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rgrgak
01-01-2005, 11:35 AM
I've been looking around for an intermediate weapon - something that gives some advantages over the handgun while still being more portable/concealable than rifles or shotguns.

I thought about subguns like the Uzi, but the ones that have shoulder stocks and longer sight radiuses don't appear to be significantly more concealable than a short AR15 or AK47. Smaller versions don't seem to give much advantage over my Glocks. Yes, they have 30-round magazines. But I've already got a few 33-round G18 mags for my Glocks.

I thought about Thompson Contenders and similar handguns chambered for rifle cartridges. These should give a significant boost in barrier penetration capability. They should also increase my practical range/accuracy potential. But these are low-capacity bolt-action guns. I'd prefer a high-cap semi-auto.

I thought about the Kel-Tec SUB-2000. It can fold into a 16" long package for easy concealability. Folded out, it gives a shoulder stock and long sight radius which should greatly improve practical range/accuracy. It can use my Glock magazines, so that's a nice bonus.

What have you others found as qualifications / candidates for intermediate weapons?

Dan-O
01-01-2005, 11:45 AM
How about a Short Carbine?
AK pattern?(Krinkov type)
M4gery(11.5 inch or shorter)

Intermediate would mean more powerfull chambering than average pistol round but not full powered like 7.62x51 or 30 06,yes?

Did I misunderstand your question?
Only other thing I could think of is would be one of those newfangled PDW thingies that HK is pushing.
Peraps David Defabio could give better input on this.
Tim Mullin probably knows way more about this too.
I never actually thought about an intermediate between a pistol and carbine being anything other than a subgun.
:confused:

rgrgak
01-01-2005, 11:46 AM
I picked up a Bushmaster Carbon 15 Pistol yesterday. It has several advantages for the intermediate role:

- It is only 20" in length, so I can put it in the backback I carry to work every day (with a notebook computer also inside). I found I can fit it into three of the five notebook computer cases I have sitting around the house. I even can fit it into an old hard-side briefcase if I remove the compensator. So I could carry this daily into the office building where I work without a second glance. Most resturants would also be fine as long as I occasionally pull the computer, a notepad, or a book out of the bag to show its innocent purpose. (Many retail establishments probably wouldn't go so well as they're afraid I'll use the bag for shoplifting.)

- It fires 5.56 NATO ammunition. I know that the short (7.25") barrel will reduce the velocity and I thus won't get the normal 5.56's performance, but it should still out-perform typical handgun rounds. (Does anyone have any barrier penetration testing data on 5.56 out of short barrels?)

- The sight radius is double that of my G19 (and more than 50% longer than on my G34), so that should give me some increase in practical accuracy/range.

- When desired, it should produce much better psychological intimidation effects than a handgun.

- It uses standard M16 magazines - which is nice for commonality with my full-sized AR-15.

I'm still looking at other options, but this one has potential.

rgrgak
01-01-2005, 11:49 AM
How about a Short Carbine?
AK pattern?(Krinkov type)
M4gery(11.5 inch or shorter)

Intermediate would mean more powerfull chambering than average pistol round but not full powered like 7.62x51 or 30 06,yes?

Did I misunderstand your question?
Only other thing I could think of is would be one of those newfangled PDW thingies that HK is pushing.
Peraps David Defabio could give better input on this.
Tim Mullin probably knows way more about this too.
I never actually thought about an intermediate between a pistol and carbine being anything other than a subgun.
:confused:

I was looking for something intermediate between the handgun and the AR/AK stuff you were considering intermediate. Those are still a little hard to conceal for many environments. I'd also prefer to avoid having to mess with NFA stuff.

Steve Camp
01-01-2005, 02:47 PM
Good Lord! For what reason do you feel the need to pack such firepower? Are you expecting a hit by Columbians?

How about a Mossie SBS?

Various Uzis or MP5s (MP-5K ?) should fold up and fit into your pack... but you don't like these because? of the cartridge they fire? Not enough power? But they have the advantage of a stock...

What will the recoil of a Carbon-15 be like without a stock? Will that even be shootable?

How about a CAR-15 with a 7.5" bbl? Of course, such a SBR will require a tax stamp from the Feds...

What about a 1911 in .45Super with a MechTech Carbine conversion?

This suggestion will probably require custom work (in addition to a tax stamp): a .30-30 lever action carbine with a cut down barrel, and a folding stock...

I'm oughta thoughts...

rgrgak
01-01-2005, 04:02 PM
Good Lord! For what reason do you feel the need to pack such firepower? Are you expecting a hit by Columbians?

How about a Mossie SBS?

Various Uzis or MP5s (MP-5K ?) should fold up and fit into your pack... but you don't like these because? of the cartridge they fire? Not enough power? But they have the advantage of a stock...

What will the recoil of a Carbon-15 be like without a stock? Will that even be shootable?

How about a CAR-15 with a 7.5" bbl? Of course, such a SBR will require a tax stamp from the Feds...

What about a 1911 in .45Super with a MechTech Carbine conversion?

This suggestion will probably require custom work (in addition to a tax stamp): a .30-30 lever action carbine with a cut down barrel, and a folding stock...

I'm oughta thoughts...

Not expecting any particular threat. Just always looking for a way to improve my capabilities while maintaining a "normal" appearance. The 20" length of the new Carbon 15 Pistol just barely squeezes into the bags that would be considered "normal" in the places I spend most of my time. So I want to get the most I can in something no larger.

Most of the non-NFA Uzi's, MP5's, etc. I've looked at still end up over 26" (even when folded) to comply with federal standards. (I'd prefer not to get into the NFA hassles, although that might be the best way to get what works.)

The Carbon 15 Pistol is very controllable. I just got back from the range and it wasn't bad at all. My accuracy was no better than what I normally get from my Glocks, but it's new and I need practice on it.

DragonRider
01-01-2005, 06:57 PM
A thought and a question. Couldn't you use the Carbon 15 pistol with a sling stock and a red dot? Also what ammo? Personally I would go the Keltec.

