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marshall
02-05-2005, 06:39 PM
How would you handle it? You are on a plane, at 20,000 feet, that has just been taken over by hijackers. Somehow they have handguns. You don't, because you and all the other passengers have been searched before getting on the plane. What do you do? Sit and wait and see what your fate is? Or somehow try to jump a bg and take away his weapon, and fight it out? Suggestions?

michael
02-05-2005, 07:31 PM
I think the days of "sit and wait" are long past. You must act, to do otherwise is to die like a coward. I prefer to die like a viking, if it comes to that. I'm never unarmed on a plane. I at least have my light, several solid steel ink pens, pencils, sturdy belt, boots on my feet, etc. You have to find a way to get one of the BG's close enough to you to quickly kill him and take his pistol. That's probably your only chance with multiple BG's. If a lot of other passengers are up for the fight, you could swarm them and overpower them. They can't kill everyone while they are worrying about getting pounded themselves. My personal preference would be to lure one of them close enough to me to plant a steel ink pen in his trachea and take his pistol.

Cisco
02-05-2005, 08:21 PM
I think the days of "sit and wait" are long past. You must act, to do otherwise is to die like a coward. I prefer to die like a viking, if it comes to that. I'm never unarmed on a plane. I at least have my light, several solid steel ink pens, pencils, sturdy belt, boots on my feet, etc. You have to find a way to get one of the BG's close enough to you to quickly kill him and take his pistol. That's probably your only chance with multiple BG's. If a lot of other passengers are up for the fight, you could swarm them and overpower them. They can't kill everyone while they are worrying about getting pounded themselves. My personal preference would be to lure one of them close enough to me to plant a steel ink pen in his trachea and take his pistol.

Great Post..

BWayne
02-05-2005, 08:29 PM
Ditto what Michael said. In addition, in this scenario, I think that you have to be prepared to go beyond what you would do to defend your home or defend yourself on the street. Normally, you can only use force to the degree and extent neccesary to prevent loss of life or injury. But in a hijacking scenario such as the one above, you have been thrust into the equivalent of a battlefield hand-to-hand scenario with no escape route. Yes, defending our lives is no different, but whereas in the home or on the street, we no longer use force once the BGs are 1)dead 2)seriously injured 3) escape 4) surrender. What I mean is: these BGs have taken over the plane and until they are 1)dead (shot, stomped, etc.) or 2)taped to a seat 3) or rendered unable to move (broken legs, broken back, broken neck, paralyzed, choking, etc. or a combination of these things) they are a threat whether they have a gun or not. If the passengers disarm them, the hijackers should be either shot, pounded into the floor until they are dead or until they are nothing but a bloody crippled mess on the floor, or taped up if they surrender.

Ninor
02-05-2005, 08:55 PM
I agree with you about "sitting and waiting" being a thing of the past but a steel pen in the trachea isn't going to kill your man.

Killing techniques used to be a part of the traditional martial arts curricculum but sadly it's a dying art (no pun intended) due to the propensity of todays instructors to teach watered down sports versions of the original.

Some of us still teach it...but pens in tracheas aren't going to do it amigo.

N

Slow-almost-smooth
02-05-2005, 09:53 PM
For better AND worse, there are many improvised weapons in the back of an airliner. The BGs will be creative, you must be also. Use your imagination as you stand in lines and travel enroute. Don't ask the crew questions about such things unless you would like to meet Feds upon your arrival.
My best guess for the BGs would be clandestine edged weapons. I don't need to spell out the type for this board.
Don't count on the pilots for help. Even if they are armed, they won't open the door untill the aircraft is on the ground and disabled.
Preventing the a/c from becoming a weapon is the #1 priority.

Guantes
02-05-2005, 10:14 PM
I am not sure myself, could you get enough penetration with a steel pen in the eye socket to be lethal?

marshall
02-06-2005, 05:15 AM
Just wondering, of course, but will security folks at check in actually allow you to take a nice steel ball point pen on board? I know they are getting tough on belts. I know of a fellow who had to leave his belt in the USA, and land beltless in Europe, one hand holding up his pants! :) He had a large cowboy belt buckle.

