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View Full Version : would you get a NFA type weapon?



Jack-O
09-16-2009, 05:58 PM
I'm interested to see what percentage of us are willing to make that jump to register a SBR, Suppressor, SBS, Machine gun, AOW etc etc.

We do a lot of discussing about geurilla snipers and concealable rifles and such, but how many of us HAVE or are PLANNING TO go the NFA route.

I'd also be interested to see if you consider these weapons primary fighting tools, or whether they hold a secondary or tertiary place in your arsenal.

I'll make the poll private so you can respond in confidence.

stanmann
09-16-2009, 06:03 PM
Should really distinguish along the money lines.

Machinegun/collectables

SBR/AOW/Suppressor

NO interest.

cavegeo
09-16-2009, 06:11 PM
I am hoping to SBR my Sterling next year. Mostly I think it would improve its looks more than anything but do see it improving it utility a little by shortening the barrel.

Frank Pinelander
09-16-2009, 06:40 PM
Had a couple, got them when things were cheap, sold at the middle of the market.

Too much money for what you get right now.

Mickey Rourke
09-16-2009, 06:42 PM
I'd already own a couple if Alabama allowed SBR's and SBS's:mad:

BN747FDO
09-16-2009, 06:42 PM
10.5" AR with suppressor ......


Yea, one of those! That's what I want! Can I have one?

SteveOR
09-16-2009, 06:48 PM
A SBR and/or suppressor would sure be fun. I have a clean background so it would be easy. I always end up deciding no when I have to fill out paperwork and ask permission .

HamburgO
09-16-2009, 10:31 PM
Really want an SBR, e.g. http://www.lwrifles.com/Products/PSD/tabid/87/Default.aspx, but seems like quite a hassle, and a lot of dough. :(

HarvKY
09-16-2009, 10:35 PM
Planning to have an M92 built as my first NFA but its gonna take just a little longer as Im going the trust route and I'm pretty sure I'd rather just pay extra to have the Esquire do it up and have plenty peace of mind.

I'm not overly comfortable with online or Willmaker programs being able to advise me on multiple state regulations (ie., in case I end up moving) or some details involved.

Cheers,
HarvKY

Pokeguyjai
09-16-2009, 11:07 PM
Really want an SBR, e.g. http://www.lwrifles.com/Products/PSD/tabid/87/Default.aspx, but seems like quite a hassle, and a lot of dough. :(

That in 6.8 and and a Fuller reworked SLR-107UR to a Suchka.

Possibly one or two silencers in the mix as well.

Cold War Scout
09-17-2009, 12:25 AM
Simply stealing them from police officer's cars seems to be gaining popularity.

motorhead
09-17-2009, 12:36 AM
I already have several NFA items, but I'lleb sticking a Sound Supressor ["silencer"] on my Guerilla Sniper when it's done - wait till you see the specs/pics!

98 Joes
09-17-2009, 05:20 AM
There wasn't a choice on the list that stated:

I'd love to own a class 3 weapon but this liberal POS state I live in denys me my Constitutional right. :)

IF they allowed them here, I would love to SBR my HK94 and add a suppressor. But I won't live long enough to ever see it happen.

reb777
09-17-2009, 05:29 AM
My wish list for NFA includes:

* 8" Barreled Saiga 12 (Simillar to Bama's) - I hope I'm not drooling to bad! :p
* Suppressed/SBR Ruger 10/22.

I'm starting to look at Saiga12's right now. Major mods down the road though...

georgel
09-17-2009, 05:38 AM
I've been going back on forth on the cost benefits. I don't think anybody doubts they're cool and have utility. Pure cost of hardware is one factor, but I'm curious about the feelings on the paperwork overhead. Does the process put one on the map for scrutiny or open random inspection, as it were?

Gabriel Suarez
09-17-2009, 06:40 AM
I've been going back on forth on the cost benefits. I don't think anybody doubts they're cool and have utility. Pure cost of hardware is one factor, but I'm curious about the feelings on the paperwork overhead. Does the process put one on the map for scrutiny or open random inspection, as it were?

They have a special file on you simply because you know ME. Get one and don't sweat it. Don't like paperwork, get a trust made up and it takes less paper than a CCW application./

vernonator
09-17-2009, 06:43 AM
I am in the same boat as 98 Jones - I want one but they are prohibited in my state.

