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Cold War Scout
09-20-2009, 07:44 PM
I could not find a better forum for this but it's a questioon I have wanted to ask for a while now.

Why haven't Bullpup type rifles taken off here in the USA?

Or have they and I just don't see it?

ScottT
09-20-2009, 07:55 PM
I spent a lot of time with a Steyr AUG bullpup a number of years ago. It was very controlable in full auto and it was quite accurate though the trigger was nothing to write home about.

The awkward things are that they cannot be switched to the other shoulder and changing magazines is not as easy or natural. I like the AUG.

ImFromTheGovt
09-20-2009, 07:56 PM
I think its for the following reasons:

1) Import ban prevented many of them from even being available until very recently. The models that were available were selling for ridiculous prices that only collectors (ie: safe queen guns) could handle

2) Many people feel that they are take longer to reload and are clumsy to reload due to having to take the gun away from the firing position

3) Because of #1, most of the bullpups available were cheap crappy drop-in stock sets for other guns (10/22, Mini 14, SKS, etc) that had horrible triggers and were not reliable. This led most to think of "bullpup" in the same sentence as "crap"

I personally have one bullpup in my collection, a type 86-S, and I love it. If I could afford to, I would have one of every type available (AUG, FN2000, etc) just because I think they are so well balanced and love the short OAL. Since I don't hunt men and kick in doors for a living, I don't perceive the extra second or so for a reload to be *THAT* big of a deal... but YMMV.

sabashimon
09-20-2009, 08:28 PM
I can tell you that the Tavor is being issued more and more to different units in the IDF. I've shot it a couple of times, (the micro version) and am impressed with both accuracy and ergonomics, (to use an overworked term).
I spoke with a number of guys who carried the newest generation into Gaza this last go-around, and they all to a man had only good things to say about them, with zero complaints. (and they take M4 mags)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IMI_Tavor_TAR-21

Dan-O
09-20-2009, 09:38 PM
Bullpups are cool but the main advantage of them is shorter overall length with a fullsize barrel.
They have not caught on due to less than stellar marketing, lots are not as compatable with the newer SOPMOD accessories (This is changing) and the perception that the advantages of them do not justify the cost and re-training necessary from more conventional weapons like the AR/AK ect.

They have a place,they are very nifty, they are not strictly speaking, necessary.

I think as more of them get adopted by bigger military units like Isreal's front line units and IMI has more foreign sales, the popularity will increase.
Steyr has had some success selling the Aug design.
FN has not sold too many of the FS2000's
England's L85 is really a disaster of a rifle and the fact that the Brits can make it work for them is a testament to soldier ability, not design of that rifle.
There were a few AK bullpups, none too successful but they are floating around.
Military users of the P90's have mixed feelings. It is a niche weapon. There are complaints about the Caliber.

They will not ever replace conventional lay out assault rifles unless more of them operate like the FS2000 / P90 series and have truer AMBI capability.

They also have to fight against the fact that countries like Russia and USA make it very logistically attractive to run an AR or AK.
I believe this is why many allied specops units that have the ability to choose their own rifles choose the M16/M4. Intraoperability issues and the cool guy factor plays a part also.

If you get issued a bullpup, practice with it and it does the same thing as any other rifle, launches a bullet.

Cold War Scout
09-20-2009, 09:46 PM
Bullpups are cool but the main advantage of them is shorter overall length with a fullsize barrel.
They have not caught on due to less than stellar marketing, lots are not as compatable with the newer SOPMOD accessories (This is changing) and the perception that the advantages of them do not justify the cost and re-training necessary from more conventional weapons like the AR/AK ect.

They have a place,they are very nifty, they are not strictly speaking, necessary.