Cold War Scout
02-06-2005, 05:54 AM
When you say "taken over" do you mean they have somehow taken over the cockpit or are they possibly just issuing orders to fly the plane to Cuba or to Jordan? Since I asume the cockpit door is not going to be opened for them to enter, does this mean that what they really effectively have is control over the cabin? Would the difference between the two scenarios cause you to reconsider?

marshall
02-06-2005, 07:22 AM
Suppose they merely have control over the cabin. Then what?

Suppose they have the cockpit, too? Then what?

Does it make any difference from your viewpoint as a passenger? I don't see that it does. Either way YOU are slated to die, along with everyone else on the plane. :(

CPerez
02-06-2005, 07:38 AM
I disagree with you marshal, if they are trying to kill me I will do what ever it takes to take the out and use what ever is available, if they are in the cabin better yet they are not flying the plane so chances are better, if they have the cockpit at least if everything goes bad they will not use the plane and the passenger as a guided missile and kill other. I rather die fighting like a man and a warrior than die like a sheep. That is my point of view and believes probably not the same as your and I respect that, but for me I would fight like I have never fought before and send as many of them to their death.


Regards,
Carlos

GuilleCR
02-06-2005, 07:58 AM
What Carlos Said :D

Besides I know that some of you got to remember this 4 words

DIE LIKE A VIKING.....
G.S.

Peace to everybody
Guillermo

tb1911
02-06-2005, 08:38 AM
Check out this thread. We talked about this quite a bit:
http://suarezinternational.com/forums/upload/showthread.php?t=2564

Cold War Scout
02-06-2005, 09:45 AM
The fact of the matter is that the majority of hijackings of U.S. aircraft in the United States were round trips to Cuba and almost never did anybody get hurt. The fact of the matter is that since 9-11 there have been aircraft hijackings in which the plane cockpit was not taken control of and the plane flown not into a building. If I as a gringo were the only gringo on a Colombian airliner hijacked by FARC guerrillas, I seriously doubt that even one other passenger would rise up. If I were visiting Cuba and were taking a flight in-country, and it were hijacked by a group of people demanding to be flown to the U.S., I am not sure that the fear of being flown into a building would be there.

mustang
02-06-2005, 09:51 AM
In the old days (I love how everyone thinks this War on Terror is somehow "new"...uh, we were doing this crap back in Reagan's time, and Libya actually sponsored terror while Iraq was only supporting it, but whatever), the best thing to do during a hijack was, if the terrorists didn't attack the passengers en masse, wait until the plane hit the ground, and do you response there. Grabbing a Soviet weapon, figuring out the Cryllic type on the side to see if the safety was on, and snapping off precise shots that wouldn't take out anything the plane needs to fly is tough...so, if it was on the ground, who cared if a round went into something electrical? (not all ComBloc rounds are low-powered to avoid using brass shell casings).

Nowadays, the terrorists have a different agenda...partially, I'll bet, due to the fact we have SpecOps that can take them out once they are on the ground.

But, what will you be able to do? Remember, you are sitting down in a seat that may not be in the aisle. Even if it is, you have a narrow space, between the arm rest and the seat in front of you (assuming it is upright) to launch thru to attack your tango. In a post long ago, someone posted about wrapping their belt around their fist and using it as a flail. I strongly suggest anyone thinking this, try it out while someone times you. It isn't what we'd call a fast attack. Plus, have you measured the room in the aisles? Not much space to be flipping around a belt.

As someone else posted, pointy tools don't always take out immediately an attacker who is pumped up--and these hijackers are going to be pumped up, believe it. Stab 'em in the hollow of their collarbone, they will be pumping blood all over you and other passengers (who will freak out, what will they do then? stay out of your way?) after you start struggling for their weapon....assuming, of course, they are carrying guns. why shouldn't they just carry explosives, instead? its just as good a weapon for hijacking, and can't turned on them.

Its nice to say I'm going to die like a Viking, but I'm also murdering like a Viking. Collateral damage due to my counterattack can include everyone on the plane, and anyone on the ground where the plane crash-lands. Now, if I have reason to believe that is the plan anyway....well, I might as well attack. My goal then isn't to save lives, but to cut down on the number killed. Otherwise, I'd "recon the sit"--in other words, wait and see what is going to happen. If everyone's calm, the hijackers relax a tiny bit. If someone pulls a Rambo, well, that's a distraction I might be able to use :) In the end, its dangerous to get on those sardine cans...if pathogens in the recycled air don't get ya, something else might :)

michael
02-06-2005, 10:00 AM
I agree with you about "sitting and waiting" being a thing of the past but a steel pen in the trachea isn't going to kill your man.

