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marshall
02-15-2005, 04:47 AM
This happened last Sunday in NY state. Fox News reported three gunmen dressed in black, randomly shooting their way through a mall. Turned out to be just one guy, and he didn't do much damage. But the scenario is interesting. What do you do if you are ccw, shopping in a mall. Suddenly you hear screams, see people running, and realize there is a shooter about 50 feet in front of you. What do you do? 1) Turn and run? 2) Advance and attack? Question, if you shoot and kill the bad guy, what are the cops and the courts going to do to you later? You PROBABLY could have run and escaped unscathed. This really happened, and will happen again some day in some other mall, and you may be there. What is the RIGHT course of action? Is the moral thing to do different from the legally wise thing to do?

Gabriel Suarez
02-15-2005, 05:00 AM
In NY, you can't do much unless he is within arm's reach when the shooting begins. NY is a communist state that denies its citizens the rights recognized by the constitution. Thus you could not have shot him with a gun you are not allowed to have. Perhaps if you had a knife and he was within reach you could have done something, but....????

Interesting to note that there are more cops in NY than any other state, yet none where there to prevent this event. I wonder how it would have played out in Arizona, Florida or Texas??

You ask me, the bad guy is only partially responsible for the deaths. The rest of the responsability goes to the state of NY for denying its citizens the right of self-defense.

Deaf Smith
02-15-2005, 07:21 PM
This happened last Sunday in NY state. Fox News reported three gunmen dressed in black, randomly shooting their way through a mall. Turned out to be just one guy, and he didn't do much damage. But the scenario is interesting. What do you do if you are ccw, shopping in a mall. Suddenly you hear screams, see people running, and realize there is a shooter about 50 feet in front of you. What do you do? 1) Turn and run? 2) Advance and attack? Question, if you shoot and kill the bad guy, what are the cops and the courts going to do to you later? You PROBABLY could have run and escaped unscathed. This really happened, and will happen again some day in some other mall, and you may be there. What is the RIGHT course of action? Is the moral thing to do different from the legally wise thing to do?

Sure would not charge him. Maybe dive for cover and then try to figure out just what is what before firing. In Texas there may well be someone in the mall with a CCW at the time. There's enough of us now.

And being Texas, presuming you didn't cap some kid behind the BG or screw up in some other fashion, you would get a medal (ok, maybe in Austin some liberals might cry, but not many other places.)

As for NY, they can keep their laws. Last time I drove through, going to Vermont, I didn't stop even to use a john. Just drove right on through till I got just inside Vermont (dead tired at night) and got the first bed-n-breakfast I and my wife could find (and packed heat the rest of the week with out a peep from anybody.)

Of course, now I can carry in Virginia and NC and my PA and NH permits cover more. But back then once I got past Georgia, I had to lock everthing up in the trunk, per fed rules, and just close shop till I hit Vermont.

Nigel_C
02-16-2005, 05:30 AM
Gabe, I think I have an Idea how it would Go in AZ. In FL it would go something like this.


Get family to safety if possible or into a store for cover. Tell wife to get in back room with kids and dial 911.

Try to "control my target" sound familiar ? by moving into the best position available to me that does not expose me to the threat. If he has been actively shooting.. well then it's front sight, press. Repeat as needed.

Of course malls are so big these days and so many large open spaces, closing distance on the shooter may or may not be possible. But thats OK.. you can hit a man size target at 50 yards right... :o ?

Also I'm now wondering if he had friends, malls are usually full of people , easy to hide in the crowd..but something is telling me it would be emptying quickly.

Of course my other choice would be to get my family out of the mall, to safety and call the police. Too many variable come into play to say which one is the right choice. It's stupid to show up to a machine gun shoot with a pistol especially if you don't know exactly what is going on.

john452
02-16-2005, 06:50 AM
I live in New York State and we do have a retreat law so I would not charge a shooter. I would attempt to extract my family and myself from the kill zone. I do have a NY CCW (yes we do have them). I made up my mind along time ago I carry to protect my loved ones and myself. Anytime you can avoid a shooting situation I think that's a good idea. The souls who went out in public without a gun made that choice. As a ccwer we are not everyones salvation. Be cautious....John

OdieWon
02-16-2005, 07:07 AM
As a ccwer we are not everyones salvation. Be cautious....John

I agree with this to a point. When it becomes OBVIOUS that this guy is randomly shooting people, women, children, whomever, the warrior is not going to let it go unanswered. I'll not get into exactly "what" should be done, because we can play "what if" all day long. We don't have enough info to know exactly WHAT to do.

