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View Full Version : This Is Why Combatives Are As Important As Firearms Skills



Cold War Scout
03-11-2005, 08:24 AM
I spend money out of my own pocket training with Gabe, and the combatives instructors he has established relationships with, for this very reason!
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Shooting; Manhunt Continues

Friday, March 11, 2005



ATLANTA, Ga. — A man facing rape charges grabbed a deputy's gun and shot and killed three people, including a judge, at the Fulton County Courthouse (search) in downtown Atlanta, sparking a citywide manhunt.

The suspect, identified as Brian Nichols, carjacked a series of vehicles following the 9 a.m. EST shooting. Nichols, 34, is described as a balding black male, 6'1" and weighing 200 pounds, and of medium complexion. He was being held on charges including rape and false imprisonment stemming from an incident in August last year.

Nichols ran out of the courthouse firing the stolen weapon, witnesses said. He also pistol-whipped an Atlanta Journal-Constitution reporter during a carjacking attempt.

Authorities believe Nichols has carjacked several vehicles in an effort to elude authorities. He was last seen in a 1987 green Honda Accord, license plate 658-4YN.

Police were out in force following the shooting, setting up roadblocks at major intersections in downtown and midtown Atlanta. The courthouse is located in the heart of the city, near the state capital and major tourist destinations.

Superior Court Judge Rowland Barnes (search) died from his gun shot wounds, officials at Atlanta's Grady Hospital said.

At around 10:30 the court reporter's death was confirmed by Georgia's lieutenant governor's office. The name was not released pending notification of kin.

About 10 minutes later radio station WAGA reported that one of the deputies had also succumbed to his wounds.

The fourth person who was shot, also a sheriff's deputy, was being treated at a local hospital.

The shooting took place on the eighth floor of the courthouse. The suspect is believed to have been a rape suspect whose case was being heard in Barnes' courtroom, television reports said.

Lawyers who knew Barnes said they were shocked by the news.

“You probably will not find a judge anywhere in the country that dreamed about being a judge more than Rowland Barnes. He loved being a judge,” said Drew Findling, an Atlanta lawyer.

B.J. Bernstein, another Atlanta lawyer, said Barnes was “extremely” well respected. “This is a man who always looked at both sides … made sure both sides had been heard and yet would rule justly. His demeanor on the bench was fair but firm,” she said.

mlhoward
03-11-2005, 08:32 AM
Stuff like this and the Federal judges family recently makes me wonder why anyone would want to be a judge. May as well paint a bullseye on your head.

BWayne
03-11-2005, 12:38 PM
My aunt knew the judge well. She said that he was one of the nicest people. My aunt called my mother in tears as she is just devastated.

The dogs are out a 'huntin for the POS in GA. I hope they find the bastard.

mlhoward
03-11-2005, 01:10 PM
That's what all the news reports are saying too, that he was a great judge and nice person. FWIW, both prosecutor and defense attorneys have said he was fair and considerate.

Also, the news reports are saying both Deputies were shot in the face/head. I wonder if the perp, knowing the uniformed officers would be wearing body armor, shot for the head for that reason?

Cold War Scout
03-11-2005, 04:44 PM
As somebody with experience in this area, what the hell was one guy doing taking this guy to court? 6'1". 200 lbs. Nasty attitude. Prior escape. Shank in possession just two days ago.

TxCop312
03-11-2005, 05:04 PM
It wasn't one guy. It was one female. She's the one who's still alive. Combateffective can tell you more.

Ragsbo
03-11-2005, 06:49 PM
One report I read said the female officer was alone with him as he was changing into street clothes for the court appearance. The accuse must be allowed to wear street clothes and not be handcuffed in court because it might give the jury the wrong idea. Leaving this guy alone with any one person was a terrible idea. Never trust the bastards!

On a positive side (if there is one) consider the survival instinct this guys has. There is no quit in him. He does what ever he has to to survive. If we are in a life and death situation, can we be so ruthless and determined to survive as he is?