John

rgrgak
01-01-2005, 08:31 PM
A thought and a question. Couldn't you use the Carbon 15 pistol with a sling stock and a red dot? Also what ammo? Personally I would go the Keltec.

John

I've heard of sling stocks but never tried one. I'll have to read up on that. I thought about the red dot, but that seems more a step to "fine-tune" the capabilities once I've verified that this system is otherwise worth the hassle.

Today, I just shot Winchester white-box 5.56 through it. I may adjust that later. I haven't really dug yet to see what's available on the civilian market in 5.56 NATO.

The Kel-Tec is appealing. The advantages I'm looking for are better ballistics (particularly in regards to barrier penetration) and increased practical range & accuracy. The Carbon 15 Pistol should offer the former, but may or may not significantly help with the latter. The Kel-Tec will definitely help with the latter, but probably won't help much with the former. Better range & accuracy may be more important, though, as they can allow me to "work around" my enemy's cover rather than trying to just shoot through it.

I'll keep experimenting. Keep the suggestions coming.

InTheBlack
01-01-2005, 10:15 PM
>>>
Not expecting any particular threat. Just always looking for a way to improve my capabilities while maintaining a "normal"
appearance.
>>>

That's a lot of weight to haul around for no particular reason. Not to mention that it can't be deployed in time to help you in the most likely situation (ie thug vs terrorist attack).

rgrgak
01-01-2005, 11:16 PM
That's a lot of weight to haul around for no particular reason. Not to mention that it can't be deployed in time to help you in the most likely situation (ie thug vs terrorist attack).

I'm not expecting to replace the handgun, but to supplement it. The handgun is still the gun that will be most readily available. But if a situation warrants something more, it seems better to have the "more" just a few feet away rather than across the street.

I said that there isn't a particular threat, but I didn't say there was no reason to have something like this available. The reason for something beyond the handgun is the same as the reason for the handgun. There are bad people in the world and sometimes they can only be stopped by deadly force. Sometimes, the force required may be more than can be readily supplied by the average handgun.

Gabriel Suarez
01-02-2005, 07:58 AM
How 'bout a Winchester 16" bbl 30-30, or if you prefer, in .44 Mag. Its short enough, and can have the stock shortened even more. It will fit in a baseball bat bag, and if you lose it to thieves (sometimes you may need to leave it in the car), its not as big a deal as if it was a $900 piece.

rgrgak
01-02-2005, 10:18 AM
How 'bout a Winchester 16" bbl 30-30, or if you prefer, in .44 Mag. Its short enough, and can have the stock shortened even more. It will fit in a baseball bat bag, and if you lose it to thieves (sometimes you may need to leave it in the car), its not as big a deal as if it was a $900 piece.

I've already got a 16" bbl 30-30 (34" overall), and several other fairly compact rifles and shotguns. But those are still longer than practical. Evereything I have with a shoulder stock - even when folded, is still over 26" in accordance with federal regulations. I can take my AR15 apart and carry it in two sections, but the upper is still 25".

The bags/cases for sporting equipment or for musical instruments are useful as concealment of these long-guns in many situations. They will allow for unobtrusive carrying while traveling and in several other situations. But they will seem out of place if carried daily to work in an office building, or from my truck into a resturant, or in some other situations.

I'm already carrying either a backpack, a notebook computer bag, or a briefcase with me into the office every day. It contains a notebook computer, a notepad (with pens), the day's backup tapes for the company's data, etc. It also contains bandages, a spare flashlight, spare batteries, spare ammo (G18 mags), a spare knife, etc.

I can easily keep a long gun hidden in my truck, but I work above the 60th floor in an office building and my truck is in a parking garage across the street. That's far enough away to be useless during the day. A truck-gun is still potentially useful during my daily commute (about 35-miles each way), but it is then left in the unattended vehicle for most of the day. I've thought about smuggling a long-gun into the office and hiding it there, but that presents some other risks. (Security from others - particularly when I'm not there, the ability to check its status or maintain it, the ability to carry it out with me if the company and I part ways, etc.)

Many Americans have learned to be suspicious of things that are out of place - particularly people carrying bags in areas where they don't seem appropriate, wearing heavy coats in warm weather, etc. If I walk into a resturant with a sporting equipment bag, I should be viewed with suspicion unless I just got off a bus or out of a taxi. A musical instrument bag will work sometimes, but will eventually cause questions. Even if those questions are friendly and non-suspicious, your refusal to show the instrument to the curious may lead to suspicion.

If I carry a normal backpack or other "book bag" into a resturant, I may be momentarily viewed with suspicion. But if I pull a book, newspaper, etc. out of the bag to read while I eat lunch, all suspicion of that bag will disappear.

I normally carry a backpack instead of a notebook computer bag due to the higher theft-risk of the latter. (I expect a musical instrument bag would likewise be a higher theft-risk.) I have prepared myself to deal with those who would attempt to steal my posessions, but I don't want to tempt them unnecessarily.

So I'm still looking for ways to increase my capability while being able to store everything in a normal looking backpack, briefcase, or other "book bag".

Here are the specifications:

- Be no more than 20" in length. Shorter is preferred as 20" is a tight fit in my currently available bags. Being folded or disassembled is fine as it can be pulled from the bag and made functional in no more than 15 seconds. (Suggestions concerning longer - but still appropriate - bags are welcome.)

- Significantly increase the practical range from that normally achievable with common handguns.

- Significantly increase the barrier-penetration capabilities from that of common handgun ammunition.

It may be that this will require two different devices - one to provide increased range and one to provide increased barrier penetration, but both in one would be preferred.

I realize that at the conclusion of this search, I may decide that the extra capabilities offered aren't worth the associated risks and hassles at this time. But I will have still learned some new options and others here may currently have risks that warrant these options.

rgrgak
01-02-2005, 11:30 AM
As I think about it, a rifle with a detachable barrel seems to be a good solution. Since the barrel of a rifle must be at least 16" (unless I want to go the NFA route), then separating that as the long piece would appear to solve the problem.