But before I stand by and watch some idiot smoke people at random, women and children, I'll, to quote TXCop in another thread, "flip him off and die like a viking".

I don't know the other quote or the author exactly, but it basically says "all that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to DO nothing".

We all have to have standards to live by. And to make some decisions in advance is only prudent.

IMVHO, to be a warrior, it not only means the willingness to defend oneself, but also the innocent.

k2ue
02-16-2005, 07:47 AM
In NY, you can't do much unless he is within arm's reach when the shooting begins. NY is a communist state that denies its citizens the rights recognized by the constitution. Thus you could not have shot him with a gun you are not allowed to have. Perhaps if you had a knife and he was within reach you could have done something, but....????

Interesting to note that there are more cops in NY than any other state, yet none where there to prevent this event. I wonder how it would have played out in Arizona, Florida or Texas??

You ask me, the bad guy is only partially responsible for the deaths. The rest of the responsability goes to the state of NY for denying its citizens the right of self-defense.

Uh, Gabe -- NY is not all NYC -- we have CCW upstate, and outside NYC we can shoot to stop a violent crime per the statutes, so if the guy has the already injured somebody there's a decent chance of being seen as a good citizen, instead of perp #2.

Kobra
02-16-2005, 07:51 AM
Uh, Gabe -- NY is not all NYC -- we have CCW upstate, and outside NYC we can shoot to stop a violent crime per the statutes, so if the guy has the already injured somebody there's a decent chance of being seen as a good citizen, instead of perp #2.

I lived in the Binghamton, NY (Broome County) area of Upstate NY for most of my life. Some years before I left I spoke with the issuing officer for the county. He informed me that they had never issued a CCW and probably never would. Hunting and Target is about the only permit you'll get issued in Broome County. Gabe is right in his perception of just what NY is.

Kobra

k2ue
02-16-2005, 08:01 AM
I lived in the Binghamton, NY (Broome County) area of Upstate NY for most of my life. Some years before I left I spoke with the issuing officer for the county. He informed me that they had never issued a CCW and probably never would. Hunting and Target is about the only permit you'll get issued in Broome County. Gabe is right in his perception of just what NY is.

Kobra

Not true in the Rochester area -- we have many unrestricted CCW's -- mine was #617 way back in 1972. We have a regular Concealed Carry shoot Tuesday nights at Genesee Conservation League, and will host two Insights Training defensive pistol events this year.

MTS
02-16-2005, 09:50 AM
I don't know the other quote or the author exactly, but it basically says "all that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to DO nothing".
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."

That quote is generaly ascribed to Edmund Burke however it is not to be found in any of his documented writings. The closet quote to that found is;

"When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle."

BILLYBOB
02-16-2005, 12:46 PM
In NY, you can't do much unless he is within arm's reach when the shooting begins. NY is a communist state that denies its citizens the rights recognized by the constitution. Thus you could not have shot him with a gun you are not allowed to have. Perhaps if you had a knife and he was within reach you could have done something, but....????

Interesting to note that there are more cops in NY than any other state, yet none where there to prevent this event. I wonder how it would have played out in Arizona, Florida or Texas??

You ask me, the bad guy is only partially responsible for the deaths. The rest of the responsability goes to the state of NY for denying its citizens the right of self-defense.

Gabe you have the wisdom of Solomon. I couldn't agree with you more. Great response.

I live in Philadelphia, PA, and they are a little more on the victim's side here. I carry everyday, everywhere. It's not hard to get a CCW permit here. As long as you're of age, of sound mind, and your record's clean, you got it. They don't even recommend that you get training before purchasing a firearm. My dad's a retired LEO, and he has always advised me to get a weapon when I was of legal age. With the crime rate in this city, I guess they really don't have a problem with the average Joe being capable of defending himself against the numerous BG's that roam the streets here.

