knowing opponent. In my opinion.

J

James Sass
04-20-2005, 02:22 PM
This kick makes more sense when it is demonstrated properly. I think its on Carl Cestari's 2nd tape.

It is a fast simple and powerful kick, not stilted and choppy as implied by the photo sequence.

Like anything else - if you don't like it don't use it.

All-in fighting
04-20-2005, 04:35 PM
earlier versions of the o'neill manuals show the method more correctly--ralph

Skpotamus
04-20-2005, 09:17 PM
If someone could post a pic or description of the kick as it is supposed to be delivered, then I think it would be a lot more helpful. That picture is bad technique IMO. I would love to hear/see the proper tech.

RES, I did some Olympic TKD, and the "trembling shock" was VERY subjective (read not what they described at all). I competed in a few of those tournies, as well as my AMAA tournies when I was in my teens, and the judges scored on a "did it make any contact whatsoever" criteria. I lost to an opponent in an Olympic match that "landed" some kicks that I didn't even register. They grazed my gi, and were counted for "makign contact". One of them hit my upraised arm (a good block in my opinion as it hit nothign else but my forearm, and they counted it for moving my arm.

The AMAA tournies I entered DID require the trembling shock or "oh! Ugh!" context. You had to be hit hard enough to stagger, or cry out for a point to land.

Looking back, I seem to remember Herb Perez breaking a guys arm with his spinnign hook kick, as well as some KO's in olympic trials.

So I guess I should have said "The olympic TKD tournies I've had experience with", although you are right, some non TKD tournies do go with the "light touch" crap. That's why I prefer Muay Thai, boxing and MMA. No matter what show it is you are fighting in, or what org, the contact is as hard as you can make it.

ShanghaiJay
04-21-2005, 07:18 AM
To execute the kick from the right guard position pivot sharply to the right on the right foot, at the same time drawing the lower portion of the left leg up until it is in approximately the same horizontal plane as the left knee. The Kick is delivered through a horizontal plane to your opponent’s groin. The striking surface is the toe of the boot.

It is important that the foot be withdrawn quickly to prevent your opponent from catching your foot. After kicking from the right guard position recover to the left guard position. During the entire movement the hands are held rigidly in front of the groin region for protection and balance. If your foot is caught lunge forward and place all the weight on that foot. Follow through with the finger jab to the eyes.

ShanghaiJay
04-21-2005, 07:33 AM
Keep in mind this kick is not done in a vacume.

In fact almost all Chinese methods from many different styles the hands attack first before any kicking takes place. In the O'Neill method this usually means a finger poke to the eyes.

Also putting the hands low by the groin is a common method in many Chinese systems.

Are the low hands that much different then Tegnar's clasp hands? Tegnar Fan? Ralph?

Jay

Tegnerfan
04-21-2005, 10:57 AM
I feel that the hand placement for the pivot kick is for the same reason Tegner and the others did the clasped hand kick-for balance purposes.However Ralph may know more about this one.

Skpotamus
04-21-2005, 12:05 PM
Thank you for the better description, that sounds identical to teh Tae Kwon Do round kick tuaght when I was a kid. (still use it from time to time too)

The hands being low is what bothers me. I don't care what the technique is you're throwing, your hands should be up and ready to defend. The whole "If done right, no can defend" mentality lost its weight with me after my first sparring session with a real fighter. I foudn out that no matter how perfect I threw something, there was always an opening for a counter attack, especially if the other guy blocked or moved.


If a waist height kick throws you off balance too much, I think stretching and practice are what is needed. Either that, or don't kick.

Was this kick intended to only be thrown as a "sucker shot"? Or did they recommend it be used during a physical encounter that had already started?

All-in fighting
04-21-2005, 02:52 PM
gents, it is a chinese gung-fu method, shantung or shandung black tiger--the hands are held to protect the groin---ralph

jukado1
04-21-2005, 09:47 PM
2 Points to help with this kick, 1st. the first movement is to push off with the kicking foot, DON'T just cock the foot and try to pivot from a dead start, push off to get your hips spinning, 2nd. everybody will have their favorite hand position, in this picture, with the body low, the counter you should be most worried about would be a groin kick, But if the body is more erect, standing up straight, your leg will be covering the groin, but your face could be countered, so you should have your hands up.

V42
04-21-2005, 10:04 PM
A few important factors:

This pivot kick is a sort of a combination of thai kick and roundhouse kick in that it has the body torque and drive through of a thai kick.

This kick is generally not thown as an opening move as much as a followup to a lead hand fingerjab to the eyes. Even if the lead hand fingerjab to the eyes does not connect, it serves to get the target's attention up high.

The kicker's hands are in the position to protect his groin, while he is somewhat crouched over to make his head a harder target to hit.

The kick typically targets the groin/bladder area.

Coops
04-22-2005, 12:29 AM
Muay Thai is a combat "sport" where the goal is to knock your opponent out. The principles of hitting and not getting hit do not change with the venue, only the rules that inhibit the people in the fight, and some of the tools that are available to you.

You are thinking of Olympic style TKD that goes for fast, light hitting points. Muay Thai goes for KO's, The two are totally different, and thinking they are the same becasue they are both typically fought in a somewhat controlled environment is an error. Also, thinking that Muay Thai is not a useful style to learn because it's not called "combatives" is a foolish mistake to make.

Muay Thai is tested again and again against trained opponents, same thing for MMA. To think that they don't have anything to offer because the military didn't deem it fit to teach in their 6 week camps doesn't mean that it's not valid.

I agree MT is devastating. So it TKD and karate and judo and boxing etc. All the shots in all those arts could finish a person. However, the technique shown is taught within the sphere of 'combatives' and that's the only difference. Any technique taught within that arena is as valid, but the simple point to remember is that combatives comes with its set of rules, just as all the arts/sports do. It's just that the rules are different. I know of, just like we all do, people who have made their art, or part of the art, work in a SD moment. But it was used under different rules to when it was taught.

The difference in rules is simply that in SD you should be first and that means hitting prior to the bell sounding for the start of the round. All sporting arts wait until the round starts, then hit and defend - which is why the more upright torso and chin tucked in stance is useful.

Don't think I have a down on MT or any other art/sport. I certainly do not. Also, a point on the 'balanced' stance v overbalancing: in a brutal and viscious fight, the first thing to go is balance, regardless of how much people spar in their training. That's because the opponent isn't playing by your rules. He's gone primal and doesn't care about stance and distance.And when you are adrenalised it's hard to maintain balance and perform slick technique. We tend to try and put to much power into the shots, thus overbalancing.

The kick illustrated was best used by one of my team in a room entry. As we entered the darkened room with muzzle lights on, he entered behind us, invisible to the BG, ran round us and planted the kick straight across the BGs calves. He hit so hard that the BG went horizontal prior to hitting the ground. Maybe it's uses are more applicable in that arena than SD:~)

Of course, this doesn't happen every time. But people would be amazed how much it does happen. Please don't think I would consider casting a slur at any art. My observation came from only my experience in the game.