My prayers go out to the families of the ones killed and for the deputy, may she have a quick and complete recovery.

TxCop312
03-11-2005, 07:25 PM
What survival instinct? He had the advantage from the start. His goal was not survival. It was to kill as many people as possible to escape. And yes, I'd be ruthless in my apprehension of this scumbag because I'm going home at night no matter what.

Young9mmGunner
03-11-2005, 07:47 PM
My aunt knew the judge well. She said that he was one of the nicest people. My aunt called my mother in tears as she is just devastated.

The dogs are out a 'huntin for the POS in GA. I hope they find the bastard.


And when they do I hope there are no cameras around. :D
This guy is a true POS.

Ragsbo
03-11-2005, 07:55 PM
What survival instinct? He had the advantage from the start. His goal was not survival. It was to kill as many people as possible to escape. And yes, I'd be ruthless in my apprehension of this scumbag because I'm going home at night no matter what.


That is exactly what I mean. He didn't care about anything but getting the heck out of there no matter what. So you have to be just as determined that YOU ARE GOING HOME THAT NIGHT and he isn't!

TravisABQ
03-11-2005, 09:14 PM
Not handcuffed.
In street clothes.
Guarded by 1 girl who was what? 5 ft and 105 pounds?

He was previously busted in jail for shivs and
trying to make bombs?

Just stunning.

--Travis--

michael
03-11-2005, 09:25 PM
My guess is the POS will kill himself before they capture him. He will take the cowards way out.

Gun Mutt
03-11-2005, 09:59 PM
I don't know about killing himself - but I'll bet that he has lost all court room privilages and will not be "captured" alive.

And I'm really, really okay with that.

Cold War Scout
03-12-2005, 06:03 AM
He may go down fighting but my fear is he will take still more with him. In fact I fear he already has somebody hostage right now.

TommyB
03-12-2005, 07:34 AM
Not to hijack this into a scenario thread, but I was driving in the area they were looking for this guy yesterday. There were police, sheriffs, GSP, GBI and FBI cars everywhere and helicopters moving in grids overhead. I had to go into the wooded backyard of a vacant house. Face-to-face needless to say you would engage this guy in a second. But my question is, if you had the chance as an armed civillion would you shoot this guy in the back if the opportunity presented itself? How about a white guy shooting shooting a very bad black guy in the back in Atlanta?

Cold War Scout
03-12-2005, 07:55 AM
Ragsbo:

Call me a pussy but no I would not do absolutely anything to innocent people just to make it home at night. I guess if somebody was about to stab you in a subway car, a little kid standing next to you to use as a shield would be fair game?

michael
03-12-2005, 09:12 AM
Nichols is in custody in Gwinett County, GA.

TommyB
03-12-2005, 09:34 AM
They caught him a couple of miles from my house. I think he might have been stalking me.

mlhoward
03-12-2005, 03:49 PM
This was one scary smart perp. He escaped from the courthouse after taking a deputy's pistol, killed a judge & reporter, killed a deputy on the way out, then hijacked a car in the garage across the street.

He is seen leaving the garage, but isn't noticed when he pulled back into the garage through another entrance & parks on a different floor. He hides out while every agency is looking for the car.

After things quiet down he rides the MARTA train to a different part of the metro area, kills a customs agent, takes his gun & truck, drives a few miles away, then takes a hostage and holes up in her apartment.

LE still has no idea where he is, they are speculating on the news that he may be out of state already. And he finally gets caught when his hostage slips out and calls 911.

Ragsbo
03-12-2005, 04:22 PM
Ragsbo:

Call me a pussy but no I would not do absolutely anything to innocent people just to make it home at night. I guess if somebody was about to stab you in a subway car, a little kid standing next to you to use as a shield would be fair game?

