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Boricua
03-15-2005, 08:30 PM
I would like to know if in a CQ situation are you suppose to keep your eyes on the enemy or on your sights? I have read both sides of this and would like to know the reality of this. I shoot much better when I am watching the target especialy on the move. It seems to me you should train to watch the threat not something else, but I am usually wrong so this will not be the fisrt time. :D

Low Drag
03-15-2005, 08:37 PM
Not to be a pain but IMHO, it depends upon how "C" you are in CQ. ;)

Boricua
03-15-2005, 09:00 PM
Since most problems seem to happen close lets say 0' to 21'. He is coming at you fast with a weapon and wants to kill you. I am moving fast, done everything right and have my pistol inj hand. Now do I watch him or my sights? I know this sounds like a stupid question but because there seems to be two sides to this story I was wondering which way I should be training.

Thanks

Low Drag
03-15-2005, 09:21 PM
Since most problems seem to happen close lets say 0' to 21'. He is coming at you fast with a weapon and wants to kill you. I am moving fast, done everything right and have my pistol inj hand. Now do I watch him or my sights? I know this sounds like a stupid question but because there seems to be two sides to this story I was wondering which way I should be training.

Thanks
I think it's a given that you/I will focus on the threat. The question is will I bring my sights up into my line of sight with the threat? That depends upon the distance to the target an MY ability. I'm not one of those guys that can hit a tennis ball in the air, sights or no sights. But I can hit without my sights at 3 to 5 yds, but can really drill a small group, fast, at the same distance using my sights. So it all goes back to what you can do, not me or some expert and the situation.

I know, not a closed ended answer by a long shot. Sorry. :o

As for which way you should be training.... IMHO, both!

battleground
03-15-2005, 10:01 PM
My training is when I'm shooting I'm looking at my sights and when I'm not looking I'm looking at the target. Of course it depends on what "close" means here, but I am at least getting a sight index on my pistol.

Let's not confuse the issue of deciding whether to shoot (when you should be looking at the target to assess the threat) with your actions after you've made the decision to shoot. Which should happen very quickly after the decision is made.

dhopp
03-16-2005, 04:18 AM
Should you focus on the perps hands before going to sights? If you watch elsewhere you may get capped.

What do professionals recommend? :confused:

Cold War Scout
03-16-2005, 04:54 AM
Are you engaging or monitoring? I think you can watch a subject's hands and still see enough of your front sight to get good hits.

Dino
03-16-2005, 05:36 AM
Your focus is initially on the threat. You need to look at him in order to make the decision to shoot or not. This will be based on his actions. If the decision to shoot has been made then the gun should be raised to eye level given you have enough distance. Once at eye level pop your focus to the front sight as the trigger is being pressed and keep it there while you are firing.

Of couse things don't always go as planned. In a fight you may find your focus locked on the threat. This is something that happens often. Not always mind you but often. Especially in those up close fast suprise type of encounters. If you practice your sighted shooting enough you will notice that once the gun reaches eye level the sights are already aligned. Your body learns how to present the gun onto the target with the sights already aligned. This is a usefull skill to have because you may or may not be able to focus on your sights. You use the exact same movements each time you present the gun. The sights will be there if you are able to use them if you cant then you shoot with a target focus. With a target focus you may still be able to see the gun in your secondary vision giving you a clue that the gun is aligned.

That is the way I learned it anyway. Others may disagree. Then I met Matt :) . but that is another story.

Low Drag
03-16-2005, 06:15 AM
Here's another heap of my .02 cents..... Again it depends. Cameron and I have had this discussion many times and he like to say his Jeep Wrangler can dust a Corvette in a race any day. Wanta bet? It depends upon the situation, right? There are different tools for different jobs and situations. Same goes for techniques.

In the past week or two there have been some very public shootings with more that 1 or 2 victims aside from the BG. IMH there are 2 types of situations that a CCW may find him/herself and needing the gun outside the home.

There's the up close very personal encounter that can run from bad breath range out to a couple arms lenth, maybe the length of a car.

Then there's the public shooting where the BG is intent on killing a bunch of people. If you're not one of his first targets you most likely will be engaging at a conciderable distance, 25 yds or so. At least over a car's length anyway. So train for both and spend the most time on what is most likely based upon the intel you gather from the news etc.

To use sighted fire you will still be focusing on the threat, just bring the sights up into your line of sight. Shift focus for that split second after you've made the decission to fire when your sights get in the way.

The key here is to learn you own limitations. If you know, I mean KNOW you can deliver good solid quick hits from the hip at the length of your car, why use the sights at that range and under? Oh, and get a timer to prove to yourself which way you can make those good hits faster. ;)

banzai7
03-16-2005, 06:49 AM
I used to look at my sights. I worshiped at the altar of Weaver. Then I got introduced to the CAR system. It took some time to undo years of training, but I now shoot target focus. It works for me, even out to 25 yards. Don't get me wrong, I USE my sights, but I stay focused on the target and let the sights blur out somewhat.

