PDA

View Full Version : Community Survey



Gabriel Suarez
12-02-2003, 07:38 AM
OK, I ususally do this every year about this time.

What training are you most interested in seeing?
What would you like added to training courses?
What courses would you most like to attend?

Let me know.

dgg9
12-02-2003, 07:44 AM
Interested in seeing (locally to me):

1. A carbine seminar, or any such carbine class that starts at Square Zero. Maybe you have this already...

2. Home defense course, presumably reserved for ranges that have some kind of shoot house.

John Kuhlman
12-02-2003, 10:13 AM
My main objective in learning all of this stuff is to control and dominate the immediate space around my family when traveling and everything contained within the four walls of my home.

Although learning to use a carbine out to 400 meters is fun, and learning team tactics is even more fun, that type of training doesn't fit my area of operations (to use tactical-speak;) )

With that in mind, I would love to see a class of 4-6 people in a given community gather for a two-day home defense scenarios course using FoF. Rather than hold the class in some generic warehouse or square range, I'd like to see it held in each of the students' homes. Cover three houses in a day where you would learn the strong and weak points of your home when it comes to defense and practice scenarios, and yes, solo clearing. The students could play home invaders and in the course of a couple hours, you could run through several drills in one home. Then move on to another student's home.

That's practical learning.

I don't know about the logistics of this would work out, or if it would be profitable for Gabe to run a class like this. I would imagine each of the six students would need to be advanced students in order to maximize the time spent on tactics vs. gunhandling/marksmanship.

Just my humble thoughts.

John

Mute
12-02-2003, 10:21 AM
- Realistic Self Defense (Armed/Unarmed)
- Home Defense Shotgun
- First-Aid for injuries sustain in a self defense situation
- Dealing with dangerous situation on a commercial airliner
- Armed Home Defense with a Partner(s)
- Handgun Force-on-Force

These are just a few of the top of my head.

Low Drag
12-03-2003, 09:22 PM
As a civilian I have limited applications.

What I need is defense in the home.
Defense in the mall, street other public area and defense from car.

Give me the basics and examples of where/when to employ those basics. All this from a class that presupposes I can shoot/move safely, draw etc. shoot on the move to a reasonable degree.

That way I don't have to take an entry level class, spending a few days and many $'s for stuff that I already know.

LFW
12-04-2003, 02:19 AM
Ditto what Low Drag just said, and address the close range shooting/H2H aspects of these types situations. It would be good if the H2H touched on use/defense of knives, clubs, pepper spray, weapons of opportunity, etc. This covers a lot of ground, so would probably need a basic and advanced course.--Leigh

DLS
12-04-2003, 05:59 AM
Mr. Kuhlman and Low Drag offer some interesting ideas.

Grey Wolf
12-05-2003, 04:49 PM
I think Team tatcics, including simple easy to learn verbal/non verbal communication would be great.

As A LEO, I know only limited number of folks I work with will
"study" or practice any give tactic. If I can learn a way too communicate with them in a short time I would be very happy...

But I think I may have to dream on!

Grey Wolf

Hasher
12-05-2003, 05:20 PM
Advanced Carbine in Close Quarters

Advanced shotgun in Close Quarters

FOF for the above classes

FOF pistol imn realistic scenarios

michael
12-05-2003, 06:12 PM
I think that something one of the other shooting schools that shall remane nameless does is a good idea. Team house clearing using a husband/wife or boyfriend/girlfriend team. Maybe using a combination of Airsoft and range training.

John Kuhlman
12-06-2003, 12:47 AM
Roger,

Of course I am on to something. I am John.

:rolleyes:

(A late-night, poor homage to Chue from "The Adventures of Remo Williams")

Low Drag
12-07-2003, 05:36 PM
I think Team tatcics, including simple easy to learn verbal/non verbal communication would be great.

As A LEO, I know only limited number of folks I work with will
"study" or practice any give tactic. If I can learn a way too communicate with them in a short time I would be very happy...

But I think I may have to dream on!

Grey Wolf


Grey Wolf,
There's lot's out there in various military pubs on non-verbal communication.
I think Guide Book for Marines and I'm sure any FM on patroling will have lots of hand signals to give you a good running start. No sense reinventing the wheel and it'll get you thinking. HOWEVER, these do take a lot of time to get everyone on the same page. Not to mention teaching them to keep their head of a swivel looking for threats AND remembering to look at the rest of the team for hand signals. Many a sqad leader has lost their temper over this one!

P.D.
12-07-2003, 08:38 PM
What seems to be missing from almost every shooting school's curriculum is a course teaching the civilian CCW holder weapons retention, escalation of force from verbal, to unarmed force on force, to actual shooting, and knife defenses (everybody's carrying a spyderco these days - shouldn't they know what to do with them other than cut string). Sure, everybody who's anybody has this training for the professional or the 'Bobbie on the beat', but not for Mr. C.C.W. public.