The Kel-Tec SUB-2000 does this. I've seen a .22 rifle that breaks down and stores into the plastic stock. Are there similar things available in higher calibers?

MTS
01-02-2005, 12:21 PM
Have you thought about an AR-7?

http://www.ar-7.com/images/AR-7.JPG

They break down and the pieces are stowed in the buttstock.

Steve Camp
01-02-2005, 12:31 PM
Kel-Tec Sub2000
Advantages

1) size -- folded, it appears to meet your requirement
2) models are available that will accept your Glock18 mags
3) increased 9mm performance due to 16" bbl
4) probably do not have to go the NFA route

Disadvantages

1) calibre -- it is still only 9mm
2) you may be overdriving the 9mm; i.e. you may cause the 9mm ammo to exceed it's designed velocity window, causing the bullets to fragment prematurely or not as they are designed to do
3) durability / reliability -- all unknowns. While Kel-tec appears to stand behind their products... their warranty won't help you if you need the Sub2000 to function and it breaks


CAR-15 or M4gery w/ 10.5" bbl, collapsible stock
Advantages

1) calibre: 5.56mm potentially gives you the performance you desire
2) ability to mount accessories, red dot sights etc
3) ammunition capacity (that is if you have room to store 20 or 30rd AR mags -- gonna get heavy)

Disadvantages

1) barrel length: 10.5" bbl (or shorter) will cause you to lose a LOT of terminal ballistic performance; you may not be able to realistically use M193 or M855 ball... and instead have to rely exclusively on commercial hollowpoint or ballistic tip loads -- will you still achieve necessary velocity for the hollowpoint / ballistic tip to reliably expand? What is their performance through barriers?
2) muzzle blast will be excessive
3) ammunition supply limited by volume contents of your now overstuffed bag
4) NFA -- you will need the Federal tax stamp (possibly among other things); potential issues with your transporting an NFA weapon over hill and dale (even if it is only locally)
5) You will still have to assemble the upper and lower receivers
6) Not ammunition compatible with your sidearm (Glock 9mm)


I think your best bet is to find a shoulder mounted weapon that will also use your G18 mags... This seems to restrict you to either the Kel-Tec Sub2000, or the (unobtainable in USA) IMI Para Micro-Uzi. Another option would be some version of an H&K MP5 (MP5K?). Of course, all sorts of NFA issues arise with either MP5K (and the Para Micro-Uzi -- if it was even importable into the USA).

Back to that .30-30... Could a good smith create for you a detachable stock? So you'd have to assemble the stock and receiver... but that may be doable within a 15second time period.

Ron_Miami
01-02-2005, 04:58 PM
I can easily keep a long gun hidden in my truck, but I work above the 60th floor in an office building and my truck is in a parking garage across the street.

I think if I worked in a high rise building, I would pack a smoke hood instead of a second weapon.

kyle reese
01-02-2005, 05:44 PM
I think the backpacks like college student type/outdoorsy sports people carry is a great idea for carrying a weapon that augments your CC daily sidearm.

Big problem for you though is when the cops show up to deal with the situation, if they spot you with a longgun, even if you're on the phone to them, they will probably shoot you. Those guys will probably be carrying slugs in a shotgun or more likely nowadays an M4 variant. Good luck. I've thought about carrying a .308 Rem 700 Youth (short LOP, 20 in barrel) ADL in my trunk with an ammo pouch, light etc. Deploying it against a criminal shooter scares me to death from a legal standpoint, as well as getting shot by an LE who's probably as freaked out about the situation as me. It would be terrible confusion. Clint Smith said in an interview a while back that if he was around a shooting he'd most likely escape rather than intervene on someone's behalf. He was that wary of the legal consequences.

Of course, there are lots of times when shooting is necessary.

Could you get some bigger bags/folders stuff you use? That would help a lot.

Weight is a very tough concern here. You have to carry this in easy moving style all day with you and not get weighted down/cumbersome. I think the Carbon 15 and a little idea I'll get to further along are the best bets in the weight area.
I don't think a rifle round is going to work due to the size restrictions.

Of what is available, a TC Contender with a folding stock in say .223/5.56 would be good. Hey the old time Army and Cavalry troops got pretty good with breechloaders and such. Good ammo carry gear and lots of practice+a good sidearm to transition to and I wouldn't feel bad about a single shot for the scenarios you envision. With the rifle round and say a 16 or 18 inch barrel you can defeat all soft armor all day. I doubt if TC makes a true NATO spec chamber, probably .223.

I think such a gun would be subject to the overall length folded rule or such. I don't think you can ttake a pistol and put a folding stock on it. Not sure of the rules could someone help rgrgak and out on this?

So it's pretty much a pistol round. Which makes me think: this intermediate weapon should be a step up over my handgun that will at least enable me to get back to my car where I have a rifle caliber compact weapon, such as a rifle with folding stock TC to M4s AKs, to etc. Sure, I'd rather just have the rifle with me all the time instead of the intermediate, but this is life. Plus the size issue again, so I see your goal with the intermediate idea.

If you have to fight your way/shoot to escape to upgrade to a rifle in your car you are in one serious situation, and thankfully, a rare one for civilians.

My primary consideration for packing such a gun (intermediate) would be dealing with the random active public/workplace shooter. Dealing with these types has been discussed a lot here on WT. Or getting caught in the immediate area of a robbery, hijacking, attempted rape/murder, etc. Or, there could be a major panic or crisis in society at large or a disaster in the area/riots/, etc. Again, I see where this intermediate weapon could help get you to your other weapons in the car, or if the car is lost, help get you to a residence or other location you have weapons prepared.

(Personally, I hope if I ever need an intermediate as you say or need to fight/retreat to my full size weapons at home it is to obliterate the zombie hordes and save life as we know it. We could, if we made it, start over with a return to the true meanings of our Constitution. And other cool things.)

If I had my way, such a weapon would be capable of penetrating body armor, widely used now by serious people. Within the space and size limitations you've described it is very difficult indeed to find not only a weapon that meets your criteria, but is also good at it and comfortable to use.