Killing techniques used to be a part of the traditional martial arts curricculum but sadly it's a dying art (no pun intended) due to the propensity of todays instructors to teach watered down sports versions of the original.

Some of us still teach it...but pens in tracheas aren't going to do it amigo.

NSo I suppose the physician I have talked with is either a) stupid or b) lying? Do you have some secret knowledge that the doctor doesn't? If so, please share.:confused:
Granted, it's not an instantaneous death, but it is death. I have actually worked several cases and seen at least two deaths that I can recall where the trachea/windpipe area was either crushed or pierced where they have died. Did my eyes decieve me?

michael
02-06-2005, 10:01 AM
[QUOTE=marshall]Just wondering, of course, but will security folks at check in actually allow you to take a nice steel ball point pen on board? I know they are QUOTE]

Yes. I do it on a regular basis and have never had a problem.

CPerez
02-06-2005, 10:47 AM
As Cold War Scout said it all depends on the situation and variables in it. If it is an AQ tango and he tell us to call our family on the cellphone then one gets the idea that one either fight or die, if it is a guy that whants to go to Cuba or not go to Cuba or any other dictatorship country best bet is to sit, watch and evaluate. It all depends, the thing is not to give up all hope and think that one is alredy dead if the situation is a suicide type hijacking or if the tangos start killing people in the plane then action must be taken.

MTS
02-06-2005, 12:29 PM
I have actually worked several cases and seen at least two deaths that I can recall where the trachea/windpipe area was either crushed or pierced where they have died. Did my eyes decieve me?
Do you recall how fast incapacitaion was?

michael
02-06-2005, 02:17 PM
Do you recall how fast incapacitaion was?
No, they were both already dead. As best we could tell, it was probably minutes in both cases as we arrived pretty quickly. Neither was from an ink pen, but both were from blunt trauma to the trachea/windpipe area.

Cold War Scout
02-06-2005, 02:21 PM
A real good forearm shot or punch to somebody's throat could take their life, no? But is that the same blunt trauma brought about by stabbing a pen to their throat?

marshall
02-06-2005, 02:24 PM
I said: "Either way YOU are slated to die, along with everyone else on the plane."

I think CPerez misunderstood me, which is probably my fault, as not communicating well enough. I actually agree with CPerez' answer.

I don't mean, "I'm slated to die, so I won't try anything." I mean, "I'm slated to die, so I MIGHT AS WELL FIGHT." You can't get anymore dead than dead.

Ninor
02-06-2005, 02:29 PM
Michael,

Not to berate the medical field but when I had osteo as a kid the doctor told my parents I was going to die on two occasions...to the point where they had a priest in doing last rites. When I survived this they said I'd never walk again.

When I started walking they said I wouldn't run. When I ran they said I wouldn't be able to do sports. When I started doing Rugby and Judo they gave up.

Recently, after my motorbike accident, they said I wouldn't walk again without surgery. I'm back walking, working and running etc.

Point is, they're not infallible. I daresay I'm not the only person on this forum who's had similar experiences with doctors.

Now, speaking about doctors...I just pulled this off a medical website re holes in tracheas

Definition

A tracheotomy is a surgical procedure in which a cut or opening is made in the windpipe (trachea). The surgeon inserts a tube into the opening to bypass an obstruction, allow air to get to the lungs, or remove secretions. The term tracheostomy is sometimes used interchangeably with tracheotomy. Strictly speaking, however, tracheostomy usually refers to the opening itself while a tracheotomy is the actual operation.

So, having read the above I have no idea why the guys you saw with holes in their tracheas died. Maybe your medical friend can tell you.

Re the crushed trachea I agree with you...but your original post never mentioned crushing their trachea you said "you'd get close enough to plant a steel ink pen in their trachea"

I've been taught that exact move in 1st Aid courses in the military for the problems mentioned in the above medical snippet and it's not designed to kill anyone. Heck mate, shooting someone isn't guaranteed to kill them, why is sticking a pen in their neck going to do it?