Jujutsuka
09-17-2009, 07:15 AM
My wish list for NFA includes:
* Suppressed/SBR Ruger 10/22.
+1
Would also like some sort of suppressor when I do the DMR/GS thing

Jack-O
09-17-2009, 07:26 AM
If you live in a state that prohibits NFA ownership, then you fall in the "no" category.

The purpose of this poll is to discover how many of us are under limitations (whether legal or self imposed) so that we may address problems with an eye to that percentage of folks who dont have normal access to special weapons.

EG: Guerrilla sniper secondary, Mumbai response weapon, personal defense weapon etc etc.

My thought was that if we discover that 1/3 of us only have access to regular type stuff that we can focus on the "work arounds" when it comes to some of these things.

A good example of this would be if the situation called for a "suchka", then it would be appropriate to develop techniques to use an AK pistol stabilized by the use of a sling under tension, or maybe a bullpup to play the same roll.

If one wanted a stocked pistol, then a work around to increase effective range of the pistol without the addition of a stock would be in order (like adding a red dot or a tension strap)

After all, isnt finding workable solutions to problems the fun part?

motorhead
09-17-2009, 07:28 AM
+1
Would also like some sort of suppressor when I do the DMR/GS thing

Well keep your eyes peeled - I have the feelings that between Red Jacket and Rifle Dynamics both working on the GSR/DMR project, they will have something special cooked up just for us here at WT - I've already sort fo jumped hte gun and am building my own .308 SAIGA rifle and will eb putting a silencer on it - this proves to be a VERY interesting concept that I'm very excited about.

motorhead
09-17-2009, 07:33 AM
A good example of this would be if the situation called for a "suchka...

You call me? ;-)

http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/2764/babyex.jpg

EDELWEISS
09-18-2009, 08:08 AM
Ive owned class 3 stuff back before '86 (boy does that make me feel old), when a MAC or Sten cost less than the tax. They went to pay for the !st wife (now that #2 is almost gone), Im thinking I might need a "cheer me up or two".

Im thinking Id like to:
1.put the stock on my Skorpion
2.maybe "suchka" a AK (like Gabe's)
3.build a REAL AMD65
4.SBR a SxS
5.get a couple suppressors (22, 9, 45, 30cal, 50???)

The list goes on; but Im still bitching about the paperwork. I can deal with the tax, but the paper, prints, and wait are slowing me down. I keep wondering if its worth it??

Any legal thoughts on actually (and otherwise leagally) using one in a confortation? Seems to me I recall an issue (besides the HK salesman) where use was determined not to be self defense simply because the weapon was determined to be an "OFFENSIVE Weapon"

Gabriel Suarez
09-18-2009, 08:26 AM
Paperwork: Contact guntrustlawyer.com and have him draw up a trust. Its legal in most states and does not require prints, photos, or leo anything. You still have to fill out the government forms, but they are no more onerous than the typical CCW stuff. Its called either a Form 1 or Form 4 depending on the gun/item.

Approval for the Forms takes about 5 months now due to the Mugabe Gun Rush.

Using It In A Fight: It depends on where you live. Here in AZ I don't expect any issues. Neither in Texas. If you live in the Northeast, maybe juts use a Glock.

What to get: This is a very individualized thing but what i would suggest is this. One SBR Rifle - either a Suchka or an AR Commando type rifle. One can for that weapon. One SBR Pistol caliber rifle and a can for it. A can for your CCW pistol, which could be the same one as for the PCC. And maybe a can for a 22. That is my opinion on the matter.

If your state is a free state, and you have $200, there is nothing holding you back from doing this.

tim miller
09-18-2009, 11:03 AM
Gabe is correct regarding the Trust, especially if you plan on more than 1 NFA purchase. If you decide not to do the Trust, just find a Class 3 Dealer that will assist you with the paperwork.
Our customers can get their pictures and fingerprints done in our store while they are filling out the paperwork and all that is left is to get their Chief LEO to sign off on the form. In Texas, that is not a problem for most.

Chris Upchurch
09-18-2009, 12:42 PM
What to get: This is a very individualized thing but what i would suggest is this. One SBR Rifle - either a Suchka or an AR Commando type rifle. One can for that weapon. One SBR Pistol caliber rifle and a can for it. A can for your CCW pistol, which could be the same one as for the PCC. And maybe a can for a 22. That is my opinion on the matter.

