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gary thornbury
12-06-2003, 04:32 PM
Which is better in a carry pistol, single or double action? What do you carry?

sponge
12-06-2003, 05:30 PM
Single action is easier to use and also more suitible for target shoots. A single action does both. The revolver has a better reason to be double action than a semi-auto. But with a semi why double action?. I am another one of those who feel that the double action is hard to use well and also found out that this is mostly typical. And yes close range but so can a single action.


I have read that the double action auto is safer but I don't know for whom it is safer. The cocked and locked system has a pretty safe record I think. But most new pistols these day's are now starting to come made without the single action hammer notch. so the trend has been: Around year 1900 to around year 1950 single-action. Then around year 1950 to Around year 2000 double action-single action. And now all new pistols are usually double-action only. I guess double is in style. Or somethin'.


Does anybody know of one pistol in current production that is designed around a small single stack frame that is single action and also has a safety that can be worked with one hand?


Like I asked on another thread, If sig took the p239 .40 or the p245 .45 and ripped out the deckocker and dropped in a spring loaded ambidextrous thumb safety catch, would it sell?

sanchezero
12-06-2003, 08:33 PM
Single action. If you're willing to spend any time and attention learning to use your pistol, single action is the way to go.

Double action is a response to litigation blaming incompetent gunhandling for accidental shootings. Or something like that.

RedDevil
12-06-2003, 09:38 PM
I don't think you can beat a single action for getting the fastest accurate first shot.

sponge
12-07-2003, 12:36 AM
When I carried a double action auto I put some thought into how to get the most from it. And it made me think again of the 4 possible ways cooper teaches to use an SA/DA. If I remember they were.

1. Just crunch throught(trigger cock)
2. Cock the hammer with the support hand.
3. Stage the trigger(trigger cock on the way up)
4. Shot cock it.

Option 1 did not work well. I either was faster and less accurate or slower and more accurate. Could only make fast accurate shots out to punching range.

Option 2 takes two hands and I also tried to cock with one hand but this caused much varience with the grip on the gun even after practice. So it still takes two hands. revolver advantage.

3. staging the trigger made the pistol fire before I had the gun on target and later found that this was easier to do with the revolver. This was too difficult to do and so I did not make it my plan.

4. This is the one I learned of from cooper and laughed out loud upon reading about it. This is to just shoot the first shot in the direction of the target and when the auto loads the next then use the single action. This was said to be sloppy technique and not only do I agree but it even seems scary.

* * * * *

Thumb cocking was the best option of those listed. But I am so averse to DA that I even considered scary option 4. If anybody else shoots the double action auto but does not do DA well then what is your system?

* * * * *

Recently the new wave of guns that cannot be thumb cocked but are also advertised as having a light trigger pull has given me the idea of a possible option #5. How safe would it be to just carry a DA/SA auto in the holster cocked? Would there be much of a differance in safety between a trigger cocking light DAO trigger gun and a conventional sig gun carried cocked in the holster?

Vig Creed
12-07-2003, 09:07 AM
Single action is usually the best combat tool for those willing to practice. Double action is "safer" for those not willing to practice (no safeties, etc., to operate before shooting).

I have been known to carry both, but am faster and more accurate with a single action (Kimber 1911).

creed

karl johnson
12-07-2003, 09:18 AM
I think that a DA auto is an abomination;)

Now that we have Glocks, XD's, and such, DA autos are truly obsolete. SA is the best answer, in my somewhat disheveled mind, but for various reasons many of us cannot use them.

That is not to say that someone required to use a DA auto is underarmed or out of luck, but the system creates a difficult trigger that takes considerable effort to master.

I have actually found that standard DAO triggers are usually better than traditional DA triggers, so between the consistency between shots and the better trigger quality that may be an even better choice. After all, an awful lot of us used to be quite happy with our revolvers.

KarlJ


Which is better in a carry pistol, single or double action? What do you carry?

Rob96
12-07-2003, 09:23 AM
My main carry is a Colt 1991A1 Gov't Model. My secondary carry gun is a Glock 19. I am more concerned with having one type trigger pull versus da/sa.

michael
12-07-2003, 12:09 PM
I agree with Karl. I have an XD-40 and would never go back to a DA/SA combo. I loved my Sig P220, but would never be able to shoot it as quickly and accurately as I can the XD. I don't really see a reason to buy one anymore.