Let's assume for a second your pen trick did work. Will it work instantaneously? So, if not, and I'm assuming here we all agree it wouldn't be instant, why not punch the f***er in the throat, take his gun, put it to his head, pull the trigger twice and kill him that way? You've got to get just as close with your pen as I do to punch.

MTS
02-06-2005, 02:41 PM
Ninor,

If I remember my first-aid correctly the difference between a medical hole in the tach and a defensive one is that the medical personal place a tube in the hole to keep it from closing up/collapsing.

CPerez
02-06-2005, 05:29 PM
Marshall sorry for the miss understanding.

Friends let us not focus on if a pen thru the throat will cause an instant death, no disrespect intended, serius damage is serius damage and broken or perforated wind pipe is serius damge but it is only part of the equation, lets focus on what weapons and tactics can be use when fighting inside a plane as a passenger, just like when on a gun fight one will shoot the tango to the ground one as well in H2H and in Knife fighting or what ever method is used must continue to attack until the thread is eliminated. Other than a broken neck or crushing the skull destroying the brain there is little than H2H can do to kill in an instant instead stab repeatedly to the neck, eyes and underarm looking for the big arteries and causing as much damage as fast as possible and not stop until the other guy quits, is incapacitated or dies from the injuries done by an aggressive and effective multiple strikes.

Thinking about this brings me a question what type of blow is the must likely to cause the tango to go unconscious?


PS. I stand corrected, my wife just noted out to me that severals technique I tought her in witch by stabbing the in the back of the neck where it connects to the cranium instant incapacitation can be done as well as a strong strike with an edge hand. I do love this woman.


Train hard and always be alert.

BWayne
02-06-2005, 05:43 PM
Thinking about this brings me a question what type of blow is the must likely to cause the tango to go unconscious?

Train hard and always be alert.

An excellent blow to use is an edge-of-hand blow to one of four places 1) to the throat 2) to the sides of the neck, running from the muscle in the side of the neck to the sides of the throat 3) the base of the skull if you are behind him. A heel of hand can also be used to the base of the skull. 4) on the side of the jaw, but on a spot where a line drawn from the corner of the mouth intersects the chin. A hard blow to any one of these places can cause death or unconciousness. Another good blow is the chin jab.

CPerez
02-06-2005, 05:52 PM
Those are really devastating blows Will. Those are the kind of blows that one must try to position ones self to give in a fight for life or death.

Can a hammer punch be as affective or will the greater impact surface of the hand reduce its effectiveness?

I just remember a video where Coops slaps a guy behind the neck and he was unconscious in an instant.

Ninor
02-06-2005, 07:17 PM
Mark,

You're quite right sir, but, if his trachea isn't damaged and the hole you put in it closes up won't he just go right on breathing? I would guess yes but I'm not a doctor.

Re knocking the guy unconscious yes, that's what I said to do from the get go then use his gun on him. Way quicker than trying to kill him with bare hands.

Re killing him with bare hand strikes. Much much harder than people think it is to kill someone with bare hands. Most fights where it happens it's because the victim hit their head on the kerb when they fell from being knocked out.

I've seen people punched in the throat, I've hit them in the throat, I've seen them rabbit chopped, punched in the temples, and all the other "guaranteed" kill shots...none of which killed anybody. Breaking the neck is by far the best option if you want to shut someone down quick and don't have a weapon to hand.

michael
02-06-2005, 07:30 PM
Ninor,

The difference between a tracheotomy and a steel ink pen placed in the trach is like comparing apples and oranges. As Mark said, a tracheotomy uses a tube to ALLOW air in and out, which will not happen when a large and sharp pen enters into the trach. There will be no tube to allow air in and out.

As far as docs go, I agree with you. Of course they are not always correct, but their opinions are decidedly more informed than someone who has not been to med school. Most of them do stints in the ER as part of their training, and from having worked in my younger days for 6.5 years in a hospital, the different injuries that are seen there boggles the mind.

I was also using the pen as an example of what could be done, and by no means did I say anything about stopping there. If you're going to try and kill someone, you don't stop and admire your work, you continue until he is not breathing any more. The trachea attack is a very devestating injury and it is doubtful that he would be able to defend himself while you finish him off. Sure you can continue on and break his neck if you wish. That's actually one of my favorite fatal techniques, but I was merely using the pen as an example of something quick and devestating.

michael
02-06-2005, 07:38 PM
[QUOTE=Ninor]Mark,

You're quite right sir, but, if his trachea isn't damaged and the hole you put in it closes up won't he just go right on breathing? I would guess yes but I'm not a doctor.

