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czeska
01-13-2005, 02:02 PM
Sounds like a lawsuit waiting to happen, but it would be tough to find a jury who wouldn't agree "that's what I would have done too!"

Family Captures Suspected Stalker

(original article here) http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=409745

The quick action of a teenage girl's family may have saved her from being abducted as she waited for a school bus this morning, police said.

A man suspected of stalking the 14-year-old at her bus stop was caught and beaten by two members of her family, police said.

Several hours later, the suspect was still in the hospital while neighbors were crediting the family with possibly saving the girl's life.

Investigators told ABC News affiliate WFTS-TV in Tampa the teenager said she had seen the same man drive past her bus stop several times over the last few weeks, both in the mornings and afternoons. She said he sometimes stopped to ask her where she was going or to tell her how nice she looked, police said.

On Wednesday, the girl told her parents that the man had become more aggressive, pulling in front of her and opening the door in an attempt to get her to go with him.

Based on that, the girl's father and uncle accompanied her to the bus stop today, where they spotted the suspect at the intersection of Ola Avenue and Indiana Street.

While they called police, the girl's family tried to restrain the man, who tried to get away, police said. A scuffle ensued, but the suspect, later identified as Alfredo Rivera, 45, of Spring Hill, got the worst of it, investigators said.

"I thought that it was school kids having a fight," one neighbor told WFTS-TV. "The guy was on the ground already. Every time he moved, he got kicked again."

Knife, Duct Tape Found in Vehicle

By the time police arrived, Rivera's face was bloodied badly enough to require treatment at Tampa General Hospital.

Police said they are not sure what his plans for the girl were, but they found a knife, duct tape, and pillows in the back of his station wagon.

He was charged with aggravated stalking and attempted armed kidnapping.

Police say they don't encourage people to take the law into their own hands, but neighbors were very supportive of the family.

"I'd have probably been out there kicking him too if I'd have known what was going on," another neighbor added. "I think [the family] did right. Street justice." [ABC News]

Young9mmGunner
01-13-2005, 02:17 PM
I wish that they would have given him another kick in the ribs for me. I had that problem about a year ago where my daughter goes to school(since then have moved). There was 2 actual abductions where the 2 girls were raped and almost 10 more attempts, that were either foiled by the kids screaming or a passerby saw what was happening. This s--t makes me sick.

The Searcher
01-13-2005, 03:01 PM
Kudos to the young lady for being observant and reporting her suspicions to her family.

Double kudos to her family for listening to her and taking it seriously. Too many families would dismiss it "silly."

This underscores the difficulty of knowing who's who when you intervene. What would you have done if you'd seen two men kicking and beating a man lying on the ground?

MTS
01-13-2005, 03:14 PM
Police said they are not sure what his plans for the girl were, but they found a knife, duct tape, and pillows in the back of his station wagon.
Anybody who cannot figure this one out please raise your hand.:rolleyes:

The Searcher brought up a good point about intervening, what would you do?

Steve Camp
01-13-2005, 03:50 PM
Anybody who cannot figure this one out please raise your hand.:rolleyes:

The Searcher brought up a good point about intervening, what would you do?

In many of the Tactical Scenarios we have discussed here at WT... multiple attackers constitutes disparity of force. In this case, there is already a person on the ground getting the sh*t kicked out of him. How many of us might have said in the past... "hmmm..... multiple attackers, disparity of force... person getting stomped on the ground.... geee... get out the blaster and go to work!" and we'd have been incorrect in our assumption of the situation. This point about intervening in a situation of which we do not have the full picture cannot be overemphasized enough: we get involved at our own peril (legal and physical), and we may very well get it wrong -- especially if we don't know any of the actors, and we did not see the entire scene unfold before us.

Liberty or Death
01-13-2005, 04:12 PM
In many of the Tactical Scenarios we have discussed here at WT... multiple attackers constitutes disparity of force. In this case, there is already a person on the ground getting the sh*t kicked out of him. How many of us might have said in the past... "hmmm..... multiple attackers, disparity of force... person getting stomped on the ground.... geee... get out the blaster and go to work!" and we'd have been incorrect in our assumption of the situation. This point about intervening in a situation of which we do not have the full picture cannot be overemphasized enough: we get involved at our own peril (legal and physical), and we may very well get it wrong -- especially if we don't know any of the actors, and we did not see the entire scene unfold before us.


Hmmmm.

Sounds like one of those moments when either a surreptitious draw or presenting to sul--while asking the assailants to cease and decease, until you can determine who's who---might be appropriate???

Liberty or Death
01-13-2005, 04:16 PM
I wish that they would have given him another kick in the ribs for me. I had that problem about a year ago where my daughter goes to school(since then have moved). There was 2 actual abductions where the 2 girls were raped and almost 10 more attempts, that were either foiled by the kids screaming or a passerby saw what was happening. This s--t makes me sick.

Well, if it's any small consolation, vermin such as these are pretty unpopular in prison.

Hopefully, when he's sent to the pen one of the other convicts will take it upon himself to put a shank in this bastard.

sepolvora
01-15-2005, 09:51 PM
...and "victim" on the ground?
Here that happens every once in a while.
People in poor quarters don't have enough police froce available, so every once in a while, they got fed up.
I remember a nasty case where a drug user was quite used to rob in a neighborhood where they were almost no men on daytime, so housewives organized themselves and one day they got this junkie, caught him, beat him with brooms and shovels, tied him with wire to a post and then burned the guy! Police barely got there to save him from an horrible death.
As I remember, nobody got to jail for that, but police did improve their pressence, tough.

Once I was in Guatemala when people from an indian town grab a repeated sexual offender. Local police rescued the guy and delivered him to the local judge. Indian elders came to the judge and demanded "the white" to be delivered, since in previous ocassions the same judge had released the child rapist.
Judge denied.
Indian insisted.
Judge ordered policemen to throw indians out.
Indians came back en masse and torched jail-police station-judge's office, along with the rapist, three cops... and the judge!
And I saw the pictures of the blackened corpses!
My point is when people feel law enforcement and judiciary system is not protecting them, sometimes they turn to do nasty things, even against the law.

Peace to everyone!

battleground
01-15-2005, 11:20 PM
In many of the Tactical Scenarios we have discussed here at WT... multiple attackers constitutes disparity of force. In this case, there is already a person on the ground getting the sh*t kicked out of him. How many of us might have said in the past... "hmmm..... multiple attackers, disparity of force... person getting stomped on the ground.... geee... get out the blaster and go to work!" and we'd have been incorrect in our assumption of the situation. This point about intervening in a situation of which we do not have the full picture cannot be overemphasized enough: we get involved at our own peril (legal and physical), and we may very well get it wrong -- especially if we don't know any of the actors, and we did not see the entire scene unfold before us.


This is a really good example to reinforce that there is a difference between a thinking warrior and a reacting fool. We all need to be the former and not the latter. Steve2267, thanks for raising the point.

Wylycoyte
01-15-2005, 11:35 PM
Anybody who cannot figure this one out please raise your hand.:rolleyes:

Well, I have a knife, duct tape, zip ties and some rope in my car right now. Many times I even have an Eee-ville "Assault Rifle" in the trunk, too.

Looks like the guy might have been up to no good, but its hard to say for certain.

pete f
01-16-2005, 12:44 AM
I am very glad that the family took this into their own hands.

I often hear stories about abusive boyfriends or coworkers who finally kill the person they have been abusing or harrassing and think, didn't she have a brother or cousin or father who would stand up to this stuff.

My daughter is 16, when she was 12 she was leaving the neighborhood swimming pool and realised she had left her towel behind. She ran back to get it and when she did she was followed by a guy in a Blazer who offered her a ride. She declined and ran to get her towel, as soon as she had picked it up this piece of manure tried to grab her and shove her into the Blazer. She got her feet up and kicked the door closed and while he was trying to open it she was screaming and managed to get a hand free and eye gouged the man. A by stander started to scream at him and he dropped my Daughter and drove off. The bystander got a full plate number and decent description, with the salient part being a hispanic Male with a lizard or similar tattoo on his neck. In talking to the patrol cops and the Detectives later, I was stunned to find out that they knew about this guy and he had struck before raping several girls. NO public announcement was made about and when I called a local TV station, they told me that they had been asked not to report on it fearing public outrage and or scaring off the offender. I printed many hundred flyers and handed them out and posted about the neighborhood and was told by the police I was interferring with the investigation. I later found out the Blazer id'd by they bystander was found in a local mall parking lot, It was stolen and both rear window mechanisms and door handles had been broken off to prevent someone in the back from getting out. After the description of the Lizard tattoo was made public, not one more attack took place that we ever heard about.

My wife was angry at me for only putting my cell number on the flyer instead of telling people to contact Police. But I told her I was going to be the one to tell my daughter that he was never going to hurt her again if I ever found him.


I have a backhoe and no one would have missed him.

maybe not the most constructive thought, but it is my family to protect.

Liberty or Death
01-16-2005, 03:01 AM
Once I was in Guatemala when people from an indian town grab a repeated sexual offender. Local police rescued the guy and delivered him to the local judge. Indian elders came to the judge and demanded "the white" to be delivered, since in previous ocassions the same judge had released the child rapist.
Judge denied.
Indian insisted.
Judge ordered policemen to throw indians out.
Indians came back en masse and torched jail-police station-judge's office, along with the rapist, three cops... and the judge!
And I saw the pictures of the blackened corpses!
My point is when people feel law enforcement and judiciary system is not protecting them, sometimes they turn to do nasty things, even against the law.

Peace to everyone!

That account reminds me of the case of serial killer Pedro Alonso Lopez AKA The Monster of the Andes who was reputed to have abducted, raped and murdered hundreds of young girls throughout the '70s in Peru, Colombia, and Ecuador.

Early in this bastard's career as a serial murderer, he was caught by some Indios while trying to lure a young girl away. After kicking the hell out of this prick, the villagers were about to punch this fucker's ticket when a missionary happened along and managed to stop the lynching by convincing these folks to "let the law take care of it."

At that point, Lopez wasn't a suspect in any of the disappearances and since his intended victim was an Indio, he was only charged with attempted abduction and given a slap on the wrist by some asshole of a judge.

Also, since most of his victims were Indios, the authorities weren't really all that concerned with the fate of these missing children.

It wasn't until the early '80s that Lopez was caught and it was only after a flood had washed away the side of a hill and the remains of dozens of his victims were found that this hijo de puta was convicted.

Incredibly, this pinche culero was released in 1998 after serving a decade in an Ecuadorian prison and was transferred to a Colombian prison upon his release.

It's too damned bad those Indios that caught him didn't simply just cut his throat and been done with it. Such an expeditious course of action would have saved countless lives and Lopez would now be rotting in Hell rather than living at the expense of Colombia's taxpayers.

Liberty or Death
01-16-2005, 03:16 AM
My wife was angry at me for only putting my cell number on the flyer instead of telling people to contact Police. But I told her I was going to be the one to tell my daughter that he was never going to hurt her again if I ever found him.


I have a backhoe and no one would have missed him.

maybe not the most constructive thought, but it is my family to protect.

On the contrary, such thoughts are both constructive and gratifying. The killing of a stalker/child abductor is truly a sound and noble undertaking and any decent human being would enthusiastically approve of it.

At any rate, your kid did good in fending off this maggot until help arrived.

MTS
01-16-2005, 06:32 AM
Well, I have a knife, duct tape, zip ties and some rope in my car right now. Many times I even have an Eee-ville "Assault Rifle" in the trunk, too.

Looks like the guy might have been up to no good, but its hard to say for certain.
OK, but do you prowl school bus stops and try to entice 14 year old girls into your vehicle?

Wylycoyte
01-16-2005, 11:24 AM
OK, but do you prowl school bus stops and try to entice 14 year old girls into your vehicle?

No, I usually restrict my activities to bars and night clubs, particularly near college campuses. :D

Edit: Oh, and I almost forgot...hotels that are hosting sci fi cons are a pretty good bet, too, as those who were at the Symposium are aware of.

MTS
01-16-2005, 12:33 PM
No, I usually restrict my activities to bars and night clubs, particularly near college campuses. :D

Edit: Oh, and I almost forgot...hotels that are hosting sci fi cons are a pretty good bet, too, as those who were at the Symposium are aware of.
Did anyone get any photographs of our "co-guests" at the hotel? Words are just not capable of discribing them.:)

michael
01-16-2005, 01:44 PM
Police say they don't encourage people to take the law into their own hands, but neighbors were very supportive of the family.

I get so sick of hearing this I could puke. SCOTUS has already said the police are not there to protect us, so I guess we are just supposed to lie there and take it like a good little coward.:rolleyes:

Not me or mine--never.

MTS
01-16-2005, 02:05 PM
I get so sick of hearing this I could puke. SCOTUS has already said the police are not there to protect us, so I guess we are just supposed to lie there and take it like a good little coward.:rolleyes:
Remember to that was the "offical" announcement by some PR hack. I am sure the officers individual feelings were a little different.

Disciple
01-16-2005, 02:08 PM
Police said they are not sure what his plans for the girl were, but they found a knife, duct tape, and pillows in the back of his station wagon.

Anybody who cannot figure this one out please raise your hand.:rolleyes:

I hope that you would not come to a conclusion based on this alone. They didn't say those were the only items in the man's vehicle after all. I often have those three items myself, along with a lot of other junk. :eek:


I see if I had read a bit farther, I would have noticed Wylycoyte making my point for me.

Young9mmGunner
01-16-2005, 03:26 PM
If this ever happened to my child I would definitly not feel bad about going to jail IF I killed the bg. :D

sepolvora
01-16-2005, 04:39 PM
... a time some 25 years ago, a lad in our neighborhood took interest in showing his private parts to every lady or girl he crossed.
Our part of the town was really new, most were young families in their 20s, 30s and young kids and girls, so this guy got quite a clientele.
After my wife and the lady next door met this guy in the street, I went to the local police; they listened and say sorry, we don't have enough personnel to cover every street, and you know the rest, so I told myself, that's it.
When our neighboor told me (she was stydying psychology at that time) that these guys aren't normally violent, because their real problem is they are affraid of women, I imagine a better way to deal with him.
So I took a day from my job, wait at home until the guy arrived to my street (his cousin lived 3 houses away from ours), took some wooden toys that fill nicely into my closed fist and do not resemble an impact weapon ;) and went to knock on his door.
When he showed up, I took him away from the door and quite seriously told him that everybody in the block knew about his private exposure, that it was none of my bussiness, but I just need to prevent a crime, since a group of husbands were organizing a posse to "cut his balls and dick".
I didn't knew if that was for real or just a bluff, but anyway, I wanted to be no part in it.
He sweated 00 bucks, swore he was innocent, and I again told him, Not my bussiness, I'm no part of it.

That was 25 or more years ago, and I think last year my wife told me "Remember that flasher? He just came back to visit his family, he is old, weary, and as far as we know, behaves quite well, at least on my street.
As I said before:

"peace to everyone"

DaveJames
01-16-2005, 09:01 PM
sep, your story reminds me of an old partner of mine,,her nick name on the street, was "Slap Jack Sally", she was working a UC gig in sown town one night and had a flasher acost her, she showed intrest, and when he close enough,she popped ole Mr.Willy with a 12oz spring jack :D

sepolvora
01-16-2005, 09:43 PM
a spring jack, but got the idea...

Now listen to this one. Once I gave OC basic instruction to a group of security guards, then I recommended them to discard (or use for practice)the old cans after the date inscribed on the label.

there was a guy who kept his old 3 oz. OC, took it to the post and kept on playing games with the can aiming at his partner and doing nonsense like that. Eventually he went outside to try a "fast draw" but he ended up spraying his own hands. Not much damage to his eyes, so he quickly forgot it.

Not much later he felt the call of the nature, so he went for the toilet,... from where his partner listened him crying when he opened his fly and tried to pee with his hands still contamined with OC.

They told me the stuff is a real pain in ...
I don't know for sure.
Never tried, never will.

pete f
01-16-2005, 11:54 PM
I showed this thread to a friend of mine who grew up as a missionary kid in Argentina. He told me of a story he had heard in Argentina about some locals finding a man with a little girl. He said the legend was the locals took his manhood and nailed the end with a fence staple into the wooden floor of a shack and then lit the shack on fire. As the locals left he was tossed a dull knife, it was his choice.

TravisABQ
01-17-2005, 12:30 AM
I've heard that method is popular with Hell's Angels too...
Nails through the scrotum... razor blade.....

Great minds think alike.

--Travis--

MTS
01-17-2005, 06:12 AM
a spring jack, but got the idea...
Sometimes called a "blackjack".

Anthony
01-17-2005, 08:25 AM
These tales of street justice from South/Central America, remind me of Brazil. - It's been eight months away now. I'm home sick for sure.
This type of thing happens there too alot ! We use the word 'lynching' in portuguese to describe a situation when people dish out the 'law'. Very often the police end up having to protect someone just about to become a 'statistic' :D
Maybe the 'third world' isn't so backward after all. ;)
I have some complaints of course, but nothing I can't live with. :)
Good thread, and a good point from The Searcher & Steve2267.
Regards,
Anthony.