Coops

Skpotamus
04-22-2005, 01:26 AM
Coops, thanks for the reply. There are a few things I don't agree with in your post.

If balance is the first thing to go when you are fighting, then you need more preparation adn training. During my first Thai match, and my first MMA fight, I kept over extending and overbalancing. The result was a long night for me (had it been an uncontrolled environment, I might have been killed). After more training and preparation, I was able to keep myself balanced while using power shots, power defenses, and was able to fight up to my full ability.

I grew up a white kid in the middle of a poor white neighborhood that was surrounded by poor black neighborhoods. I grew up fighting. I had to walk through a horrible part of my little town to get to my jr high school, and then my high school until I got my car and could drive. I literally had to fight almost every single day, not always one on one, and not always with just bare hands. I've got the scars to prove it. I found that the more I trained, the better I was when the SHTF. The techniques were a godsend, but the ability to remain calm and collected and let my brain work instead of everythign else is what kept me from getting more lumps than I should've taken.

If you watch professional fighters, they are fighting against other highly trained athletes, not just a street bum (usually), or someone hopped up on something. They are fighting another smart, well trained opponent. They ahve to be better than the other guy to win. The main difference between the best fighters, and the average ones isn't the skill level of a particular technique, it's the ability to cognitively and unconscously use their techniques when they will work the best.

Keep a cool head and stay calm through use of your training and you can keep your balance and stay in teh fight.

Coops
04-22-2005, 02:30 AM
If you watch professional fighters, they are fighting against other highly trained athletes, not just a street bum (usually), or someone hopped up on something.

I agree with all you say Skpotamus, unfortunately SD has nothing to do with fighting in a ring. I accept that you ability and skill level is well above par. But what about the broad spectrum of folk.

You mentioned the first fights where you over extended. I would suggest that was due to fear at the time - fear brought on by not being comfortable in that arena, at that time. Eventually the fear decresed somewhat (not entirely though I bet :D ) That same fear magnified a thousand times is what people suffer from when subject of a mugging or store robbery.That is why things tend to go tits up during those incidents.

Your ability to maintain calmness under adversity is a result of repeated helpings of that adversity. Most people don't get that airing to violence.

Yet again, maybe a couple of forum members are fogetting that they excell in this arena due to training, life experience and a big interest in the subject. We must'nt forget that the vast majority out there haven't the same skill or interest. They are the people most at threat and they are the folk for which techniques like the kick at the start of this thread, as well as axe hands and chin jabs, were designed for.Efficient blows taught in a short time and aimed solely at one scenario, SD.

ipdta
04-22-2005, 03:30 AM
Yet again, maybe a couple of forum members are fogetting that they excell in this arena due to training, life experience and a big interest in the subject. We must'nt forget that the vast majority out there haven't the same skill or interest. They are the people most at threat and they are the folk for which techniques like the kick at the start of this thread, as well as axe hands and chin jabs, were designed for.Efficient blows taught in a short time and aimed solely at one scenario, SD.

Our goal should be to give the average person maximum skills in shortest possible time. The most of the LEO:s do not have time and interest to do all those different kinds of training. They maybe should but the life / facts are showing the true.
Yet we / instructors / still have the obligation to give them such a skills.

If the methods function for the average person without hours in training hall than those are based on instincts and will function under stress.

Slavo

RES
04-22-2005, 03:50 AM
The kick illustrated was best used by one of my team in a room entry.

Could you take some photos or a video of you (or someone else) performing this kick? Because, as illustrated, all I see is a "new and improved" way to fall on one's face.

Then again, if the kick is as shown, but with the torso more upright, it's a TKD "front turning" (aka "roundhouse") kick, applied low.

Coops
04-22-2005, 04:31 AM
A classic roundhouse kick uses the whole body, but most of the power and snap come from a sharp extention of the lower leg into the target, then a snap back. Basically, the power comes from flexion and extention of the quadriceps, then the hamstring muscles pull it back.

I magine your leg is set in plaster with a slight bend on it at the knee. You have to use your body to swing the fixed leg into and through the target. That way you are totally committed through the target with all your power and body weight.

It's not for the dojo or ring. It's simply a tool to fit a certain application. My illustration of attacking someone from out of the dark shows an application. The BG didn't have a chance because he didn't see it coming.

V42's illustration of the finger jab prior to the kick is essentially the same method - hit whilst he's not looking.

Coops

RES
04-22-2005, 04:48 AM
Coops-

I know how to do a roundhouse kick LOL.

What I'm asking is this: Are you saying that the kick is performed exactly as illustrated in V42's attached picture at the beginning of this thread, with the torso roughly parallel to the ground? Or, is it performed with the torso more upright? Could you provide a photograph or video of someone performing the kick, if it isn't precisely as shown?

Belisarius
04-22-2005, 06:43 AM
Re: Muay Thai. Combat sports develop what could be called "meta-technique"---this is similar to "meta-cognition", the ability to think about what you are thinking. Meta-technique goes by other names, but it is essentially the master technique of knowing how to use techniques in the midst of a dynamic, physically and psychologically taxing, violent struggle. You develop meta-technique through either getting in a lot of fights or simulating a lot of fights. Drills, bag work, one-steps, etc. will help you with isolated techniques, but not with the complex neural "problem-solving" arrangement that exists in the brain of a good fighter.

Belisarius
04-22-2005, 06:49 AM
Re: round kicks. I think the Thai round kick is the one roundhouse you want to use. I personally was taught to think of all Thai kicks as being modifications to a knee strike: punch the knee forward, snap out the lower leg as you turn the hip over (note: this is different from the "swing the shinbone in from the outside" that is taught in some Thai schools). Be on the ball of your non-kicking foot. Your knee should be at about a 90-degree angle when you make impact (as your elbow will be when you throw a hook or uppercut), then straighten as you bury the kick and push off back to your normal position.

In a CQB environment, you are adding the complication of a lot of gear plus the need to keep a solid shoulder-mount and muzzle discipline as you execute the kick. So in that realm you will see more lead-leg round kicks, shallow impacts, no switch-kicking, etc.

Whatever kick you choose to develop, keep your hands up and protect your head (!).

fish78
04-22-2005, 11:23 AM
It is said that while demonstrating this kick, O'Neill would routinely kill a pig...any kick delivering that much force is worth exploring.

Belisarius
04-22-2005, 11:27 AM
He was kicking pigs?

RES
04-22-2005, 11:29 AM
Anyone here ever see "Lonesome Dove"?