What about doing the SBR paperwork for a pistol to permit attaching a stock to it as a Mumbai gun?

Gabriel Suarez
09-18-2009, 12:54 PM
Sure...why not

jklinstein
09-18-2009, 12:59 PM
It's not a legal option for me (in Iowa) so I didn't vote. If I lived where I could own one I don't know if the benefit would justify the hassle (cost and being on their radar).

Red Jacket
09-18-2009, 01:20 PM
being on their radar). man , I know it's hard to believe , but honestly , they couldn't care less . Regulatory is like the DMV of gun's . I get this question a lot . So , I'm going to use your post to answer it . This is what they know , they know that since 1934 there have been , IIRC , 2 instances of a registered NFA item used in a crime . They don't have the werewithal to deal with the shitheads that they KNOW are the problem , much less the one group that is a statistical 0 in the crime dept . I know it's a big deal to the customer , kinda like the first time you went down to register that new pick up , but to Jimmy up in Martinsburg , you're just one of 40 names he has to cross off in his day . The title is transfered to the new owner and that's the end of it . There is no further movement on it till the owner direct's it .

tim miller
09-18-2009, 01:42 PM
Radar? They really could care less! I have one customer that purchased 10 suppressors on the same day. We sent in 10 sets of paperwork and got them all back the same day! They did not ask what he wanted 10 suppressors for. ATF has told me several times that as long as a person can pass the background check, and their $200. check clears, they are happy to get them the stamp.

Jack-O
09-18-2009, 03:37 PM
OK, while we are on this course, I've heard several other concerns about going this route. How do you address these concerns?

1) "NFA weapons will be the first ones they collect if a crackdown or a ban happens"
2) "They've made CCW holders public information, what happens when they do that to NFA weapons?"
3) "I dont the fact they make me get permission to shoot them out of my state"
4) "doesnt this open up my home (or place of storage) for a search when they want to, without a warrant?"

Frankly I'd love to have some of these goodies, but concerns like these need to be addressed in a rational and correct manner before I would pull the trigger.

Gabriel Suarez
09-18-2009, 04:15 PM
1) "NFA weapons will be the first ones they collect if a crackdown or a ban happens"

As long as you are not the first one on their list, who cares. We will have far more to worry about at such a time...so will they. IMHO.....lots of tin foil crap....just like excuses for not doing FOF Seriously...they can't keep illiterate third world peasants from entering the USA illegally...how are thye going to do such a thing.

2) "They've made CCW holders public information, what happens when they do that to NFA weapons?"

All MY neighbors already know who and what I am. Let them publish. It will tell anyone interested - HERE LIVES A FRIGGING DANGEROUS MAN

3) "I dont the fact they make me get permission to shoot them out of my state"

That is the way it is. Don't like it, move to Czech where you are far more free about guns. I'm in AZ - the only reason I leave is for work anyway.

4) "doesnt this open up my home (or place of storage) for a search when they want to, without a warrant?"

Nope

Frankly I'd love to have some of these goodies, but concerns like these need to be addressed in a rational and correct manner before I would pull the trigger.

I will also let Red Jacket answer further as he has a great deal more knowledge about it than I

Red Jacket
09-18-2009, 04:35 PM
OK, while we are on this course, I've heard several other concerns about going this route. How do you address these concerns?

1) "NFA weapons will be the first ones they collect if a crackdown or a ban happens" They've had since 1934 , they havn't even raised the tax , which has been the same this entire time . As for "what could they do ? " Man , they got the bomb , they could do anything they wanted . "If" is a real big question and way outside my paygrade . All I can go by is what's been done so far , history , and try to make an educated guess . Which does differ slightly from a WAG :)
2) "They've made CCW holders public information, what happens when they do that to NFA weapons?" I think Fed law is in the way , but , ok What happen's ? What did happen ? I mean , what was the upshot of it ?
3) "I dont the fact they make me get permission to shoot them out of my state" Well , I don't either . This dosn't apply to suppressor's btw . For item's it does apply to , SBR's , SBS's , MG's , you can do an affidavit of fax with them , so that in the future you just fax over the form . ATF has told me that it does not have to come back "approved" , that as long as it's "Pending" you're good . I'd have along the cover sheet that say's when I faxed it . Also , been a year or so since I asked that question , I really need to make the call and verify that's still the case .
4) "doesnt this open up my home (or place of storage) for a search when they want to, without a warrant?" No . However , If you're in your suburban back yard , blazing with your new M-16 , expect company .

