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Dagatan
04-05-2005, 10:27 AM
Hi,
I just signed up to ask this question last night at the SDF, and then I realized everyone I wanted awnsers from came over here. Howdy, great forum.

SouthNarc,
in the powerslap thread over at SDF you mentitioned that you've knocked people out on two occasions with a Pekiti slap, can you go into more detail regarding that? Maybe where on the face or neck your slap landed, trajectory, where the other person's body was in relation to you. Thanks.

Guro Crafty,
have you seen much effectiveness of the pekiti slap during DB gatherings and will your Kali tudo DVD cover some of that material?

and For everyone else,
How do you train your slap in sparring? Do you think it can be used effectively in a self defense situation? Do you aim for a general area or do you focus on a specific target(the ear or neck)? What can I expect from a well placed slap to someones jaw or ear or torso? Can a back of the hand slap be as effective as a palm slap?
My backgrounds mostly weapons based FMA so I'm looking for a good transfer into empty hands. Thanks!

Dagatan
04-05-2005, 10:34 AM
Sorry couple more, I have(somewhere) the old lionheart abecedario de mano videos with Bill Mcgrath, and I notice he does palm strikes to the kidneys and bladder. Are these "fight enders"? What should I expect in the street if I pulled that off on someone? Are there other good targets I should consider with a palm strike, ie base of the skull, solar plexus? I notice Eric Knaus slapping to the back of someones neck in a DBMA video. Are some of these targets better with the palm as opposed to the back of the palm? Thanks!

CPerez
04-05-2005, 11:55 AM
One of the best slappers here is Coops you migh what to send him a PM. There where going to make a T-Shirt for those that survived the slaps from Coop in the WTSI that would have said "I was slapped by Coop and survived". His slapping technique I belive it came from WWII Combatives.

Cheers,
Carlos

Paco
04-05-2005, 12:27 PM
Paul Vunak used to include a stunning slap to the ear in his street self defense tapes of oh 6-8 years ago or so. His material may still include training that technique.

During one of the early UFC's before weight classes, a 200 lb fighter toppled a 350+ lb fighter that towered over him with a wide arc'd open hand slap to the giant's left ear. The big guy clearly lost his equilibrium and after hitting the mat, the smaller man finished him off raining punches in on him, breaking a bone in his hand.

Coops
04-05-2005, 01:45 PM
There where going to make a T-Shirt for those that survived the slaps from Coop in the WTSI that would have said "I was slapped by Coop and survived". His slapping technique I belive it came from WWII Combatives.


Thank you for that gracious compliment Carlos. The principles certainly do derive from Fairbairn/Sykes, simply because their research was on the mark.

Slaps are slaps are slaps. Don't get involved in the MA monikers - just slap damn hard!

Yes it works on the brachial area and the carotid AND the back of the neck, AND the face, AND around the orbit of the eye, AND on the chest AND the back, AND the top of the head...

In the IPDTA our core technique is to slap as if you were delivering a baseball, or a volleyball. But we don't hit once, we hit hard and often until the threat goes away.

The blow is indescriminate, but it can be. You can hit face, chest, arms, neck, etc...It doesn't matter. When in SNS you will try your hardest but will be unable to aim specifically at targets. That makes a slap more beneficial to the user because you can hit hard without suffering any injury to the hand.

MTS
04-05-2005, 02:07 PM
Yes it works on...AND on the chest...

+1 on the chest hit (don't know about the others, had no desire to volunteer for more:)).

So, wheres my t-shirt?:D

Will you be at WTS II? I think there is a whole group of "newbees" who are ready to be made into believers.;)

Coops
04-05-2005, 02:35 PM
Hello Mark. It's nice to speak with you. I have a little stolen time just before hitting the sack.

I would hope I will be at WTS II. Tom has told me that I'm on the staff already. If I am, I will probally have 'her who must be obeyed' along as well :) I certainly hope so because I get away from home so often these days that it would be nice to have the company of the girl I love. Don't think I'm getting soft though - she can hit hard too.If she sees that I'm not up to no good when I'm away, she won't take it out on me when I get home :D

Coops

J Marwood
04-05-2005, 03:52 PM
The way I was taught to slap by Geoff Thompson was to leave the hand trailing the line of the shoulders and hips and whip it round as the hips pass the centre line. The Senshido classes I've been to have shown it more in front of the shoulder, being pushed by the shoulder/hip line. Both seem damn effective with the upper being a little slower but more powerful and vice versa.

Any thoughts?

Dagatan - the training is done as a mix of focus mitt work and wearing headguards with enclosed faces, the same way we tend to drill punching.

Chrono
04-05-2005, 04:06 PM
I've always felt like the ear is a nice target for a slap like that although it's such a heavy blow that I bet it'll be noticed no matter where it lands. I practice slaps on the air to warm up and then on a heavy bag. I don't really use slaps when sparring though; seems it's quite easily noticed from a distance especially when the other guy is expecting an attack. I'd rather use the slap as a pre emptive strike or if a situation presents itself in which the slap would fit.
Just my $0,02.

Dagatan
04-05-2005, 05:54 PM
Wow! Great replies everyone,


Yes it works on the brachial area and the carotid AND the back of the neck, AND the face, AND around the orbit of the eye, AND on the chest AND the back, AND the top of the head...Where's the brachial area? Can you say what some of the effects of hitting those targets might be?


The blow is indescriminate, but it can be. You can hit face, chest, arms, neck, etc...It doesn't matter. When in SNS you will try your hardest but will be unable to aim specifically at targets. That makes a slap more beneficial to the user because you can hit hard without suffering any injury to the hand.SNS? Is that an acronym for fight or flight or an adrenal state? Thanks!

Dagatan
04-05-2005, 05:57 PM
.

In the IPDTA our core technique is to slap as if you were delivering a baseball, or a volleyball. But we don't hit once, we hit hard and often until the threat goes away.


This is great coaching.

MTS
04-05-2005, 07:17 PM
I would hope I will be at WTS II. Tom has told me that I'm on the staff already. If I am, I will probally have 'her who must be obeyed' along as well :) I certainly hope so because I get away from home so often these days that it would be nice to have the company of the girl I love. Don't think I'm getting soft though - she can hit hard too.If she sees that I'm not up to no good when I'm away, she won't take it out on me when I get home :D

Bring her along, some of the other guys are bringing their wives as well. If she can't make it give us her email address and we will keep her posted on how you are behaving yourself.;)

panchofreud
04-05-2005, 11:30 PM
Well, on Monday I began training w/ a gentleman I met through the VFW. We went to his basement, and I worked slap combinations on the focus mitts for about 40 minutes. The way he had me line them up was to curl the fingers (finally clicked why I was told to start tapping them on the bar, etc for a few months now), and just go for the slap. We started the session, and I was throwing more boxing-esque punches. After a bit more instruction, it came pretty easily. Connection was made initially with the lower heel of the hand, and then the fingers came around for a good, solid thwack after the fact, if you'll pardon the rhyme. Wasn't sure it was going to work quite right, then it was my turn to hold the mitts, and we compared bruises on our hands. But, a short, quick strike from the fence position, and the impact was definitely there, thrown from the hips and then the shoulder.