" 'ell, ah lahk t' keek a peeg ever'-now-n'-'en..."

todd_xxxx
04-22-2005, 11:31 AM
I've been working on my patented pig-kick for awhile now. I just find that it has very little carry over to kicking humans. Occasionally you will find a short fat human that has fallen and is crawling toward you with a threatening look on their face. In that situation, its ideal. I didn't know O'Neill shared my interest in pig-kicking though. Its nice to find people have common interests.

All-in fighting
04-22-2005, 11:43 AM
gents, the kick was taught to athletically gifted people---"the devil's brigade" it was taught thai style with the point of the boot and was a follow up to finger jabs to the eye--o'neill used the front kick" chinese whip kick" and side kick as well---his entire purpose was to get in close after that and finished you with elbows, knees and a rather nasty neck break--the method was called chi-chi shu---ralph

RES
04-22-2005, 11:55 AM
the method was called chi-chi shu

Which is sometimes (perhaps apocryphally) believed to be the origin of the Japanese word "Jujutsu".

All-in fighting
04-22-2005, 12:03 PM
yes, the similiarity in translation is obvious:)--ralph

RES
04-22-2005, 12:17 PM
True to a certain extent, Ralph, but here's where the "possibly apocryphal" part comes in- the terms "jutsu" and "jitsu", already had a literary meaning, before their application to the martial arts. They were analogous to the words "truth" and "fact", respectively, in English. The debate centers on whether "jutsu" ("the [factual] method of") or "jitsu" ("the truth of"), is correct. The appellation "art", is an addition which was made for American consumption, partially because of the MacArthur doctrine (forbidding the Japanese people to practice the "martial arts and sciences", after the surrender of Japan at the end of WW2).

This not only gives some pause as to the accuracy of the "chi chi shu" belief, it also is the defining characteristic of the debate as to whether "jutsu" or "jitsu" is the correct appellation for martial arts.

There are other factors which complicate the matter, such as Western mispronounciation; records being lost, altered, or unverifiable; differences in pronounciation from different regions of Japan and amongst different clans; differences in philosophies and training schemes; and so forth.

Tactical Grappler
04-22-2005, 12:57 PM
Okay, this is a little tangent here but needs to be cleared up:

Remember that kanji are symbolic, not sound based - though they can be used that way. In Chinese kanji (Hanzi) are monosyllabic. In Japanese, a single kanji can be pronounced with more than one syllable.

Chi chi shu (pinyin Jijishu ) is simply another term used generically in describing Chinese striking arts. They use it today in books talking about wildly different arts to convey the concept of "skilled striking."

Taken individually the characters mean "skilled" "striking" "art/skill/technique." The latter character, shu, is the Japanese "jutsu," as in jujutsu.


The "truth" and "fact" character ("shi" in Chinese, "jitsu" in Japanese) is an entirely different character. It is NOT used in either Chinese or Japanese arts appended to a root kanji to refer to a martial art. i.e. they don't write "Jujitsu" with the character for "truth" "real" or "fact." That would be non-sensical. Chi chi shu would be written chi chi shi and again, not make much sense.

Also the characters, and therefore the concept revealed in reading them, except for "shu" (jutsu), are completely different for "jijishu" and "jujutsu." Jijishu is written with three, not two. The Chinese for "jujutsu" is "roushu," and written with two kanji. The concept makes sense in Chinese, they just don't refer to a specific martial art with that character combination.

It is highly doubtful there is any connection between the two other than a chance similarity in sound and syllable. Neither has any connection with the shi/jitsu character.

And in both Chinese and Japanese the term "art" (yi/gei as in "wuyi" or "bugei") has LONG been used to refer to martial practices, well before the West got involved.

Difference in regional pronunciation and later Romanization are most responsible for the jitsu/jutsu difference. Remember the same kanji can be pronounced very differently depending on dialect, accent, etc. It does not change the meaning. Back in the day when referring to "jiu-jitsu" they were pronouncing the word for the very same kanji as "ju-jutsu."

RES-

Do you have a source for those statements re: chi chi shu and jitsu/jutsu?

All-in fighting
04-22-2005, 01:09 PM
o'neill who was aquainted with chinese and japanese fighting systems called this method chi-chi shu. i believe he studied his chinese martial arts in the shandong [spelling?] province . he indicated it was chinese foot fighting . how ever there are old books that have this title. i have seen them at my instructor's house [ carl] . o'neill was a godan in judo and very well versed in combatives as well as various styles of chinese boxing---this was where i got the term from as well--regards, ralph

Tactical Grappler
04-22-2005, 01:32 PM
Ralph-

Not surprised - again it would be a term commonly used to refer to striking methods and probably used by his teachers.

The Chinese have a number of terms for martial arts/fighting methods - quanfa (jpn., kenpo/kempo) and quanshu (jpn kenjutsu - but with the character for "fist" not "sword") and others.

Shandong/Shantung is correct - the difference is pinyin/Wade Giles romanization. The same difference gives us Daoism/Taoism, qi/ch'i and Tai ji quan/Tai chi ch'uan respectively.

All-in fighting
04-22-2005, 01:45 PM
i think the jiu jitsu was the japanese just not wanting to give credit to what they were saw and taught [ chi-chi shu], they never wanted to give credit to the chinese race for anything----i think a good example would be karate [originally was it chinese hand?] then if i remember my martial arts history it was CHANGED by japanese to empty hand !-----ralph

RES
04-22-2005, 01:49 PM
RES-

Do you have a source for those statements re: chi chi shu and jitsu/jutsu?

Actually, I was recalling it from a conversation I once had with Richard Strozzi-Heckler.

Here's an article wirtten by Brett Denison, which is close to what I was trying to say:

http://mizukan.org/ju_name.htm

"Jutsu vs. Jitsu

"Jitsu is a Kanji that is used as honesty, truth, or reality--such as “jitsu-wa” ("actually, in fact", "in reality", or "to tell the truth"). Jutsu is the Kanji used for technique, art, and or skill. The kanji for “ju” means gentle, soft, pliable, and is pronounced “Juu.”

"Thus Jujutsu means the “gentle art or technique” while Jujitsu means the “gentle truth” Technique or Method of Light.

"When one considers what Do means (way, journey); Jitsu is a very appropriate alternative to a Do when the skills taught and used are part of a Way rather than primarily for combative application. So, the use of Jitsu can be legitimate, provided that when the term is written using kanji, the correct kanji is used along with the correct interpretation--otherwise it just appears to be careless or nonsensical."

mwhaught
04-22-2005, 02:10 PM
I've been working on my patented pig-kick for awhile now. I just find that it has very little carry over to kicking humans. Occasionally you will find a short fat human that has fallen and is crawling toward you with a threatening look on their face. In that situation, its ideal. I didn't know O'Neill shared my interest in pig-kicking though. Its nice to find people have common interests.

To take this tangent a tad further...