Frankly I'd love to have some of these goodies, but concerns like these need to be addressed in a rational and correct manner before I would pull the trigger. Jack-O thank's for bringing this up , these are actually the standard question's I get from just about all first timer's and I'm sure there are plenty reading who have the same concern's . Will

Mickey Rourke
09-18-2009, 04:50 PM
4) "doesnt this open up my home (or place of storage) for a search when they want to, without a warrant?"I've heard this over and over again about having a Curio and Relics Collectors (03) License. I scan some of the C&R forums, but I must be missing the stories of C&R holders being visited in the middle of the night.

georgel
09-18-2009, 05:16 PM
They have a special file on you simply because you know ME. - Gabe

Yeah, so what's the point in hiding it right. :D

How are multiple items handled in a trust? For example a SBR with a can is considered two separate taxable items right? Do you form a trust for each item or does one trust manage both and you just pay the extra tax?

Gabriel Suarez
09-18-2009, 05:45 PM
One trust - multiple items. Each item is $200.

BigEd63
09-18-2009, 05:54 PM
I'm not sure now I almost did several years ago.

If I did it might be soome SBR's and silencers.

Just that if I got to that point I'd want to travel with them for training so would it be worth the hassel?

But right now no, to be honest.

Red Jacket
09-18-2009, 05:59 PM
Another thing , if you own a company , you can put it in the company's name , works the same as the trust , no LEO sig . [any kind of company ]

bonehedz
09-19-2009, 11:09 AM
One trust - multiple items. Each item is $200.

100% correct, el jeffe...the purpose of the trust, at least for me, is to expedite clearance on my end with CLEO sig. As to ownership of NFA items:

three SBS (Saiga 12, 2-Rem 870) w/ plans for another S12;

one stocked pistol (G17L), one Suomi KP31 SBR, w/ plans for a MAC11/9 SBR from Rifle Dynamics;

two SBR AKs (think Suchka, with standard AK furniture/ fittings, more or less);

Ruger 10/22 w/ integral suppressor;

Ruger MKII pistol w/ integral suppressor;

one suppressor for Walther (Mahurin) .32 ACP;

two 9mm suppressors (one for the G26 w/ Jarvis threaded barrel, the other a multi-mount set-up for PCC/SMGs...

the "Dirty Dozen" if you will, with a handful more waiting in the wings...
BTW, I am not married, so that's how I get approval from the Miniser of Finance and War:D. BH

bonehedz
09-19-2009, 11:12 AM
They have a special file on you simply because you know ME.

Gee, now I probably have TWO files on me...I'm feeling special, like short-bus kind of special:dope:
If being associated with Gabe, WT, and Suarez Int'l gets me on the radar, then I'll proudly accept their attention...BH

Benjamin Liu
09-19-2009, 01:19 PM
The random warrantless search thing is a widespread objection to owning NFA weapons among gunowners. Almost everyone I know who knows what an NFA weapon is believes it. If that isn't the case, did the idea come from a misinterpretation of the actual law, or is it just an urban legend?

Red Jacket
09-19-2009, 01:45 PM
The random warrantless search thing is a widespread objection to owning NFA weapons among gunowners. Almost everyone I know who knows what an NFA weapon is believes it. If that isn't the case, did the idea come from a misinterpretation of the actual law, or is it just an urban legend?
Dealer's , when you apply for a Dealers lic. , you agree to allow them access . . When you buy a NFA item , you're buying an item , not going into the business of them . Someone saw it on a application for a FFL , and spead the fact erroneously . urban legend , misunderstanding , misreading ,paranoia , tin-foil hat , however you want to call it . Consider this , If it were fact , then it would have happened to somebody . Would it not be headline news on EVERY internet forum in the country ? For no reason at all , they just "popped up" one night and demanded "paper's please" , and no ones ever heard of an actuall occurrence ? Now , I've had them out on me at my home , shooting a M-16 in the back yard , but it took me giving them a reason . actually , I got to meet a lot of cop's that afternoon ........ But they were there because I caused them to be there , not because they threw a dart and it landed on my name .