The Senshido classes I've been to have shown it more in front of the shoulder, being pushed by the shoulder/hip line.

I think J Marwood stated it better here. Take care all.

michael
04-06-2005, 06:23 AM
Coops, my better half is coming also, but don't let Mrs. Coops teach her how to slap. She already took Krav for a year and doesn't need any help.:eek:

Marc "Crafty Dog" Denny
04-06-2005, 06:25 AM
Woof All:

Dagatan asked me in particular:

"Guro Crafty,
have you seen much effectiveness of the Pekiti slap during DB gatherings and will your Kali Tudo (tm) DVD cover some of that material?"

GT Gaje is known for a formidable slap. Back in '88 at at summer PT camp he gave me a memorable taste and other of his students of his have told me how in the early days they would find bruise marks in the shape of his hand on their torsos.

That said, the slap is a cultivated technique in many FMA systems-- sometimes it is called "the heavy hand."

In PT for example, there is a specific method of preparing the hand that includes a lotions known as "monkey guts" (I have a couple of bottles that have been brewing for several years :cool: )

Guro Inosanto tells of Jack Santos dropping a boxing champion who was misbehaving in a gambling/whore house many decades ago. Guro I. has a frightening one of his own btw , , ,

GT Gaje introduced me to a publicity adverse master while I was training in his home in Bacolod back in '97 who had a pretty formidable "heavy hand" of his own and he had his distinctive method for cultivating it too.

As for the appearance of the slap in "Dog Brother Gatherings", I had a TKO using mine in one fight where I tried throwing an armbar from guard and my opponent was threatening to pass instead. I had a wonderfully leisureful moment to throw a slap to the back of his neck (a favorite target of mine) that had a nice wave to it that simply rocked him. I had a second one on the way, but I sensed he was done for already and was able to pull some of the force off it before it hit. Although conscious, it was some 90 seconds before my opponent felt like trying to stand.

Yet for some reason, most people just don't seem to get how great slapping can be. With some good guidance you can deliver awesome power and not risk breaking your hand on his head. Also, IMHO the risk of breaking skin (yours or his) is neglible unless you pop him in the mouth and catch a tooth. I suspect most of us would prefer not to exchange body fluids with others!

It is easier/safer to throw out of clinch because, unlike a boxing type punch, the elbow does not have to come up to be in line with the line of the strike.

Upon contact, the hand is ready to grab or do other things. For example, a slap to the temple area positions the thumb for an eye gouge. In the Philippines some practitioners cultivated a pointed thumbnail to facilitate the removal of the eye in such a moment (the pointed thumb nail also could be used as a flicking shot to the eye as well). Idiot fool that I am from time to time, when I first heard this I suspected it to be a bit of a martial art story, but then I saw an old Filipino on line in front of me one day, and there it was.

The slapping hand (a.k.a. pak sao) of Chinese trapping systems such as Wing Chun, Jun Fan, Preying Mantis can/should have a heavy quality as well. Guro Inosanto speaks of Bruce Lee's pak sao hurting quite a bit in its own right. There was a time when I explored a bit the Chinese methods of iron palm and in training saw that people were wincing at what to me seemed like easy slaps. (In that the Chinese method suggests limiting sex, my dalliance with it began during a "dry spell" and ended with its end ;) but I digress)

Even in the absence of iron palm training, good mechanics should suffice to generate good results. I suspect it helps if one has been swinging sticks a lot. When I have used the slap in friendly sparring with active cagefighters I seem to get a surprised look upon its impact , , , ,

For me, doublestick training gives the body mechanics for slaps on the forehand vertical, diagonal and horizontal and backhand horizontal planes of motion and to a lesser extent the backhand vertical and diagonal planes. Most people are unfamiliar with some of these lines of attack , , ,

And yes, the slap is shown in application in my upcoming "Kali Tudo" (tm) DVD and thank you very much for the chance to work in the plug :D I also included some brief snippets of old footage of Guro Inosanto blazing away in demo using slaps. :eek:

Woof,
Crafty Dog

Guantes
04-06-2005, 08:20 AM
Marc,
Ever notice what a hell of a time it is finding iron pellets.

Cold War Scout
04-06-2005, 09:25 AM
Coops:

I am signed up for WT II just so I can learn how to get b!tch slapped, although my ex-wife hit me so hard once I swear my nose still runs.

Marc "Crafty Dog" Denny
04-06-2005, 10:31 AM
For those looking to go into iron palm I strongly suggest:

a) a good IP brew
b) not starting with iron pellets. Rice, then beans are a better way to begin in my opinion.
c) slow progress

Guantes
04-06-2005, 11:06 AM
Sorry if it apeared that I was suggesting that as a starting point, I was not.

Kragg
04-06-2005, 12:10 PM
Marc,

As to slapping then grabbing etc. what are your thoughts on the ear box, then ear rip? Seems the hand is right there, why not grab & tear. (thats kinda catchy) You're the first person I've heard describe this technique since I quit formal training, its hard to find real S.D dojos in my area :(

Marc "Crafty Dog" Denny
04-06-2005, 01:04 PM
Guantes:

I figured you knew that already, but just wanted to offer my unsolicited advice to those thinking of going down this road.

Krag:

Absolutely! This is SOP in FMA. :D

Crafty

SouthNarc
04-06-2005, 02:58 PM
Dagatan I apologize as I didn't even realize that you had addressed a question to me with all this other drama going on.

The first time was a preemptive strike on an inmate who wouldn't go to lock-down, when I was working corrections and it caught him right on the jaw-line. It didn't knock him totally unconscious but I saw his eyes roll and he was out on his feet.

The second time was when I was a patrolman and it was a domestic violence arrestee. That one came after a little standing grapple where range broke and I immediately hit him. That one caught him a little lower...more in the neck..but he also hit his head on a kitchen cabinet. He went down and out. I'm not sure if it was my strike or the cabinet that put him to sleep.

Both of these incidents occurred in the early nineties when I was actively training Pekiti so it was just natural since that was what was in the forefront of my mind. Slapping is a great tool and besides Pekiti there are several different arts and systems that feature it and have a good way to develop the tool.