I think as more of them get adopted by bigger military units like Isreal's front line units and IMI has more foreign sales, the popularity will increase.
Steyr has had some success selling the Aug design.
FN has not sold too many of the FS2000's
England's L85 is really a disaster of a rifle and the fact that the Brits can make it work for them is a testament to soldier ability, not design of that rifle.
There were a few AK bullpups, none too successful but they are floating around.
Military users of the P90's have mixed feelings. It is a niche weapon. There are complaints about the Caliber.

They will not ever replace conventional lay out assault rifles unless more of them operate like the FS2000 / P90 series and have truer AMBI capability.

They also have to fight against the fact that countries like Russia and USA make it very logistically attractive to run an AR or AK.
I believe this is why many allied specops units that have the ability to choose their own rifles choose the M16/M4. Intraoperability issues and the cool guy factor plays a part also.

If you get issued a bullpup, practice with it and it does the same thing as any other rifle, launches a bullet.

Your knowledge of rifles never ceases to amaze me.

I can't wait to see your M-4 DVD.

Dan-O
09-20-2009, 09:49 PM
Your knowledge of rifles never ceases to amaze me.

I can't wait to see your M-4 DVD.

I am merely a gun/gear geek.
Some guys got into hotrods, I got into...well... you know.

MTS
09-20-2009, 09:59 PM
England's L85 is really a disaster of a rifle and the fact that the Brits can make it work for them is a testament to soldier ability, not design of that rifle.

Actually they now work because HK came in and rebuilt the rifles.

The Searcher
09-20-2009, 10:19 PM
IMHO much of it is simply economics.

How do bullpup sales stack up against the sale of other similarly priced rifles?

There is also the trade up factor. Many guys start off with a cheaper AR or AK and then if they like it, they get a better one. There is no "starter" bullpup.

I know that when I tire kicked the AUG the price tag of both the rifle and the mags scared me off. It was nice but nowhere near that nice.

If someone sold a quality bullpup that took AR mags for the price of a nice AR or AK you'd probably see a big jump in the bullpup's popularity.

How many here would buy a Tavor if it cost $1100-1300? I know I'd be tempted.

Dan-O
09-20-2009, 10:30 PM
IMHO much of it is simply economics.

How do bullpup sales stack up against the sale of other similarly priced rifles?

There is also the trade up factor. Many guys start off with a cheaper AR or AK and then if they like it, they get a better one. There is no "starter" bullpup.

I know that when I tire kicked the AUG the price tag of both the rifle and the mags scared me off. It was nice but nowhere near that nice.

If someone sold a quality bullpup that took AR mags for the price of a nice AR or AK you'd probably see a big jump in the bullpup's popularity.

How many here would buy a Tavor if it cost $1100-1300? I know I'd be tempted.


Very good points.

Liberty or Death
09-20-2009, 11:42 PM
I know that when I tire kicked the AUG the price tag of both the rifle and the mags scared me off. It was nice but nowhere near that nice.
.

Straight up.

Had a chance to train on the AUG some years back.

As previously noted, the trigger on these things are atrocious, - and people have the nerve to excoriate AK triggers :rolleyes: - the optical sights are pretty crappy compared to the ACOGs, Aimpoints, and Eotechs(IMHO) and the manual of arms (read: reloading ) feels damned clumsy from just about every firing position but especially from sitting and prone.

Also, ambi shooting and shoulder transfers, as needed, are de rigueur for us :cool: but just about impossible to put into practice with a bullpup due to the location of the ejection port.

undman
09-21-2009, 03:35 AM
Straight up.

Had a chance to train on the AUG some years back.

As previously noted, the trigger on these things are atrocious, - and people have the nerve to excoriate AK triggers :rolleyes: - the optical sights are pretty crappy compared to the ACOGs, Aimpoints, and Eotechs(IMHO) and the manual of arms (read: reloading ) feels damned clumsy from just about every firing position but especially from sitting and prone.

Also, ambi shooting and shoulder transfers, as needed, are de rigueur for us :cool: but just about impossible to put into practice with a bullpup due to the location of the ejection port.