Actually if the hole closes up, there is a good chance that he will suffocate and it is highly unlikely that he would continue to breathe.

Re knocking the guy unconscious yes, that's what I said to do from the get go then use his gun on him. Way quicker than trying to kill him with bare hands.

This is where I disagree. My opinion, and it is just that but is based on 12 years as a cop in the housing projects seeing hundreds of serious fights and being in more than my share, is that it is difficult to knock someone out. Sure it can be done, but it usually requires repeated strikes unless you get extremely lucky. This is why something devestating is needed that will quickly put him down and out. If you engage in a fight where you have to repeatedly strike him, his buddies will probably kill you before you can finish him, take his gun and take them out.

michael
02-06-2005, 07:52 PM
www.steinergraphics.com/surgical/manual08.html (http://www.steinergraphics.com/surgical/manual08.html)

RUPTURE OF TRACHEA OR MAJOR BRONCHI

Rupture of the trachea or major bronchi is a serious injury with an overall estimated mortality of at least 50%. The majority (80%) of ruptures of bronchi are within 2.5 cm of the carina. The usual signs of tracheobronchial disruption are the following:
::Haemoptysis::Dyspnoea::Subcutaneous and mediastinal emphysema::Occasionally cyanosis.


Yamanda T, Aoki T, Kaneko K, Miyazawa M, Yoshida K, Haniuda M.

Second Department of Surgery, Shinshu University School of Medicine, Matsumoto, Japan.

A complete disruption of the cervical trachea due to blunt trauma is relatively rare. Because of dislocation of the disrupted trachea and/or bleeding into airway, this is a mostly fatal accident.

MTS
02-06-2005, 07:54 PM
In an tracheotomy a hole is not punched in the trach but is opened with a scapel and then the tube is place in.

I have to believe that the ramming of a pen or similar object into (perhaps even through) the trach would be much different. Even if it did not kill the person it should still affect the breathing cycle.

Ninor
02-06-2005, 07:58 PM
We're going to have to agree to disagree re the knockouts Michael. (which is ok because that's what forums are for :) )

What you were no doubt exposed to in the projects were untrained fighters wailing on one another. My experiences come from working on doors, crowd control, military police etc with guys who were highly trained. We got knockouts almost all the time.

I also don't know that you'd have to knock him out to get his gun. If you threw hot coffee on him, or slapped both his ears, or kicked him in the nads I would suspect taking his weapon away in the next few seconds wouldn't be hard.

A study was done by some mates of mine to see just how fast someone could fire their weapon after a flash bang was detonated in the room with them. Even knowing it was coming, squinting their eyes and covering their ears etc it still took 3.5 seconds to get shots on.

Now those attacks I mentioned aren't stun grenades to be sure but that split second you're hit with one of them you're not thinking about your weapon. So I still favor hitting him and using his weapon on him.

And Michael, all this is academic, between the two of us I'd say we'd get the f***er whether he stumbled away with a pen in his neck or blood pissing out his ear canals ;)

mikey177
02-07-2005, 03:47 AM
Is it safe to fire a gun inside an airplane? Can small arms fire penetrate the hull of an aircraft and cause rapid depressurization? Sorry guys, I know absolutely nothing about aircraft design, and I'm just basing my question on what I've seen in movies, so forgive me if it seems like a silly question to other folks.

michael
02-07-2005, 07:09 AM
Is it safe to fire a gun inside an airplane? Can small arms fire penetrate the hull of an aircraft and cause rapid depressurization? Sorry guys, I know absolutely nothing about aircraft design, and I'm just basing my question on what I've seen in movies, so forgive me if it seems like a silly question to other folks.
No. This has been discussed here before, so you might do a search for more info. The short answer is no.