A pistol round is in order. One of your criteria for the weapon is increasing the practical range and accuracy. This will enable head shots to overcome the body armor (god forbid you find yourself in this situation, but if you do, give em hell).

If we had access to lots of things, some great stuff for you could be worked up even in .223. Micro Tavor? FNP90? HK PDW? HK UMP .45? (Customed out to something like .40 Super, OH... COOPER's Compact THUMPER?) I saw a micro AR with like an 7 inch barrel and a telestock in Guns and Weapons for LE/Military magazine cover story once. Impressive.

Daydreaming all day does not help us. I think the Carbon 15 with a shooting sling and some training from a pro would be good with an EOtech and or open night sights. Even if you have to get it custom done (search for Kurt's Kustom AR15 on yahoo, he's a great smith), get a flash suppressor that is say a few inches long with a closed bottom. It will help with blast and with the closed bottom has a brake effect of sorts. Flash much reduced=great thing in buildings+low light. Better than a comp for your hearing. Compensators/brakes suck in my opinion and I am so glad the AWB is at least temporarily dead. If you can't mount an Eo, an aimpoint or maybe even better would be a Tasco Optima 2000 read dot LED with an enormous battery life. Use the sling. Carry 20 round mags. They fit in lots of backpack small pockets etc.

Attack a light maybe. Test for reliability of the weapon but also the ammo.

But I really like....a long slide Glock in 9mm, is it a G34 or such? with nite sights, 3.5 lb trigger, maybe a saddle mount for an Eo tech or Optima, carry a good weapon light for the rail, G18 mags. Doesn't someone make a 6 inch barrel for Glocks in 9mm? That would be nice. Threaded barrels are available for at least the G17, maybe put on a flash suppressor. But this idea all hinges on....

There is a shoulder stock being made for Glock pistols. It is quick detachable. It is skeletonized/rail style and is almost made of nothingit takes up so little space. I think it was designed for EP/bodyguards and such. Saw it in new products section of Guns and Weapons for LE mag. It is polymer (maybe it is FOBUS, it just might be), fits in the hollow space in the grip. Looked very compact but effective. Can civilians get/use these on the big Glocks?

If so I think this could only be better in 10mm. Even in 9 with the shoulder stock I think it would do pretty good.

Also, a .357 6inch revolver with adjustable sight or .44 is good too. You can hit pretty easy at 50 to 75 yards, but if the target is moving esp erratically to avoid getting shot it would be hard indeed. You really need a stock capable weapon, or I hope the sling really works.

I also agree that if I were in a high rise a good escape hood type stuff would be a better way to go, good hiking boots etc, knives (a big combat fixed blade in your backpack (compact Kukri?) is very reassuring and practical), flashlights, batteries, medikit, essentials, etc.. But if I carried a second firearm, it would be another bigger/spare handgun than I was already carrying for CCW hopefully.

I think a Springfield XD Tactical 5 inch 9mm would be nice to have as a second, or a G19/17. The big revolver also comes back in mind for me. Maybe a HK USP .357 Sig full size or expert/tactical size.

If I only carried one the firearm all the time in a bag/backpack, never on my body as true CCW, I would use a long barreled autoloader, probably in .357 Sig for a bit more flat shooting for range. I think the full size pistols are better for this bag carry than the 4inch models. Longer the better IMO. Maybe a G35 with long 6inch .357Sig barrel, since ammo commonality isn't an issue if only one gun is around.

The 9 probably shoots flat enough from the longer barreled guns.

This is an interesting concept/application.

Oh, forgot. Maybe a HK USC carbine broken down in a backpack would work, but only for the backpack. They are nice, but an intermediate would have to ready almost instantly unless you already were concealing a handgun.

Steve Camp
01-02-2005, 06:35 PM
Dunno if this could be broken down into easily re-assembled pieces... but it would allow you to utilize a G17 frame, and those G18 mags:

Mech Tech Glock Carbine (http://www.parts.cc/glock/Parts_Acc/Mech_Tech_Carbine.htm)

Steve Camp
01-02-2005, 06:40 PM
While you could not use your G18 mags... a Mech Tech 1911 Carbine might fit your bill.

Here's one place: AKJ Concealco LLC: 1911CCUs (http://www.concealco.com/miva/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=ACL&Category_Code=151CCU-1911)
Here's another:
460 Rowland Mech Tech Carbine Conversion Unit @ Clark Custom Guns (http://www.clarkcustomguns.com/mechtech.htm)

Homepage for Mech Tech Systems, Inc. (http://www.mechtechsys.com/)

Maybe in .460 Rowland (http://www.concealco.com/ccu_460row.html)...

Here is additional information on .460 Rowland @ Clark Custom Guns (http://www.clarkcustomguns.com/rowland.htm)

Steve Camp
01-02-2005, 07:03 PM
Upon further reflection... unless the Mech Tech CCU stock is removable, foldable, or otherwise collapsible... I doubt a Mech Tech CCU will fit your size constraints. IMO, a potentially nifty idea, though.

DaveJames
01-02-2005, 09:13 PM
rg, if you try a sling stock, the one I used worked off of the butt of the weapon,at the bottom and top of the pistol grip,,it looped around you off shoulder and came up under the strong arm,across the chest,you just used isometric pressure as you pushed out to sights, that and the shoulder muscles helped bring you on target,, one of the HALO type sights mite be a great improvement,over the irons on some thing like that.

MTS
01-02-2005, 09:38 PM
If you want something compatable with your Glock mags Olympic Arms is prepareing to release AR-15 carbines in 9mm and .40 that take Glock mags.

Kyle Reese,

Putting a shoulder stock on a Glock without also installing a 16inch barrel or regestering it as a SBR can earn you a 10 year vacation in Club Fed.