In that mall situation, I would have tried to get away but if he was aiming in my direction and I had no choice but to retaliate, I would have done so without hesitation.

the_scribe
02-16-2005, 05:00 PM
Is it illegal to possess a so-called assault firearm in NY state like an AK or an AR-15, or is it just like the recently expired federal assault firearms law?

k2ue
02-16-2005, 05:40 PM
Is it illegal to possess a so-called assault firearm in NY state like an AK or an AR-15, or is it just like the recently expired federal assault firearms law?

NY is like TWO states, NYC and everywhere else. I can't speak for NYC, but outside NYC there is no problem with an AK or AR-15, as long as they are not full auto. Some municipalities have restrictive ordinances, but nothing statewide.

Kobra
02-16-2005, 07:29 PM
As far as I know NY state has an AWB of its own. Here is some stuff from www.packing.org.

New York State requires a license for simple possession as well as for concealed carry. The Court Of Appeals ruled that restrictions on carry licenses, while administrative in nature, are allowable. Premise licenses as well as carry licenses restricted for sporting purposes are near shall issue, although difficult to obtain in certain counties (and the City of New York). Unrestricted carry licenses are easy to obtain or near impossible, depending on which county you apply in.

High Capacity Magazines or Feeding Devices.

It is a class D felony to manufacture, transport, dispose of, or possess a large capacity ammunition feeding device, which N.Y. Penal Law 265.00(23)defines as "a magazine, belt, drum, feed strip, or similar device, manufactured after September thirteenth, nineteen hundred ninety-four, that has a capacity of, or that can be readily restored or converted to accept, more than ten rounds of ammunition." Section 265.02.

Now me again:

In NYS permits are issued by the county Issuing Officer. Therefore, the difficulty or ease by which permits are obtained differs from county to county--unlike AZ. Thus, I would disagree that the state is divided between NYC and the rest of the state. Rather it is divided well beyond that by county.

Scroll down and look at this map of NY:

http://www.packing.org/state/index.jsp/new+york

This from the Brady Campaign website:

2000
New York - The law established criminal sanctions for the possession and sale of assault weapons and large capacity ammunition feeding devices, mirroring the federal law. It made it a felony to possess or sell an assault weapon or large-capacity ammunition magazine that was manufactured after the federal law took effect.
http://www.bradycampaign.org/facts/faqs/?page=awb

In a nutshell, while there are counties in NY that are showing a desire to once again embrace American values, New York is a Socialist province.

Kobra

Nobody
02-16-2005, 08:02 PM
This happened last Sunday in NY state. Fox News reported three gunmen dressed in black, randomly shooting their way through a mall. Turned out to be just one guy, and he didn't do much damage. But the scenario is interesting. What do you do if you are ccw, shopping in a mall. Suddenly you hear screams, see people running, and realize there is a shooter about 50 feet in front of you. What do you do? 1) Turn and run? 2) Advance and attack? Question, if you shoot and kill the bad guy, what are the cops and the courts going to do to you later? You PROBABLY could have run and escaped unscathed. This really happened, and will happen again some day in some other mall, and you may be there. What is the RIGHT course of action? Is the moral thing to do different from the legally wise thing to do?

1) Turn and Run?

No. I am not Superman. I cannot outrun a "speeding bullet".

2) Advance and attack?

I think move to cover and shoot at the bad guy simultaneously.

Guantes
02-16-2005, 10:15 PM
I have never been to New York, but here in N. Idaho I would suspect that several ccwers along with myself would engage while others went to their "rig" for rifles.

RES
02-17-2005, 07:47 AM
In NYS "post ban" rifles are still legal, as are all "pre ban" weapons and hi cap magazines.
In NYC nearly everything is illegal, including a 10 round magazine for the Ruger 10-22.
In Upstae NY it is very easy to get a pistol permit and, unless the laws have changed, they are all good for carry, as oposed to the restricted permits issued by the NYPD.
I am not a fan of these laws, BTW, just the messenger.

Yup; and don't forget, our licenses up here are good for life.

RES
02-17-2005, 08:02 AM
As far as I know NY state has an AWB of its own. Here is some stuff from www.packing.org.

