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chevy01234
04-11-2005, 04:32 PM
I am gonna introduce myself real quick, Im 19 years old, from mississippi and although I didnt post any thing at SDF, I was a member, that is until the fallout. Anyways I was going to get ya'lls opinion on a situation that occured a few weekends ago. This will be kind of long so please be patient. I drove some friends to a party (I'm not a big drinker so I usually volunteer to DD), about thirty minutes into it, I hear a big commotion and see a guy I graduated with talking pretty aggressively to a group of guys, This guy will talk crap to anyone and always wants people to help him finish what he starts. One of the guys stepped up to his face and they talked eye to eye with their noses almost touching. Now out of respect for the girl whose house we were at I stepped in. Not aggressively in fact, I gently touched the other guys arm and said "hey man" and he looked around and said "who the F*** are you?" I noticed he sized me up and while he was ,I said "Whoa, Im just being nice, you do the same ok?" I think he was shocked and appologised to me. I am a decent sized guy and he figured out quick that I was alot bigger and not intimidated by him. One of the other guys from his group noticed me from the gym we work out at and I asked him to step to the side and please calm him down for the sake of the girl. She was getting worried about someone getting hurt. Anyways they both had there "you better watch yourself" kind of last words and that was the end of it. Now here comes the kicker, Saturday night I saw the same group of guys and they came up and thanked me for stopping them from "hurting that dude", I said no problem and then one of the thugs informed me he thought about stabbing the guy I graduated with and pulled his knife out, i guess to show me he had one. I was replaying the night and was trying to see what I would have done had he pulled out a knife. Now I have no formal training and I was relatively unarmed ( I had my spyderco delica in my pocket a Baton in my truck and a Glock 20 in my truck as well). The only thing I could think of was to back up to my truck and get the baton out if he had pulled it. He MIGHT be bluffing but there is no way to get in his head and find out. I guess I would try and talk to him to get him to put the knife up and leave but if he didnt the baton would be deployed. Now all this is based on him whipping the knife out and hesitating but if he went to stabbing the guy before I had the baton I believe I would hit him in the head as hard as I could and pray I knock him out ( based on him focusing on the other guy and me giving him a very, very, hard and cheap shot to the ear or chin), I am not sure though. Thats why I am asking, I am not claiming to be an expert on anything nor am I trying to waste your time. I am just looking for some honest answers. I feel alot of them will be dont get involved and unless it is absoloutely needed I wouldnt. I am also not willing to stand around and watch someone get stabbed to death. Alright well there it is, Thank you all in advance for honest answers and no flaming. Take care and stay safe.

Steve-O
04-11-2005, 04:59 PM
I don't know the exact situation beyond what you say. Still, it does not sound as if you are good friends with any of the involved parties.

If I am reading that correct, I would have done nothing in the original situation. When someone gets involved many times two people who are ready to snap on each other can easily both snap on the third. This doesn't usually end well.

Now to steal shamelessly from the advice I have seen Mitch give many times, I would basically be a good witness. I don't know exactly what happened, just what I thought I saw. If they fight they fight. if the other guy goes and stabs the other fellow, he does. At this point you are going to have pandemonium. I'd be much more concerned for my own safety than for some punk who likes to run his mouth. If the guy with the knife came at me it would be on, but otherwise, I am not going to thrust myself into a now lethal force encounter that I am still not sure of what exactly is happening. If it is exactly like you said, it is terribly unfortunate. Still, bozo #1 forgot the rule about if it ain't worth dyin' over it ain't worth fightin' over.

Take this as you will, as i was in a good number of scraps in my highschool days and did, in fact, enjoy it. now older and slightly more mature that is my take on it.

chevy01234
04-11-2005, 05:09 PM
Thanks for the quick response, like I said I'm asking for advice, and advice isnt always sugar coated and I know that. I am friends with the girl whose house we were at and she wanted it stopped. That is the only reason I really said anything at all. I do have good people skills and can usually talk to people without getting too involved.I agree with you that I shouldnt put myself in that situation and in the future I will try my best not too. I guess it just made me think when he said he had the knife and contemplated using it, a knife wasnt even thought of while i was talking to them. Thanks again

michael
04-11-2005, 06:09 PM
The moral of this story is, "don't go stupid places with stupid people to do stupid things." Most situations can be avoided if you are careful about where you go.