While I think that the AUG semi/auto with one trigger pull is stupid, I'll have to ask how much the trigger really matters on an assault rifle? I know I've never thought about how the trigger felt during a FOF engagement.

As for reloading being akward it probably has to do with two things.
1:On some systems (such as the AUG ) it's the poorly placed mag release.
2: To put it kindly, most US recreational shooters are probably not in the same shape as a 20 something soldier. Moving the magazine from a position near your right pec to a pouch on your left hip is quick and easy when your chest is wider than your gut.

Both the Tavor and FAMAS have the "trigger on magwell" kind of mag release that in my experience works well in a bullpup.

Jack-O
09-21-2009, 08:09 AM
Dan-O touched on this a bit, and I think that one of the major factors is that American EBR owners treat every rifle as an AR-15. This works to some extent with a standard rifle, but the bullpups are totally different.

When you pick one up it's not like anything you've become accustomed to. When you add the extra cost, and the different manual of arms it really becomes a thinking mans rifle, and that just wont cut it for the standard arfcom member.

lumbermanoh
09-21-2009, 10:22 AM
I've envisioned a port cover to deflect cases downwards on a bullpup rifle, but then I got to handle one of the new Microtechs......my design, at least, would not work. Cannot envision a working design.

The FS2000, if it didn't cost as much as 2 regular rifles, seems an interesting concept. Friend of mine shot one, once, said its trigger wasn't the greatest but it handled well, and the front ejection was a sweet concept.

In practice, I wonder how durable that thing is, however. With its price tag I don't see too many of us (actually, not us, that would imply I might see the retail value of that in the near future) trying a torture test of that rifle too soon.

Though, if someone wants, I'll take one to the range, and wring it out. Just send me yours, and a couple cases of ammo, I'll give it a workout. I'll even clean it up for you too!

Coolhand77
09-21-2009, 01:47 PM
Its too bad it will probably never see production at this rate (masada anyone?) Magpul had an interesting design that combined the muscle memory controls of the AR (except for the bolt release and charging handle), with a bullpup layout and on the fly selectable lefty/righty ejection. They called it the PDR and I have since seen CAD renderings of a civvie, 16" barrel model.
I've recently seen information on a bullpup AK varient for the Russian Navy, designed to fire a 5.45 underwater round. Despite the issues that might be had with an AK style selector lever, I find it an interesting design because it uses a forward style eject to solve the ejection ambidexterity issue. I think its called the ADS "dual medium" rifle

SqueeDAB
09-21-2009, 02:02 PM
Are brass catchers worth a darn, and do they reduce the ejection port problem?

paknheat
09-21-2009, 06:08 PM
Good points all gang. I think that if John M Browning had designed a bull-pup rifle for our military it would be one of the norms here. JMB was the last American gun designer/enginer. Stoner, Ruger, copied from others. JMB was one of a kind and if he thunk it he built it, and it was accepted. The Garand was an oringinal design, and look what it sprung. If John Wayne was swinging a AUG from the back of Ole' Dollar or was using the Tovar while charging up Iwo Jima, things may be different.:confused:

undman
09-22-2009, 01:00 AM
Are brass catchers worth a darn, and do they reduce the ejection port problem?

They help left hand use of the gun but you gain all the problems associated with brass catchers. Better to just go for a down or forward ejecting design.

BN747FDO
09-22-2009, 03:26 AM
Years ago, a fellow special ops buddy of mine showed me a bullpup stock mod for the M1A. I had already retired out.

It made the rifle small enough to work effectively for room clearing and CQB It had iron sights. This was way before red dot optics. However, it was heavy and a little clumsy with mag changes. It never took off, obviously.

The Tavor looks the most user friendly of any I've seen. That FS2000 is very bulky for what it is and looks like something out of 'Battle Star Gallactica'. At least 'Star Wars' used British Sterlings!