Coops' take on the subject is top-notch.

Dagatan
04-06-2005, 03:01 PM
Thanks Guro Crafty,
Whats in monkey guts, do you know? Hows it used? No problem regarding the plug, when you know some one makes a good product, naturually you want more :) . Is the footage of guro Dan blazing away the same one thats on "the grandfathers speak"? I've seen the big finger nail too, Freddie Fernandez of Arnis Defense Silat pops to mind. Cage fighters, huh? Guess you been slapping the guys over at the RAW gym, can't wait to see the footage! Thanks!

Dagatan
04-06-2005, 03:05 PM
Thanks SouthNarc, No prob about not noticing. You guys got a lot going on.

michael
04-06-2005, 03:43 PM
Kragg,

If you've ever been to a Senshido seminar on the shredder, the slap works well to open him up and rattle his cage before going into the shred, which could be eyes, ears, nose, throat, etc. Think of it as an opening/transitional movement into a more hands-on ripping/tearing of flesh.

Dagatan
04-06-2005, 04:25 PM
Hi Michael,
I was at Rich Dimitri's last seminar in CA, so I have a little familiarity with his material. Great stuff, I was very impressed. How would you enter with a slap from a "passive stance"? Seems like you would no longer be operating inside the senshido principle's of being non-telegraphic and "closest weapon to closest target". I could see it from the fence, I've read Geof Tompson's Fence book, but Geof's fence is at more of an angle than the passive stance. Seems like a open palm chin jab might be more apropriate.

todd_xxxx
04-06-2005, 04:43 PM
I trained with Rich at one shredder seminar too. The fence and the passive stance are interchangeable in my mind and I agree, for me, a straight palm hit is the quickest entrance strike for me from that stance. That being said, I've had any training in any kind of slap, except a little I did on my own after watching the "Power striking" video by Consterdine.

Mongoose
04-06-2005, 05:40 PM
Dagatan,

I learned a slap in FMA, jujitsu and savate. The application was more limited in jujitsu and savate, mostly being to the ears. If the BG closed in and got your forearm instead, good. :) Been knocked out several times with them. :eek: :D

Matthew Temkin
04-06-2005, 05:56 PM
I have been taught two excellent slapping methods.
One was by Bill McGrath and the other by Slavo and Coops.
Both are fast and powerful, but my nod goes to Coops, since his method is easier to learn.

michael
04-06-2005, 07:07 PM
Hi Michael,
I was at Rich Dimitri's last seminar in CA, so I have a little familiarity with his material. Great stuff, I was very impressed. How would you enter with a slap from a "passive stance"? Seems like you would no longer be operating inside the senshido principle's of being non-telegraphic and "closest weapon to closest target". I could see it from the fence, I've read Geof Tompson's Fence book, but Geof's fence is at more of an angle than the passive stance. Seems like a open palm chin jab might be more apropriate.

I was thinking of the slap from the fence position, and the slapping method I use is from Coops. It can be applied from any angle, so after slapping from the fence you could immediately go into the shred, if you are so inclined.

silat
04-06-2005, 08:23 PM
and For everyone else,
How do you train your slap in sparring? Do you think it can be used effectively in a self defense situation? Do you aim for a general area or do you focus on a specific target(the ear or neck)? What can I expect from a well placed slap to someones jaw or ear or torso? Can a back of the hand slap be as effective as a palm slap? My backgrounds mostly weapons based FMA so I'm looking for a good transfer into empty hands. Thanks!

Dagatan,

Silat & Kuntao uses the slap extensively both palm and backhand and I will assume it is similar to FMA slaps.

It is a highly effective technique to use in a real self-protection situation. In Silat you can slap anywhere on the body except maybe the point of the elbow or something like that but all other areas are good to go.

We practice what we call slow sparring and slap all over the body with control for technical aspects and then for training we slap trees for conditioning, heavy bags for power & water bags to simulate the human body.

When we enter we slap the arms down and then go to the head, jaw, neck or etc for incapacitation. If we are defensive first then we will slap the incoming punch, elbow, knee or kick away and then go to the body with slaps followed by elbows or whatever.

Sincerely,
Teacher: Eddie Ivester

Guantes
04-06-2005, 09:12 PM
Older LEOs and the younger ones not saddled with PC regs will attest to the zing a pair of sap gloves adds to your slap.

J Marwood
04-06-2005, 09:47 PM
I got punched by a guy wearing these once - very painful. It felt like being hit with a bat, rather than a punch.

Dagatan
04-06-2005, 11:23 PM
I was thinking of the slap from the fence position, and the slapping method I use is from Coops. It can be applied from any angle, so after slapping from the fence you could immediately go into the shred, if you are so inclined.
I like Geof's work, though the only thing I've been exposed to is the fence book I found lying around my fathers place. I'm a little wary of the fence at a 45 degree angle like shown in his book to initiate a slap, I think is a good position, but in the few scenarios I've done when I'm in a 45 degree angle as opposed to squared up in a passive stance, my partner imediately senses I'm about to go pre-emptive. Michael, wouldn't the opponents head be knocked out of shred distance with a power slap? I suppose it would depend on the angle of the slap, I havn't tried it an a resisting partner yet.

Dagatan
04-06-2005, 11:26 PM
Dagatan,

I learned a slap in FMA, jujitsu and savate. The application was more limited in jujitsu and savate, mostly being to the ears. If the BG closed in and got your forearm instead, good. :) Been knocked out several times with them. :eek: :D
Do you remember where it landed when you where knocked out? What kind of angle was it comeing in, diagonal-horizontal-vertical? Thanks.

Mongoose
04-06-2005, 11:51 PM
Do you remember where it landed when you where knocked out? What kind of angle was it comeing in, diagonal-horizontal-vertical? Thanks.

The 2 that I remember:

1) Got me in the habit of clenching my teeth. Came in horizontal, hit directly on my ear.

2) Diagonal downward into the neck/trapezius.

Dagatan
04-07-2005, 12:18 AM
The 2 that I remember:

1) Got me in the habit of clenching my teeth. Came in horizontal, hit directly on my ear.

2) Diagonal downward into the neck/trapezius.Yikes
:eek: ! Any permanent damage? How long did you feel the effects of those shots?

Mongoose
04-07-2005, 12:32 AM
Yikes
:eek: ! Any permanent damage? How long did you feel the effects of those shots?

Other than some chipped teeth, no. I was already pretty goofy, so its hard to tell if there was any brain damage. ;) :D

I was fuzzy for a while after either of them.