DaveJames
01-03-2005, 12:12 AM
Pop over to this site and take a look at the carbon-15 set up

www.c3sport.com

Kobra
01-03-2005, 12:39 AM
I picked up a Bushmaster Carbon 15 Pistol yesterday. It has several advantages for the intermediate role:

- It is only 20" in length, so I can put it in the backback I carry to work every day (with a notebook computer also inside). I found I can fit it into three of the five notebook computer cases I have sitting around the house. I even can fit it into an old hard-side briefcase if I remove the compensator. So I could carry this daily into the office building where I work without a second glance. Most resturants would also be fine as long as I occasionally pull the computer, a notepad, or a book out of the bag to show its innocent purpose. (Many retail establishments probably wouldn't go so well as they're afraid I'll use the bag for shoplifting.)

- It fires 5.56 NATO ammunition. I know that the short (7.25") barrel will reduce the velocity and I thus won't get the normal 5.56's performance, but it should still out-perform typical handgun rounds. (Does anyone have any barrier penetration testing data on 5.56 out of short barrels?)

- The sight radius is double that of my G19 (and more than 50% longer than on my G34), so that should give me some increase in practical accuracy/range.

- When desired, it should produce much better psychological intimidation effects than a handgun.

- It uses standard M16 magazines - which is nice for commonality with my full-sized AR-15.

I'm still looking at other options, but this one has potential.


Just keep doing it because you can, my man!!! Awesome. I'm getting some ideas!

Kobra 8-D

Kobra
01-03-2005, 12:44 AM
Man, this Bushy pistola is schweet!!! You can take her anywhere looks like. In a backpack would be no problemo. Bring it! This thread just ruined my next purchase plan. ;-(

Kobra

georgel
01-03-2005, 03:44 AM
OK, how about this?

http://www.serbu.com/shorty.htm

7677
01-03-2005, 07:38 AM
My first question is why do you feel that you need a carbine on 60th floor and what type of SHTF scenario are you planning for?

Regarding the Sub2000,
I used feel that handgun caliber carbines were worthless weapons as if I was going to carry a carbine sized gun it should be able to defeat armored suspects. However, since shooting a sub2000 last summer has change my mind some. The sub extended my effective range out further then with a pistol and the sub is small enough to fit in a brief case and take with you. The sub also took the same magazines as my G19 which was another plus. The downside to the sub is it is still shoots a handgun bullet at handgun velocities and while it does provide greater penetration then a pistol it is still is not on par with the 5.56mm. If I was going to carry a sub I would use one of the bonded bullets such as Gold Dots.

rgrgak
01-03-2005, 09:47 AM
My first question is why do you feel that you need a carbine on 60th floor and what type of SHTF scenario are you planning for?

Need? I'm only allowed to have what I NEED? :confused:

One potential scenario is an active shooter in the office. Any advantage I can take in a fight is desirable. In many of the active shooter incidents I've seen on the news, the BG had a long gun. So a carbine would just allow me to match his reach. The SUB-2000 will likely be ideal for this scenario.

One reason we want long guns in our vehicles is because normal auto bodies will stop most handgun rounds but will be defeated by most rifle cartridges. Why not have that cover-penetration capability while walking through the parking lot but not yet at our vehicles? Also, I'm reluctant to leave the long gun in the unattended truck so much. Why not keep that capability more under my physical control?

If I can improve capabilities without incurring so many additional risks/problems that they outweigh the benefits, then why not do so?

7677
01-03-2005, 10:58 AM
rgrgak,
You mistook my meaning of need. In order to recommend the carbine that best suits your needs I must understand how the rifle is going to be used and the threat levels involved.

Kobra
01-03-2005, 11:02 AM
Well, now you guys have done it. I'm planning on building an AR pistol. You can buy everything you need for one at www.model1sales.com minus a stripped lower. I am curious about the ballistics of the 5.56 round running through a 7.5" bbl. Is David DiFabio eyeballing this thread by any chance? ;-)

Schweet, Kobra. ;-)

rgrgak
01-03-2005, 11:30 PM
rgrgak,
You mistook my meaning of need. In order to recommend the carbine that best suits your needs I must understand how the rifle is going to be used and the threat levels involved.

That's difficult to define. There is no expected threat, just the standard stuff that could happen to anyone, anywhere.

I expect noone to target my company for robbery, terrorism, or any other such violence. But a disgruntled former employee, an angry boyfriend/girlfriend/etc., or an employee who forgot to take their happy pills one day could present a threat of violence to the rest of us. If that happens, I will do what is necessary to stop that violence. If that person has a gun and a bullet to the brain is the appropriate solution, I'd prefer to send it from a position of cover on the far-side of the office.

I expect noone to target me individually for robbery, assassination, kidnapping, etc. But there are street thugs who are just waiting for the next person to walk through the parking area. I do what I can to be deselected, but some may still try. If they make the attempt and a firefight ensues, I may find myself ducking behind a nearby vehicle for cover. Denying them the use of such cover would be nice.


Those are the basic threats I see (that might warrant a firearm as part of the response).

kyle reese
01-03-2005, 11:39 PM
Thanks Mark for the clarification on the pistol and stock issue. Wasn't planning on it for myself, but didn't know what the law was on such matters.

It would be fun sometime to shoot the long Glocks with the stock LEO and such can use to see how it feels and works.

Too bad, it would have helped with this concept a lot if it was allowed.

Fluffy the Attack Kitty
01-05-2005, 03:41 AM
If you want to have a stock and you don't want to deal with tax stamps your weapon, I believe, needs to have at least a 16" barrel and 26" over all length. The easiest solution seems to be simply to upgrade to a larger backpack and then stick in a folding carbine (KelTec SU-16, AK47, etc.). As an added bonus you could carry more stuff around if you wanted. On the other hand, I do not know what the Texas laws are regarding concealed carry of firearms which do not qualify as "handguns" so you might want to consult with your lawyer before trying that.