I hope this doesnt make me a point shooter !!!!

Low Drag
03-16-2005, 07:10 AM
I used to look at my sights. I worshiped at the altar of Weaver. Then I got introduced to the CAR system. It took some time to undo years of training, but I now shoot target focus. It works for me, even out to 25 yards. Don't get me wrong, I USE my sights, but I stay focused on the target and let the sights blur out somewhat.

I hope this doesnt make me a point shooter !!!!
I too have started to use CAR. I'm cross domonate and have found this stance works great for me. I have a measurable improvement in my performance.

Now I just need to try it on the reaction side! BTW, I also use the combat high in CAR at 5 yds or less, that's a form of point shooting. At least if you define point shooting as not using your sights.

InTheBlack
03-16-2005, 09:23 AM
Its physically very difficult to focus on the FS when you are moving offline FAST. It can be done, but in a fight I think it would be a very un-natural thing to do. When moving fast, your brain wants to focus far away in order to see cues for keeping your balance.

jklinstein
03-16-2005, 10:18 AM
The key here is to learn you own limitations. If you know, I mean KNOW you can deliver good solid quick hits from the hip at the length of your car, why use the sights at that range and under? Oh, and get a timer to prove to yourself which way you can make those good hits faster. ;)

I appreciate this perspective. Know your abilities & limitations and let that determine your method. If there's a need to get more precision (because of bystanders or body armor, or ?), I'd be shifting focus to the front sight when putting the squeeze on the trigger, even (maybe especially) if I'm shooting while moving. Certainly there's situations where one doesn't have the time & space to shift focus onto the front-sights, but for me that would be the exception and not the rule.

jacob

Low Drag
03-16-2005, 10:36 AM
I appreciate this perspective. Know your abilities & limitations and let that determine your method. If there's a need to get more precision (because of bystanders or body armor, or ?), I'd be shifting focus to the front sight when putting the squeeze on the trigger, even (maybe especially) if I'm shooting while moving. Certainly there's situations where one doesn't have the time & space to shift focus onto the front-sights, but for me that would be the exception and not the rule.

jacob
Sounds like a big heap of common sense to me!

Remember, havingcommons sense means you think things through! ;)

DaveJames
03-16-2005, 01:51 PM
This is where Gae's "see what you need to see" comes in,IMO

Remember your not worried about little bitty groups, any thing between belt buckle and chin,and the more the merrier

michael
03-16-2005, 05:49 PM
When I did it for real, I focused on the threat and never looked at the sights.

Dino
03-16-2005, 07:48 PM
Yep in close range encounters it is very difficult to break your vision from the threat especially when moving rapidly. You have to know that you can still hit when this happens.You really need to do some fof. Thats where it all comes together.

Matt makes an interesting point about how you can learn to point shoot by using your sights during practice. I found this out during my own training and it was confirmed by watching many others on the range. Once I became skilled with sighted fire from the iso. position my ability to point shoot was also very good. I have watched many officers come to the range and shoot in very low light conditions. You can see the outline of the target but not much else sights are not visable at all and we don't have night sights. Yet at a range of 15ft. many shooters are able to shoot very accurately. The ones that do the best are the shooters who also shoot very well during lighted conditions. Their sighted shooting ability also gave them the ability to shoot very well without the sights.

This ability is mentioned in a couple of modern technique books I have read. Your daylight sighted shooting practice will give you the ability to still hit in the dark at reasonable ranges when you can't see your sights. Cooper was right when he said sights confirm stroke even when you can't see them.I also noticed at the WTS several sighted fire proponents shoot very well during the point shooting class. Could it be that their sighted fire training gave them the ability to point shoot as well. I think so.

A sight picture is nice to have but don't die trying to get one. Know that you can still hit effectively without one at close range because that is what is likely to happen.

michael
03-16-2005, 08:47 PM
A sight picture is nice to have but don't die trying to get one.
That's a classic, and very true.http://www.warriortalk.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Dino
03-16-2005, 08:50 PM
Very true one can learn to point shoot without first learning sighted shooting. But like you stated earlier you can also do it the other way around. Same result just two different paths.

Very interesting stuff here. For us it's a non issue as we can do both but how to teach a new shooter is the question. I first learned sighted fire and then later point shooting. I used the same body movements and positions for both. So I had one system that supported both shooting methods aimed and point. So when I practiced one method I was also developing skill with the other method.

For a new shooter who needed something right now to save his life with I would probably go with point shooting first since I believe it will be the natural response and is quick to learn at the ranges it will most likely be needed.

7677
03-17-2005, 06:51 AM
Boricua,
You might want to a search under the "Sight continuum" or Matt Temkin's name and you will get enough information on this subject to keep you busy for a couple of days as this issue has already been gone numerous times in the past two years.