I know that you are being sarcastic here. But if you ever come up against a PO'd boar hog with 6"-10" tusks, you'll wish you had a lot more than a pivot kick to rely on ;)

I almost shot a boar hog who decided to try to climb into my truck last summer after he got loose from his pen. The old boy was knocking my truck back an inch or two when he charged my front bumper.

Nice thing about moving back in the country was no gang bangers. But watch loose boar hogs eating on dead racoons in the road. They don't like being disturbed. :eek:

Mongoose
04-22-2005, 02:22 PM
To take this tangent a tad further...

I know that you are being sarcastic here. But if you ever come up against a PO'd boar hog with 6"-10" tusks, you'll wish you had a lot more than a pivot kick to rely on ;)


I prefer a kick from a .50 muzzleloader in that case... :D

Tactical Grappler
04-22-2005, 03:18 PM
i think the jiu jitsu was the japanese just not wanting to give credit to what they were saw and taught [ chi-chi shu], they never wanted to give credit to the chinese race for anything----i think a good example would be karate [originally was it chinese hand?] then if i remember my martial arts history it was CHANGED by japanese to empty hand !-----ralph

Okay - interesting thought but it doesn't make sense to use Chinese characters or concepts at all then, does it? The Japanese give a great deal of credit to the Chinese for many, many things. Jujutsu clearly had some Chinese influence- but it was not the sole genesis of Japanese martial art, or jujutsu, by any stretch.

I seriously doubt the chi chi shu/ju ju tsu (?) connection. Sounds good because it sounds similar, but if you know your kanji it makes no sense. Kinda reminds me of a famous judo practitioner writing an article for Black Belt in which he demonstrated his depth of knowledge by saying that Judo originally came from a Chinese martial art called tai jutsu.

They did change kara-te (tang shou- "Tand Hand" or "Chinese hand") to kara-te (kong shou - "Empty Hand") but IIRC reading Funakoshi this was a political move and by no means accepted by all.

Tactical Grappler
04-22-2005, 03:25 PM
Actually, I was recalling it from a conversation I once had with Richard Strozzi-Heckler.

Here's an article wirtten by Brett Denison, which is close to what I was trying to say:

http://mizukan.org/ju_name.htm

"Jutsu vs. Jitsu

"Jitsu is a Kanji that is used as honesty, truth, or reality--such as “jitsu-wa” ("actually, in fact", "in reality", or "to tell the truth"). Jutsu is the Kanji used for technique, art, and or skill. The kanji for “ju” means gentle, soft, pliable, and is pronounced “Juu.”

"Thus Jujutsu means the “gentle art or technique” while Jujitsu means the “gentle truth” Technique or Method of Light.

"When one considers what Do means (way, journey); Jitsu is a very appropriate alternative to a Do when the skills taught and used are part of a Way rather than primarily for combative application. So, the use of Jitsu can be legitimate, provided that when the term is written using kanji, the correct kanji is used along with the correct interpretation--otherwise it just appears to be careless or nonsensical."


Interesting - but is there any historical precedent for Mr. Denison's philosophical interpretation?

He seems to be saying that we can use Jitsu (truth) and jujitsu (or "Method of Light" !??) in place of Jutsu in Jujutsu (flexible/pliant method) but we have to write them with the correct kanji or it is nonsensical?

Don't quite know what he is saying but kinda get the gist. Sounds like he is waxing philosophical over what is in fact a simple Romanization issue - which even he addresses before going into his explanation. I'd like to know what traditional source this comes from, if at all.

RES
04-22-2005, 06:58 PM
Now you know the gist of the debate, TG!

I don't know offhand, but you can email him through his website (the link I provided), and ask him.

Skpotamus
04-22-2005, 10:23 PM
Coops, thanks for the reply again. I think that the training level and calmness that came with my trianing can be reproduced in a lot of environments. The use of situational drills and repeated training can develop the confidence in your techniques and ability to perform in a real situation. I think that anyone who is continuing their SD or MA training should strive to get better as they continue training.

Finding time isn't hard for someone that wants to. My martial arts instructor is the H2H tactics, pistol and shotgun instructor for our county. He's also the remington and GLock armorer in addition to his normal LEO duties. He still finds time to teach 3 classes a week, and train on his own. It's a matter of wanting to.

Settling for soemthing in your training is not the way to go IMHO. While the techniques taught in WW2 style combatives are very good ones and do work, they can be added to with techniques and skill sets that are harder to learn and take longer to develop. You have this time to develop these skills and techniques while you still have the WW2 combatives skillls to rely on while your new skills are being developed.

I don't know how long the typical boot camp is, but I do have friends in every branch of the service except the coast guard. All of them say the same thing, the H2H they learned is ok, but VERY basic. They supplement this training with more advanced and specific training, as the military does in their other disciplines. Why settle for a generic toolbox that is ok for a starter set, when you can tweak and add to your toolbox until it is perfect FOR YOU?

Mongoose
04-22-2005, 11:04 PM
Settling for soemthing in your training is not the way to go IMHO. While the techniques taught in WW2 style combatives are very good ones and do work, they can be added to with techniques and skill sets that are harder to learn and take longer to develop. You have this time to develop these skills and techniques while you still have the WW2 combatives skillls to rely on while your new skills are being developed.

I don't know how long the typical boot camp is, but I do have friends in every branch of the service except the coast guard. All of them say the same thing, the H2H they learned is ok, but VERY basic. They supplement this training with more advanced and specific training, as the military does in their other disciplines. Why settle for a generic toolbox that is ok for a starter set, when you can tweak and add to your toolbox until it is perfect FOR YOU?

Skpotamus,

Excellent, couldn't have said it better myself! :D

Tactical Grappler
04-23-2005, 06:36 AM
Now you know the gist of the debate, TG!

I don't know offhand, but you can email him through his website (the link I provided), and ask him.

My point is the gist of the debate is incorrect.

Jutsu (skill/method) and Jitsu (truth/fact) do not have the shared connotations or usage that you alluded to, which apparently came from Mr. Denison's philosophizing in his somewhat meandering piece.

If it is a personal point of view re: the terminology, and how a (in my opinion somewhat strained) analogy can be drawn to a "Gentle Truth" or "Method of Light," (still don't know where he got that one from) then no problem.

To cast it as a traditional viewpoint in line with classical teachings, which I thought you were doing, is incorrect.You cited Western misunderstandings, and it seems we have a perfect example here with chi chi shu/jujutsu/jujitsu.

Signing off now, I am sure this odd little tangent is boring the pig kickers to death!! :D

PM me with any further discussion.

RES
04-23-2005, 07:08 AM
My point is the gist of the debate is incorrect.

-snip-

PM me with any further discussion.

I would, except there isn't any 'discussion' available on this subject- you have purported to have "the precise answer". The entire reason there is a debate, is because all parties believe they have "the precise answer".