Ninor,

Getting his gun is the main thing, so however we accomplish it doesn't really matter as long as we get it. No doubt the thugs I dealt with were untrained, though I would think they are no different than the majority you dealt with on the doors. You and your guys were trained, but so was I and others. In fairness, I rarely was trying to put them down and out as I wanted to arrest them "with the minimal amount of force necessary to affect the arrest". How's that for PC language.;) I was in quite a few scrapes where it was me or him, but the norm is someone who didn't want to be cuffed and put up mild resistance. There is a great deal of difference between what a bouncer does and what a cop does. I have seen one guy take a full power baseball bat swing to the side of the head and continue to fight, and I've also seen guys take multiple shots from batons, sticks, bottles, fists and feet to the head and continue the fight. However, the knockout's not the important thing, it's rattling his cage long enough to get his weapon, which is not difficult. My point was that you want to put a terrorist out permanently and quickly so that you can move on to the next one before they have time to direct thier fire at you, and a steel pen in the trachea should certainly do that. And yes, disagreement and discourse are what the forum in all about, so have at it.:cool:

Ninor
02-07-2005, 08:03 AM
Michael,

We're probably getting in to semantics again...a big downside of this form of comms. If you and I were having this conversation at a restaurant after a seminar we wouldn't be still discussing this.

When I said the pen isn't going to kill him - and I apologize for the confusion - I'm referring to instantly and guaranteed, which is what I assumed you were referring to in taking out the BG and getting his weapon.

So, upon reading your medical snippet it seems we're both right :) because the doc says fatal 50% of the time which is by no means guaranteed. I also wonder how fast that it is? Do you have any more info?


I ask because of the old fallacy that used to float round about palm heeling nose bones into brains. Now that actually can kill someone. If I pound someone small enough, there is a slight risk of driving a tiny splinter of bone (and not the nose per se as I know that's cartilage) into an eggshell thin piece of bone behind the eyes called the cribiform plate. That lets mucus into the fluid surrounding the brain and they can die as a result of infection if not treated within 24 hours. So, it can kill them, but 24 hours later, assuming they're not treated and assuming there's a large enough disparity in our sizes. Good to know but not very practical for taking out bad guys in hurry.

The PC language was very correct :D The Clintinites would be proud of you.

pete f
02-07-2005, 08:10 AM
Points to ponder. I have it on good authority that test have been done recently to test how fast a rapid dcompression can be done on purpose to basically put every one in the passgenger compartment to sleep from O2 deprivation and the answer is is less than a minute... and that conscious actions take several minutes to return once this is done.... even if pressure is returned quite quickly.

These test also so that it can be done fairly rapidly without sensation, remember the golfer Payne Stewart. His plane crashed with two experienced pilots aboard because the O2 level feel below safe levels without anyone noticing.

This leads one to understand that a cockpit breaching would have to be done almost instantly because as soon as the crew feels under threat they can start putting the cabin to sleep.

Also I never get on an airliner now without some form of weaponry. How? I always carry at least an extra pair of socks and a couple of rolls of quarters...for phone calls. wink wink. See the original movie Death Wish. I also carry a few feet of para cord bootlaces and a couple of 'biners for holding keys and such, an nice garrot.

A set of Cross pen and pencils. very strong stainless steel contruction. At least one roll of hockey tape.

All of this goes into my briefcase alongwith my lap top and my ballistic shield clipboard, and it sits between my legs the whole flight. I have never been questioned once about any of this once since 9/11 and I have maybe flown twenty five times in that period.

Alma the Younger
02-07-2005, 09:02 AM
I was speaking with a friend of mine who attended the SHOT Show. He said he spoke with Ted Nuggent who gave him a suggestion for a weapon he takes on planes all the time.

Ted carries an 8 ball (billard ball) and an extra sock in his carry on. When he passes through security, they always ask to see what's in his bag. He happily opens the bag and shows them the billard ball. When they ask about it he says, "That's my lucky 8-ball, I never travel without it." He says they usually roll their eyes a bit, but always let him pass.

When he gets to his seat he slips the 8-ball in the sock and ties a knot in the end, then places it in the seat pocket in front of him. Imagine swinging that at someone? There are very few places someone can take a hit with that without suffering a broken bone, not to mention nailing someone in the head.

My only doubt is that maybe Ted Nuggent could get away with that, but could we pass the TSA with a billard ball in our carry on?

419!

michael
02-07-2005, 09:17 AM
Ninor,

I don't believe a ruptured trachea would kill anyone fast. It will most probably put them down quickly, but it would take 3-4 minutes for the brain to be deprived of Oxygen long enough to cause death. It would be no different than dying from a strangle.