Coolhand77
09-22-2009, 03:48 AM
Biggest problem I see with the Tavor, AUG, FAMAS, and SA80 (well aside from reliability issues with the SA80) is that its not ambi on the fly. The F/FS2000, the unreleased Kel-tec RFB, the Russian "Dual Medium Rifle", and the prototype Magpul PDR all solve this by ejecting forward (in the case of the PDR it has an on the fly paddle that you flip to get it to eject out the other side too) and the P90 solves it by ejecting out the bottom. I agree that the FS2000 is way to bulky for what it is. Honestly, if they could slim it down, and shorten/simplify the ejection system, it might be a contender.

Jack-O
09-22-2009, 07:51 AM
those of you who claim the FN2000 is bulky... Have you ever shot one before?

I own one and can categorically say that while at first glance it does look bulky, after you shoot it and handle it a bit it in reality is almost free from snag areas, sleek and very comfortable to handle. The width that you perceive visually aides in handling this style of rifle and adds to it's smooth transitioning and comfortable feel.

The whole design really grows on you the more you shoot it. It's vastly different in the manual of arms and handling, but the advantages gained become apparent after using it and getting used to the way it's meant to be handled.

Gabe showed us how to run an AK, perhaps someone will show us how to run a bullpup someday.

benefits gained over other designs with the FS2000:
-size
- forward ejection. The first three rounds remain in the gun until they pop the ejection port cover open with the fourth. That could be a nice way to not leave casings all over the place.
-quick one button takedown. Allows cleaning from the breach end and fast access to the chamber is needed.
-2 gas settings. I can shoot wolf reliably with this gun all day long.
-completely ambidextrous. The controls can be easily operated by either hand instantaneously. Some other bullpup designs require you to change the components around to shoot left handed. Converted guns just cant be changed at all. Forward ejection rocks
-no snag points. the gun may look bulky, but the net effect is that it wont snag on your gear very easily
-mag retention. The mag must be forcibly removed from the well. This helps you to retain your mag better and does not reinforce the gun game technique of dropping your mags to speed reload.
-mag release is huge and operated by your whole hand not just your finger. This ensures that you only release when you want, and yet allows for gross motor movement to do the chore. Even covered in slime in the dark , you can still remove the mag easily.

Overall the bull pup offers a lot of advantages, and while the FS2000 has not proven it self in heated combat, It's a promising design and worthy of a serious look provided you can learn it's strengths and weaknesses and work with them like a true operator.

Coolhand77
09-22-2009, 08:18 AM
Well, the bulk I could live with (were the price point closer to an AR...I mean SHEESH, that sucker is expensive), but the ejection tube makes me nervous. What keeps rough handling, dirt or fouling from plugging it up and jamming your rifle?

ImFromTheGovt
09-22-2009, 08:39 AM
Well, the bulk I could live with (were the price point closer to an AR...I mean SHEESH, that sucker is expensive), but the ejection tube makes me nervous. What keeps rough handling, dirt or fouling from plugging it up and jamming your rifle?

Same thing that keeps it from plugging the barrel or clogging your ejection port of your AR ?

Operator attention...

A little common sense goes a long way. If you try hard enough, you can find a way to break anything.

505stevec
09-25-2009, 08:00 PM
While I am no pro, I have shot a lot of the above rifles. I like the AKs for durability and own several. I like the AR for the same reasons. I like the MSAR which is the US AUG. It shoots wolf better than my ARs and does not hickup. Battle Proven? no but neither am I. I hope neither of us will fail at an inoportune time. Though truthfully my M-92 Krink is my goto. :)