Personally, it's a debate I don't get into- I only cited the fact that it exists. Likewise, you'll note from my (voluminous) posts, that I use "jutsu", rather than "jitsu".

Yes, it's probably a good idea to get off of this tangent, before one of the aforementioned "pig kickers" decides to weigh in with the words "chop suey"!

Colonel B. Guano
04-24-2005, 04:37 PM
Howdy, I'm coming over from SDF, which has been short on educated discussion lately.

Plenty of educated comments here about the pivot kick, I hope mine falls into that category.

I've used the pivot kick in competition and in at least one real altercation. Before I discovered the joys of being choked, locked, thrown, etc., I put quite a lot of thought and practice into various methods of kicking. The illustration at the thread start is an example of how not to do it for sure.

As various posters have noted, the head down, leaning forward position compromises your ability to stay upright as well as to follow-up with a punch, kick, or retreat. For a novice kicker it probably makes it easier to get off a hard kick by pulling the leg and hips over with the upper body, but since strikes/kicks should never be depended on to finish the job -- just like handgun calibres -- the cost outweighes the benefit.

The benefit of a rear leg pivot kick is that it allows the leg to accelerate over a longer distance and allows hip strength to be fully applied. It also gives you more reach than a short round kick that utilizes no hip extension.

With that in mind it is best utilized when your opponent is backing up, or just has a lousy defense against kicks.

Arguing that this kick is not as effective as another is like saying a tool box should only carry hammers. This kick is slower than some but it can hit harder than some.

It can be applied on a horizontal plane by getting the knee and ankle up and perpendicular to the ground before the apex, or it can be brought up from the ground in a rising kick, either way the key difference between this and, say, a Muy Thai style low kick, is that the hips pivot (the kicking leg hip should be stacked over the supporting leg hip at extension), the supporting leg heel rotates towards the target more completely, and the upper body rolls with the kicking hip to add torque.

I would never (unless there was a very compelling reason) kick to the head with this kick (or any other) as I once fell on my can in a street fight doing just that. In the ring you can get up from a slip, but obviously the street is not so forgiving.

You don't need steel toed boots to successfully execute without fear of toe injury -- hard leather dress shoes or cowboy boots -- work just as well. That said, contacting with the ball of the foot in a real fight is more difficult than hitting with shin or instep and should be left to those that conduct plenty of practice in that technique.

As with any technique, the hands should be up protecting the upper body and face. For best balance the head should be kept as upright as possible. I don't believe (as one poster does) that real fighting requires "overbalancing" (is that another word for "unbalanced"?) Balance is a training issue, as you train so can you fight.

Possible negatives for this type of kick is that it requires a certain degree of flexibility to do well, it takes more time than a Muay Thai style round kick, and it turns your body fully sideways. Again, it is a tool that works well for certain situtations but not others.

My personal preference is to see all types of round kicks as variations on a single theme. Sometimes you need a short variation, sometimes long, sometimes with the hip, sometimes without.

But certainly, the illustration shows poor technique for any kick.

Regards,

Bat

Bri Thai
04-25-2005, 06:37 AM
Maybe the guys taught just weren't flexible enough to do it any other way. Just a thought.

ShanghaiJay
04-25-2005, 09:31 AM
What I am about to say is my theory so take it for what it is worth! That and a buck will get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks!

Sorry guys knowing O'Neill's background and history I need to give him more credit then to think he does not know how to kick properly. After all we are talking about one of the top ranked judoka in his day. He was also tasked with teaching the Devil's Brigade the badest of the bad H2H to fight the Germans. He must have thought very carefully about what he was doing.

Think about this you are in the mud and the snow you may have a pack on you are wearing boots caked with mud they are heavy you are trying to pick up your foot and kick someone without landing on your ass.

So I started reviewing everything I have been taught over the years in the way the Chinese kick. Without going into great detail let me say in the older Chinese system kicks are not used unless the hands are in contact with the opponent first.

The lesson is always "shou xian zuo" or "hands move first” This is why we see the finger jab to the eyes preceding the whip kick.

If we look at some of the Shuai Jiao or wrestling methods you will often see a sudden jerk, "cai" a pull, "lu or downward push "an" before the sweep or kick. I believe this is reason behind the hand and body placement in this pivot kick. This might be easier to understand for a judoka or a Taiji guy trained in "Da Lu".

Is it possible that the pivot kick being such a slow kick was employed only after the hands contacted a gun or an arm or leg that was subsequently pushed down while the kick was being placed?

Thoughts?

Jay

Coops
04-25-2005, 12:52 PM
Maybe the guys taught just weren't flexible enough to do it any other way. Just a thought.

Bri, stop and think for a minute. Maybe the guys who taught this were mentally flexible enough to realise that the operators (end users) would not be flexible. Certainly not, if they were wearing 30lb of kit, in low light, suddenly and with their hands full of equipment.

Only my opinion

Martin

SouthNarc
04-25-2005, 02:18 PM
With fighting loads creeping up in poundage as it has steadily over the years i.e body armor and plates is the norm now along with more ammo, maybe...just maybe kicking doesn't have much of a place in military combat anymore.

Just a thought.

Colonel B. Guano
04-25-2005, 02:29 PM
Being soldiers and not regular martial artists they probably did have less than optimum physical flexibility. For that reason they would have been better off with a shorter version of the kick that utilizes a half pivot with partial hip extension.

The fact that O'Neill was an experienced warfighter does not neccesarily mean he was a very technical kicker or that he knew the best ways to kick. I don't doubt that he was effective, but could he have been more effective? Both the USMC and Army teach an abbreviated H2H course, could the graduates of that course be more effective if they had more time to refine the techniques? Of course they could, which is why we ourselves continue to train even after we have attained a level of skill higher than 98% of the general population. The study of martial arts has come a long way since that illustration was first printed. A recent example being that 10 years ago everyone thought that BJJ was the be all and end all for combatives. Now we know that BJJ is just one piece of the pie, and that it is possible to stop a grappler before the fight goes to the ground if you know how and have the skill.

Also, I would say that you would not be advised to use that kick in a low-light environment while wearing 30 to 90lbs of kit. Try that kick as illustrated while wearing chicken plates and carrying 200 rounds of ammo and an M4 while standing on a tile floor dusted with sand. You'll have a real balance and footing issue to deal with, never mind the chair you smack your head on when you bend over (as illustrated).

Regarding placing hands on opponent before kicking: The full extension roundhouse pivot kick is meant to be thrown from beyond hand distance. Not to say that it is not a good idea to feint high with the hands before kicking low, but if you are at hand distance a short round kick or knee is probably a better choice.

Regards,

Bat

RES
04-25-2005, 02:31 PM
Here's an idea I'm floating out here:

With the weight of loads creeping up, and the knowledge that the most frequent medical complaint of retired police officers is lower back pain, perhaps what is needed is a calisthenic routine which is geared toward integrating the use of the legs, hips, abdomen and lower back, and improving the strength and flexibility of same (while also providing a significant cardiovascular benefit). To this end, maybe a kicking program (which is practiced with this in mind) might be something to consider.