DaveJames
12-08-2003, 12:31 AM
You don't say what kind of carry,but it should be what ever you are willing and able to practice with , I love 1911's and have carried them when I can, but that is no more due to deptartment reg's. I have grown rather found of the DAO SIG's, the 239 being the past of the batch for off duty carry for me, triggeer pull stays the same, The Glocks are a pretty good bet also, just don't like the grip angle.. Go to a good shop and handle several and see what you like

Bruce Eimer
12-08-2003, 06:20 PM
Folks,

I have never been able to get comfy carrying any of my 1911 SA or even my Browning Hi Power for concealed carry because of my discomfort with "cocked and locked" carry. The point is that you can accidentally swipe off and disengage the safety and now you are carrying a cocked pistol in your holster.

So . . .I carry a Glock mostly, followed by either one of my DA/SA Sigs (decocker only), HK USP-Compacts (safety/decocker), or a Smith Da/SA pistol (safety/decocker).

QUESTION -- Does anyone feel at a tactical disadvantage carrying any of the above quality DA/SA pistols?

At Thunder Ranch, Clint Smith reports that 45% of students bring 1911's; 45% bring Glocks and the rest bring DA/SA's.

QUESTION -- Is Glock really the most reliable pistol out there with the greatest tactical advantage in reasonably trained hands?

QUESTION -- Has anyone either come up on their own or gotten trained in a method of handling the DA to SA transition?
Because once the SA/DA SIG, HK or SW is in SA mode, its really smooth sailing (or shooting).

Bruce Eimer
Philly, PA

Morgan
12-08-2003, 06:48 PM
QUESTION -- Does anyone feel at a tactical disadvantage carrying any of the above quality DA/SA pistols?

QUESTION -- Is Glock really the most reliable pistol out there with the greatest tactical advantage in reasonably trained hands?

QUESTION -- Has anyone either come up on their own or gotten trained in a method of handling the DA to SA transition?
Because once the SA/DA SIG, HK or SW is in SA mode, its really smooth sailing (or shooting).

On and off duty I carry a USP45, cocked and locked. My department actually mandates that the decocker be disabled (ala Colt), or the safety be disabled (ala SIG). The department only recently allowed the condition one carry for HK, so I have lots of time on DA/SA transition, though I don't like it. I never felt at a disadvantage carrying hammer down, through lots of training and practice.

Glocks are good pistols, but not any better that any other quality sidearm.

See attachment for some good advice on DA/SA.

Poohgyrr
12-09-2003, 12:46 AM
Which is better in a carry pistol, single or double action? What do you carry?

Whatever I perform best with, not forgetting the rules and whatever other conditions I have to go by. Hi Powers have the grip & number of rounds per load. S&W .357 revolvers have a great trigger, a good grip, power, and accuracy. Sometimes I like a Glock for the general toughness & overall performance. J frames can hide in lots of places. The S&W 3913 is thin, flat, handy, accurate, and more concealable than a lot of pistols. A steel 5" .45 1911 can have accuracy & reliability, a great grip, and a good feeling action.

All of the above are proven, reliable, have better performance for me, and are chambered in decent handgun rounds. Quite a few other pistols are good, I just don't do nearly as well with them. That's OK, because other folks will do well with those other pistols. :D

Bruce Eimer
12-09-2003, 05:11 AM
Folks,

If you had to choose one pistol (there are no long guns available)with which to defend your life against hostile, highly trained operators intent on taking your life, which would you choose and why?

(a) Glock 17, 19, 21, 22, 23, 27, 30, or 36 ?

(b) Springfield XD-9 or XD-40 ?

(c) Smith & Wesson 3913, 5903TSW, 4006TSW, 4563TSW, or 4566TSW ?

(d) SIG P220, P226, P228, P229 (.40SW), P239 (9MM or .40SW), P245 ?

(e) HK USP Compact in 9mm, .40SW. or .45ACP ?

(f) HK USP in 9mm, .40, or .45 ?