Liberty or Death
09-25-2009, 08:26 PM
benefits gained over other designs with the FS2000:
-size
- forward ejection. The first three rounds remain in the gun until they pop the ejection port cover open with the fourth. That could be a nice way to not leave casings all over the place.
-quick one button takedown. Allows cleaning from the breach end and fast access to the chamber is needed.
-2 gas settings. I can shoot wolf reliably with this gun all day long.
-completely ambidextrous. The controls can be easily operated by either hand instantaneously. Some other bullpup designs require you to change the components around to shoot left handed. Converted guns just cant be changed at all. Forward ejection rocks
-no snag points. the gun may look bulky, but the net effect is that it wont snag on your gear very easily
-mag retention. The mag must be forcibly removed from the well. This helps you to retain your mag better and does not reinforce the gun game technique of dropping your mags to speed reload.
-mag release is huge and operated by your whole hand not just your finger. This ensures that you only release when you want, and yet allows for gross motor movement to do the chore. Even covered in slime in the dark , you can still remove the mag easily.

It's a promising design and worthy of a serious look provided you can learn it's strengths and weaknesses and work with them like a true operator.

This looks likeone of the only Bullpup systems that readily lends itself to shoulder transfers/ambi shooting.

What's the line of sight/boreline offset on the FN2000?

Coolhand77
09-26-2009, 11:22 AM
I think its about the same as the AR, but with a shorter sight radius...sight radius is closer to a CAR or maybe even a Suchka due to the OAL

Jack-O
09-28-2009, 10:37 AM
yep same off set as the AR as far as I can tell.

dirt in the tube... It's constantly getting brass shoved down the tube, so debris would tend to move out rather than in. Additionally I'd point out that it acts as a great shield from crud, being about 7" long. The action is completely shielded from the elements, from the rubber mag retention shield in the magwell, to the toilet seat cover over the chamber and the dust flap on the ejection tube (which only pops open after about 4 rounds have been fired.

I had an opportunity to look at one of the newly re-released Steyr AUG's this weekend. It was brand new and featured a raised rail that should prevent charging handle knuckle dragging. It had a little offset rail at 45 degrees on the right side as well. It still uses the AUG mags, but they are available again apparently. I'd choose one of these over the MSAR personally, if I wanted to go this route.

Note that the AUG is still not as ambedetrous as the FS2000. It does look nice and fit and finish is as expected. The gun was priced at $2195, but knowing Steyrs offest between dealer and Suggested retail, it should street at around $1850 eventually. If you want an AUG, they are available again for a reasonable (IE not $3000+) price.

:cool:

Coolhand77
09-28-2009, 11:24 AM
One other question about the FS2000. How reliable are all those plastic moving parts in there? If it wears out in 5000 rounds, and unlike an AR, I can't get parts for it to fix it myslef, that kinda nixes it. On the other hand, if they are good polymer, and they hold together for a decent rifle life cycle, it might be worth looking at.

Oh, just had another thought. Will it accept P-mags?

Jack-O
09-28-2009, 11:29 AM
One other question about the FS2000. How reliable are all those plastic moving parts in there? If it wears out in 5000 rounds, and unlike an AR, I can't get parts for it to fix it myslef, that kinda nixes it. On the other hand, if they are good polymer, and they hold together for a decent rifle life cycle, it might be worth looking at.

Oh, just had another thought. Will it accept P-mags?

That was a concern for me as well. the plastic appears to be a very high grade polymer, and should hold up very well. If I had to guess, I'd say it would probably wear significantly better than steel or aluminum parts and would require only a bare minimum of lubrication on those specifically plastic areas.

the bolt design is complicated but appears to be well engineered.

As to parts. I have called the factory personally and they will sell you the parts for it. if you have something break, they will often just send out a replacement for you gratis. The "switch" and the charginh handle appear to be the weak points when mis-handled.

Walter Mitty
09-28-2009, 02:52 PM
1) I am Left handed.
2) I do not want my face directly over the bolt/chamber area in case something goes wrong. (I would rather have my face as far away from 40,000-50,000 psi pressure as I can rationally get it)
Just my .02.

Jack-O
09-28-2009, 08:35 PM
1) I am Left handed.
2) I do not want my face directly over the bolt/chamber area in case something goes wrong. (I would rather have my face as far away from 40,000-50,000 psi pressure as I can rationally get it)
Just my .02.