Treyarch
04-11-2005, 06:23 PM
Couple things to ponder. A guy that tells you he was going to stab someone and then shows you his knife is a West Side Story knife fighter. Had he pulled it on you, you could have begged a little and retreated while he taunted you verbally. (BTDT)

Just because he showed the knife to someone at a later date does not mean that he is a West Side Story knifer. In fact, it sounds like that guy with the knife had enough brains to not use a weapon even though he dearly wanted to.

(I've had the same thoughts myself and it was the fear of paperwork which stayed my hand...)

You don't know what is going on in his head.

How do you know that this guy isn't capible of making a binary choice about violence and then acting on it without warning and with brutal ferocity...but in this case he merely decided that although he wanted to stab the guy, it was not worth it?

What you said is a dangerous, dangerous assumption.

Yeah, showing anyone your weapon out in public, even in this case isn't exactly smart, but since when do you have to be smart to decide "Kill", then grab someone, spin them around and push them into something as you control them and pounds the victim's kidneys with a knife like a Quarterback does his favorite Cheerleader?

By the way, I just described a textbook attack from "Put them down and take them out", a book written to inform people of what a prison style knife attack is like.

Simple. Brutal. Fast. Vicious.

You don't need to be smart to do that.

Making an assumption that someone is a west side story knifer because of something he did AFTER the encounter isn't exactly what I would call smart either.

MTS
04-11-2005, 06:35 PM
chevy01234,

You really need to find new friends. Sooner or later your mouthy friend will get something started and possibly get you sucked into the middle of it.

I appreciate you trying to help out the lady but it was her house and her invited guests and I don't think she was paying you to be a bouncer.

If the knife had come out and been used the "knife fight" would have been over before you could decide what to do.

If the knife had come out as part of a "posturing" and you went and grabbed a baton that could have escalted the situation.

You admit to having no baton training and talked about
I believe I would hit him in the head as hard as I could and pray I knock him out ( based on him focusing on the other guy and me giving him a very, very, hard and cheap shot to the ear or chin)" yet you were going to use a baton from a company that advises that head strikes are to used only as a last resort. If you get to carried away and maim or kill the guy how is that going to sound in court?

Or you grab the firearm. How did you aquire it as you are under 21 and cannot legally purchase a pistol? Is it legal for you to have it loaded in your vehicle in your jurisdiciton?

Had you been drinking at all? If so it will be questioned if your judgement was impaired.

You will say that you were defending your friend. OK, you also said that your friend started the altercation so who is really the aggressor here? If it is your friend why are you helping him?

You really need to stop and think about the consiquenses of getting involved in third party disputes.

chevy01234
04-11-2005, 06:48 PM
The moral of this story is, "don't go stupid places with stupid people to do stupid things." Most situations can be avoided if you are careful about where you go.

Im sorry but I do not agree with you on this. Dont go stupid places with stupid people to do stupid things is the exact opposite of why we went to that party. The two people I drove to that party had nothing to do with it, one being a young lady and the other a buddy of mine who left with someone else shortly after we arrived. Yes I could never again leave the confines of my house but then they would win wouldnt they? I went to a party to enjoy myself and see friends, not to be a hard ass like those guys.. Again I know that I asked for advice and there is a thin line between criticism and advice. But please before you jump on me, think about it and possibly reread the original post. Thank you again and yall stay safe.

Geezer
04-11-2005, 06:54 PM
Memnoch, I have deleted my post.

God bless and y'all be mindful out there.

chevy01234
04-11-2005, 07:01 PM
Mr. Swain,
Please re-read my post. I think you will find answers to your own questions there. here are a few

"I drove some friends to a party (I'm not a big drinker so I usually volunteer to DD)" you asked if I was drinking.

" but if he went to stabbing the guy before I had the baton I believe I would hit him in the head as hard as I could and pray I knock him out ( based on him focusing on the other guy and me giving him a very, very, hard and cheap shot to the ear or chin)" you mentioned me striking him in the head with the baton, not my intentions.

As for the firearm, My father purchased it for me for my graduation and in Mississippi you can have a concealed firearm in your vehicle, home, or business with no permit over the age of 18. It is a legal gun, I do not carry it on my person only in my vehicle which is legal.