You are reading stuff into my post that isn't there. Where do you get the idea that I am proposing using a little kid for a shield? If you read that, you were mistaken and hopefully I can explain it better. This guy was not going to let anything or any body get in his way to get out of there. If you were confronted with that type of person, you must be as ruthless and firm in your convictions to over come him and survive the day. Does that mean using a kid? Hell no! Does that mean shooting him to the ground and never letting him up, YES! Does this mean using all the tactics and training you have, YES! We do operate with a different set of rules than this type of person, and I was speaking of doing what it takes to go home UNDER OUR RULES, not his.

It is evident that this guy had some idea of what he was doing and never stopped thinking the whole time he was acting. To circle back and hide, then slip out, that takes a cold cucumber, and makes for a very dangerous situation. I was trying to get people to think of how they would have handled the situation, both from the law enforcement side and also his side. What would you be able to do if it was you that Al Queda (?) had captured and you were trying to get away? I was trying to get people to think, but evidently I got them to thinking the wrong way. Hopefully I have cleared the waters, or have I just stirred the mud up more.

Agencyman
03-12-2005, 04:50 PM
But when it comes to taking fast moving heavy metal pellets himself - out comes the white flag!!!

I am sorry to say that my sense of P.O.S. forgiveness is sorely lacking here.

OK, so he didn't provide opportunity for quick resolution of his final disposition.

Now we go to court for 17 years, and learn what a loving, kind guy he generally is. Still, a death penalty is called for here, no chance of an insanity plea or whatever.

In a more equitable world, he would be sentenced to death, by Brown Recluse Arachnid. (Fire ants are way too fast.).

Just want to stay "All Natural", and not use the ways of the chemist.

Ragsbo
03-12-2005, 05:44 PM
Does Georgia have the death penalty? He sure is the best canidate I know of.

mlhoward
03-12-2005, 06:36 PM
Does Georgia have the death penalty? He sure is the best canidate I know of.
yes, and while we're not Texas our's isn't rusty either.

Ragsbo
03-12-2005, 08:31 PM
If it was, I'd volunteer to shine it up!

dhopp
03-12-2005, 08:39 PM
Bad News--This guy is both out and out evil and smart.

Look at those dead eyes.

I am glad theycaught him so other innocents won't die.He is a disgusting piece of humanity.

Any tips on spotting this type out of a crowd? Some LE guys swear they can do it. Eyes, attitude, what? :confused:

DELTA
03-12-2005, 08:56 PM
Before this incident, if someone had mentioned that this guy, who is 6' something, 225lb, ex-football player, is being guarded by a 5' 54 year old woman, he would have been labeled a sexist.

This is the end result of Affirmative Action & Equal Opportunity Employment.

DELTA
03-12-2005, 08:58 PM
Most civilians assume that all people who wear a badge are trained, whereas all they have to do is a 50 round qualifying a month.

We, who train with Gabe or others know better. We can outdo 95% of all cops, but tell that to the civies. :cool:

DELTA
03-12-2005, 09:01 PM
This event also proves that, as Gabe says, it is not only important to be profficient with guns, you also have to be able to do other things.

1. Weapon's retention.
2. Fight off assailant until you can draw & shoot.
3. Etc.

Gabriel Suarez
03-13-2005, 05:16 AM
Some points:

1). Putting a girl like that in a position like that is stupid. Are there tough women who could fight this guy? Perhaps, but not having to be PC I can say that in the eyes of the admin, the girl was the same as any big hairy-a**ed male cop. So they probably didn't even think of the potential issues.

2). Never underestimate the bad guy. I don't think this guy was a coward. Put yourself in pre-invasion Iraq, about to be tried for praying over your lunch. You know what is in store for you. You gonna do anything different?? The girl cop put on a uniform and badge and placed herself in an opposing position to the BG. The BG simply took advantage of the disparity of ferocity.

3). When you train, train to beat this guy and not some emaciated meth freak that you outweigh by 100 pounds.

4). There comes a time when killing takes precedence ovver containment or arrest. Wrestling on the ground for you gun?
Ram a finger in his eye and pull out his eye. Stick the muzzle into his groin. Or do a Tom Sotis and take a hamburger size chunk out of his arm with your teeth. Cultivate your level of ferocity and capacity for violence.