I can respect that.

Have you ever thought that with an AR, the gas is directly in front of your nose? they even made a gas buster charging handle to deal with that.

With the AK, the entire bolt group and recoil spring come back directly towards your eye and cheek. What if something gave up there?

With the bull pup system your face is sheilded by the reciever and lies above and out of the way of the recoiling action. Certainly closer to the chamber, but not much more likely to receive injury than a conventional action.

just my $.02

Coolhand77
09-29-2009, 07:26 PM
Hmmmm, might just be worth trading in an AR to get one after all. I'd love to T&E one for a while.

As to "Kaboom" fears, I wouldn't worry. IIRC they specifically design those suckers to that any blast goes away from the shooter (IIRC the Magpul design had a kevlar spall liner in the cheek weld piece). In addition, this should be doubley true of the FS2000 since it doesnt "eject" conventionally either.

Just some thoughts. I may be a righty, but I like the idea of being able to shoot on my non dominant side...never know when the crap is going to hit the fan around a left handed corner ;)

rck
09-30-2009, 04:09 PM
those of you who claim the FN2000 is bulky... Have you ever shot one before?

-2 gas settings. I can shoot wolf reliably with this gun all day long.

What gas setting do you use for Wolf? I find that I need to use adverse or I get a locked up gun with my FS2000.

Thanks!

RCK

Jack-O
09-30-2009, 04:32 PM
What gas setting do you use for Wolf? I find that I need to use adverse or I get a locked up gun with my FS2000.

Thanks!

RCK


yeah, it's on adverse when wolf gets run thru it. But with that setting, I've never had any failures with it!!

That extra gas (or lack there-of) is what allows guns like the mini and XCR to run with the wolf, where AR's may have issues with it.

rck
09-30-2009, 06:40 PM
Thanks Jack. :) Confirms my experience to date.

Interesting rifle. Punched my engineer buttons big time. Very different manual of arms however. Lots to learn there.

- RCK

Jack-O
09-30-2009, 08:58 PM
Thanks Jack. :) Confirms my experience to date.

Interesting rifle. Punched my engineer buttons big time. Very different manual of arms however. Lots to learn there.

- RCK


yeah, but it's kind of nice to approach a rifle from a blank slate and develop things that work for it. The more you use it, the more you learn about yourself and the system. Try not to bring dogma into the process and stay ambidextrous. I think that might actually make it simpler.

Karl Kasarda
09-30-2009, 10:40 PM
I've been putting some dedicated effort into the FS2000, and frankly, am very impressed.

If you don't try to run it like a AR, it's an impressive system.

This one has a few thousand rounds through it so far, and no malfunctions whatsoever.

With a optical dot sight, sight radius is irrelevant. I happen to be running a Trijicon reflex.
With the backup irons, who cares at that point - they suffice for that need that moment should your optic fail (highly unlikely anymore).

Essentially this thing is a 17.4" barrel w/ 1/7 twist, fully ambidextrous with excellent one handed manipulation and balance, and reliable, yet almost as short as a SBR Suchka - not a bad package. I was originally skeptical, but decided to try it to get some stick time on a bullpup. I went into this prepared to hate it and landed up respecting and liking it. Sometimes even jaded people can be surprised.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1N4bRidfpCo

John Chambers
10-01-2009, 06:37 AM
Karl,

The one I tried had an ATROCIOUS trigger. Does it get appreciably better with use?

JC

Karl Kasarda
10-01-2009, 06:48 AM
Karl,

The one I tried had an ATROCIOUS trigger. Does it get appreciably better with use?

JC

It cleans up a bit, and does even have two stages (sorta), but it's never going to be great.

It's better than the AUG, if that's any compensation.

The trigger on the FS2000 is 2-stagey, and breaks around 8-9 lbs.