V42
04-25-2005, 06:58 PM
. . . or maybe pilates or yoga, if used to promote health and flexibility (I know little of either)


On the subject of kicks, here are some more pictures of interations of the O'Neil Pivot kick. The first is from basic training in either the 1960s or 1970s

V42
04-25-2005, 07:01 PM
And from the Modern Marine MA system showing a similar kick at the point of extension..

All-in fighting
04-25-2005, 07:02 PM
yes, this is the o'neill pivot kick, does it still look bad?---ralph

Skpotamus
04-25-2005, 08:32 PM
Those look like good kicks. Hands are up to defend, and the kicker is balanced well. The first pic I had serious issues with. These last two look good to me.

Coops
04-25-2005, 11:26 PM
I see that the kick in the second photo is as taught in the PPCT curriculum. I have taught it as part of said lessons for many years. However, although we teach it I don't see it used operationally. Having said that, neither do I see the O'neil version either.

People who don't partake in any combat arts tend to want their feet on the ground in adversity.To be honest, I find that even MAist rarely use kicks when the s**t hits the fan.

Coops

RES
04-26-2005, 03:03 AM
The kick shown in the photos is a textbook TKD diagonal kick. It's also known by a few other names, I believe.

todd_xxxx
04-26-2005, 05:30 AM
Settling for soemthing in your training is not the way to go IMHO. While the techniques taught in WW2 style combatives are very good ones and do work, they can be added to with techniques and skill sets that are harder to learn and take longer to develop. You have this time to develop these skills and techniques while you still have the WW2 combatives skillls to rely on while your new skills are being developed.


Your post insinuates that WWII combatives are lacking something, and that "techniques and skill sets that are harder to learn and take longer" are somehow better. You also call combatives "settling for something". I think you're missing the boat entirely. "Combatives" is a complete system. The reason people need to add to it is simply because of the mindset that as soon as you show a person an axehand, they think "okay, I know that, show me something else". Okay, let me teach you a back spinning crescent kick. That feels awkward and hard and will take lots of practice. Okay great, now I have something to work on. All that time you spend working on the "harder" techniques would be better spent working on the same basic things if actually learning something useful is the goal. If you want to study MA's for the social aspect, for enlightenment, whatever, cool, spend 20 years on the esoteric aspects of them. If you study because you're worried about saving your ass, or more importantly, the people you love, better spend the time on the simple, basic techniques that you will actually need to use. I would like it if you could elaborate on what exactly you're "settling for" if you don't add to the "combatives" techniques.

Marc "Crafty Dog" Denny
04-26-2005, 06:14 AM
Certainly the foto looks A LOT better to my eye. Question: Is the left foot pointed the way it should be?

todd_xxxx
04-26-2005, 06:21 AM
Question: Is the left foot pointed the way it should be?

Not if he wants to be able to kick with any power at all.



With fighting loads creeping up in poundage as it has steadily over the years i.e body armor and plates is the norm now along with more ammo, maybe...just maybe kicking doesn't have much of a place in military combat anymore.

Just a thought.

I think that pretty well nails it.

mudvillejon
04-26-2005, 07:17 AM
The stamping low kicks, and knees seem well adapted for an individual encumbered either with a load or clothing that restricts movement. I was travelling on business the other week. Moving through a crowded train station, I realized that the backpack with computer and other job related impedimentia put me more or less in the same situation as if I were carrying a tactical load.

It actually makes the chin jab and axe hands make more sense. The Pack puts my center of gravity so far away from my own axis that anything requiring discrete body rotation would be awkward. Most round kicks, or even boxing punches would be hard.

Marc "Crafty Dog" Denny
04-26-2005, 09:23 AM
Woof All:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc "Crafty Dog" Denny
Question: Is the left foot pointed the way it should be?

TODD: Not if he wants to be able to kick with any power at all.

Marc/Crafty: That's the way it looks to me-- balance would seem to be vulnerable to forward pressure as well.
------------------------


Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthNarc
With fighting loads creeping up in poundage as it has steadily over the years i.e body armor and plates is the norm now along with more ammo, maybe...just maybe kicking doesn't have much of a place in military combat anymore.

Just a thought.

Marc/Crafty:

A fair point SN, but please allow me to quibble.

These are the kicking modalities with which I have some experience (some more and some less)

1) TKD-- well known by all. Upper body up on low kicks and drops back on high kicks.

2) Savate (lineage Duby-Vunak) -- most kicks depart from the same chamber, which is the hip pointed. Several of the kicks "whip" from the hip and toe of shoe is a primary striking surface.. In contrast to TKD, the upper body is up on high kicks and down on low kicks. Sophisticated angling in its footwork and zoning of one's head. Superior ability to strike in combination with one leg before putting foot down. Some kicks, e.g. the chasse, can be used to cover ground well.

3) Krabi Krabong and its ring sport subset Muay Thai. KK is a battlefield system and its kicks are designed to be part of a blitzing buzzsaw weaponry attack that is covering ground hard and fast. In contrast MT kicks are relatively stationary.

4) Pananjakman: FMA low line kicking designed to be done in conjuntion with mid and close range weaponry fighting. Very ugly, and when used properly, very effective.

5) Silat: quick description-- looks like a blend of KK, and Pananjakman.

Although a civilian, I have worn the full kit at the invitation of some people , , , I was impressed at how well-balanced it was. Should one be in suitable range and without the ability to send rapidly flying little pieces of led the enemy's way, IMHO the KK, the Pananjakman and Silat kicks continue to have relevance.

Woof
Marc/Crafty Dog

Skpotamus
04-26-2005, 11:16 AM
Your post insinuates that WWII combatives are lacking something, and that "techniques and skill sets that are harder to learn and take longer" are somehow better. You also call combatives "settling for something". I think you're missing the boat entirely. "Combatives" is a complete system. The reason people need to add to it is simply because of the mindset that as soon as you show a person an axehand, they think "okay, I know that, show me something else". Okay, let me teach you a back spinning crescent kick. That feels awkward and hard and will take lots of practice. Okay great, now I have something to work on. All that time you spend working on the "harder" techniques would be better spent working on the same basic things if actually learning something useful is the goal. If you want to study MA's for the social aspect, for enlightenment, whatever, cool, spend 20 years on the esoteric aspects of them. If you study because you're worried about saving your ass, or more importantly, the people you love, better spend the time on the simple, basic techniques that you will actually need to use. I would like it if you could elaborate on what exactly you're "settling for" if you don't add to the "combatives" techniques.