Anthony
01-05-2005, 04:24 AM
How about a Short Carbine?
AK pattern?(Krinkov type)
M4gery(11.5 inch or shorter)
I never actually thought about an intermediate between a pistol and carbine being anything other than a subgun.
:confused:
rgrgak,
I've followed this thread, found some suggestions good and interesting.
I particularly liked Gabe's & Mark Swain's suggestions. But like LRS said, there's not really anything in between a good service pistol and a carbine !
When I carried a Hi-Power in the military, the ONLY thing in between it and our 'Carbine' - an H&K 5.56, 10 inch barrelled, retractable stock - ( I forget the designation :o ) was the MP5K ! Good training, and a good service pistol, will better serve you ( as a civilian ) than an unstocked subgun, or rifle calibre pistol IMHO.
And the next step up ( in range & accuracy considerations ) can no better be served than by a short barrelled lever action as Gabe pointed out. ( Unless you can and want to legally own a 10/11 inch brl rifle.)
Pistol to 50 yards. Lever' out to 100 ( with pistol calibres.) Over that you need a proper rifle.
I'm not really sure where there is a hole to fill ? Of course, if one has the money, and wants something 'dandy' then great :D But there's no need to find a tactical reason ! There's a simpler reason than this, and is the most valid in the world.
I JUST WANT ONE, THAT'S ALL ;)
Regards,
Anthony.

Anthony
01-05-2005, 04:39 AM
Have you thought about an AR-7?

http://www.ar-7.com/images/AR-7.JPG

They break down and the pieces are stowed in the buttstock.
Little thread hyjack here, sorry,
Can any of you guys tell me if the new AR7 made by Henry Arms is:
Better, worse, the same etc than the original ?
I will admit to thinking this to be one of the best, most usefull, general purpose .22s EVER !
Have wanted one for along time. Thought they had been stopped, but recently went to the Henry Arms site and found they are being made still! O joy :D
Regards,
Anthony.

georgel
01-05-2005, 04:53 AM
Haven't seen the new ones. I was never impressed with the black wrinkle paint job on the old ones, but I always thought they would be great just to have one in the car for whenever.

MTS
01-05-2005, 06:21 AM
Anthony,

I do not ever recall seeing one of the Henry ones. If I do I will check it out.

Kobra
01-05-2005, 10:18 AM
This is what I'm looking at (7.5" bbl.):

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v327/Theophorus/pistol10prem16.gif

What I'm trying to figure out is where to get a legal stripped lower receiever.

Kobra

rgrgak
01-05-2005, 11:10 AM
If you want to have a stock and you don't want to deal with tax stamps your weapon, I believe, needs to have at least a 16" barrel and 26" over all length. The easiest solution seems to be simply to upgrade to a larger backpack and then stick in a folding carbine (KelTec SU-16, AK47, etc.). As an added bonus you could carry more stuff around if you wanted. On the other hand, I do not know what the Texas laws are regarding concealed carry of firearms which do not qualify as "handguns" so you might want to consult with your lawyer before trying that.

The larger backpacks I've seen all look like something you'd carry hiking or camping. I want to keep the "book bag" look as the average person will consider that normal. I have larger bags in which I can easily carry some of my current long guns, but those bags don't look "normal" in the places I desire to carry it. It's like wearing a trench coat all the time. People will eventually want to know what you're hiding.

With the "book bags", people will see me pulling a book, magazine (reading kind, not reloading kind), computer, etc. out of the bag from time to time and will assume that the bag is limited to carrying such things. If you've seen some larger packs that will hold 26" and longer items while maintaining the desired look, let me know.

The carrying of long guns in Texas is fairly unrestricted. In many rural areas, you can walk down the street with a rifle slung or in hand. In urban areas, carrying so openly will probably get you hassled and charged with distrurbing the peace or something similar. Long guns are commonly carried concealed in vehicles and can be carried in duffle bags, musical instrument cases, and sporting equipment bags. But those bags are not considered "normal" in the places where I spend most of my time.

rgrgak
01-05-2005, 11:13 AM
Good training, and a good service pistol, will better serve you ( as a civilian ) than an unstocked subgun, or rifle calibre pistol IMHO.
And the next step up ( in range & accuracy considerations ) can no better be served than by a short barrelled lever action as Gabe pointed out. ( Unless you can and want to legally own a 10/11 inch brl rifle.)
Pistol to 50 yards. Lever' out to 100 ( with pistol calibres.) Over that you need a proper rifle.

I agree that continued training with the pistol will increase my practical range/accuracy. At the moment, I can consistently hit a body out to 25 yards and a head at about half that distance. I can get a little more accurate if I take more time, but I don't expect to have time in a gun battle. If I can't take the shot and hit within 2 seconds of raising the gun to eye level, then I consider it to be outside my current practical range.

I don't practice as much with my 30-30, but I think I can double the above practical range when shooting offhand and potentially double it again if I get a good supported position. I want to have that capability available as much as possible, but while maintaining the same level of concealment as I get with my tucked-in Glocks. That means it needs to be carried in a 20" pack.

DaveJames
01-05-2005, 01:34 PM
Quality control on the Henrys appears better, haven't had or seen the problem with the sights being off center once the bbl is locked in

Would love to see it in the 22mag :D

Anthony
01-05-2005, 03:03 PM
What I'm trying to figure out is where to get a legal stripped lower receiever.
Kobra
Well I'll say one thing. They sure look like FUN ( literally.)
Could someone please explain to me what a 'stripped lower receiver' is :confused: The lower receiver - ok. It's the 'stripped' part. :o
Regards,
Anthony.

Kobra
01-05-2005, 03:26 PM
Well I'll say one thing. They sure look like FUN ( literally.)
Could someone please explain to me what a 'stripped lower receiver' is :confused: The lower receiver - ok. It's the 'stripped' part. :o
Regards,
Anthony.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v327/Theophorus/Lower-Stripped.jpg

"stripped":The lower receiver minus all parts.

Kobra

Anthony
01-06-2005, 03:14 AM
"stripped":The lower receiver minus all parts.
Kobra
Some things are so simple they actually confuse. :o Obvious now you explain.
Thanks.
Regards,
Anthony.

