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View Full Version : Thoughts On The BUIS And The Red Dot Concept



Gabriel Suarez
07-24-2010, 09:06 AM
When we first added the RMR unit to the Glocks my thought was the red dot sight is tough enough and the BUIS is redundantly unnecessary. But as we developed the concept more we realized that redundant was a good thing, and that just like on rifles, having a back up system in place instantly was a great assest.

We found that the various added dots and bars, and notches really did not solve the problem. The rear sight, or what acted as the rear sight needed to be independantly adjustable from the red dot or the two would never coincide except by pure luck. Thus through the creativity of our Technical Services Division, we managed to add a bonafide rear sight. Together with a suitably tall front sight, we presented, for the first time, a truly usable cowitnessed red dot system for the combat handgun.

Recently we have seen photos of attempts to emulate this work by adding a rear sight in front of the red dot unit. When I first saw this it struck me as an unusual solution. There was something that seemed out of place but I could not clarify my opinion sufficiently. In truth, this is simply an installation shortcut by the gunsmith since he does not have to work as hard to fit both the red dot AND the rear sight on the limited real estate available on a S&W MP. It also simplifies a need I suppose to retro-fit existing guns that have been dedicated to the Red Dot Only.

The problem with it is that it only solves one of the two issues for which the rear sight is needed.

One issue is its presence is needed in the event the red dot fails. While I have had my own RMR running since January with several thousand rounds through it, anything man made can fail. In that eventuality one can simply transition, visually, to the iron sights, and carry on. In this case, the forward mounted rear sight will be adequate albeit less useful than it would be in its standard position. Why? Because of what your eye is already accustomed to looking for. Specifically - your subconscious mind expects to see the rear sight at a given spot in space. Deviate from that and you will need training time to recover.

Moreover, the sights at the rear most spot allow for the most definite sight usage as possible. Sight radius is an issue when using these pistols with irons. If runninmg sights "way up there" was advantageous, competitors would be doing it.

The second issue is that we found that running red dot only had users visually hunting for the dot. It took some training time to get past that, but lacking the additional two points of contact that a red dot sighted rifle provides, any deviation in grip will have the eyes on the hunt again. That exemplifies the second great asset of the Suppressor sights mounted in the standard position. That they are where your eye expects them to be. But BEHOLD....right there as well is the red dot...bright as well, a red light. No need to hunt the dot, or spend training time transitioning the eyes. The same hand eye coordination and skillset you developed via thousands of draws will serve you to use this red dot system with zero transition training.

Your pistol is what you carry 24/7 and probably what you will use to fight the battle against evil should it come your way. It is no place for shotrcuts, or quick-fixes. Do it right the first time and you will thank yourself when the day of truth arrives at your door.

For RMR installations on Glocks, and S&W MPs (http://www.onesourcetactical.com)

Wilson
07-24-2010, 12:38 PM
We've very much like to run a few rounds through on one of these before investing in a pair. Will you be bringing one to the Nov 8-10 Combat Pistol Instructor School in Houston?
Bill Hickman

Gabriel Suarez
07-24-2010, 12:47 PM
We've very much like to run a few rounds through on one of these before investing in a pair. Will you be bringing one to the Nov 8-10 Combat Pistol Instructor School in Houston?
Bill Hickman

Its my EDC so yes

Wilson
07-24-2010, 01:36 PM
We're looking forward to it. See you there.