Jack-O
09-19-2009, 04:18 PM
Which is correct...

1-you are registering the firearm/supressor and paying a tax to transfer it based upon thier approval of you owning it.
2- YOU are being registered, as being in possession of that firearm/suppressor?

What are the storage requirements (if any)?

Are there any other requirements that they place on you as a condition of the transfer to you other than
-be able to verify that you have paid the tax
-possible permission/notification to transfer interstate


Who may possess or shoot the thing legally? (it's my current understanding that the owner must be in control or directly supervising the item)

Does the trust allow more than one person to possess/control?


sorry for all the questions. Thanks for all your responses.:cool:

Red Jacket
09-19-2009, 05:24 PM
Which is correct...

1-you are registering the firearm/supressor and paying a tax to transfer it based upon thier approval of you owning it.
2- YOU are being registered, as being in possession of that firearm/suppressor? Registration is by the item , not the owner . It is an important distinction .

What are the storage requirements (if any)? There are none listed [unlike when becoming a dealer , which has stringent guidlines ] Realistically , most folks tend to keep them locked up . If it becomes stolen , forward the police report to the ATF [don't trust local LE to do this] so that they can annotate the registry and return your property if it's ever recovered .

Are there any other requirements that they place on you as a condition of the transfer to you other than
-be able to verify that you have paid the tax
-possible permission/notification to transfer interstate No . By definition , when your Form 4 comes back approved , it is "Tax Paid " and stamped as such in the upper right hand corner .


Who may possess or shoot the thing legally? (it's my current understanding that the owner must be in control or directly supervising the item) You are correct in that . It's a matter of "possesion" and "transfer" . If you're there , it has not been "transfered" , if you are not there with the item , it has been transfered without prior approvl and payment of tax to ATF .

Does the trust allow more than one person to possess/control? Yes , also , all listed owners of a LLC or other business .


sorry for all the questions. Thanks for all your responses.:cool:
:) no problem's , really , these are good question's . It's a major purchase and it's very important that a potential owner be aware of all the in's and out's . Will

Jack-O
09-19-2009, 07:51 PM
we should make this a sticky

Mickey Rourke
09-20-2009, 12:09 AM
ATF's FAQ on NFA (http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#m)Great link.

This one has some good information as well:
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/usr/wbardwel/public/nfalist/nfa_faq.txt

Gabriel Suarez
09-20-2009, 06:35 AM
Tin foil perspectives and false fears have kept barrels long, guns loud, and often times slow firing for many so called Free Americans. Get a silencer and an SBR and step into the light ;)

Gabriel Suarez
09-20-2009, 06:40 AM
Go to http://www.guntrustlawyer.com/

Tell them you heard of them from Warrior Talk and Gabe Suarez. They will set up a trust specifically for you and your situation. Yes...it will cost you a couple of hundred dollars but legal documents and brain surgery are not areas to look for deals.

If your life is very simple, whose is these days, you can download something off the internet and it will work as well.

In my own case, the Trust owns all my NFA stuff, but I can use anything, and so can the XO and the Jr. Staff when they are old enough. When the Lord recalls me the weapons will remain with the family without any further money going to anyone.

If you live in an NFA state, and have the money, there is no real reason to not have such things.

I do like talking about this far more than the Obama-crap some people seem to be fixated on these days.

tim miller
09-20-2009, 09:54 AM
Tin foil perspectives and false fears have kept barrels long, guns loud, and often times slow firing for many so called Free Americans. Get a silencer and an SBR and step into the light
This is so very true! Not a day goes by that we don't have people in our store absolutely amazed that it is legal to own suppressors or short barreled rifle or shotguns!
Of course no one likes to wait for the paperwork to come back to play with their new toy, but it really is just a few weeks. We had one customer that told us it was like waiting for Christmas to come. You think it is a long ways away, and then all of a sudden itís here!

abinok
09-21-2009, 07:02 AM
Ive been mulling over the idea of SBRing a glock for some time... Its already got a slide mounted red dot, and I think it would be a great tool to 150ish yds with a stock. probably a lot further if the need arose.

What is keeping me from doing it is the legalities invloved in carrying a Glock 35 concieled that is legally a SBR. My State (OK) only discusses concieled pistols, revolvers and derrengers in its CCW law.