I don't believe there is much you can do that will cause instant death short of a brain stem shot with a high-caliber weapon. I once worked one case where a guy had a 4" steak knife buried above his ear and went home from the hosptial the same day. He killed the guy he was fighting with a boy scout knife by slicing the femoral artery of his opponent. They were both homeless drunks fighting over a quart of beer. The doc took the first guy to CT scan and removed the knife with a pair of pliers, stitched up the wound and sent him on to jail.

As far as breaking the nose and shoving the bone into the brain, it is my understanding that is a VERY rare occurrence. I had an academy instructor that had been a force recon marine for 4 tours in Vietnam who assured me this was hard to do. He said he tried it on numerous occaisions and discovered that you first have to break the bone/cartilage at the top of the nose between the eyes, and then strike upward and MAYBE you will get bone into the brain. He said he tried it numerous times and only once successfully. I don't doubt him as he is the most decorated NCO ever in my state and was a very deadly fellow. He taught our DT in the academy.

Nothing is absolute and nothing is guaranteed to kill quickly. I thought that was clear from my many posts on this forum, but I'll repeat it for those who don't know where I stand on these issues. Never assume that your opponent is down or out, continue the fight until he ceases all aggressive activity.

Ninor
02-07-2005, 11:55 AM
Again, I apologize for any confusion....

What you're NCO said is what I said. It can, and as exactly as he stated, but it's extremely rare. You have to break the bone first (that's why I mentioned it's nothing to do with the gristle in the nose but the bone at the top of the nasal cavity on a human skull), there has to be a size disparity, you have to get lucky, and he has to be deprived of medical care for 24-48 hours. Nothing I'd be willing to take a chance on.

I think we're all agreed the best solution is to stun the BG into insensibility, take his weapon and go to work.

N

michael
02-07-2005, 12:42 PM
[QUOTE=Ninor]Again, I apologize for any confusion.... QUOTE]

No problem. I don't mind debating anything as long as it is kept civil, and I think we accomplished that. ;)

MTS
02-07-2005, 12:48 PM
...could we pass the TSA with a billard ball in our carry on?
How about your lucky baseball?;)

CPerez
02-07-2005, 01:50 PM
Hi guys



I have spent the last 9 hours in airports and planes just to give a presentation to a client in Guatemala and travel back tomorrow to US soil. While traveling I started thinking about everything you guys posted, what I have learned in security seminars and made a small list of important points from all the sources.


Tips for Traveling

∑ Do not wear religious symbols
∑ Do not wear military or police symbols, clothing or equipment
∑ Ask for aisle and if possible in the front part of the aircraft
∑ Carry things that have a purpose and can be used as improvised weapons

In Case of Highjacking

∑ Be a grayman
∑ Reserve war face for attack




∑ Sit and observe
Analyze number of highjakers Type of weapons being used
Reason of highjaking if possible
Gather as much information as possible


∑ If highjaker intention is suicidal attack
Try to disarm attacker in case of firearmIf Explosives control the hands
Try to stack highjackers in case of more than 1
Attack should be by surprise and pure violent
Whatch out for sleepers


Improvised Weapons on Airplane



∑ Seatbelt
∑ Heavy magazine
∑ Eating utensils
∑ Seat cushion (shield)

Improvised Weapons one can take

∑ Steel toe or hiking boots
∑ Pencils, pens or PDA Stylus
∑ Heavy buckle belt
∑ Keys
∑ Flashlight
∑ Cane
∑ Briefcase (shield)
∑ Any heavy object that will not look out of place that can be placed inside of a sox (baseball, billiard ball, soap bar, perfume bottle Ö..etc)

In case of Rescue attempt

∑ Don't stand up
∑ get head down
∑ You will be treated as dangerous by assaulting force so donít resist or try to explain you are a hostage.
∑ Follow orders to the letter


Do to high security and the heighten alert that is present in most airports now a days the main weapon a tango might use is and edge weapon of some type, they will operate in more than one person so as to control the airplane and they will be highly motivated and trained. So this means that we will have to train ourselves to fight in confined spaces, fight multiple attackers, practice with improvised weapons (not only does one need to know them but also to use them) make a plan before attacking is that is the alternative, train to disarm both firearms and edge weapons, train hard, train harder and be alert. What would you guys add or remove from this list?