DocGKR
07-26-2010, 01:37 AM
We have been trialing mini-RDS equipped pistols for several months, as discussed in a previous thread. As Gabe noted above, it has become quite obvious that back-up iron sights are an important adjunct. When the RMR on my G19 malfunctioned and ceased working recently, it was no big deal, as the iron sights installed by OST worked flawlessly and allowed an immediate transition with no wasted time or missed shots.

http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=download&Number=7020&filename=Glock%20RMR.jpg

Also, as noted before, since shifting over to mini-RDS equipped handguns, I've been experimenting with the Dale Fricke (http://dalefrickeholsters.com) Seraphim IWB holster, as it is specifically designed for use with pistols having an RMR mounted--so far it is working very well when used for IWB at 3-4 o'clock, as well as AIWB at 12 to 1 o'clock or so. I like the comfort, concealability, retention, and versatility of the holster. After dedicating the last week to full-time use with this holster type, I decided to switch to the Fricke Seraphim holster for all IWB/AIWB use with my mini-RDS equipped pistols.

tb1911
07-27-2010, 05:46 AM
When we first added the RMR unit to the Glocks my thought was the red dot sight is tough enough and the BUIS is redundantly unnecessary. But as we developed the concept more we realized that redundant was a good thing, and that just like on rifles, having a back up system in place instantly was a great assest.

We found that the various added dots and bars, and notches really did not solve the problem. The rear sight, or what acted as the rear sight needed to be independantly adjustable from the red dot or the two would never coincide except by pure luck. Thus through the creativity of our Technical Services Division's Mark Housel, we managed to add a bonafide rear sight. Together with a suitably tall front sight, we presented, for the first time, a truly usable cowitnessed red dot system for the combat handgun.

Recently we have seen photos of attempts to emulate this work by adding a rear sight in front of the red dot unit. When I first saw this it struck me as an unusual solution. There was something that seemed out of place but I could not clarify my opinion sufficiently. In truth, this is simply an installation shortcut by the gunsmith since he does not have to work as hard to fit both the red dot AND the rear sight on the limited real estate available on a S&W MP. It also simplifies a need I suppose to retro-fit existing guns that have been dedicated to the Red Dot Only.

The problem with it is that it only solves one of the two issues for which the rear sight is needed.

One issue is its presence is needed in the event the red dot fails. While I have had my own RMR running since January with several thousand rounds through it, anything man made can fail. In that eventuality one can simply transition, visually, to the iron sights, and carry on. In this case, the forward mounted rear sight will be adequate albeit less useful than it would be in its standard position. Why? Because of what your eye is already accustomed to looking for. Specifically - your subconscious mind expects to see the rear sight at a given spot in space. Deviate from that and you will need training time to recover.

Moreover, the sights at the rear most spot allow for the most definite sight usage as possible. Sight radius is an issue when using these pistols with irons. If runninmg sights "way up there" was advantageous, competitors would be doing it.

The second issue is that we found that running red dot only had users visually hunting for the dot. It took some training time to get past that, but lacking the additional two points of contact that a red dot sighted rifle provides, any deviation in grip will have the eyes on the hunt again. That exemplifies the second great asset of the Suppressor sights mounted in the standard position. That they are where your eye expects them to be. But BEHOLD....right there as well is the red dot...bright as well, a red light. No need to hunt the dot, or spend training time transitioning the eyes. The same hand eye coordination and skillset you developed via thousands of draws will serve you to use this red dot system with zero transition training.

Your pistol is what you carry 24/7 and probably what you will use to fight the battle against evil should it come your way. It is no place for shotrcuts, or quick-fixes. Do it right the first time and you will thank yourself when the day of truth arrives at your door.

For RMR installations on Glocks, and S&W MPs (http://www.onesourcetactical.com)

Gabe - The link above says for Glocks and S&W M&Ps. I am ready to move forward with this on my M&P but I only saw the packages available for Glocks. Did I miss it or is it coming soon?

Thanks!

Gabriel Suarez
07-27-2010, 05:52 AM
Waiting on the sights

SinistralRifleman
07-27-2010, 09:17 AM
One benefit I have found with having the sights in line with the dot is that if you switch back to shooting a normal pistol for any reason, you won't have lost anything as far as acquiring the sights on the draw. The way I trained myself to acquire the dot was to find the front sight on the draw as I always did and then pick up the dot.

I think this is an important feature because you may not always be able to use your gun; you may have to "borrow" one, or you may have multiple guns and can't afford to outfit them all with RMRs.