5). Note that a courthouse is void of weapons except in the hands of cops. Note that the com-libs always say the cops will save you. Note that against a more ferocious and prepared adversary, untrained cops are not even able to protect themselves.

6). Finally, and perhaps its because I come from a different age, at the capture point it would not have been hard to finish this event with a dead BG. Its a matter of timing and will.

michael
03-13-2005, 12:10 PM
Todd is the guy I'm training for. I wish more LEO's were, but sadly, they are not. Most do what they have to during in-service training to keep their certification and get their supplement pay from the state. I worked with bunches of them, and I was one of only a handful out of 400 that used their own dime to better themselves. LE is a warrior profession, but few LEO's are warriors.

Geezer
03-13-2005, 12:44 PM
Re Gabe's Point 6. I am from an even earlier age. I don't know how to say this politely, but I was thoroughly disgusted and outraged that this guy was captured alive. That was a cowardly decision, that will only encourage other BGs to kill other LEOs.

God bless and y'all be mindful out there.

MTS
03-13-2005, 02:34 PM
Most civilians assume that all people who wear a badge are trained, whereas all they have to do is a 50 round qualifying a month.
In a lot of agencies it is 50 rounds (+/-) per year.:(

I was in Atlanta airport returning from Spain when the news broke on the CNN moniters that he had been captured.

Like Geezer and Gabe I was having trouble wrapping my head around the "captured alive" part.

mlhoward
03-13-2005, 03:20 PM
In a lot of agencies it is 50 rounds (+/-) per year.:(

I was in Atlanta airport returning from Spain when the news broke on the CNN moniters that he had been captured.

Like Geezer and Gabe I was having trouble wrapping my head around the "captured alive" part.
He waved a white flag in view of reporters. That'd be a hard shoot to defend in the press.

Geezer
03-13-2005, 03:58 PM
Since when do you invite reporters to a felony bust? I thought Waco cured everybody of that asinine stupidity. Is that a police department or a f**king reality TV show? F**king bunch of Keystone Klowns.

It ain't right and it ain't ever gonna be right, dammit.

God bless and y'all be mindful out there.

Ragsbo
03-13-2005, 04:15 PM
[QUOTE=Mark Swain]In a lot of agencies it is 50 rounds (+/-) per year.:(

When my brother worked for the Sheriff department (about 5 or 6 years) the only qualification he did was in the academy and never again. He did some training on his own, but nothing was required.

mlhoward
03-13-2005, 04:25 PM
They reported on the news tonight that he signed a confession. He sure as heck had better not have been offered life in exchange for a plea. This sucks! Hopefully the dope signed his own death warrant, but who knows.

Young9mmGunner
03-13-2005, 05:20 PM
Is he gonna make it to trial(maybe somehow an inmate will get to him 1st) :D By the way does GA have the death penalty.

MTS
03-13-2005, 06:34 PM
Since when do you invite reporters to a felony bust? I thought Waco cured everybody of that asinine stupidity. Is that a police department or a f**king reality TV show? F**king bunch of Keystone Klowns.

It ain't right and it ain't ever gonna be right, dammit.

God bless and y'all be mindful out there.
No doubt the media was monitering LEO frequencies. Even if they weren't it is hard to set up a cordon on an apartment complex without attracting attention and someone calling and tipping the local media.

MTS
03-13-2005, 06:35 PM
By the way does GA have the death penalty.
He also killed a Federal LEO which would make him eligible for the needle under federal law.

Geezer
03-13-2005, 07:13 PM
Check the stats on how many BGs that get the death penalty are actually executed. Very few. Even they usually live 15-20 years while the ACLU and others try to get them turned loose.

On Death Row they are protected from the other prisoners, their diet is better, everything is just so.

Inside the joint he is a hero, an inspiration to up and coming BGs. Many will envy his rep now that he has killed a judge as well as a couple of officers. Because he is going to enoy three hots and a cot for many, many years to come, I would expect that there will be plenty of young BGs envious of his rep who will figure they have nothing to lose by trying to do the same thing, or even outdo him.

