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View Full Version : 7.62x39 vs. .300 Whisper



Ma Deuce
12-10-2009, 03:59 PM
Does anyone have any experience with this matchup using subsonic loads? I understand the basis for the idea of the .300 was to be able to run it through an AR platform. Discounting that, what are the pros and cons?

I am sure that there are some technical reloading details that are involved.

Whisper
12-10-2009, 05:02 PM
You can load the .300 Whisper to be about as tame as you could possibly want. There's plenty of good handloading data available on the Web. (Note that .300 Fireball and .300/.221 is the same cartridge.) Be aware that if you want to shoot both subsonic and supersonic loads you will need an adjutable gas block on your AR -- I have a JP on mine and it's great -- and you'll need to think about whether you want to shoot mainly heavy bullets or light bullets so you can choose a barrel with an appropriate twist rate. One barrel won't shoot 125-gr bullets and 220-gr bullets equally well.

Sorry, I have no experience with subsonic 7.62x39.

Cheers,
DR

Dan-O
12-10-2009, 05:16 PM
300 whisper is somewhat of a wildcat that will require a specialized platform to shoot it out of. (Specially made AR or Bolt gun)

On the other hand:

http://www.ebr-inc.net/762x39JackhammerSubsonic.html

Off the shelf 762x39 that you can fire from your Fuller AK! :D

Rusty Phillips
12-10-2009, 06:40 PM
both shoot 30 cal bullet at roughly same velocities for like for like weights
my thinking is that for the most part - both will do largely the same things....


IMO you need to decide if you want to go AK or AR platform
the more accurate one will be a lot more costly (rifle, mags, ammo cost per round)

DragonFire
12-10-2009, 07:59 PM
Depends on the application. The 300 Whisper is far more versatile, accurate and can do everything the 7.62X39 can and most things it cannot. The 300 is a super accurate & deadly quite round - that can be loaded SUPERSONIC for all those times when you don't need to be quiet. Think super quiet sniping out to 600+ yards and upclose CQB in an M4 sized rifle - only a lot more powerful.

Sure, you can get a subsonic 7.62 & suppress an AK, but it's not even close to the 300.

http://www.sskindustries.com/cartridges.htm

http://www.300whisper.com/




300 whisper is somewhat of a wildcat that will require a specialized platform to shoot it out of. (Specially made AR or Bolt gun)
Not anymore. Rifles of various platforms, ammo, brass, reloading supplies & platforms are widely available - no it's not available or like an AK47 and it does cost more than 7.62.

Dan-O
12-10-2009, 09:05 PM
Depends on the application. The 300 Whisper is far more versatile, accurate and can do everything the 7.62X39 can and most things it cannot. The 300 is a super accurate & deadly quite round - that can be loaded SUPERSONIC for all those times when you don't need to be quiet. Think super quiet sniping out to 600+ yards and upclose CQB in an M4 sized rifle - only a lot more powerful.

Sure, you can get a subsonic 7.62 & suppress an AK, but it's not even close to the 300.

http://www.sskindustries.com/cartridges.htm

http://www.300whisper.com/


Not anymore. Rifles of various platforms, ammo, brass, reloading supplies & platforms are widely available - no it's not available or like an AK47 and it does cost more than 7.62.

To say that "It's Available" is not the same as 100+ Million Units sold.
300 Whisper is still "Exotic"
Dont believe me? Look at a major firearms distributors catalog or big name retailer.
See many 300 whisper rifles? Ammo??
Didnt think so.:cool:

While I would agree that 300 Whisper is more versatile and capable, it is still an "Enthusiast" round.

My comments would fall into the "Pro" category for the 762x39 and more of the "Con" category for 300 Whisper, at least for the stuff I am enthusiastic about. (Easy availability of Guns and Ammo without having to re-load or find a specialized weapons platform to whack stuff quietly)


To be fair,
If you are not comparing 300 whisper against 762x39 it is a pretty awesome capability if you are willing to make the commitment.

Rusty Phillips
12-10-2009, 11:53 PM
a very informative 7.62x39 subson link is

http://members.shaw.ca/cronhelm/DevelopSubsonic.html

there is quite a bit of info there.....

I really do think it is primarily a choice of 1. how much money you can afford to spend and 2. whether you want to shoot an AR or an AK.....

220 grain subsonic ammo for each is about the same cost and ballistics if you load your own (corbon 300 whisper subson is quite a bit cheaper than EBR jackhammer)

supersonic ammo for each has about the same ballistics (125 grain ~ 2300-2400 fps) - and if loaded with the same bullets at similar speeds you will get comparable terminal ballistics..... but obviously x39 will have far cheaper surplus ammo options.....

Rusty Phillips
12-11-2009, 07:09 AM
another good link is (referenced in the other link above)

http://guns.connect.fi/gow/arcane1.html

you can spend a couplle days reading thru that stuff and still not get to the end

PT Kekkonnen's fix for stuck bullets was a soft lead bullet with lots of lube - his experiences being that stuck bullets are due to jacketed bullets not obturating or sealing the bore and gasses escaping - leaving barrel obstructed..... problem was not so much dirty bores, as it is DRY bores

there also is the other problem that a 220 grain bullet designed for 300 winchester mag velocities will not deform in the least when pushed at subsonic velovities and you get the poor terminal performance on mid sized doe that Red Jacket reported in his thread "subsonics in the field"

http://warriortalk.com/showthread.php?t=58050

Ma Deuce
12-11-2009, 07:48 AM
My question was intended to be platform independent.