VaGlocker
07-27-2010, 09:41 AM
How about a set of CT laser grips instead of a BUIS? Even though it is also has electronics etc.. the odds of both the RMR and the CT going down at the same time would seem to be slim.

Little Teapot
07-27-2010, 09:45 AM
How about a set of CT laser grips instead of a BUIS? Even though it is also has electronics etc.. the odds of both the RMR and the CT going down at the same time would seem to be slim.
In my experience, because they use a red laser, CT laser grips are good only for low-light situations. The laser is practically invisible during the day or in well lit situations.

Try CT grips on a normally-lit day outside and you'll see what I mean.
.
.
.

RayMich
07-27-2010, 09:59 AM
Although most of these electronic sights are supposed to be water tight to a nominal depth, there is always the possibilities that the electronic sight and/or laser could be damaged in a struggle and then somehow get wet making it inoperable. Since electronics don't get along with water too well, I would rather rely on BUIS if the RMR fails for some reason, rather than rely to on another piece of electronics that could also fail for the same reason.

My vote would be for the BUIS as Gabe has proposed. Nice and simple solution.

Thanks Gabe. You could be guilty of "forcing me" (LOL) to buy a Glock after all. DARN! :D - Now I have to start saving my pennies. :)

Mickey Rourke
07-27-2010, 03:12 PM
...the odds of both the RMR and the CT going down at the same time would seem to be slim.Electro-Magnetic Pulse :D

Gabriel Suarez
07-27-2010, 04:16 PM
How about a set of CT laser grips instead of a BUIS? Even though it is also has electronics etc.. the odds of both the RMR and the CT going down at the same time would seem to be slim.

Bad idea. You can add a laser if you wish but it does not replace the BUIS nor what it does. Search is your friend.;)

jamesavery22
08-04-2010, 09:01 AM
...
We found that the various added dots and bars, and notches really did not solve the problem. The rear sight, or what acted as the rear sight needed to be independantly adjustable from the red dot or the two would never coincide except by pure luck...

What was the process to add a dot/notch to the rear of the RMR?

My plan was:

Install a RMR with no dot/notch at all and keep tall front sight
Guess where a dot/notch should be to act as a rear sight
Draw dot/notch on the back of the RMR with sharpie/white-out/whatever
Test fire
Note POI & POA
If POI doesnt equal POA Erase & redraw dot/notch to adjust & repeat 4-5
Use final "drawing" as template to make permanent dot/notch into RMRWas my plan until I read no ones dot/notch's were working. What part of the process broke?

entry red
08-04-2010, 10:05 AM
It would be neat if a company made a reddot sight with a rear BUIS built into the mount.

Gabriel Suarez
08-04-2010, 10:21 AM
Was my plan until I read no ones dot/notch's were working. What part of the process broke?

It is just as easy, and you will note we do not charge any more for, adding the BUIS on the slide.

I thought of the dot/line on the back of the RMR, and volunteered an actual RMR (not a cheap test I will point out:(). I had it installed with no back up iron sights and had a dot cut and painted in the back of the RMR.

Boy did it look good in the pics! But the dot/bar did not coincide with the red dot when the red dot was zeroed. Problem? Yes it is. Why? Because one of the iron/non-red dot sighting points (front or rear) MUST be adjustable. If it is not, it is the same as adding fixed non-adjustable sights to the gun. How will you ever zero it? You cannot.

The red dot is easy to zero, but for the dot/bar or whatever to be zeroable as well, it would have to have the red dot unit be drift adjustable. Not possible with any available unit.

So I abandoned the idea and had TSD simply move the RMR forward and add a real, drift adjustable, iron sight on the existing dovetail. That solves all the problems.

http://www.onesourcetactical.com/images/products/detail/IMG_1141.jpg

Look at this picture. The RMR is mounted INTO the slide, but forward of the position for the rear sight. Then a "tall enough" rear sight is added with a corresponding front sight. This will give you all the capabilities of the red dot, with all the capabilities of a true, cowitnessed, iron sight back up system.