At close range, it's not noticeable. At long range, you just have to have your fundamentals in play and it's serviceable.

Jack-O
10-01-2009, 07:41 AM
My trigger cleaned up nicely and actually feels pretty good (comparitively) It still has a "bad glock" type feel, but is very controllable and not as bad as I thought it would have been.

Mine might be the exception tho, as I have heard others claim thiers was much worse than this one, and other rifles I have tried were in fact worse.

Coolhand77
10-01-2009, 11:02 AM
Now heres the question...do I sell my AR pistol for one? :p

By the way, nice vid. I would love to see it wrung out in that fasion by various people like Mr. Suarez and Mr. Puzakis (sp?) to name a few.

The more I see it, the more I want one...just wish they would slim down the grip and the forarm a bit...damn those suckers are bulky feeling right off the bat.
Then again, I like the slim CAR handguards on my ARs too.

Condition Write
10-01-2009, 11:06 AM
I've seen a few indications that Magpul PMAGs are incompatible with the FS2000 (including Magpul's own disclaimers). Will the new EMAGs work in it?

Karl Kasarda
10-01-2009, 12:28 PM
I've seen a few indications that Magpul PMAGs are incompatible with the FS2000 (including Magpul's own disclaimers). Will the new EMAGs work in it?

No.

"Mil-spec" non-polymer mags only.

This is an instance where, not surprisingly, the HK "high reliability" mags (originally designed for the SA80 bullpup) work wonderfully. The extra length affords good purchase and they fit and pull out like a champ.

Coolhand77
10-01-2009, 12:59 PM
Hmm, thats too bad...but then again, with the amount of magazine that sticks out of the mag well (or lack there of) they are very well protected and probably wouldn't get banged around near as much as one that sticks out from an AR mag well. I wonder if they will develop a "high magwell" version that is compatable with a beta-c or other large capacity magazine or drum.

Still not sold on getting one, but the more I look at them, the more I think I want one.:D

Not going to buy the $60 HK mags though...milspec aluminum with magpul guts are just fine, thanks.

Karl Kasarda
10-01-2009, 01:09 PM
I wonder if they will develop a "high magwell" version that is compatable with a beta-c or other large capacity magazine or drum.


I see no reason why they'd bother. This is a military rifle, designed for military application (used by their own Belgian army and a few others). Beta-c mags a drums, with the exception of the RPK, are not considered practical for the field. Beta-c mags are shooting competition toys.

Coolhand77
10-01-2009, 02:23 PM
Point taken, but the "high magwell" modification may also allow for the use of P and Emags theoretically. It would also allow for the use of 20 round AR mags (which would probably get stuck in the FS2000 as it is now without an "extender" to pull it out of the mag well).

Actually, weren't the Marines looking at a drum fed IAR concept using something like a Beta-C and a modified M16 relative?

Karl Kasarda
10-01-2009, 02:31 PM
Point taken, but the "high magwell" modification may also allow for the use of P and Emags theoretically. It would also allow for the use of 20 round AR mags (which would probably get stuck in the FS2000 as it is now without an "extender" to pull it out of the mag well).

Actually, weren't the Marines looking at a drum fed IAR concept using something like a Beta-C and a modified M16 relative?


20 round mags work fine in the FS2000, actually. There's still enough there to get a hold of for extraction. A piece of para-cord looped off the base plate helps dramatically, however.

That being said, the 30 round mags fit so well up into the receiver that they're not in the way as they are sometimes with a conventional design. Resultantly, 20 round mags are sorta not very useful.

I don't think FN or the Belgian army is worried about P-mags.

Jack-O
10-01-2009, 07:01 PM
I've had excellent luck thus far with the HK mags. and they street for closer to $40 than $60. If you dont want to pay that, then I hear that the Brownells mags are excellent.