MTS
01-06-2005, 04:44 AM
Some things are so simple they actually confuse. :o Obvious now you explain.
Thanks.
Regards,
Anthony.
You were probably thinking it involved a lap dance.;)

Anthony
01-06-2005, 07:42 AM
You were probably thinking it involved a lap dance.;)
Good one Mark. :) My kind of humour.
Regards,
Anthony.

Anthony
01-06-2005, 07:45 AM
I don't know why the company doesn't sell their kit, PLUS the 'stripped lower receiver'. I know that's the part with a serial number etc, but it doesn't really make sense. You're going to buy one anyway, so why don't they include one in the kit ?
Regards,
Anthony.

georgel
01-06-2005, 08:04 AM
Stripped lowers are readily available from many sources. You still have to go through the regular purchase process, 4473 Form, etc. though.

Anthony, they don't sell the kit with the lower because the lower is the controlled part, therefore, papering, licensing, permitting etc. are involved. They are just selling parts, no regulation. But if the lower is used to make a "special" weapon then all the more so with licensing and permitting if it even can be at all. Selling parts "kits" without receiver also shifts the burden of staying legal to the buyer (read deniability). It's not their fault that someone decided to put together an illegal weapon. They just sold parts. :rolleyes:
It's not illegal until it's put together, but beware, "together" may include one person just possessing all the parts in the same place.
Welcome to US laws and regulations and the entrepreneurs that work around them.

Anthony
01-06-2005, 03:45 PM
georgel,
This reminds me of:-
Brass knuckle duster 'paperweights'.
Blue prints of AR15 full auto conversion kits. - 'For information only' :p
Books detailing how to make explosives etc. - Dito above.
FWIW I LOVE the USA because of this. You have the right to know/learn etc. You can own a drop in full auto kit. But.............only when you put the kit in your rifle, or punch someone with the brass 'knuckles' or make explosives, are you breaking the law.
The mind boggles, but enjoys :D
Anthony.

Kobra
01-06-2005, 03:50 PM
Ok, now all of that said, is there any true usefulness in the AR-15 Pistol, or is it just a novelty? IOW, can you conjure any scenario in which being armed with such a weapon might prove expedient and more useful than another type of arm? My thought was that this would be great for a teachers desk. A bit more oomph and capacity than an average pistol.

Thanks, Kobra.

Anthony
01-06-2005, 04:01 PM
Kobra,
Well said. The fact is that one has a use, the same as the H&KMP5K has. For people who really don't have to answer in the same way that civilians will need to. :(
People who trained with and carried the H&K 5.56 short barrelled rifles, with stock retracted etc, could well use one of these. Shooting close. More power from the round. More penetration. Advantages etc.
Opps............non-combatant casualty. - "What a shame". "Never mind, shit happens".
But this isn't the civilian reality.
JM2C.
Regards,
Anthony.

georgel
01-06-2005, 04:55 PM
Based on the muzzle blast and fireball on a 10.5" gun I once had, I always thought it would make a good "flash-bang" type device, stunning the occupants of a room into submission. :D

Kobra
01-06-2005, 05:16 PM
Based on the muzzle blast and fireball on a 10.5" gun I once had, I always thought it would make a good "flash-bang" type device, stunning the occupants of a room into submission. :D

ROFL! Just load blanks and let 'er rip!!!

Kobra

Browningguy
01-07-2005, 07:51 PM
You might have a look at the Kel-Tec Sub2000, folds to 16.1", unfolds and deploys in a hurry. Mine takes Glock 9mm mags, In my briefcase I keep it folded with a 10 round mag isnerted and the cocking lever back. Remove, unfold, release cocking knob, rock and roll. I also carry a couple of 31 rd. Glock mags for spares. They make them in 9mm and .40 S&W for various magazines.
Here it's unfolded with a 31 round mag installed, I also added the bottom mount picatinney rail, Samco flashlight holder (this pic shows a cheapo flashlight installed), the butt extension and sling. You can actually fold it and carry under a medium length jacket if need be.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/jcm9371/Rifles/keltec2small.jpg

rgrgak
01-08-2005, 10:52 AM
You might have a look at the Kel-Tec Sub2000, folds to 16.1", unfolds and deploys in a hurry. Mine takes Glock 9mm mags, In my briefcase I keep it folded with a 10 round mag isnerted and the cocking lever back. Remove, unfold, release cocking knob, rock and roll. I also carry a couple of 31 rd. Glock mags for spares.

I'm seriously considering one of those as an option. I've got some questions for you since you already have one:

- You can deploy it "in a hurry". How fast? If you've got your briefcase closed in front of you, how long does it take to have a working rifle in hand?

- How reliable is it?

- I see in the manual from Kel-Tec's website that a key is to be used to unlock it before unfolding. Is that required to unfold it or is that just an optional security measure? Do you use it?

- You said that yours uses Glock 9mm mags. Is yours the version for the G19 or G17 mags? Why do you use a 10-round mag initially rather than a 15 or 17-round mag? Have you run into problems with the latter?

- Have you noticed any issues using the longer (31-round) mags with this rifle?

- Is there anything else that you have noticed that would be of value to someone considering one of these?

Thanks.

rgrgak
01-08-2005, 10:58 AM
Based on the muzzle blast and fireball on a 10.5" gun I once had, I always thought it would make a good "flash-bang" type device, stunning the occupants of a room into submission. :D

To be honest, 5.56 out of the 7.25" barrel didn't really seem any more "flash-bang" obnoxious than my 4" .357 - maybe less.

Browningguy
01-08-2005, 11:50 AM
- You can deploy it "in a hurry". How fast? If you've got your briefcase closed in front of you, how long does it take to have a working rifle in hand?

Well I haven't practiced but I would say 5-8 seconds average time to remove and open, you do need to practice pulling the unlocking lever down. Also one company makes a kydex holster for carrying under a coat but I haven't tried one of those. Once you have it in had it's literally 1-1.5 seconds to be firing (and I'm old and slow now), I hold the folded barrel on top in my left hand, release the latch with my right and the weight will get the barrel unfolding. When the barrel is unfolded my right hand moves from the butt and I flick the charging handle free as my hand moves to the trigger. You're now loaded and ready to go. Takes way longer to read it than to do it.