Coops
04-07-2005, 06:14 AM
... in the few scenarios I've done when I'm in a 45 degree angle as opposed to squared up in a passive stance, my partner imediately senses I'm about to go pre-emptive. Michael, wouldn't the opponents head be knocked out of shred distance with a power slap? I suppose it would depend on the angle of the slap, I havn't tried it an a resisting partner yet.

Hi Dagatan

The fence is not a prescribed and immobile posture. It is performed in various ways by various people. It is also a moving thing, after all if you simply stand there in one stance your ability to de-escalate the conflict will be compromised. You have to be able to flow from one posture to another and be able to hit from them all as well.

Sounds difficult but it isn't. Otherwise I couldn't do it :)

From the fence you have pictures of, simply drop in with one foot and turn the hand over as it travels towards the target, that way you can set up one of our cycling slaps (several in a burst).

I you are right handed, to hit as Peter C or Geoff T, just snap you hips to the leftand throw the open palm straight to the pace in a slapping motion.

Following a slap from either style just move in. It is possible because you are moving forwards, which is quicker than moving backwards - hit him again or shred him. Either is nice.

Coops

michael
04-07-2005, 08:16 AM
Dagatan,
Coops answered the question far better than I could have. I would add that in any situation you should use forward drive. Sure, once you begin slapping the attacker he may momentarily be moved out of shredding range, but you don't slap once or twice and assess what happened. You keep driving forward and pound him into the dirt, and once you get to the point where he is not backing up anymore or becomes stunned, you could then go into a shred if you like. Hopefully you won't need it, but it would make a good finishing move once inside.

Dagatan
04-07-2005, 11:14 AM
Sounds good, thanks guys!
Coops, "cycling slaps? Is that with the same hand other and over again or something like wing chun chain fists?

jhegener
04-07-2005, 11:56 AM
That being said, I've had any training in any kind of slap, except a little I did on my own after watching the "Power striking" video by Consterdine.

How did you like the Consterdine video? I've checked it out a couple of times online but never bought it.

I'd be interested in what you thought about both the content and his teaching style...

DAVE A
04-08-2005, 10:45 AM
How did you like the Consterdine video? I've checked it out a couple of times online but never bought it.

I'd be interested in what you thought about both the content and his teaching style...


IMHO, Pete Consterdine is one of the hardest hitters in the business and if you get the chance to view the Power series tapes/DVD's I would recommend them whole-heartedly.

I've trained using the Powerslap for about 4 years and I've seen the effects/results up close and personal (no war stories, promise :o ) but needless to say it got me out of a sticky situation. Its strength lies in the transfer of power "through" an attacker, hitting the neck/ear/side of head area and thereby affecting his CNS. This can be carried out from a casual, static "social stance." It is a one-shot KO.

I also train multiple slaps for the really close in stuff, and they too have an excellent effect on an opponent. Neither is better than the other, they are situational and should be used for whatever fits the scenario that you find yourself in.

Just my humble....

Cheers

Dave :cool:

todd_xxxx
04-08-2005, 11:07 AM
How did you like the Consterdine video? I've checked it out a couple of times online but never bought it.

I'd be interested in what you thought about both the content and his teaching style...

I wrote you a PM about this, but I liked the video. I bought it after I saw that Carl Cestari wrote a testimonial for it. I think it only works for pre-emptive strikes, but that is fine with me, pre-emptive hitting is a big part of my game. I can definitely hit much harder with that technique, and it works equally well for punches and slaps. I also liked his teaching style. He demonstrates well and explains the concept in a way that makes it easy to understand not only how it works, but why.

jhegener
04-08-2005, 11:51 AM
I bought it after I saw that Carl Cestari wrote a testimonial for it. I think it only works for pre-emptive strikes, but that is fine with me, pre-emptive hitting is a big part of my game. <...> He demonstrates well and explains the concept in a way that makes it easy to understand not only how it works, but why.

Ok, thanks for the input (you too Dave)... I guess I'll put his stuff on the short list.

Marc "Crafty Dog" Denny
04-08-2005, 12:35 PM
Catching up on a question Dagatan asked a couple of pages back:

"Whats in monkey guts, do you know? Hows it used? No problem regarding the plug, when you know some one makes a good product, naturually you want more."

Its a formula that Grand Tuhon Gaje shares with his Pekiti Tirsia students. It has ginger in it and some other things. Find yourself some PT players and ask them.

Although I am a member of the PT family, I tend to be lazy about these things and when I need some monkey guts I just ask my student and PT man Pappy Dog to brew me up a bottle.

DAVE A
04-08-2005, 01:09 PM
Ok, thanks for the input (you too Dave)... I guess I'll put his stuff on the short list.

No Problem - Don't short list it - top o' the list it mate - Pete C is one of the best (as well as being a thoroughly nice bloke) and he knows his stuff. As Geoff T. told me " he has worked the doors of Manchester (WOW :eek: ) and Bodyguarded Russian billionaires". That says something.

Cheers

Dave

J Marwood
04-08-2005, 08:31 PM
he has worked the doors of Manchester (WOW :eek: )

And at a time when the city was insane with gang violence - not a place most doormen would want to visit much less work.

Coops
04-09-2005, 01:37 AM
No Problem - Don't short list it - top o' the list it mate - Pete C is one of the best (as well as being a thoroughly nice bloke) and he knows his stuff. As Geoff T. told me " he has worked the doors of Manchester (WOW :eek: ) and Bodyguarded Russian billionaires". That says something.

I second that. Trust me, Peter hits very hard. I have been the recipient on a number of occasions. Even when you put a ether foam pad on your chest, his slaps make your head hurt and teeth rattle.

A thoroughly nice gentleman as well. The vid is really worth the money.

Coops

Coops
04-09-2005, 01:39 AM
Sounds good, thanks guys!
Coops, "cycling slaps? Is that with the same hand other and over again or something like wing chun chain fists?

Cycle the hits left right left right and don't stop. As Michael said, forward drive is important. The continous pressure tends to destroy any defence.

Coops

ipdta
04-09-2005, 02:42 PM
Those of you who would be interested in downloading filmed sequencess from our courses just let me know.

I will put a page on ipdta website where you will be able to download a few sequencess with slaps.

Contact me of forum at ipdta@ipdta.com and mention slaps.

Take care

Slavo

ipdta
04-10-2005, 02:41 AM
For those interested in slaps. Please visit the following page:

http://hem.passagen.se/sifu1/nervous.htm

This page includes a few downloads from our courses. None of the hits is done with full power. Also those are done as single hits.
You should do multiple hits, with full power to different sensitive AREAS, not pressure points.

Of course those of you interested in more of that kind of tests we have it on dvd / including test with people wering different kind of helmets /.