I've never had the desire to stick a 20 in the FS, as there is just no advantage to doing so.:confused:

P-mags... I wouldnt drink so deeply of that koolaid that I'd pass up a good gun because it didnt take them.:o

As to selling the AR pistol for an FS, i'd do it in a heartbeat.:D

Coolhand77
10-01-2009, 09:15 PM
Hahaha, well, maybe after I get done with the buffer experiments, I might trade in the pistol (with a stock CAR buffer...since I'm torture testing using the pistol, but eventually its part of a project that will be adapted to the AR RIFLE platform).

Oh, I'm not wedded to the P-mag, but I prefer them as the best bang for the buck in mags at the moment. I like the Brownells alot to (as much as I do metal mags) and the guts are Magpul so no arguments on quality from me.


Hmmm, what else can I sell...Maybe my uncle will have the money together for the Tanfoglio soon...

Whats the street price on FS2000s these days? I see them online for anywhere from 2100 to 2500...that seems a little steep IMHO.

Coolhand77
10-10-2009, 07:57 AM
Well, I got the dissy upper back, so I am going to sell my carbine upper, the Tanfoglio, and a few other odds and ends and I SHOULD have enough for the FS2000 I came across. Gotta say, the vid, and yall's endorsement of it finally sold me.
Why am I selling the carbine upper? Because the FS2000 will be taking over that job, I still have the Dissy to use with my rifle lower, and my AR pistol is being used as a test platform at the moment. Its also a carry handle upper, which was purchased by mistake (wanted a flattop). I may get or build another carbine upper later, but I'm really sold on that FS2000, especially since you can get parts for them, including new barrels.

I wonder if I can make a rail to fit the Spikes 37mm launcher...:D

Coolhand77
10-19-2009, 10:57 AM
I've been poking around on the FN forums and found that someone has been messing around with making P-mags work in an FS2000. Turns out that the E-mag SHOULD work without modification to mag or gun.

Honestly, after a little reading, I think I would pull the magwell "o ring" that seems to be causing magazine extraction problems. If I am not mistaken, the milspec F2000 does not have this feature and it was added to civvie rifles only.

Karl Kasarda
10-19-2009, 11:20 AM
I've been poking around on the FN forums and found that someone has been messing around with making P-mags work in an FS2000. Turns out that the E-mag SHOULD work without modification to mag or gun.

Honestly, after a little reading, I think I would pull the magwell "o ring" that seems to be causing magazine extraction problems. If I am not mistaken, the milspec F2000 does not have this feature and it was added to civvie rifles only.

You are mistaken, it's part of the military design.

It is there to enforce magazine retention and to prevent contamination (not just dirt, but chemical contamination in a dirty environment).

Using it with the "o-ring" is not a problem and the world doesn't revolve around P or E mags.

I highly recommend P or E mags with AR15s, but with the Fs2000, just buy a bunch of cheap C-product aluminum mags (with magpul followers) and go. Those c-product mags work absolutely fine in the FS2000 . The HK mags are nicer, due to their slightly longer length, but obviously cost more.

Due to the design of this bullpup, or any bullpup really, the "drop free" magazine "issue" is irrelevant due to the manipulations you go through to remove the mag anyways. Drop free magazines seem to be an American fetish.

Coolhand77
10-19-2009, 02:11 PM
Oh no argument there.
Guess thats a fiction over at the FN forums...which is why I like talking to people here since there are some that know more than the "range masters" over there.
I actually don't like drop free mags myself. They are fast in a "crunch" but transitioning to a sidearm (or poking them with a bayo ;) ) is MUCH faster if they are THAT close. If they arn't, a mag swap can be done right.

Hmm, I could have sworn that the E-mag was set up for for STANAG tolerances so that it would fit euro weapons like the FS2K... oh well. C-products, or Brownells work juuuuust fine.

Now all I have to do is sell that AR upper, the ex wife's tanfoglio (almost ex wife), and collect on the washer and dryer my son's mother got from me and I should have enough to get one...