Coops
03-17-2005, 10:27 AM
Ideally I still see point shooting as an advanced skill that should be taught to good, safe shooters.

tut Tut TUTT!! Mr Temkin. That's not what the master would have said...and you know it :D

'A good safe shooter' would be someone who had spent some time learning range safety etc as well as accurate shooting. What about the time between picking up the gun for the first time and him eventually becoming a good, safe shooter. As we know, shootings happen within 9 feet and it's a fight when it happens (or an assassination).

My view is, teach them what they will probabally need most, then start teaching sight picture, trigger pull, as he develops skills at distance. That way, you are making sure that you will still have a student when the time comes to learn the latter skills.

Coops

dhopp
03-18-2005, 03:50 AM
I try to practice fast drawing Right handed for close situations but worry about shooting the Left joining supporting hand when not so close to the attacker as to need to shoot off the right hip one handed.

I shot live ammo one time and got REAL close to the left forefinger. It was an eye opener.

Any prior info or drills on this forum so I could dry fire and try not shoot the joining L hand with speed draws? :confused:

Dino
03-18-2005, 04:51 AM
Where are you placing your support hand during the draw process. More specifically when your right hand is going for the gun where is your left hand.

WIG19
03-18-2005, 11:08 AM
Lots of good stuff here, so thanks all, from one who's never had to use a pistol that way but is seldom without one. But as my interest continues I've found this:

The more consistent & ingrained my other mechanics are (and this is simply the homework of practice), the less necessity I have of sights at short distances. With a consistent grip and approach to drawing and a 'burned-in' focus on the target/threat, I find that when I mentally step-back and actually look my sights are much closer to the exact spot I was homing in on and didn't even consciously notice. (I would also agree that a hasty draw & fire from the side should be a one-handed affair. An old pic of Bill Jordan comes to mind.)

Enjoying the forum; thanks all. :)

dhopp
03-18-2005, 11:28 AM
My problem may be that the left hand was out ahead of the gun hand and when joining at speed the trigger gets pulled prematurely before the hands join and as the grip on the gun gets extended. The faster I try to draw the worse this tendency gets with point shooting, not aimed fire.

I assume enough correct dry firing should prevent early d/c of the weapon at speed.

This is definitely not something to do when you have the need for a real speed draw.

dhopp
03-18-2005, 12:15 PM
I should add that this occured when I was not square with the target but my left side was closest to the target and the gun was drawn and went accross the chest to the shooting position.

todd_xxxx
03-18-2005, 01:05 PM
I know in SouthNarc's video, he teaches indexing the left hand onto the sternum at the same time the right hand grips the gun. The left stays on the sternum until it mates with the right.

Gabriel Suarez
03-18-2005, 04:26 PM
Gents,

My late added .02. Learn the body mechanics slowly and correctly. Once that is done shave off excessive motion so you become faster by becoming smoother and doing less. Don't try to run the gun outside of your capability. Enos calls this Limit Of Human Performance. Train there occasionally, but don't train there exclusively. A gunfight is s tudy in self-control and knowing just what your capabilities are. Learn them and extend them in training, but when it counts, always shoot within them.

InTheBlack
03-18-2005, 09:49 PM
Matt- speaking of revolvers & newbies -- today I was at the range figuring out what kind of ammo a particular target pistol would eat. A couple of young guys rented a 38 revolver, and after a while asked me why they couldn't get the cylinder shut.

The cylinder had backed off the ejector rod & was stuck behind the recoil shield. I took it out front & got it straightened out, figuring that the crane screw had been loose.

After a while, I'm shooting off the bags and I hear this "bang bang bang" noise, and I sez to myself, that sounds like they are pounding on something.

I went over and they said they were having a hard time getting the empties out. So I look at the gun again, and easily push the empties out. They're eyes got real big -- "Is THAT how you are supposed to do it ??? "

Turns out that one had shot a pistol just once before, and they were indeed banging the cylinder on the bench trying to get the empties out of the cylinder because they had never handled a revolver before.

Since it wasn't MY gun, I was just about ROTFLMAO PMP ! But I stifled myself...

So I ended up teaching them the basics, and they had a lot of fun and were hitting center with good groups. One of them asked about getting a gun & what kind he should get.

dhopp
03-19-2005, 05:12 AM
Gabe--

Great advise!! I was obviously acting outside my present limits of skill when I almost shot the left forefinger on the draw.Left hand on chest and practice ,practice,practice.

Its tough to play with gun gamers when they smoke you on the draw and the target! Just gotta make up for that with mental toughness,consistency, tactical training and awareness.

The Warrior Forum is Excellent!!

Boricua
03-19-2005, 07:59 PM
Thanks guys for all the good info. It is good to know that the way I practice is more in line with reality.

1911a1
03-20-2005, 04:05 PM
I usually don't even look at the sights until 20 yards or so. I just sorta superimpose them over the target. If in doubt, watch for the front sight. You can practice this by extending your index finger of your shooting hand toward the target while watching the target. The hand will go where the eye is. It takes a while to get used to it. Good luck.