VaughnT
12-08-2003, 05:56 PM
I'd like to see something about using common carbines/shotguns...not the militaryesque stuff. I'm all for a full-house AR15, but most folks have a levergun or an unmodified Mossberg shotgun (mine's a 500c 20g). How do you use those to maximum benefit?

Also, more classes in the area of western SC. With Ronin on the outs with the loss of the Col., there's very little I can find that I can fit into my schedule and budget.

Basic classes focusing on the basics. I was really impressed with the Grover tape I just bought and see that there is a lot more to the most simple maneuvers than I would have thought.

Close-quarters fighting. This is where it's going to happen, get used to it.

Low-light and house clearing is nice, too.

How about some videos to help those of us that can't make a class? Another book wouldn't hurt, either.

InTheBlack
12-09-2003, 11:32 PM
The house clearing could be done if you can find willing furniture store owners in various locations around the country.
***

How about a SHTF course aimed at showing the unwilling-to-be-aware wife the necessity of learning some "code yellow/red" drills and following the lead of their spouse in such situations?

MTS
12-10-2003, 04:58 AM
How about a SHTF course aimed at showing the unwilling-to-be-aware wife the necessity of learning some "code yellow/red" drills and following the lead of their spouse in such situations?

Unfortunatly those are the ones that you usually cannot get to come to the training sessions.:(

Any ideas on how to get them to attend.:confused:

InTheBlack
12-10-2003, 08:30 AM
Some combination of your authority as head of the household and plain old bribery :)

Do it near an outlet mall and then go on a field trip to practice family team tactics.

CarlosDJackal
12-12-2003, 11:07 AM
OK, I ususally do this every year about this time.
What training are you most interested in seeing?

Shotgun, Force-on-Force, and Low Light.


What would you like added to training courses?

More strings that require one to draw, shoot, and reload on the move.


What courses would you most like to attend?.

Shotgun and multiple weapons (i.e. Pistol and Shotgun/Carbine).

Stay safe!!

CarlosDJackal
12-12-2003, 11:18 AM
What seems to be missing from almost every shooting school's curriculum is a course teaching the civilian CCW holder weapons retention, escalation of force from verbal, to unarmed force on force, to actual shooting, and knife defenses (everybody's carrying a spyderco these days - shouldn't they know what to do with them other than cut string). Sure, everybody who's anybody has this training for the professional or the 'Bobbie on the beat', but not for Mr. C.C.W. public.

I am in the process of trying to get approval to organize and offer such a course on behalf of the Sheriff's Office. It's intended purpose was two-fold:

(1) To teach the CCW holder more advanced skills and mindset than what is required to obtain a CCW (at least here).

(2) To help raise money for our Reserve Unit which is a non-profit organization.

We shall see if they will buy off on this. As liberal as this area is, it may not be feasible.

Steve Camp
12-12-2003, 01:52 PM
1) Team family defense
a) at home: husband / wife team tactics
i) defense
ii) house clearing
iii) when / how to get family out of house

b) away from home
i) loading the family vehicle in various scenarios
1. open parking lot
2. closed parking lot (e.g. parking garage)
3. infant considerations
4. larger childre considerations

2) Combat first aid
a) basics of what to do if someone is shot / stabbed / otherwise injured
b) basics of what to carry / how to carry / where to carry

3) How to deal with the aftermath of a self-defense event
a) clear the area? or stay put?
b) how to deal with police
i) what, if anything, to say / not say
ii) how to find a good attorney beforehand
c) related topic: how to interact with police
i) know your rights
ii) how to refuse search etc (USA & maybe elsewhere)
iii) what to say / how to act etc

georgel
12-12-2003, 03:31 PM
As Grey Wolf and others have aluded to, two man team tactics and methodolgy. I will assume that multi-membered teams would apply the same principles. How to cover each other and move without endangering each other.
Even if the other member(s) don't attend, it would be beneficial. Other members could take your lead.

Justin_P
12-12-2003, 09:15 PM
Well, you can do anything you want, Gabe, as long as it's somewhere in New England.

I'd like to see home defense... not just fighting in the home but preparing the home to maximize chances of winning an attack.

Believeraz
12-14-2003, 07:48 PM
Mark Swain asked how to get the students who needed the retention/integrated force/spyderco type training to come take it.

I would humbly suggest that unless a student can show proof of integrated force/retention training from an LE academy or other pro trainer, they should be required to train in those disciplines before taking gunfight-level firearms training.

You could put together a one day curriculum and teach it as pre-course to the gunfighting type classes. It will narrow the field to serious students, as most mall-ninjas don't like getting smacked around before they can hit the range.

michael
12-15-2003, 06:18 AM
How about a two day class, during which the first 1/2 of day one would be unarmed combatives, second 1/2 day would be tactical folder knife techniques. Day two would be close range gunfighting. I think this would be an excellent combo, or you could make it a 3 day course, with one day each devoted to unarmed combatives, knife and close range gunfighting. I would love to go to THAT!!:)

InTheBlack
12-15-2003, 07:01 AM
>>>
suggest that unless a student can show proof of integrated
force/retention training from an LE academy or other pro trainer, they should be
required to train in those disciplines before taking gunfight-level
>>>

We shouldn't set outselves up as dictators of what other people need.