Chris Upchurch
09-21-2009, 07:21 AM
What is keeping me from doing it is the legalities invloved in carrying a Glock 35 concieled that is legally a SBR. My State (OK) only discusses concieled pistols, revolvers and derrengers in its CCW law.

I'm not a lawyer, but I'd say that if it doesn't have the stock on it, it's not a rifle (and I doubt you'll be concealing it with the stock on).

lumbermanoh
09-21-2009, 10:46 AM
I've also pondered the whole SBR thing. Though I'm planning on selling my AR, if I don't get a reasonable offer I'll keep it and just set it back of the safe, maybe let go of some of the mags, and wait to get the money to have it SBR'd, get a suppressor, and a short upper.

Of course, I've got a lot of other items I need first. Money, for example.:(

I'd have to plan for my little boy to be in the will should a trust come about, also, as what's mine will be his one day.

bonehedz
09-24-2009, 05:53 PM
I'm not a lawyer, but I'd say that if it doesn't have the stock on it, it's not a rifle (and I doubt you'll be concealing it with the stock on).

Not quite...once a pistol, shotgun, or rifle is NFA approved, it is an NFA item forever. Thus the utility of a trust: it need not be transfered among members/trustees of said trust. Once your Glock is papered as a stocked pistol (NFA item) it does not matter if the stock is attached or not. However, only the receiver is technically papered...everything else is "a part or accessory"...make sense? I didn't think so either...:p

emmagee
02-02-2010, 03:11 PM
I have been doing this for 32 years. During the late '70s and mid '80s I was a dealer.
Get the weapon of your choice, get it on a Form 4 if your local CLEO will sign, and forget about it. No one is going to bother you. No one is going to knock on your door. The ATF has better things to do than worry about legal NFA owners.

There is always the possiblity, however remote, that the party could be brought to an abrupt end by the Government, but so far they have shown no real inclination to do so. The 1986 law cut off the production of transferables which has helped to drive the prices higher than any of us ever thought possible but...you can still own them.

Red Jacket
04-10-2010, 02:37 PM
I'm looking into getting a SBR'd AK sometime in the next year or two. Ideally I'd suppress it too. Just have to decide between 5.45 and 7.62 and then save up the money.
For what it's worth , I'd go 7.62 . Still a lot of ass out of a short barrel and EBR subsonics cycle with a can on there .

beltfed516
04-10-2010, 04:18 PM
At the risk of being the lone voice in the wilderness, let me just preface this by pointing out that I dearly LOVE shooting anything NFA (as indicated by my name on this forum). But, a few observations...

I had a 1928 Thompson SMG, 1977-1995. After the novelty wore off, I realized what it was costing me to feed the thing. Keep in mind this was ammo/component prices of 20 years ago, and yes, I reloaded. I can't imagine doing it today, unless all the WT folks make a helluva lot more dough than I do.

Nobody from the ATF ever came to my door. I suppose if there had been a homicide in the area with something full-auto and .45 cal. I probably would have been asked where my Tommy had been!

I had to move across the country in 1990, passing through a number of states that prohibited NFA guns. I dutifully phoned ATF to get their suggestions on exactly how I should go about this. Their advice was, and I quote, "You don't plan on being stopped, (by LE) do you?" Ok, well, no, and it's gonna be all the way forward in a 26' Ryder truck, so...

Anyway, I hope my fellow WT'ers don't view this as heresy, but as much fun as they are, I'd suggest saving the thousands a NFA piece would run you and buy ammo and magazines instead.

Red Jacket
04-10-2010, 04:51 PM
The more I think about it the more I lean that way too. It helps that I have a few thousand rounds of 7.62 and 20+ mags versus 300 5.45 and I think 4 or 5 mags. The only reason I was really contemplating 5.45 was low recoil.

What would be a good can to put on a SBR 7.62?
Well , I might be a little biased but I am pretty partial to the AK can's I make ;) . Folks have used Surefire and others to though . Only real concern is whether they'll warranty their can if you put it on a AK , most wont . You want to know up front , if you get a baffle strike whether it's your problem or the makers .

Red Jacket
04-11-2010, 07:39 AM
That BMF-AK-AL of your's looks interesting ;)

I could see one of those on that ZK MR SBR with the 10" rail.

I can actually feel my bank account draining:cool:
was showing one off last night with some subsonics :) The dog really appreciates it when I use those lol