To my thinking, the two cartridges should be nearly identical, save the case taper and rim. So what is it that makes the .300 such a good cartridge? Couldn't the 7.62 be made to match its performance with the same amount of attention that the .300 has had to load development?

Rusty Phillips
12-12-2009, 07:20 AM
My question was intended to be platform independent.

To my thinking, the two cartridges should be nearly identical, save the case taper and rim. So what is it that makes the .300 such a good cartridge? Couldn't the 7.62 be made to match its performance with the same amount of attention that the .300 has had to load development?

you cant get this to a platform independent discussion, because there is a huge difference in the barrels on the two platforms

the 300 whisper barrel from ssk* has a 1 in 8" barrel vs the AK's 1 in 9.45" 240mm) (*Thompson Contenders in 300 whisper are 1 in 10)

Plus the whisper has a real .308 barrel and one would assume has a fairly tight chamber compared to the .311 and milspec chamber in your typical AK)

edit -
unless you go to a custom 1 in 8 twist .308 AK barrel you are only going to be able to stabilize the short blunt 220 grain round nose bullets of the Jackhammer and not the longer 220 and 240 grain spitzers of the whisper.... then there's the question of whether or not you can seat the longer spitzer bullets in the x39 case and still get the cartridges into the AK magazine.

how much does that accuracy (of the whisper over the EBR Jackhammer) and super BC of the pointed 240 grainer (over the EBR 220 grain SP) really matter? How much $$$ are you willing to spend?

Ma Deuce
12-13-2009, 08:05 PM
I was trying to think more along the lines of a Contender in .300W vs. one in 7.62x39. The differences in barrel twist is one of the details I was hoping to glean from this discussion. Are there any others that I should be aware of?

DragonFire
12-13-2009, 09:28 PM
You really need to read the info about the 300 Whisper. Otherwise, you'll never understand the pros & cons, applications and advantages. Barrel twist rates are the least of concerns.

As stated, no you can't find 300 Whispers lying around the Globe like the AK47 - (even though it was developed as a result of that little war in a place now called Zimbabwe) But it is a caliber that is in stock and ready to ship - it's nolonger a wildcat that has to be created by fireforming your own brass & working up handloads like it was in the early 90's

However, the 300 is more accurate, more versatile and more all around awesome than the standard 7.62X39mm.

A Contender? As in a single shot? I don't believe in single shot firearms. Got an AR15??? Then simply buy an UPPER in 300 Whisper and put it on your existing LOWER. It uses the SAME MAGAZINES. Add a Suppressor and you'll be ready to do EVERYTHING the AK47 can and CAN'T. The 7.62x39 simply does not offer the VERSATILITY.

As stated, sure you can make subsonic 7.62 and even suppress an AK. But it ain't the same as running the 300 Whisper in an AR15. If you wan't bolt actions & single shots, then you really need to do some homework as that would be a much more specialized application. Why? Because you could buy a standard bolt rifle in .308 or similar and handload all sorts of crazy loads. And a Contender pistol? in 7.62X39 seems somewhat pointless to me.

boom-stick
12-14-2009, 05:26 AM
I'm no expert on this but having been weighing the pro's and con's of each of these for myself for some time now, it comes down to cost and how much you want to spend.
The .300 whisper is becoming quite popular over here in the UK as an alternative calibre AR for use on indoor ranges but is still quite expensive.
But a subsonic 7.62x39 in either an AIA bolt gun or an AK is quite appealing as you could buy both the AIA and an AK for the price of an AR in .300 whisper and have money left over over to buy a press dies etc....

On the flip side of all this I'm also looking into having an AK or AIA re-barrelled into 9x39, despite the cost of the barrel dies and brass I'm sure it will be a cheaper option than a whisper. Just my 2p worth, because I like walking a different path and a 9x39 AK with a can is quite different and very appealing.

Dan

will36
02-18-2010, 07:38 PM
I shoot a .312 dia. 180 grain round nose British 303 bullet in 7.62x39 brass. I use a magnum primer with 10 grains of trailboss powder. This will fill the case to the neck . You will not need any fillers with this powder.

I shoot it thru a H&R single shot thru a red jacket can. Its as quite as my AWC 10/22. I shot a deer maybe 100 yards from a friend and he didnt hear me at all.

I dont see you getting 600 yards out of ANY subsonic round for a clean kill. Maybe punch holes in paper at that range.


Edit: The friend was behind me. I didnt shot a deer near him. :)

DaveJames
02-19-2010, 05:35 PM
If your tthinking along the lines of a Contender go with the 300 W, the russian is to hot for the old model, you would have to go to the Encore according to the sources I talk with

If your really hot for the 300W call up SSK and talk with them, good guys and they play with several of the Whisper versions