Kobra:

Be careful with packing.org's advice about New York. On several occasions, I've seen information provided that, while not being completely untrue, tends to be exaggerated somewhat.

This map on their website, for example, is somewhat questionable. I'm not familiar with a rash of restricted licenses being issued in Broome county, for example. Four of the "yellow" counties on the map, issue a restricted license for a "probationary period", after which the person can re-apply and obtain full carry. I don't agree with that "probation" policy, but it's a different story from what packing.org portrays.

I know of at least one individual, who got himself a restricted license when he could have gotten an unrestricted license, because he followed the generic advice of stating "carry for hunting, hiking, target shooting" on the application, and that's exactly what the judge gave him. If he'd have said "carry for personal protection", there would have been no problem.

Remember also, that the "details" provided by packing.org, are provided by individual members- so, as always with internet forums, "YMMV".

I'll state it again, I'm not a proponent of the laws the way they stand, but we're better able to try and change things, if we have an accurate assessment of where things stand.

Cold War Scout
02-17-2005, 11:26 AM
After having heard the Columbine 911 tapes from the school library, in which all those kids were executed hiding under the library tables poursuant to the librarian's directions, I have told my daughters that nothing good can be gained from staying in the vicinity of approaching gunfire. There is a good possibility that some of those kids would be alive today if they had followed their insticnts to flee and not listened to the librarian (it was obvious from the tapes that several were going to make arun for it when the librarian told them to stay under the table and all you can hear in the background is the sound of bang, bang, bang drawing ominously closer).

TroopSarge
02-19-2005, 01:00 AM
I am a State Trooper here in the Liberal Republic of NY, and I used to work in Kingston, and the Hudson Valley Mall where this shooting occurred was a regular part of my patrol area. My own personal opinion is that New York's restrictive gun laws are ridiculous, and I definitely support the Second Amendment completely. I know what a realistic response time is for the police, and I think that armed, law-abiding citizens are often the only hope for all the "sheeple" during the opening moments of a situation like the mall shooting. The only bright spot was that no one was killed, but now more taxpayer money will be spent to incarcerate and put this POS on trial......


TroopSarge

michael
02-19-2005, 09:03 AM
I'm your huckleberry.http://www.warriortalk.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

I like your tag line, that's my favorite movie.

Welcome to WT!

You hit the nail on the head in that now we have to pay to try this POS.

Steve Camp
02-19-2005, 09:28 AM
Ummmm.....

You are not suggesting that any good citizen that puts down permanently a POS such as this during the commission of the act should be entitled to some percentage, say 25%, of the costs saved by not having to try this POS, are you? :rolleyes:

I dare say that this sort of crap might come to a halt overnite... Oh the horror... all the policeman, jailers, assistant DAs, defense attorneys, emergency room doctors, nurses etc. that would be put out of work... when everyone started behaving civilly again...

TroopSarge
02-20-2005, 12:20 AM
I'm your huckleberry.http://www.warriortalk.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

I like your tag line, that's my favorite movie.

Welcome to WT!

You hit the nail on the head in that now we have to pay to try this POS.

Thanks for the welcome! I agree, that movie is sweet...one of the best ever made, in my opinion...
"Skin that smoke-wagon and see what happens..."


TroopSarge

MTS
02-20-2005, 04:50 AM
Thanks for the welcome! I agree, that movie is sweet...one of the best ever made, in my opinion...
"Skin that smoke-wagon and see what happens..."


TroopSarge
In Vino Veritas. :D

Kobra
02-27-2005, 09:41 PM
New York is moving closer to Socialism (if this is possible) if the following is true.

New York Assault Weapons Bill To Be Heard On March 1

Friday, February 25, 2005: A bill that would drastically expand the state`s current assault weapons ban by redefining what constitutes an "assault weapon" will be heard in the Assembly Codes Committee on March 1. In addition to expanding the ban, A 2466 would require those who currently own any firearm deemed an "assault weapon" to register it, render it permanently inoperable or turn it in to the police.