You have to remember that most of them clearly understand they have chosen a way of life where they will be doing life on the installment plan. The joint is home, and it is the only place in their world where they can enjoy homosexual activity (Hey man, don't matter if you are catching or pitching, you're still playing baseball.) without being censured. That , BTW, is probably the primary reason for the high rate of recividism.

Whoever orchestrated this capture is responsible for the death of numbers of officers in future years. That's the way I see it, and that's the way I am calling it.

God bless and y'all be mindful out there.

Ragsbo
03-13-2005, 07:26 PM
Maybe someone will want the celebrity status of having done his "bad dude" in and safe us some tax money.

michael
03-13-2005, 07:28 PM
FoxNews showed an interview tonight with the female that he held hostage in the apartment. She talked with him about the Lord, his purpose in life, and the crimes he had committed. It was a really interesting interview, and she said Nichols referred to her as an "Angel of God" that was sent to him. It will be interesting in the coming days to see how this plays out. He did not rape her or hurt her in any way appartently. Hmm......

DELTA
03-13-2005, 09:05 PM
Luckily he is over 18 years old, or else he would not have qualified for the DP under SCOTUS's new ruling. :mad:

Jujutsuka
03-14-2005, 06:02 AM
Cultivate your level of ferocity and capacity for violence.
My new favorite Gabe quote... :D

mlhoward
03-14-2005, 07:00 AM
More tidbits from the news this morning:

--The deputy who got jumped in the elevator is a 51yo grandmother.

--There is a CCTV system that captured the elevator attack, but the two deputys assigned to watch the monitors were out of the room.

--At the capture, there were, besides Gwinett SWAT, there were patrol officers & staff, as well as people from FBI, the US Marshal's service, GBI, Gwinnet Sheriffs dept. & the news media, including Geraldo Rivera. Someone selling corn dogs could have made pretty good money.

Geezer
03-14-2005, 07:08 AM
I rest my case.

God bless and y'all be mindful out there.

Gabriel Suarez
03-14-2005, 07:32 AM
Jujutsuka,

I just finished two days with knife great Tom Sotis. He and I demoed a drill that is set to develop your ferocity, and almost a hunger for the other man's utter destruction (I used to call it monster training back in the day). It gave the other attendees a picture into that world.

Tom says, "Your knife already has a point and an edge, but YOU must give it the teeth". Same goes here. Violence above knowledge. Ferocity above technical skill.

Bri Thai
03-14-2005, 10:37 AM
But there is a cancer that riddles the majority of individuals and organisations alike. And that is complacency.

Looks like complacency won again.

Steve Camp
03-15-2005, 05:24 AM
Accused Gunman's Getaway Prompts Questions (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=533&e=3&u=/ap/20050315/ap_on_re_us/courthouse_shooting_manhunt)

Atlanta Shooting Suspect in Court Today (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=533&e=1&u=/ap/20050315/ap_on_re_us/courthouse_shooting)

I wonder if a single, 50+ year old, 5ft tall female deputy will be escorting this 6'1", 200lb male (ex-college football linebacker) all by herself to the court room today?

I also wonder if he get's to dress in a suit and tie so as to not prejudice anyone.

Wulfenite
03-15-2005, 10:40 AM
I wonder if a single, 50+ year old, 5ft tall female deputy will be escorting this 6'1", 200lb male (ex-college football linebacker) all by herself to the court room today?

I also wonder if he get's to dress in a suit and tie so as to not prejudice anyone.
The video I saw on Fox this AM had him in a room so full of LEO's he was having difficulty steping around them to get to court. None that I saw were women and only one was shorter than Nichols; but even the short Deputy didnt look like a wuss. He went into court in a jump suit with a waist chain and ankle gear. Of course this is just a hearing (no jury present) so there's no reason to demeand he appear in a suit. I doubt this will go in front of a jury so I'd suspect he's seen the last of tropical weight wool.