Stay safe and train hard.





Carlos

Jack Rumbaugh
02-07-2005, 03:44 PM
I like the billiard ball idea. You could train with a rubber ball in a sock and beat the crap out of each other and not get hurt.

I always buy a can of soda to take on with me. That and a blanket makes a nice flail.

michael
02-07-2005, 05:50 PM
Excellent list, Carlos. Very well thought out. The only thing I would add is to be on the lookout for tangos that are still sitting back in the crowd of passengers and not actively involved in the takeover. One of their favorite things to do is to keep a lookout that does not become involved unless necessary.

CPerez
02-07-2005, 06:23 PM
9 hours is a long time to think. The guy at the other guy was looking at me strangely as a uncliped the seatbelt and examine the lock and the wight of the buckle and secured it back. I told him I'm a security consultant and he started blabling about airbags and other stuff :rolleyes:. I will add whatch out for sleepers to the list.

I was surprise as I unpacked my hand bag my letherman was inside :eek:. TSA screener will not be able to pickup 100% of what passes so we have to stay alert and train from time to time to fight in spaces of only 3 feet wide, at least those of us that travel often on a plane.

Cheers,
Carlos

GeorgeG
02-07-2005, 08:59 PM
Reason of highjaking
I think it is important to remember that the 9/11 hijack hostages were lied to along the lines of "cooperate and you will all be okay." So, figuring out the reason for the hijacking might be difficult or impossible.

IVM
02-08-2005, 03:06 AM
Taking back a plane once there are terrorist pilots in the cockpit can be difficult at best. If the pilots have any warning that they are being assaulted, all they have to do is "waggle" the plane, or perform other related maneuvers such as a slightly sharp dive. Passengers will be tossed left and right and it will be near impossible to make your way to the cabin.

That is a good list that CPerez posted, however. :)

CPerez
02-08-2005, 08:58 AM
Yes it is dificult to determine the intent and one can be lied to, but one should try to so as to gain any advantage possible. The people from the virginia flight new it was a suicide job by the phone calls they made from the airplane and fought, sadly the lost their life and in the process thay saved many. I think that best way to put it is to learn as much as possible, gather inteligence that one can use in case an oportunity arrises.

In case I belive that if the attackers use edge weapons I will try to attack them as long as I have them stack to on side of the airplane so as to make it dificult for any other to attack me while I fight the first one and hoe that other passengers follow me.

IVM is that SOP for pilots in one of those situation?

Cheers,
Carlos

GeorgeG
02-08-2005, 11:29 AM
CPerez,

Agreed - gather intel, etc. Just wanted to mention that what the hijacker says can't be taken at face value. "We're going to Cuba" might mean the first stop is an office on the 60th floor.

By the way, I forgot to say Great Post.

CPerez
02-08-2005, 08:09 PM
Thanks Gorge!

InTheBlack
02-09-2005, 01:13 AM
Rather an unfocused topic question which led to a lot of unfocused responses; but Perez' good checklist came out of it. I didn't know the seatbelt could be detached from its bracket without tools.

Given the fact that you might only have ONE chance to attack by surprise, waiting to gather intelligence or waiting until the cockpit is actually being breached is problematic.

Should you simply take your first opportunity?

Even if it looks like multiple Tangos would take you out, you have at least reduced their numbers by one and hopefully your action will prompt an immediate uprising.

IVM
02-12-2005, 04:35 PM
IVM is that SOP for pilots in one of those situation?

Cheers,
Carlos

You know, I couldn't tell you if a pilot would do that. A terrorist might, because a terrorist doesn't care about the passengers, and if the passengers are knocking on the cabin door they've obviously already won any passenger compartment struggle so they aren't concerned about their buddies either.

A pilot would have to be concerned about the passengers, about whomever the terrorist(s) are holding captive, and whether or not they'd even get any notice that a terrorist was breaking into the cabin. Once in the cabin, it's pretty much all over if they are armed right. :(

Cold War Scout
02-12-2005, 04:39 PM
Terrorists not in control of the cockpit are not in control of the airplane. They are in control of the cabin only. The words I see on bumper stickers all over the place, "never again", should refer to opening the cockpit door for any reason whatsoever.