I'm glad your combatives training makes you happy. Back off of mine though. just because it doesn't have your stamp of approval on it doesn;t mean that it's not on par with, or better than yours. Personally, I'm completely happy with my instructor who was a professional fighter in 3 different arenas. Taught H2H for the marine corps, and teaches defensive H2H tactics for the police dept (certified IDPTA instructor I think, I'd have to check though). If that's not good enough for you, don't train with me, but don't knock my training methods or system either.

If my post seemed like an attack to you system or it's usefulness, it was unintentional and I apologize. I don't want to start a "my kung fu is better than yours" pissing contest on a very good thread.

I grew up fighting, I don't study some BS fancy assed MA because I'm some Jackie Chan wanna be. I TRAIN hard in a basic system that works, so I can save my ass and defend my loved ones (I have had to do that before, and my Muay Thai and Shootwrestling served me just fine). Just becasue the basics of my system are different than yours doesn't mean mine are inferior, or yours are. It just means they are different.

While learning your axe hand is great. Developing power and speed for it as well as a skill set and delivery system for it that fits and works for you takes time. That's not a technique, that's a SKILL. Skills take time to develop and time to keep sharp once you get them. You can show someone how to throw and axe hand in a few minutes and get them to do it right. Getting them to be able to use it in a real fight effectively takes much longer.

Some of the harder to learn and develop skills techniques I've trained and put to good use include throwing techniques, such as my Uchi-mata, which has done me quite well on asphalt.
Tomoe Nage, which worked when I was charged from close and couldn't sidestep and didn't want to smear my drunk friends face all over the bar with knees, elbows, palm heel strikes and knife hand strikes.
Submission holds, including a rear naked choke that I flowed into off of a haymaker block,
a guilotine choke that stopped a tackle,
an arm triangle that came off of a parried right hand. As well as a triangle choke from guard that happened when I didn't sprawl in time.
My heel hook which stopped the guy from kicking me on the ground when I got knocked down from behind.
My clinch work and high kicks, which have won me several matches in both MT and MMA, as well as getting me kicked out of my high school my sophomore year for sending a linebacker to the hospital with a broken jaw when he picked a fight with me.

All of the above took time to develop and learn how to do properly. All I have used to great result in real, un-restrained fights. There are more tech's and skills I've used, but this post is getting lengthy. All of which are intermediate to advanced methods in my system. The basics, such as my palm heel, knife hands, elbows, knees, punches and low kicks, as well as my grab escapes (which I consider basics) have served me to fill in the holes where my advanced skills didn't fit and kept me gonig until my advanced skills were developed to the point that they were useful to me.

I have a larger tool box, and can find the right tool for the job. If I have a screw, I can use a screwdriver, I don't need to pound it in with my hammer until it works. I still have that option in case my screw driver doesn't fit right, but I have the ability to use either.


BTW, in MT the foot would be rotated further and the hips would be more in line with the kicking leg, getting more power from the hips. The right hand would be swept back for balance, while the left hand would be on the forehead for defense. The toes would be pointed and kept tight for impact and the impact point would be the shin.

In TKD, the foot would be rotated further for more power. But everything else would be the same.



edited to add: I'm sorry if this post sounds pissy or whiny, I'm stressed out from finals week and shouldn't really be posting, but I did anyways. I meant no offense to anyone and apologize if anything I typed came across in an offensive manner.

SouthNarc
04-26-2005, 11:34 AM
Hey buddy,

I don't think you're quibbling at all and pretty much get where you're coming from. I have good Thai from Ajarn Chai, and many of the same references vis-a-vis Silat and Pananjakman, but the Savate work is weak in comparison to you and the KK is non-existent.

I'm not saying that you can't do it Mark or that there may not be some application. I'm just saying that if part of assaulting an objective is forward drive, violence of action and aggressive movement while wearing very encumbering gear (IBA with plates), then anything that that turns you into a monopod however briefly needs to really be looked at hard.

My POV besides that of a martial artist, also comes from carrying a ruck sack frequently that went over 90 lbs back in the day on active duty, and also wearing a roughly equivalent assault kit to that of soldiers in Iraq as a SWAT team commander.

I think that you know me well enough to know that context is a huge part of how I structure curriculum. For the most part today, soldiers are almost ALL wearing body armor, hard plates, a helmet, around eight to ten magazines, demo, pyro, smoke, maybe a handgun, belt kit, water and an M4 that's usually slung around the body or neck. Infantrymen carry more shit than ever.

Personally I think that a big part of military combatives should start from where the rifle is mounted.

Why would a soldier use his hands?

The gun has gone click and there's no time to transition to a handgun.

The adversary is inside the length of the rifle trying to negate the muzzle or snatch it away.

The soldier is unarmed, which is very unlikely unless he's escaped from enemy confinement and is on an E&E.

The soldier is engaged in Operations Other Than War, Foreign Internal Defense, nation-building, peacekeeping, whatever...but not direct combat operations that involve taking a piece of real estate or killing folks. Narrow but within scope...more policing than soldiering.

That being said I think that first and foremost the training should be conducted while wearing full kit and conducting the tasks that soldiers normally carry out...such as assaulting a room. Then let someone charge in full bore from 9 or 3 at close range and work whatever techniques from there.

If that's the norm for when a soldier uses his hands, I'd really be interested to see how much kicking comes out.

I'm not saying that kicking doesn't have a place...I just think it's minimal given the overall parmeters of when and where a soldier is going to use his hands. Combine that with how much time you have to conduct a block of training for a unit that's getting ready to deploy to a hot zone....maybe 8 or 16 hrs in a predeplyment work-up?... and once again IMO kicking takes a low priority in the curriculum.

But that's just my opinion and that's subjective. :)

I need to take a look at the KK. I'm going to probably be in SoCal in September doing an ECQC course. Maybe we can hook up and I can let you kick me around a bit? ;)

All-in fighting
04-26-2005, 11:50 AM
gents, kicks have a place, low, fast and non-telegraphic---short toe kicks, side kicks inside edge [ oblique kicks] some do very bad damage, others set it up--esp with boots on !--ralph

todd_xxxx
04-26-2005, 12:09 PM
I'm glad your combatives training makes you happy. Back off of mine though. just because it doesn't have your stamp of approval on it doesn;t mean that it's not on par with, or better than yours. Personally, I'm completely happy with my instructor who was a professional fighter in 3 different arenas. Taught H2H for the marine corps, and teaches defensive H2H tactics for the police dept (certified IDPTA instructor I think, I'd have to check though). If that's not good enough for you, don't train with me, but don't knock my training methods or system either.

Not sure where your attitude is coming from. I was simply commenting on your post. As far as the "back off of mine" and "don't knock my training..." remarks, I didn't know what you studied and didn't comment on whatever you may or may not be studying, I just asked what you perceived the shortcomings of combatives to be. Thank you for the rundown of your personal fighting prowess, but it wasn't necessary, since I didn't question your ability, that of your teacher, or what your personal style was. I was only concerned with what you thought the shortcomings of combatives were. I'm no longer concerned with that either. Best of luck with the finals.