Take care

Slavo
Chief Instructor IPDTA

kenpotex
04-10-2005, 03:10 AM
Interesting stuff, thanks for posting that link

ipdta
04-10-2005, 03:54 AM
I forgot one important thing.

People usualy are asking about how to do it, putting to much attention to the angle of the hand, what part should make a contact etc...

The methodology we / IPDTA / is using in teaching those methods is simple:

" Hit with maximum power and multiple strikes until they are down "
Sometimes just one hit is enough, sometimes not.

So get used to do multiple hits / 6 -10 /.

Attention here: those are not done to just make some distraction to get " heavy artillery ".

Each of the hits should be a KO hit. So basicly you are trying to do 6 - 10 KO hits.

You never know if in real situation your hits will be KO / because of stress, fear etc.../

Take care

Slavo

Shdwdncr
04-10-2005, 05:07 AM
Iíve been following this thread with great interest lately, for I had never thought about slapping as a powerful tool in a H2H format. Granted, we all know the benefits of a well-placed slap to an opponentís ear, as his equilibrium will be affected, giving us the opportunity to attack in a more devastating manner and end the fight quickly.
But in this thread, and in the videos posted above, thereís discussion of chest and back slapping, and I cannot really see the effectiveness of it, except for giving the opponent some pain, and in an adrenaline-fueled state that pain may just serve to piss him off more rather than having an stoppage effect.
I guess my question is: why is slapping more effective than regular open-hand strikes/techniques? Why would you slap someone in the side of the neck, versus giving them a good karate chop, which will definitely bring them to their knees? Why slap them in the chest or back when there are countless other choices of hits?
Perhaps my questions seem naÔve, but unfortunately Iíve never trained in power slapping and without any practical experience (or even exposure) to this method I cannot really say that Iíd trust its effectiveness in a real world situation.

ipdta
04-10-2005, 05:41 AM
Sorry for mentioning it again but the included information is not mentioned to say the slap is better than the any other kind of open hand hit.

It is used to minimise the visible damage to the agressor.

As a serious teachers of SD we have to mention about this aspect to those who risk their jobs / careers on the line of duty. Also for the others. The less visible damage the less payment, the less problems in the court.

The information on the page is included just to show how sensitive our body is and how easy it will be to affect it during physical contact.

Included are sequences of single hits to differnt parts of the body to show how it would affect you if hit like that to this specific body part.

We should of course understand that some parts / areas of the body are more sensitive than others.

Few of us / including myself / used those methods in the line of duty and not to piss the people off but to save our lifes.

Also I have to mention that the most of my own conflict situation on and off duty are solved without any kind of use of force.

CPerez
04-10-2005, 05:49 AM
you can ask Mark about the slap he got on the chest on the last WTS and he will tel you that he saw light flash in his eyes when he was slaped, in fact after he discribed the effects nobody in the group wanted to give it a try. It is just another tool in the toolbox to have and as ipdta said this is a good option for cops and security personel who might face legal action from their agressors. I personaly for the chest prefer a hammer punch as whel as for the back but I will be integrating the slaps to the head, neck and legs in to my training rutine.

Thanks for the info and videos ipdta they are a very good way to show some of the effects of the slaps and the article was also vey interesting.

ipdta
04-10-2005, 06:01 AM
Everything in a conflict situation is a decision making.

Slapping chest is probably not so effective mostly because here in Sweden it is quite cold for the most of the year and people usually wear som kind of jacket.

The head is one of the most sensitive parts of our body. People do not have to choose any specific spot on it.

Personly I would almost try to get that target.

The head is most often not protected.

Also I have been involved in a few tests / also filmed by us / using different kind of helmets.

Those hits also resulting in almost KO with me not being able to pull the trigger after open hand hit.

Shdwdncr
04-10-2005, 06:04 AM
It is just another tool in the toolbox to have

Well gentlemen, thanks for the clarification. I for one am always looking for new tools to add to my arsenal, and the more I think about it, the more I think that I might give this training a try, if anything just to learn something new.

ipdta
04-10-2005, 06:06 AM
you can ask Mark about the slap he got on the chest on the last WTS and he will tel you that he saw light flash in his eyes when he was slaped, in fact after he discribed the effects nobody in the group wanted to give it a try. It is just another tool in the toolbox to have and as ipdta said this is a good option for cops and security personel who might face legal action from their agressors. I personaly for the chest prefer a hammer punch as whel as for the back but I will be integrating the slaps to the head, neck and legs in to my training rutine.

Thanks for the info and videos ipdta they are a very good way to show some of the effects of the slaps and the article was also vey interesting.

Thanks for your kind words. I appreciate all of those who get some kind of understanding for our "scientific way" of trainng.

:)

Geezer
04-10-2005, 08:01 AM
IPDTA, thank you very much for the clips. I understand that someone from WTSI has been playing clip #5 over and over again, non stop, chortling all the while.

On another thread there was discussion of what happens when theory (or preconception) collides with reality. I thought this slapping business was pretty silly, after all, that's what girls do! At WTSI, my partner gave me a light slap to the right side of my chest. We immediately stopped my participation in the rest of the course. It was quite clear that a solid slap to the left side of my chest would have resulted in a 911 call.

Some research has indicated that there is no combination of padding/protectors, etcetera, that would enable me to stand up to chest slaps. Nothing.

To reinforce that bit of learning, I watched all of these clips several times, (except #5, I can't stand to see a friend in pain.) This is a classic case of the collision of theory/preconceptions with reality. No matter what I might have thought before, the experience, watching others in the course at WTSI and the video clips contradict everything I had believed before about slaps as a weapon. Now I get to revise my understanding, incorporate the new material and go on, or I get to deny it, find some argument to defend my preconception, and stay right where I was before reality intruded on my world.

For me, all of this was an "aha!" I would really enjoy a scientific explanation for the astounding effectiveness of the slaps from someone well-educated in physiology, but for now the direct observable physical evidence will suffice.

A little lagnaippe, I have pretty bad arthritis in my hands. Unlike any other blow delivered with the hands, I can slap all day long without much pain. My only regret is that I wish I had known about this some 60-odd years ago.

God bless and y'all be mindful out there.

BWayne
04-10-2005, 10:53 AM
Thanks for your kind words. I appreciate all of those who get some kind of understanding for our "scientific way" of trainng.

:)

Thank you for posting those clips. :)

Marc "Crafty Dog" Denny
04-10-2005, 12:01 PM
Slavo:

A hearty howl to you-- you have a touch of the Dog Brother to you!

Question: What do you perceive as the health risks of slapping people in the head or organs in the body in this type of testing?

For example, when Guro Inosanto demonstrates the various 1" punches on me, we use a phone book and place it over my upper outer chest so that his (quite frightening) power does not project near my heart.