Thank you again for pointing out those things, I just dont think you read it carefully, I understand you are a busy man and I appreciate you taking the time to answer me.

FBI_dude33
04-11-2005, 07:01 PM
Swain speaks a very strong point:

you were not paid to be a bouncer but she probably doesnt want dead bodies all over her house

as a military official (pardon the name) you need training with any weapon, particularily batons, clubs, and guns.

if you WERE drunk, touch no weapon, as you are immediately percieved as an intoxicated armed adult, in court and out.


last of all

it doesnt matter what YOU think it matter's what the jury thinks.

Treyarch
04-11-2005, 07:04 PM
Im sorry but I do not agree with you on this. Dont go stupid places with stupid people to do stupid things is the exact opposite of why we went to that party. The two people I drove to that party had nothing to do with it, one being a young lady and the other a buddy of mine who left with someone else shortly after we arrived. Yes I could never again leave the confines of my house but then they would win wouldnt they? I went to a party to enjoy myself and see friends, not to be a hard ass like those guys.. Again I know that I asked for advice and there is a thin line between criticism and advice. But please before you jump on me, think about it and possibly reread the original post. Thank you again and yall stay safe.

Don't take this the wrong way, but you are going to bring these situation on yourself if you have the attitude "Dont go stupid places with stupid people to do stupid things is the exact opposite of why we went to that party."

Know what you are getting into.

OK, fine, you want to party. Well, self defense is primarily about behavior modification.

How good of a friend was this guy that you would risk injury over?

If you insist on going out and partying, have a serious talk with everyone you go with that goes something like this:

"Guys, after the last time with X almost getting stabbed, and me almost getting stabbed because I was trying to break up a fight, here are the rules for me being the DD: You will not start sh== at this party. You will not try to break up sh== at this party. We are going to this party to get buzzed and laid, not to get cut up, got it?

If any of you start sh== with someone, I will not REPEAT NOT back you up, nor will I do anything to stop them from kicking in your skull.

I am the driver, not your bodyguard, so do not expect me to pull kung fu out of my @$$ to save you when you mouth off to the wrong person.

I am going to see if I can hook up with those sisters we talked with last weekend, not to pull a thug off of any of you.

If you have a problem with this, you are not riding with me."

You will be partying, because you obviously do not want to give it up, but can you lay down some rules and stick with them so that your friends do not expect you to be the one who saves the day when they mouth off to the wrong person and suddenly find themself in deep do-do?

chevy01234
04-11-2005, 07:06 PM
Since people do not understand what a DD is , it is a Designated Driver, I do not drink, I drive. I hope that clears it up.

FBI_dude33
04-11-2005, 07:10 PM
but being a growing adult, ethanol (the stuff in alchohol that makes you drunk) is incredibly addictive, and not drinking at a PARTY must be mentally exhausting

please excuse the daddy $#!t

chevy01234
04-11-2005, 07:10 PM
Memnoch, Thank you that was a good idea, I do not wish to be thought of as a drunk kid out looking to use self defense as an excuse to beat the living hell out of someone. I was just wondering what i did wrong, and I have learned alot. I appreciate the posts and thank you guys and possibly girls for sharing your knowledge with a new guy.

FBI_dude33
04-11-2005, 07:12 PM
much welcome, chevy,
don't drink, don't kill people, be a good friend

chevy01234
04-11-2005, 07:14 PM
but being a growing adult, ethanol (the stuff in alchohol that makes you drunk) is incredibly addictive, and not drinking at a PARTY must be mentally exhausting

please excuse the daddy $#!t

Thanks for the concern but I chose a long time ago not to drink at these parties, and people I hang out with know this and I always have my water or powerade so there is not any pressure on me to drink just to have something in my hand. I dont think me not drinking makes me tired but i think it actually makes me more aware because im not under the influence of anything.

Treyarch
04-11-2005, 07:15 PM
The hardest part of my advice is the day after someone doesn't think you are serious, starts trouble thinking "My pal with the 10mm will back me up, yo!!" and he gets stomped, and your friends look at you and say "Why didn't you do something to help him??"

If they can't understand that you are NOT the bodyguard and you will NOT risk your freedom, criminal record, money and hide for them over drunken stupidity, then ask yourself...why are you letting them put you in a dangerous position.