Marc "Crafty Dog" Denny
04-26-2005, 01:54 PM
Ralph:

Agreed.

SN:

I too get where you are coming from, but my answer will need to wait until we meet-- got any slots for an old dog in your course? ;-)

With training from Ajarn Chai under you belt, you will pick up KK very quickly-- it is designed to get thousands of peasants up to speed in short order , , , ;)

BTW there is a great B movie from Thailand called "Ong Bak" which has become quite the cult hit here in the US which shows lots of KK quite well, albeit in movie fashion.

Skpotamus writes:

"BTW, in MT the foot would be rotated further and the hips would be more in line with the kicking leg, getting more power from the hips. The right hand would be swept back for balance, while the left hand would be on the forehead for defense. The toes would be pointed and kept tight for impact and the impact point would be the shin."

The right hand swept back motion to which you refer descends from the simultaneous backhand sword slash of KK as does the Left hand on the forehead-- which the handle of the KK sword continuing past the hand pretty much to the elbow, this is a valid backup shielding motion as well as a load for the kill when the kick causes the hands of the enemy to involuntarily drop.

The Adventure continues,
Crafty Dog (or Marc with a "c")

SouthNarc
04-26-2005, 01:56 PM
got any slots for an old dog in your course? ;-)


Well of course! I'll shoot you the dates as soon as the host get's the range locked in.

fish78
04-26-2005, 02:08 PM
I think what is important here is to remember just who O'Neill was teaching. He was teaching men who although many had led rough and tumble lives, had little formal training. I suspect that if a man spoke up with the criticisms I have read here, O'Neill would have encouraged them to modify the kick to conform with their previous training...I don't think he was ego driven or doctrinaire.

Marc "Crafty Dog" Denny
04-26-2005, 02:08 PM
I'm doing a seminar in Switzerland the first week of September , , ,

Wilhelm
04-26-2005, 05:14 PM
Well of course! I'll shoot you the dates as soon as the host get's the range locked in.


I would be interested in that also SN.

Gabriel Suarez
04-26-2005, 06:38 PM
Gents,

I came in late and scanned the thread. My opinion.

I've used a few kicks in for-real events.

1). When the price of failure is death, keep the kicks low to shins and feet. High kicks are pretty, but try to do 'em in boots and BDUs, or worse in jeans and shoes. Not likely.

Any move that sacrifices your balance must be eliminated.

2). After having studied fighting since 1970, I can say that most modern martial arts kicks are worhtless in a real fight. Rather than try to do a roundhouse, or a side kick or some other stylized leg movement, think "Walk Violently".

The video on Krabi mentioned by Marc has some of this. McCann als has some good footwork in his tapes.

3). On most side walks and urban surfaces, not to mention slippery rural surfaces, anything involving pivots will land you on your back. I've seen it time and again on the street. I even saw it in sport. Most recently I was watching Frank Shamrock throw a high kick, lose his balance (all warmed up and ready for battle wearing fight gear), and get pummeled into unconsciousness by a man he probably could have taken.

Watch your kicks boys, keep 'em low, keep 'em simple, and practice walking right through 'em.

Skpotamus
04-26-2005, 09:07 PM
Crafty dog, I didn't know that about MT. I just tried it with a short weight bar, and it makes it a lot more balanced.

Where can I find more out about KK? There any instructors around Indiana.

Thanks

Marc "Crafty Dog" Denny
04-26-2005, 09:39 PM
Skpotamus:

Funny you should ask ;)

So far we have:

http://dogbrothers.com/product_info.php?cPath=31&products_id=73

A second one with Ajarn Salty is on the drawing board and will feature Staff and Mai Sowks (like tonfa but different-- MT's elbowing structure descends from MS)

But before that (i.e. this summer) we will be releasing Los Triques (our blend of Kali & KK) this summer featuring some kick and stick combinations.

End of commercial.

Out,
Marc/Crafty

Shdwdncr
04-27-2005, 03:33 AM
I'm doing a seminar in Switzerland the first week of September , , ,

Count me in Marc. I plan to attend that seminar and hopefully learn great things from you. :)

S.

Belisarius
04-27-2005, 06:57 AM
Re: battlefield kicking. I think SouthNarc is bringing to the discussion his background in what the Brits would call both "greenside" (operations based off of light infantry patrolling) and "blackside" (dedicated CQB team) aspects of a unit's METL.

In the patrolling context, kicking is one of the first things to get jettisoned and HTH generally is probably next. When you strap a man up for a 72-96-hour R&S op, he's carrying a ton of stuff. You can't even don those packs safely without being helped by your buddy or sitting down, putting the straps through, and turning on your hands and knees before getting up. Your center of gravity may suffer simply because immediate demands force you to put soft, light stuff on the bottom of your pack and heavy, metallic stuff towards the top.

Marc "Crafty Dog" Denny
04-27-2005, 09:21 AM
"Crafty dog, I didn't know that about MT."

Just to follow up on this point a little bit more. Anyone with decent MT skills should be able to pick up functional KK in even shorter order than those starting at the beginning. In many ways (the best ones) it is a system of highly evolved simplicity.

Again and again I have heard MT trained people tell me that they feel they understand their MT better because of the KK.

To use a simple example (assume a righty here) a kickboxer type person (basic MT kicks, boxing structure on top) will regard throwing the right hand down for power to be unsound because the opponent can step in with a strong jolting jab to the right jaw that can disrupt the impact of the kick i.e. due to his boxing structure, his left hand is covering his left jaw, whereas someone coming out of KK/MT will be protecting his right jaw with his left forearm.

(Do note that throwing the arm down is not required, in this moment I simple discuss those that do this. There are other correct motions for right arm as well.)

Moving along, Gabe's point about walking violently is quite sound, and KK seeks to take it further by running violently down the opponent's throat. This training cultivates the first building block of bilateralism-- stepping through with power. The training allows for cultivating a good sense of the simple motions that work in this context: teeps, knees, etc. These occur was the opponent fails to retreat as fast as the advance. No argument here that there are circs unsuitable even for these-- as SN and Bel. describe.

Concerning high kicks: very agreed. Indeed my definition of a high kick is the bladder/groin, a mid-kick is the thigh and a low kick is the calf/shin.

Woof,
Crafty Dog

Cold War Scout
04-27-2005, 09:50 AM
If I may be allowed to speak (grasshopper that I am):

The Dog Brothers videos I have seen are nothing less than sensational in demonstrating excellent structure, balance, principles of movement, etc. They have helped me in contending with pretty intenmse knife fighting training as well.

todd_xxxx
04-27-2005, 10:00 AM
When I watch their videos, I just keep thinking "damn, I would hate to have that guy hit me with a stick".