For some people, developing the confidence to fight and the psychological ability to kill human targets needs to begin at a distance, not in hand-to-hand.

And for people who don't or can't CCW, defending a hardpoint and moving around their home are what they want/need.

"God made men, but Samual Colt made men equal."

Believeraz
12-15-2003, 10:24 AM
>>>
suggest that unless a student can show proof of integrated
force/retention training from an LE academy or other pro trainer, they should be
required to train in those disciplines before taking gunfight-level
>>>

We shouldn't set outselves up as dictators of what other people need.

For some people, developing the confidence to fight and the psychological ability to kill human targets needs to begin at a distance, not in hand-to-hand.

And for people who don't or can't CCW, defending a hardpoint and moving around their home are what they want/need.

"God made men, but Samual Colt made men equal."

In the Black,

I agree that we should not dictate what people "need", but I believe that a student should show they "have" certain abilities or understandings to take "advanced" level classes.

Retention and escalation/de-escalation are very important skills to have and understand. Someone who carries a gun without a knowledge of both will find themselves in a spot of trouble in the event of an armed confrontation. Street interactions do not follow the choreography of IDPA or IPSC meets, and subjects do not always comply with your commands. If you don't train for it, you will get eaten by it.

I believe it's a trainer's responsibility to his students to offer training of this sort, and that it should be integrated into intermediate/advanced classes, or mandated as a pre-req to said classes.

If you are going to carry a gun, you should know how to defend against take-aways, and how to differentiate between use of force and use of deadly force, and how to respond. If you only take a firearms class and strap on the ol' hawg leg (or worse yet no training) and hit the street, well....when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. That makes for bad headlines and litigation...and the erosion of the rights of others.

Besides, you can't go to Gunsite or most any other Disneyland with guns and sign up for an advanced tactics class without having prerequisite courses....I think the same should apply in this department.

InTheBlack
12-15-2003, 09:52 PM
>>>
Retention and escalation/de-escalation are very important skills to have and understand. Someone who carries a gun without a knowledge of both will find themselves in a spot of trouble in the event of an armed confrontation. Street interactions...
>>>

Read what I said. People who don't have a CCW; eg home defense. People who don't yet have the confidence to go hand to hand, with or without any kind of weapon. Many people don't have the mental attitude required for close combat, and starting at the other end will help develop it. You can't exclude people who don't happen to have your own personality type.

Believeraz
12-16-2003, 06:22 AM
M'kay, I think you have a point, and I don't want to beat the dead horse, so let me rephrase things in a better attempt to make sense.

I'm not saying you need to take a good ol' fashioned southern whoopin' to take a firearms class at all. Likewise, the timid can still learn from the standoff/firearms applications and move inward as you suggested, I simply propose that they integrate the other necessary stuff when they start interjecting tactics, which in my initial post was referenced as intermediate or advanced classes. See chapters 12-14 of Gabe's The Tactical Advantage for reference of what I'm thinking of.

Question for instructors: Do you perceive instructor liability if you were to teach a home/vehicle defense course that was strictly firearms-focused and excluded these other considerations?

I hope that makes a bit more sense and is a bit more acceptable than my previous rendering. If not, I'll just tinkle off.

RMF
12-16-2003, 12:58 PM
Gabe,

I want to second the requests for classes in Colorado !!

Also most of the other suggestions were great. Advanced classes are for advanced skills, so prereqs. are OK but LE or pro instructors are not the only places to learn. Many of us have the experence and abilities from other realms. Not all skills come form LE professionals. (I do resent the implication that I am not a 'Professional' because I'm not LE or current military !)

The best suggestion yet is:
How about some videos to help those of us that can't make a class? Another book wouldn't hurt, either.

Another book and/or video would be great. ( In your spare time !!)

Believeraz
12-16-2003, 01:45 PM
but LE or pro instructors are not the only places to learn. Many of us have the experence and abilities from other realms. Not all skills come form LE professionals. (I do resent the implication that I am not a 'Professional' because I'm not LE or current military !)


Very true, and well put. I should have put "formal training" or proficiency or somesuch.

B

safestop
12-24-2003, 06:37 AM
OK, I ususally do this every year about this time.

What training are you most interested in seeing?
What would you like added to training courses?
What courses would you most like to attend?

Let me know.
Gabe,
1) You already have the one class I desire most, Close Qtr. self defense.
2) personal defense tactical medicine (what do you do for a knife or gunshot wound, till the medics arrive)What supplies should one have on hand for this situation.

3) CQD and knife counter knife, all done in low light
Merry Christmas
Fuzzy