Woof,
Crafty Dog

Coops
04-10-2005, 12:09 PM
Hi Marc

It isn't a matter of always training that way. We show students how nasty it could be and show them a way of retalliating, full power. After that we can train in a more controlled way - my group train every Thursday with no loss of life :~)

The important thing is that students KNOW the power of striking with an open palm. After that, you are talking to an audience who understand.
Martin

Cold War Scout
04-10-2005, 12:40 PM
Pretty darn fascinating....

Marc "Crafty Dog" Denny
04-10-2005, 12:43 PM
Understood and agreed absolutely. We too don't do our stickfighting thing at full tilt all the time and yes it is more effective to teach people who have experienced what they are learning to be able to do to others. :D

We are both big believers in slaps being capable of quite devastating power. Delicate worry wort that I am, my concern is that that some people have "weak links" in their health , , , :eek:

ipdta
04-10-2005, 12:55 PM
Slavo:

A hearty howl to you-- you have a touch of the Dog Brother to you!

Question: What do you perceive as the health risks of slapping people in the head or organs in the body in this type of testing?

For example, when Guro Inosanto demonstrates the various 1" punches on me, we use a phone book and place it over my upper outer chest so that his (quite frightening) power does not project near my heart.

Woof,
Crafty Dog

First :

Thank You very much for changing my way of doing baton training / short stick.
Your ideas gave me a lot inspiration in changing the way I teach officers.

Regarding the health aspects of slapping:

such a powerful way of conatct is not good for the body.
Also an open hand maximum ower slap will shock the body.
Most of MA people are used to hard / very hard kind of contact.

But a slap affects the body in very different way. It feels almost like jumping directly to a very cold water or like a burning sensation.
And most important it is not based on pain.
Shock is the right word.

As Coops mentions we very seldom do our training that way. Usually once hit that way the most people will understand. Once felt you will not ask stupid questions. This part is a standard for IPDTA instructor training program.

The most of the training is done with hits to the pads, bags, dummies and in scenario exercises with protective equipment
/Redman, Monadnock or similar/.
One of the sequences includes part of such a training.

A telephone book is one of such a good protective tools.

And as I mentioned earlier we trying to do it one time with enough power to understand but not so much you will KO your training partner.

It would take to long time to teach / to long workouts, to many training partners /.

We are trying to convince people from LE, military and civilian community that kind of contact will make it possible to minimise the visible damage. But it is a very hard work in the world of the closed fist.

Take care

Slavo

michael
04-10-2005, 07:57 PM
Poor Martin! That looked like it hurt........:D

MTS
04-10-2005, 09:09 PM
Poor Martin! That looked like it hurt........:D

Yeah, watching that video (#6) gave me a flashback to WTS I when I asked Martin to demo on me. Although I don't think he hit me quite that hard (Thanks Martin:)).

It has to be experianced first hand for one to really understand what it is and how it works.

RES
04-10-2005, 11:12 PM
Question: What do you perceive as the health risks of slapping people in the head or organs in the body in this type of testing?

I've been watching this thread (without much to contribute, myself), but here's one I can answer pretty easily:

Very likely, little health risk, if you're talking about the likelyhood of 'dementia pugilistica' setting in.

Coming from the perspective of aikido (where, despite good falling skills, we frequently land, hard, on our heads/necks/shoulders, sometimes to the point of 'blackout'), I've not known of anyone who has developed brain injuries over time from these sorts of contact.

Arthritis, on the other hand, is extremely common if not remedied through bodywork, massage, etc.

Guantes
04-10-2005, 11:33 PM
RES,

What do you think of the possibilities of PTD from a single strike without pads as opposed to DP?

RES
04-10-2005, 11:41 PM
RES,

What do you think of the possibilities of PTD from a single strike without pads as opposed to DP?

PTD, as in "permanent total disability"? Very little chance, unless the participants were actually trying to disable one another, every day, over an extended period of time.

A single strike? You'd have to be hit by the master, after he discovered you'd gotten his daughter pregnant! :eek:

Guantes
04-10-2005, 11:45 PM
Post Tramatic Dementia. Similar to DP but can be caused by one impact. I was thinking of some training who might get overzealous.

RES
04-10-2005, 11:56 PM
Post Tramatic Dementia.

AAAhhh gotcha.

Reference my latter statement in the previous reply.

Guantes
04-10-2005, 11:58 PM
LOL Thanks, Goodnight.

michael
04-11-2005, 07:19 AM
It has to be experianced first hand for one to really understand what it is and how it works.

It is truely impressive the amount of power it generates. I had always thought of it as more of an attention-getter or a distraction until Coops class, which opened up a whole new world of possibilities. And to think that soon Coops will get to slap people for a living.........:D

Geezer
04-11-2005, 07:46 AM
I have been thinking a lot about this, and I have a supposition.

We all know that a blow to the body that is small, can go unnoticed. I knew a fellow that was shot in the calf through and through, and didn't know it until he got home and when taking off his shoes discovered one filled with blood.

In the case of the slap, the area of impact is quite large and has a relatively large number of nerve endings. Everyone of those endings must report to HQ that it has been attacked. All of the reports are coming in at the same time, and all of them must go through the switchboard (the pons medulla) at the same time.

What I think is happening is that the switchboard gets swamped, and panics (it is a petty primitive piece of equipment) and sounds the alarm appropriate for a full scale attack. Thus the reaction, while absolutely real, is wildly out of proportion to the actual stimulus.

This is just a guess, of course, based upon ignorance and the engineer's compulsive need for a science-based answer. I am hoping that some of the forum members who have a decent education in this field will contribute.

The good news is that if this is true, that means that most of the time you can probably slap someone unconcious, if you like, without doing any permanent damage except to their overvaunted self esteem.

What remains to be determined is that if you have experienced this reaction many times, is there any possibility that the memory can override the more primitive response of the pons medulla and allow you to carry on without the disprortionate response that we see in the videos? There is some evidence from other quarters that this may indeed be the case. The mind leaps forward to a visual of cons in the yard slapping each other silly until this point has been reached.

God bless and y'all be mindful out there.

todd_xxxx
04-11-2005, 08:58 AM
I love when he slaps that guy on the eye :)

michael
04-11-2005, 09:14 AM
Geezer, from what I've seen on the street and experienced in training, I think you're exactly right. The sheer size of the area that is impacted tends to overwhelm the system and creates the shock effect. I also know that from my own training, the more pain you endure in training or even in real fights, the more resistant you become to it. I think you're spot-on in your observations.

Judo_Ed
04-11-2005, 11:53 AM
After watching the clips of the demos, I am glad that I am not the demostration model. Yikes!