Those who choose to register their firearms would be subject to an additional NICS check and would be required to have the firearm tested for entry in to the state`s ballistic imaging program. Last week, we reported that Senator Eric Schniederman (D-31) introduced S 2445, which also seeks to expand the assault weapons ban by outlawing many more guns by name and adding specific features to the definition of "assault weapon." Please contact your state Assembly member and Senator today and ask him or her to oppose A 2466 and S 2445!

Glad to be out of that state, Kobra :-)

RES
02-27-2005, 09:47 PM
New York is moving closer to Socialism (if this is possible) if the following is true.

New York Assault Weapons Bill To Be Heard On March 1

Yeah, it's true; it's also the fourth or fifth time this bill has come up before the Senate and/or Assembly, and each time, it's been vetoed.

NYprolatariat
03-11-2005, 08:42 PM
I've lived in this socialist Mecca for most of my life. This is what you get when you turn your back on God's ways.We can all say it was liberal this or liberals that but in Pre WW2 NAZI Germany the war was lost way before Hitler ever took power.It was in the churches and universities that the people became"enlightened" over time which paved the way for someone like Hitler to take over! We are ripe for just such a person(gee I wonder if it's Hillary?).This country as a whole has lived on the coattails of its Christian fore fathers for way too long and it will show when the next crisis hits us. Those of you who live in less socialistic (notice I said less not none!!) places will eventually be crowded out as we send our youth to the Gov't school system for indoctrination and then go into huge debt to send them off to college for the final nail in their coffin! This is what we get when we place gov't as our savior rather than GOD. Even well meaning people will do it thinking they're doing their "patriotic duty" in doing so.Socialism has been the predominant idea in this country for over 100 years now and we are finally reaping what our great grandfathers have sowed! I'm sure when the money system collapses(and it will soon!) there will be many crying out for someone to save them and I'm sure some Hitler-like figure will only be happy to step forward to save us from whatever crisis they create. So while we here in NY are under very oppressive type rule,there will come a time when it will creep in everywhere,even in freer type areas like down south and out west.Remember while we train to fight the bad guys who commit these type of crimes,it is gov't who have killed (over 200 million people this last century alone) more of us good guys than all the criminals in the world have ever done! So those of you who think you have it well now get ready for the collapse of this roman empire of ours and get ready for the judgement that awaits a people who neglect the ways of their wise and Christian fore fathers.

WOLF220
03-11-2005, 09:35 PM
In a way, I feel bad for you guys that live in that commie city/state. I moved from a pretty sickening state myself (MA) to be free. Way up to the northern part of Maine. But NYPRO you're right, it is slowly creeping in even up here. Once in a while I will come across someone who is against gun ownership. Nothing chaps my ass more! Especially where I live there is no local police dept. so if LE has to get involved it is going to be the county sheriff or the state police. Their only about an hour away! The only thing we can do as warriors is to constantly train and be ready, whether it be to protect our families or at the right time to protect our freedoms..........Maybe I'll move to Switzerland or Finland next. :D Oh back to the main thread, up here, if I felt my life or my families lives were in danger, I would've put his brains all over the food court.

NYprolatariat
03-12-2005, 06:08 AM
It turned out that the BG was trying to commit suicide by cop. I'm sure if someone had interupted his little temper tantrum by splattering his brains on the food court they would've been hung out to dry for denying him his right to be allowed to kill himself(ala the right to die crowd!!!). Then of course you would be charged with creating a Bio-hazard at the food court and also scarring all the "children"(remember Hillary lives here!!) for life and they would need counseling for life by only State certified counselors all at your expense of course!! It's fine mess we've created for ourselves where Bad is Good and "there is no joy in Mudville". Just remember...what happens here will come to you soon as NY& Cal set the pace for the rest of the country!!I can only hope that during the next Civil war..my southern bretheren will travail this time!! I will do my best at bringing the war to here by fighting behind enemy lines!!

dhopp
03-12-2005, 04:11 PM
What do you do if the perp is advancing on you and shooting at others en route? Agree that protecting ones family is paramount and exiting out if possible but faced with an advancing attacker, no family present and surrounded by glass storefronts a dynamic response may be required.

Any suggestions on that response if required? If no rifle cover and just glass windows against a riflemando you run laterally and shoot or hit the floor or what?