This system as you see pictured, makes all other red dot installation concepts, OBSOLETE.

Gabriel Suarez
08-04-2010, 10:22 AM
It would be neat if a company made a reddot sight with a rear BUIS built into the mount.

J Point tried it and it failed the test of reality. See my post above.

jamesavery22
08-04-2010, 11:03 AM
Could you zero the red dot before you cut the rear white dot into the back of the sight?

Zero the actual red dot then use the sight picture of the front post and the red dot as the guide for cutting the rear white dot in the back of the sight?

Wouldn't that make all 3 line up?

I guess you're still screwed if you have to change batteries and the red dot moves after remounting.

Gabriel Suarez
08-04-2010, 12:13 PM
Could you zero the red dot before you cut the rear white dot into the back of the sight?

Zero the actual red dot then use the sight picture of the front post and the red dot as the guide for cutting the rear white dot in the back of the sight?

Wouldn't that make all 3 line up?

I guess you're still screwed if you have to change batteries and the red dot moves after remounting.

Too much drama and chaos. Simple soultion....get a slide with a back up sight.:cool:

Mickey Rourke
08-04-2010, 03:34 PM
J Point tried it and it failed the test of reality.I will say mine is very close, but not exact, for windage, but off on elevation. I have removed mine three times and got it back to zero without shooting it except to verify. When I line up the J-point BUIS, the dot just splits the front blade to the left. However, to get the correct elevation, I'd need a front post too high to fit in my holster :eek:

All-in-all, I'd have to agree with this statement
Simple soultion....get a slide with a back up sight

Jack Shannow
08-07-2010, 11:17 AM
Any idea when these back up sights for M&P will arrive?

MTS
08-07-2010, 06:32 PM
Any idea when these back up sights for M&P will arrive?

They are under development.

I am checking on progress this week.

azerious85
08-08-2010, 02:15 AM
now all that's left is to make a "Airsoft" version of the RDS for airsoft Glocks so in FOF you can get that same sight picture:p any ideas on the drawing board yet?

Mickey Rourke
08-08-2010, 03:56 AM
now all that's left is to make a "Airsoft" version of the RDS for airsoft Glocks so in FOF you can get that same sight picture:p any ideas on the drawing board yet?From my FoF experience, just a shell that mimics the outline of the RDS should be enough.

At FoF speed and distance, you aren't likely to get a 'sight picture'.

baker
08-08-2010, 06:37 AM
I can't thank Gabe enough for pioneering this concept for us. My RMR is in hand, and the gunsmith should get-r-done this week. I was able to order the holster and suppressor sights from OST, too.

Heartfelt thank you!!

Tom

Chain
08-09-2010, 12:05 AM
Is there a standard footprint for mini-reddots? I'm wondering about milling a slide to accommodate a given MRD and then you'd be screwed when the next greatest one is released and doesn't fit the cut-down area. :(

mike
08-09-2010, 07:04 AM
Will the back up sights be available for purchase separately?
I can get the Trijicon Red dot sights but I haven't found any tall enough sights to complement the whole thing.
Sending my slide/s for installation is not an option for me :(.

MTS
08-09-2010, 07:12 AM
Will the back up sights be available for purchase separately?

http://www.onesourcetactical.com/amerigloglocksupressorsights.aspx

:)

mike
08-09-2010, 07:14 AM
I'm Swedish, and I work in Haiti...
I once send a G19 to Novak for some 'work' but that was before 9/11 (sometimes in the 1990-ies!).
After 9/11 it's just too much paperwork. I'd much rather pop over to Prescott next time I'm in AZ and pick up a pair of sights myself.:)

mike
08-09-2010, 07:16 AM
There we are: I haven't been paying attention to the OST updates!
Thanks for the head up. Much appreciated!

Mickey Rourke
08-09-2010, 08:50 AM
The J-Point and RMR can share the same mounting as the mounting holes do not interfere with each other.Wow, I didn't realize this :cool: