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View Full Version : anyone actually do any of this stuff?!!?



Killahillz
01-03-2005, 04:15 PM
I am a civilian who has a lust for guns. I tent to carry one off and on but have just bought a carry weapon for 7 day a week carry. I read the magazines and the websites and I always have one question: does anyone ever use all of the stuff you practice for?
When reading the magazines the scenarios are always in the 70s or 80s. On top of that it seems there are more gun ho ccw holder then there are occasions to defend yourself.
I know I know it is better to have it and not need it then not have it but need it. What I want is real life situations that people on this site have had to at the minimum brandish their ccw. police can offer their stories but I am more interested in civilians that felt that their lives or others in their immediate area were in enough danger that they felt they needed to present/point their ccw at the "attacker" thanks in advance.

Deaf Smith
01-03-2005, 05:34 PM
Kill,

I have a fire extinguisher in my car. I have one used it to put another persons car engine fire out. Never have I needed it for my self and most of the time it gets into the way. Still, I will aways have it there, just in case.

Same goes for my gun. Plus if you have the gun, you need to skill to use it well and safely.

Al Lipscomb
01-03-2005, 09:00 PM
Well you can dump about 95% of the stuff you see in the magazines and web sites. Gabe runs a clean site here so you can feel good about what you learn here.

I have had one incident in my life that would have justified a reaction with a firearm. This was a long time ago, and before I was old enough to carry (I am 42 now so do the math).

I have been in several situations where I was glad I had my firearm as things could have gone either way. Nothing dramatic just found myself in a bad place with bad people.

Due to the potential for legal problems, few people will post information about such things until all is clear from potential lawsuits.

mikey177
01-03-2005, 10:11 PM
What I want is real life situations that people on this site have had to at the minimum brandish their ccw.

Perhaps "brandish" isn't the appropriate term to use, as it connotes not really being in a life-threatening situation.

DaveJames
01-03-2005, 10:28 PM
I will not go into my involvement in shootings,but will say,that about 2 years ago an elder woman friend of mine finialy bought a pistol, she had been given the run around by some local shops due to her age,,at the time she was 76, when she bought her handgun,all she looked for was one like her husband had carried,a Ladysmith 32,she found a shop keeper who talked her into a H&R 32mag, we spent 2 days going over it and shooting it,less then 3 days later she shot and killed a 17 year old,who had broke into her home,,and had threathen her with a 2 foot long screwdriver, as he layed dieing on the fronts steps he told the Cops on the scene,he just wanted to have a little fun with the ole bat.

She got her carry permit,a month later and carrys to this day,and once a month we get together and shoot on the range.

Remember we {Cops} are not tasked with protecting you,we are tasked with keeping the GENERAL order, if we can get to you we will,,but you are on your own about 80% of the time I would say in a large city

Q-ball
01-04-2005, 04:34 AM
I am more interested in civilians that felt that their lives or others in their immediate area were in enough danger that they felt they needed to present/point their ccw at the "attacker" thanks in advance.

Most of us here will not go to certain places where we think that our life or our family's lives will be threatened. If a situation develops, we try to have the awareness of that situation before it gets out of hand and be out of the area. It is more about avoidance than attack.....until that day.

lead_magnet
01-04-2005, 07:08 AM
Hello and welcome hillahillz,


Im a 21 year old citizen, and there have been very few days since the day i turned 18 when i have not had my weapon on my person (most of the time open carry).

LONG STORY BELOW

Here is a 2 day old senario where I was able to keep a situation from getting out of had just by giving a physical sugjestion that i had a weapon (body language).

2 days ago, i was asleep in bed when i hear a knock at the door. My mother was awake with a friend so i let her anwser it. Then i hear the voice of my pregnant down stairs neighbor requesting to use her phone to call a friend to pick up her boyfriend who was asleep at her doorstep downstairs. (drunk).

Anywhoo, she makes the call, and leaves. 5 minuets later, i am woken up again, this time by banging noises comming from the apartment below. I jump up and get dressed and tuck my 1911 into my pants and meet my mother in the living room ( who BTW is a police officer ). We go downstairs to find the woman standing outside, banging on her own door. She then told us that her boyfriend locked her outside, and was now inside the apartment with the womans daughter (2 years old i believe). Naturaly at his point im begining to think worse case senario, and im gonna have to bust into the house to keep a child from being hurt. (a call to the police is being made at this time).

My mother is able to talk the man out of the apartment, who seems decently sober, but still felt the need to have a short push shove spurt with the woman. My mother calmed them both down then the woman and my mother headed up the stairs, leaving me alone with a drunk russian guy angrily looking at the only guy between him and my mother, the pregnat woman, and my apartment.

I take a step back onto the steps, and the man starts to try and follow me up the stairs, at this point, im now standing in between the metal railing of the stairs that will slow me down, and behing me are steps, that will also slow me down, so naturily i'm begining to feel a little traped, so i admit, i shouldn't have done this yet, but moved my shirt out of the way with my right hand, and got a good combat grip on my pistol and gave the guy an evil look. At this point, his eyes got large, and he stoped dead in his tracks.

Theres just one example from my life, and again, im only 21.

LM

Killahillz
01-04-2005, 08:19 AM
I have to say the site seems really good so far and I have been a member for only about 18 hours and I was asleep for 8 of those.

Really what I wanted to know is how people have used the presence of their CCWs to defuse potentially volatile situations. I am actually less interested in shootings and more in using the CCW as a deterrent. Lead Magnet’s story is perfect example of what it is I am curious about.

I agree that learning, practice and sharpening of skills are all essential to carrying a weapon. I would prefer to practice my self-defense skills much more then golf skills (I have none) as Sweatnbullets pointed out. I guess I posted this thread because sites/magazines seem to provide examples of worst case scenerio’s and how it could happen to you if you do not carry. They seem to encourage paranoia. I prefer to just be encouraged of being aware of my surroundings and not putting myself in a situation. I think Q-Ball sums it up well. That being said any other examples are greatly appreciated.

Thanks


10304

michael
01-04-2005, 09:39 AM
You should not think of your CCW as a deterrent, though it may be. Your CCW is a tool to get you and others out of harms way, nothing more and nothing less. You cannot rely on a gun, or a bazooka for that matter, as a deterrent. It might work, but I have seen many people who are not deterred in the slightest by the sight of a gun, and I have seen many of them charge the gun holder. The gun is a tool to end the violent attack or threatend attack (if lethal) of an aggressor. Any deterrent effect it may have is a bonus, but you should NEVER pull a gun unless you are fully prepared to use it, legally, mentally and morally.

There is a great responsibility that comes with carrying a firearm. Being mentally prepared and morally right in taking a life is something you must think long and hard about beforehand, not when the moment of truth arrives. You are responsible every time you pull that weapon and for each round that goes out of the barrel. All of us who carry should strive to avoid dangerous situations as much as possible and not place ourselves in situations needlessly where we may be forced to use our weapon.

Killahillz
01-04-2005, 11:02 AM
There is a great responsibility that comes with carrying a firearm. Being mentally prepared and morally right in taking a life is something you must think long and hard about beforehand, not when the moment of truth arrives. You are responsible every time you pull that weapon and for each round that goes out of the barrel. All of us who carry should strive to avoid dangerous situations as much as possible and not place ourselves in situations needlessly where we may be forced to use our weapon.

I guess that is my main question. When is it appropriate to draw and potentially use a CCW. I know all states are different and there are pretty clear cases of when to use it or not use it.

But it is that gray area I think I am trying to get examples of. When have other members felt that their only option was to draw and if the sight of the weapon in that situation was a deterrent?

I know I have to read the law about this and I know there are too many books to name about the legal aspects of using a ccw. I am probably going to end up taking a course at SIG Academy just because of the huge legal responsibility of having a ccw.

This forum seems to be about “what would you do” and I guess I am asking, “what did you do”

As an aside I typically do not carry that often because of the gray area with when is appropriate for me to get involved in a situation unfolding in front of me. There was a shooting recently up here that sounded like murder to me and I believe the shooter was indicted of 2nd degree. The scenario was that 2 guys started arguing about speeding on the road they both live on. Guy number one was the speeder and guy number 2 was the complainer. 2 went to 1’s house and they started arguing. 1 got a bat and hit 2 with it. 2 went to car and got gun and shot 1. He claimed self-defense. I see that he left the scene and got to his car and came back so he was not defending himself at that point. In this same situation if 2 was carrying his weapon and pulled out and warned 1 not to come closer and 1 came closer is 2 justifiable in shooting him then?

I know this is the million dollar question and the is why I am interested in examples of when people who carry have used their “tool” (I like this definition of ccw) to survive a situation that could have ended badly.

Thanks

Lou Costello
01-04-2005, 11:20 AM
I'll throw in a case. Attempted car-jacking. I was a witness.

I was sitting in a line at a traffic light on Straight Street, Paterson. Broad daylight. I was in a ratty borrowed pick up truck. The guy in front of me was driving a high end auto. 3 'urban utes' came up to his closed and locked passenger door and started jerking on the door handle, banging on the window. The driver drew a big shiny revolver with his right hand and pointed it at the 'urban utes' at a distance of maybe 12 inches. The 'utes' scattered. The light changed to green and we all drove away.

Al Lipscomb
01-04-2005, 12:41 PM
With questions like this I would recomend a good class on the actual use of firearms for defensive tasks. Gabe's Close Range Gunfighting covers a lot of the material that you are having questions about.

Here is another way to think about it: When you are willing to be arrested, transported and booked into jail pending the investigation of your showing the handgun.

Not a pretty picture.

MTS
01-04-2005, 02:24 PM
...In this same situation if 2 was carrying his weapon and pulled out and warned 1 not to come closer and 1 came closer is 2 justifiable in shooting him then?
This would be murky because 2 went to 1's house and started the confrantation. If 1 ballbatted 2 just because 1 was tired of arguing and then continued to advance on 2 then 2 would be justified in shooting.

If however 1 ballbatted 2 because 2 said he had a firearm and gave indications of using it then 2 is wrong.

In addition to training at Sig Arms academy (and with Gabe if you can) you might also look at taking a class from Massod Ayoob. He really gets into the legal side of things.

The Searcher
01-04-2005, 04:03 PM
Originally posted by Speed Is Life:
I would be quick to point out that carrying a firearm means that you lose the right to be angry. You also must be willing to take any harmless abuse that comes your way. That is a good thing.
Listen to what Speedy is telling you. Now, tell us, do you think following someone to their house so that you can continue an argument is a good idea?

IMHO, if #2 had done anything but leave, he would be in trouble. If #2 had pulled his pistol, he might have saved his life but gone to prison. Think about what Speedy said and apply it here.

You need to learn the law and you need to learn about situational awarenss and how to avoid trouble.

Attend several good classes and read all the books you can. Keep reading and studying. Keep in mind that not all information is good or applies to your jurisdiction.

You might want to invest in an hour's worth of question and answer with a local attorney. You will learn a lot, can decide if you want to use this person should you need one, and paying for the hour is a good introduction to what you will go through financially should you use your pistol.

Glocku2death
01-04-2005, 04:19 PM
You need to take LFI-1 from Massod Ayoob and then take CRG-1 from Gabe Suarez. I think that would answer most of your questions and prepare you for a confrontation with a BG and the lawyers afterwards.

Joe Average
01-04-2005, 04:37 PM
Seriously, the "stuff" I'm learning/doing has nothing to do with "brandishing" or preparing to "present/point".

Anthony
01-04-2005, 05:05 PM
Killahillz,
You've had some great responses so far. About keeping calm, ignoring verbal abuse, taking courses etc etc.
You asked if we would recount when we needed our handgun, and when to 'present' etc.
Most people who have needed their gun, didn't shoot it. Although if they hadn't had it, they would probably have been victims.
Have I needed a gun in Brazil ? - Yes often.
Have I killed anyone in Brazil yet ? - Certainly not to my knowledge. :)
Being ready to 'present' ( hand gone to gun in pocket, in my car etc ?) - Too numerous to remember. Sometimes a daily occurance during the day.
Actual presentations - ( Not including time in the prospecting camps in the Amazon,) maybe half a dozen.
Warning shots - ( likewise above ) once. BEFORE ANYONE COMMENTS about warning shots, I know, I know, but it's a different culture there. And sometimes it resolves things. :D
Regards,
Anthony.

Anthony
01-04-2005, 05:11 PM
I forgot :o WHEN TO DRAW/PRESENT etc ?
I just sort of knew. It was obvious. Call it mindset, paying attention, sixth sense etc. Some of us just 'feel' it in the air.
Regards,
Anthony.

Killahillz
01-04-2005, 05:54 PM
i have gotten a lot of good answers here. i have been on packing.org going over my state laws and i think it is pretty clear in theory of course practice is a bit different. I want to thank everyone on the site for their insight

Firearmz
01-10-2005, 05:29 AM
This is a short article from Tom. I can assure you that being in Memphis Tenn. As you can read, two people felt they did not need there gun that day.

Carry Your Gun (By Tom Givens, Rangemaster)

I have been teaching firearms use for 29 years now, the last eight years full time. I have trained around 1,000 military personnel, a few hundred police officers, and thousands of private citizens. In 2005, Rangemaster will graduate the 20,000th basic course student, plus I have taught another 1,000 students in road classes all over the United States.
A lot of my military and police students have been involved in shootings over the years, as that is in the nature of their jobs. When considering only the private citizen students, however, I know of almost forty who have been involved in shoot-outs with criminals. The students have won in every single case I am aware of. I may not know about every instance when a student defends himself, but I’m sure I know about most of them. Usually, one of the first things a student does after a confrontation is report back to the school that trained him.
To the best of my knowledge, I have had two private citizen students who were killed by armed criminals after their training, in separate incidents. Both had one thing in common- they were not armed when they were killed. For whatever reason, both decided NOT to carry a gun on the fateful day, and both paid with their lives. I don’t care how highly trained you are, a one-sided gunfight is a good way to lose if the other side is the one that’s armed. One thing you will NEVER get to decide is which days you will need your gun. Someone else makes that decision, and you will only be informed at the last minute. That’s OK, as long as you have your gear.

mk86fcc
01-10-2005, 11:25 AM
Lots of good responses here. Keep in mind, if you're going to carry, you must decide ahead of time you're willing to use. Only you can answer that. I would also recommend, if you're going to carry - carry always - if you think you're just going to strap it on when you're going somewhere you might need it, perhaps you should rethink going there. You asked about instances when basically the mere presence of a firearm was enough to defuse a situation. I had one not too long ago, the results of which I posted here:

http://www.warriortalk.com/showthread.php?t=2596

Did I handle it perfectly? No. Do I feel the outcome would have been different had I not been carrying? Probably. One of the things I would do differently is go ahead and dial 911 and made a report - yes, it would eat up a bunch of my time - but perhaps it would keep someone else from a run in with these urban entrepenuers.

MarkBouquet
01-14-2005, 01:36 PM
Hi Killahilz,

[QUOTE=Killahillz] What I want is real life situations that people on this site have had to at the minimum brandish their ccw. QUOTE]

As can be expected, you have had a number of excellent replies to your question. However there is one aspect that I would like you to consider.

A firearm is not a talisman that wards off evil by it's mere presence. Unlike the vampire who is neutralised by the mere sight of a crucifix, serious people (on both sides of the law) do not automatically capitulate at the mere sight of a weapon - any weapon, but especially not a pistol.

A weapon is just a single aspect of an adversary - mindset, commitment, experience/prior conditioning, tactical awareness and skill are all part of the equation.

The fact that I have justifiably and sucessfully intervened on more than one occasion to interrupt a crime in progress, or apprehend an attacker, as I have, can not be narrowed down to one variable, namely whether I was armed at the time and displayed a weapon. Nor do I believe that that single variable can then be extrapolated and any conclusions generally applied, as every situation is unique.

In short, the weapon is only one aspect of what needs to be considered, the other aspects can not be neglected and may be more important.

Good luck on your journey.