Not a slam, because I really am curious; why are power slaps not used more often in MMA competitions? Are they not allowed?

Ed

Coops
04-11-2005, 12:25 PM
To reinforce that bit of learning, I watched all of these clips several times, (except #5, I can't stand to see a friend in pain.) This is a classic case of the collision of theory/preconceptions with reality. No matter what I might have thought before, the experience, watching others in the course at WTSI and the video clips contradict everything I had believed before about slaps as a weapon. Now I get to revise my understanding, incorporate the new material and go on, or I get to deny it, find some argument to defend my preconception, and stay right where I was before reality intruded on my world.

For me, all of this was an "aha!" I would really enjoy a scientific explanation for the astounding effectiveness of the slaps from someone well-educated in physiology, but for now the direct observable physical evidence will suffice.

A little lagnaippe, I have pretty bad arthritis in my hands. Unlike any other blow delivered with the hands, I can slap all day long without much pain. My only regret is that I wish I had known about this some 60-odd years ago.

God bless and y'all be mindful out there.

Geezer - you are one smart guy. I like your analogy of denial or accepting new information.

A physiological explanation to the effect of a slap: I know that a slap can have some weight behind it, but the blow is simply hitting the effector nerves within our dermis/epidermis. An open hand makes contact with so many nerve endings that the information exchange to the central nervous system is massive. Compare this to your computer, too much info hitting the CNS makes it shut down in order to re-boot because it cannot cope with the information exchange.

Thus you have a good ten seconds of time to act. If it were an arrest & restraint moment, you would move in to control. If it was a SD moment you would escape.

A punch does not activate enough nerve endings, so has to rely on the brain shake which has left some boxers paraplegic. Also, a punch is a skill which takes time to hone.

The end of a boxers match is winning or losing on points, or a knock out, even if the opponent ends up in a wheelchair. The end of our fight might be several years down the line, when we are found 'not guilty' AND have not been sued.

Oh and Geezer, I'm glad that your artheritis allows you to hit in our way. Mine is coming on as years march on. You prove the validity of our methods.

Coops

todd_xxxx
04-11-2005, 01:38 PM
Is there anyone in the states that has trained with your group? I would like to experience it first-hand, as well as seeing how you chain strikes together.

ipdta
04-11-2005, 01:42 PM
Is there anyone in the states that has trained with your group? I would like to experience it first-hand, as well as seeing how you chain strikes together.

We have our representative in Chicago. Please visit our site

www.ipdta.com

Or contact me of forum. Where are you located ?

Take care

Slavo

michael
04-11-2005, 01:43 PM
Is there anyone in the states that has trained with your group? I would like to experience it first-hand, as well as seeing how you chain strikes together.

Todd, he trained a bunch of us in it at WTS in Jan. I'm sure he'll be back for b**** slappin' redux in '06 if you can make it.

todd_xxxx
04-11-2005, 01:50 PM
I would love to be there, but not sure if I can swing it. I'm in Phoenix, AZ.

DaveJames
04-11-2005, 05:44 PM
Thanks very much for the video clips ,have been following the thread,with great intrest.

Geez,Coops, the slaping almost looks like what is taught in the Russian system.

Geez, your point about the area covered,makes sense, but I wonder if it also has to do with the compression of air as the hand /palm strikes its target,ie a cupped palm vs an open palm

Ted T.
04-12-2005, 07:30 AM
Not a slam, because I really am curious; why are power slaps not used more often in MMA competitions? Are they not allowed?

Ed


Watch Bas Reuten's fights again - lots of slaps.

I saw at least one ko by slap from him, a lunging in drop step slap that straightend the guy out and over he went.

Coops
04-12-2005, 12:53 PM
I agree with Ted. Bas Rutten certainly markets our product well :)

Todd - Rick Sjodin is a cop in the Illinois area. Have a look on the IPDTA site.He is an approachable guy who would be happy to help, evern if it meant slapping you :D

Hmm, Arizona. I wonder if I could get there next time I'm over...

Hey Michael, I've been told by one of Toms instructors, Mike Glancy, that I better not come unless I stay at his house AND bring my wife. So you guys better look out - she's the reason I train so hard.

Dave - look back prior to the Marquis of Queensbury. Certainly in Europe we used any method to quell the fight. All the methods taught today were prevelent then; slaps, forearm strikes, knees, axe hands and chin jabs. All wre valid boxing techniques. It came from Russia or it went to Russia. We all fight the same way and always have done.

Sorry Dave. I bet you know that already, yeah??

todd_xxxx
04-12-2005, 01:26 PM
Todd - Rick Sjodin is a cop in the Illinois area. Have a look on the IPDTA site.He is an approachable guy who would be happy to help, evern if it meant slapping you :D

He would have to slap me. I never believe anything works until someone proves it to me :)

Coops
04-12-2005, 01:42 PM
He would have to slap me. I never believe anything works until someone proves it to me :)

I understand your view Todd. I would like to get you on our side, so maybe we should look at a training course over your way. It is important to have proof of a method. Otherwise you cannot use it with honesty.

Coops

todd_xxxx
04-12-2005, 02:16 PM
It would be great if you guys offfered something close to here. My family is in WI, not far from Chicago, so maybe I can get together with the guy you trained some day while I'm there on a visit.

MTS
04-12-2005, 02:53 PM
He would have to slap me. I never believe anything works until someone proves it to me :)

One slap properly applied will make you a believer, trust me.;)

todd_xxxx
04-12-2005, 02:58 PM
One slap properly applied will make you a believer, trust me.;)

I know what you're saying, but like I posted in the other thread, I'm unfortunately one of those guys that has to pee on the electric fence himself :) I don't really want to be slapped in the eye like on that video though......

MTS
04-12-2005, 03:05 PM
I know what you're saying, but like I posted in the other thread, I'm unfortunately one of those guys that has to pee on the electric fence himself :) I don't really want to be slapped in the eye like on that video though......

Niether do I. Coop gave me a chest slap like he does in #6 (in the same location) but with a little less force (he said it was about 50%).

I did not go down but JJ1 was with me and he said that my eyes went blank for a second or two.

I felt it go up into my neck and down to my knees and my legs buckled. I bent over and was very stunned (as in not being able to want or do anything) for a good 10-15 seconds or so.

However after a few minutes it all had worn off. I had a small red mark on my chest but no brusing.

todd_xxxx
04-12-2005, 03:42 PM
Gee, that sounds like a blast :) I take it you've incorporated the slap into your arsenal?