(g) Beretta 92FS (9mm) or 96 (.40SW) ?

(h) A Para-Ordnance LDA in .45ACP ?

(i) A Springfield, Kimber, Para-Ordnance, or Colt 1911 ?

(j) A revolver ? If so, which model ?

(k) A NAA Guardian, Kel-Tec or Seecamp .32 pocket pistol ?

karl johnson
12-09-2003, 05:25 AM
I would simply release the Trunk Monkey!

He would defend me in the tradition of Cheeta, Chim-Chim, and Helena Bonham Carter as a chimp in the newest Planet of the Apes!


KarlJ



Folks,

If you had to choose one pistol (there are no long guns available)with which to defend your life against hostile, highly trained operators intent on taking your life, which would you choose and why?

sponge
12-09-2003, 07:08 AM
Well if I remember right "carlos the jackel" defended against two "elite" operators in france. And I think they said that he used A cz-52 in 7.62X25. This did seem choice for that circumstance. Such troopers would probably be vested and the 7.62 is said to have the most penetrating power of any pistol for the neccesary head shot. And that cz was a single action too.

Orive 8
12-09-2003, 07:22 AM
I have been carrying and shooting Sigs since 1989. The traditional DA/SA trigger system is in my opinion harder to master. One has to train him/herself in the use of two trigger systems. That being said, I feel that the most useful training tool in mastering this system is to dry fire at home. A good ritual of 15-20 reps in DA mode & SA mode 2-3 times a week will help you master this.

At the range, set a target (IPSC or IDPA style) at 20 feet. From a ready position, fire 10-15 reps in DA mode only. Then proceed to fire 10-15 reps in SA mode. Follow up with another 10-15 reps of two shot drills, DA to SA, decocking after every two shot pair.

Go as fast as you can while being able to maintain 90-95% of your shots in the A zone. If you are getting more hits outside of the A zone, then slow done a little to insure your hits. Consider anything out of the A zone as a miss for this practice.

These drills have helped me master the DA/SA Semi Auto. As a trainer, I agree that the Glock, Springfield XDs and other such pistols are easier to train the newer shooter with so that they can get up to speed faster. With the DA/SA system you will need to train a little harder (not necessarily a bad thing though!)

Good Luck

Bodfish
12-09-2003, 10:32 AM
Somewhat off the thread, bit I believe that a beginner who wants to become a proficient, versatile shooter should first train with a full size service revolver such as an S&W 686 or 66 firing DA only. Once they master the revolver, they can transition to an auto with relative ease, paticularly the DA/SA.

RFrier
12-09-2003, 10:42 AM
In response to Bruce's posting. If I had to pick only one handgun to fight for my life, it would be a Browning Hi-Power. Unfortunately that was not a given choice. So, therefore, I would select a S&W 586/686, 4". Always reliable, always accurate and a round that has great stopping power.

Bruce Eimer
12-09-2003, 12:47 PM
In response to Bruce's posting. If I had to pick only one handgun to fight for my life, it would be a Browning Hi-Power. Unfortunately that was not a given choice. So, therefore, I would select a S&W 586/686, 4". Always reliable, always accurate and a round that has great stopping power.

Why would you choose the Hi-Power (in 9mm I presume)?

Bruce

Anthony
12-09-2003, 04:07 PM
Why would you choose the Hi-Power (in 9mm I presume)?

Bruce

Bruce,
I would also choose a hi-power, if I didn't have a 1911 at hand !
Cocked and locked ? I've carried cocked and UNLOCKED in hi-risk situations. ( Check out a thread about AK47 safeties !)

The bottom line is the following, - the final safety is your finger. - OFF THE TRIGGER untill needed !
Maybe not for an amateur, but amateurs IMHO should not be carrying guns ! They'll get somebody hurt ! - Probably themselves !

Regards,
Anthony.

RFrier
12-10-2003, 04:21 AM
For Bruce. IMHO, the Browning Hi-Power is the consummate handgun. Ergonomics, reliability, pointability and incrediably accurate. And yes, it would be in a 9mm, although I spent 20 years in the military and love 1911A1's. In my Hi-Power, 147gr Winchester Ranger SXT is the optimal round. "She likes them."