FBI_dude33
04-11-2005, 07:16 PM
now that, chevy, is the attitude of a Warrior.

chevy01234
04-11-2005, 07:19 PM
The hardest part of my advice is the day after someone doesn't think you are serious, starts trouble thinking "My pal with the 10mm will back me up, yo!!" and he gets stomped, and your friends look at you and say "Why didn't you do something to help him??"

If they can't understand that you are NOT the bodyguard and you will NOT risk your freedom, criminal record, money and hide for them over drunken stupidity, then ask yourself...why are you letting them put you in a dangerous position.

Very good point, One thing I know that friends dont know is there is a gun in my truck, They know I shoot but not there is one in my truck, Concealed means Concealed. Im not one who thinks i am empowered because I have a pistol.

chevy01234
04-11-2005, 07:21 PM
now that, chevy, is the attitude of a Warrior.

Thank you FBI_dude33, and Thank you for serving our wonderful country. Stay Safe and God Bless you and your guys and gals on the ship.

FBI_dude33
04-11-2005, 07:22 PM
Exactly! because you know your not going to use it in only the most dire situations, but your dumb@$$ friend is like "wasup' yo's? my dawg got a glock! he gonna bust yo @$$ if yo dont do us a favor!

those kinda friends are on of the worst ones, i know from experiences.

Steve-O
04-11-2005, 07:28 PM
Something I just thought of. Is the gun in your vehicle secure? Meaning, you are driving around several drunk individuals. If someone happened to be expploring as drunk folks are sometimes known to do, and they find the gun, would they have full access to its use? Something perhaps to think about.

Also a post for you and any others as I face a similar dilemma, how do you deal with leaving a loaded firearm unattended in your vehicle?

chevy01234
04-11-2005, 07:34 PM
I have a small safe under my back seat that is where I keep my "insurance and cd player faceplate" at least thats what they think.It has a key pad as well as key locking mechanism. When on road trips or by myself it is in the glove box. I do not leave people in my truck while I am not in there. I dont like people being able to go through my stuff like you mentioned. Good question though.

MTS
04-11-2005, 07:42 PM
Mr. Swain,
Please re-read my post. I think you will find answers to your own questions there. here are a few

"I drove some friends to a party (I'm not a big drinker so I usually volunteer to DD)" you asked if I was drinking.

I did read your post but I was just making sure of your condition.


" but if he went to stabbing the guy before I had the baton I believe I would hit him in the head as hard as I could and pray I knock him out ( based on him focusing on the other guy and me giving him a very, very, hard and cheap shot to the ear or chin)" you mentioned me striking him in the head with the baton, not my intentions.

I was not speaking of intentions but outcome.


As for the firearm, My father purchased it for me for my graduation and in Mississippi you can have a concealed firearm in your vehicle, home, or business with no permit over the age of 18. It is a legal gun, I do not carry it on my person only in my vehicle which is legal.

OK, I was just checking as laws vary from jurisdicition to jurisdiction.


Thank you again for pointing out those things, I just dont think you read it carefully, I understand you are a busy man and I appreciate you taking the time to answer me.

No, I did and had some questions that you did answer, thank you.

chevy01234
04-11-2005, 07:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by chevy01234
" but if he went to stabbing the guy before I had the baton I believe I would hit him in the head as hard as I could and pray I knock him out ( based on him focusing on the other guy and me giving him a very, very, hard and cheap shot to the ear or chin)" you mentioned me striking him in the head with the baton, not my intentions.


Mark Swain
"I was not speaking of intentions but outcome."

I dont quite understand this, I stated that if he went to stabbing the guy BEFORE I HAD THE BATON, I believe I would have hit him in the head as hard as i could. The outcome would be I punched him in the chin or ear not hit him with the baton, Just wanted to clear this up. Thanks again and Stay Safe.

Lou Costello
04-12-2005, 06:16 AM
I might help out an INNOCENT person but this mouthy guy sounds like he was digging his own grave. Maybe someday he will succeed.

Lots of young male testesterone flying around in that situation. Lots of potentially fatal stupidity too.

I would not have interferred in this altercation. Most likely I would have taken bets on who would be the winner.

Sometimes guys have to accept responsibility for getting themselves killed.