7677
04-12-2005, 03:56 PM
Todd,
Trust me it works as advertised. Don't confuse a girls slap with how the slaps in the video work. Once you know the secret you'll never go back to using your fist.

todd_xxxx
04-12-2005, 03:58 PM
Am I mistaken or are you going to be in Tucson for a seminar with Matt soon? I have been in touch with him about training while he is here, maybe you can slap me :)

7677
04-12-2005, 04:11 PM
Todd,
Yes I'll be in Tucson with Matt and Robin. However, I honestly think you want Matt to do the slapping instead of me.

Slavo and Coops,
Those videos are great.

todd_xxxx
04-12-2005, 04:37 PM
Maybe you can just train me in how to do it then :)

michael
04-12-2005, 04:50 PM
[QUOTE=Coops]
Hey Michael, I've been told by one of Toms instructors, Mike Glancy, that I better not come unless I stay at his house AND bring my wife. So you guys better look out - she's the reason I train so hard.

QUOTE]

Maritn, if she comes with you maybe we could send her down to Beale St so that she can slap all the scumbags off the corners and make it safe for us to eat some good barbeque and ribs.:D

Matthew Temkin
04-12-2005, 06:26 PM
Maybe you can just train me in how to do it then :)
Better yet, come to WTS2 and get slapped by Coops.
Or better yet, get Slavo over here and let him slap you.
I don't know....sounds like a lot of guys here are into pain....
Hmmm..Kinda like those clubs we have here in the Village....

todd_xxxx
04-12-2005, 07:23 PM
I just want to experience it once so that I know its valid. I don't want you guys making a party outta this......

MTS
04-12-2005, 07:36 PM
I just want to experience it once so that I know its valid. I don't want you guys making a party outta this......

So, no video?;)

7677
04-13-2005, 04:14 AM
Todd,
Slapping is addictive like potato chips...you can't stop at one. :eek:

Coops
04-13-2005, 08:32 AM
Better yet, come to WTS2 and get slapped by Coops.
Or better yet, get Slavo over here and let him slap you.
I don't know....sounds like a lot of guys here are into pain....
Hmmm..Kinda like those clubs we have here in the Village....

Even better: Mrs Coops might be coming along. Now she can slap :o

Coops

todd_xxxx
04-13-2005, 08:51 AM
So, no video?;)

Remember that last video I let you make? You said you wouldn't show anyone and now its plastered all over the internet......

I'm not sure I want to train with any of you anymore :)

Marc "Crafty Dog" Denny
04-26-2005, 02:10 PM
But I digress , , ,
==================

Concern over rise of 'happy slapping' craze

Fad of filming violent attacks on mobile phones spreads

Mark Honigsbaum
Tuesday April 26, 2005
The Guardian

In one video clip, labelled B*tch Slap, a youth approaches a woman at a bus stop and punches her in the face. In another, Knockout Punch, a group of boys wearing uniforms are shown leading another boy across an unidentified school playground before flooring him with a single blow to the head.

In a third, Bank Job, a teenager is seen assaulting a hole-in-the-wall customer while another youth grabs the money he has just withdrawn from the cash machine.

Welcome to the disturbing world of the "happy slappers" - a youth craze in which groups of teenagers armed with camera phones slap or mug unsuspecting children or passersby while capturing the attacks on 3g technology.

According to police and anti-bullying organisations, the fad, which began as a craze on the UK garage music scene before catching on in school playgrounds across the capital last autumn, is now a nationwide phenomenon.

And as the craze has spread from London to the home counties to the north of England, so the attacks have become more menacing, with increasing numbers of violent assaults and adult victims.

In London, British Transport police have investigated 200 happy slapping incidents in the past six months, with eight people charged with attacks at south London stations and bus stops in January alone.

The Metropolitan police have no overall figures but recorded a number of attacks in London boroughs earlier this year.

Following a spate of random attacks last December on pupils at Godolphin and Latymer girls' school in Hammersmith, west London, police posted extra officers in the area as a deterrent.

But as police have become more vigilant, so the gangs have become more sophisticated, seeking victims in parks or public areas where their crimes are unlikely to be spotted by the authorities or captured on CCTV.

Liz Carnell, the director of Bullying Online, a Yorkshire-based charity set up to combat bullying in schools, said that since the start of the year she has heard of increasing attacks both on children and on adults. But she fears many incidents are not reported.

"In most cases the worst that happens is a minor scratch or a bruised ego," she said.

"What the people behind these attacks have to understand is that technically they are committing an assault. And if they then upload the images on to the internet or a phone system they could be prosecuted for harassment."

What makes the attacks all the more bewildering is that many victims do not realise they have been happy slapped until after the event.

Earlier this month James Silver, 34, a freelance journalist, was attacked while jogging on the South Bank in London. While one youth blocked his path, another hit him with a rolled-up magazine.

When he spun around another teenager - who had been hiding behind nearby scaffolding - leapt out and hit him hard in the head. When he staggered to his feet he noticed the rest of the gang were jeering and pointing their mobile phones at him.

Silver admits that while the attack left his "ego smarting" he did not think it worth reporting. "At the end of the day I was unharmed but it was pretty shocking at the time," he said. "The worry is that while the bulk of the attacks are trivial, some of these youths could be carrying knives."

Earlier this year, schools in Lewisham, south London, and St Albans banned camera phones because of worries that the fad was leading to an increase in playground bullying.

In a comment recently posted on a London community web forum, "Happyslapper2" described the craze as a "joke", writing: "If you feel bored wen ur about an u got a video phone den b*tch slap sum norman, innit."

However, in a sign of a gathering backlash, other forum members disagreed. "It's hardly a joke ... it's f*ckin rude and pea-brained," wrote "slappersidiots".

"If this happy slapping fad continues it will only be a matter of time before someone is seriously hurt," predicted another.

J Marwood
04-26-2005, 02:46 PM
There was a murder in London a few months back which was filmed by the people carrying it out. The footage lead to their conviction. There was also a girl drugged and gangraped in a pub toilets last year who was identified by the police after they found the video on a muggers phone.

GeorgeG
04-26-2005, 03:44 PM
This kills me:



"What the people behind these attacks have to understand is that technically they are committing an assault."


It's only technically an assault? Maybe I'm misunderstanding characteristic British understatement here, but this just sounds like the right of a person to be free from assault is not seen as the main issue, like it's just an undesirable social phenomenon.

J Marwood
04-26-2005, 04:12 PM
Legally, these are assaults like any other. However the unusual nature of them (assaults as entertainment) has got the press focussing on this rather than the real issues.

kenpotex
04-27-2005, 02:31 AM
"What the people behind these attacks have to understand is that technically they are committing an assault. And if they then upload the images on to the internet or a phone system they could be prosecuted for harassment." Or, they could get whacked when they jump the wrong person...morons...