- How reliable is it?
I had a couple of FTE's during the first two magazines but none since (about 400-500 rounds the last two weekends).

- I see in the manual from Kel-Tec's website that a key is to be used to unlock it before unfolding. Is that required to unfold it or is that just an optional security measure? Do you use it?

The lock is optional and I don't use it, I think I kept the key in the box but I don't even know. All you have to do to unfold is pull down on the unlocking tab and swing the barrel assembly out.

- You said that yours uses Glock 9mm mags. Is yours the version for the G19 or G17 mags? Why do you use a 10-round mag initially rather than a 15 or 17-round mag? Have you run into problems with the latter?

Mine is the Glock 17 mag well, I use a 10 round mag because that's what it ships with. When I ordered new mags CDNN had the 31 round mags on sale for 24.99 during one of their weekend specials so I didn't bother with the 15 or 17 round mags.

- Have you noticed any issues using the longer (31-round) mags with this rifle?

No problems at all with the 31 round mags but since they extend well past the grip it's easier for me to store in the briefcase with a flush fit mag.

- Is there anything else that you have noticed that would be of value to someone considering one of these?

Well, the sights look like crap, however they work pretty well. Mine had to be adjusted about 2" right at 50 yards when I first shot it, it was easy to do however so no real complaints. I've got a target in my work shop from my first day with it, 10 rounds in about 4.5" at 50 yards with cheap Winchester bulk 9mm. There is no way to easily add optics, the Kel-Tec method looks a little hokey to me with the swinging mount. To be honest I don't think this is a good candidate if you feel you need optics. The optional picatinney rail is easy to install, I added a 1st Samco flashlight holder to mine, some people add lasers. While I shot it at 100 yards and kept every shot on the paper, for me it's really best inside 75 yards.

The triggers are very stiff when you first get them, mine was probably in the 10-12 pound range. I found that after the first couple of hundred rounds and a good cleaning it seemed to drop to probably 6-8 pounds, ok for a defensive weapon but something around 4 pounds would sure be nice. I haven't found anyone that can work them over yet but I'm sure someone will get around to it.

Definately get the optional butt extension. I was having a hard time getting on the sights quickly with the standard stock. With the extension it probably cut my time in half, just makes it much easier to get your head down. Only costs about $10-15.

Buy it only if you can use it as a basic close range weapon. Some of the guys on the kel-tec boards have added so much stuff to theirs they probably added 50% to the weight. With the basics, butt extension and lower rail, it's a fine light weight, close range carbine. Just don't try to make it into an AR15.

Catshooter
01-08-2005, 09:10 PM
Just to give you my .02, I wanted the same thing as you, an intermediate weapon. I picked up a Kel-Tec sub-9 that takes Glock mags.

On the internet boards, people are very fast to put the KTs down, and don't seem to like pistol caliber carbines.

I like mine very much. I consider it a long range handgun, sorta like an 8 inch .357 or .44, but with much better capacity.

Mine has never failed me. I carry mine with JHPs and Hirtenberger.

No, it doesn't have the power of an AK, let alone my 7.62x54R guns or a .308, but it can go places that I can't take anything else but a pistol, and it'll outshoot any defensive pistol or revolver.

The KT does exaclty what you think it'll do, despite the naysayers, and I love mine.

Just for fun and 'cause I can I'm thinkin' about cuttin' the barrel back, putting on an AR front sight and welding on a Krinkov style flash suppressor.


Cat

Browningguy
01-08-2005, 09:25 PM
Have you looked at the sight from Blue Force, kooks very interesting.
http://www.blueforcegear.com/product.cfm?type=cat&cat_id=3&prod_id=48

JOE MACK
01-08-2005, 09:45 PM
Check out "A Clear and Present Danger" where Willem DeFoe uses an AR pistol variant.

As to the pistol round carbine. I'm thinking a barrel and magazine tube of just over 16 inches. Cosby guns does a take-down conversion. They could probably make a detachable stock like a couple Winchesters have that uses a round thumb screw. It wouldn't be fast to deploy, but once together, ohhh mamma! A scout scope mount could be used with a red dot or something on it, too. When apart, the scope would stay with the barrel assembly. A pistol round could be used for more capacity than the rifle rounds. I'm partial to the .41Magnum and would use a 210gr JHP that would feed reliably. Some factory ammo would probably get 15-1600fps with mild recoil.
It could all go in an equipment bag.

Just a fevered vision... :D

kyle reese
01-08-2005, 10:51 PM
Very interesting discussion.

After reading, I too like the sub2000 in 9, and I think it should definitely include that blueforce gear part with a tritium XS standard dot or white stripe front post.

I think the Su16 would be a nice idea too for me that I had never considered.

I think the keltecs are pretty much it if you must have a stock that can be deployed and used in reaction to sudden crisis.

Kobra, go with the shortest AR pistol if you get one, put on a big flash suppressor. Get a total flattop and use an EoTech and nothing less. Use a vertical foregrip. Figure out the shooting sling. Still going to be fiercesome loud, but IIRC the 7.5 in barrel and 5.56 got around 2300 fps or so, maybe it was 2100.

Stopped at my FFL dealers house today...what a great thing to do in America. He has a new toy that fits in here sort of.

He got an AK pistol in 7.62x39. 7.5 in barrel or so. The rear of the receiver had a plug welded in, good overall finish, no top handguard, bakelite furniture, standard rear sight, front sight tower moved back on barrel. He would need a sling and an Ultimak (don't even know if it would fit this exotic though), and a red dot or such.

I bet the blast and flash of that thing is even worse than the AR. I had a Krebs Custom AK103K with a 14in barrel for a long time. Chrono'ed the standard load, got an av. of 2120fps. Way below the 2350 or so in the 16in barrel. Not a whole lot more than a .30carbine in a way.So an even shorter barrel like this pistol barrel would give very marginal ballistics and in a lot of ways the big handgun is better, esp all the way around in control and useability.

What about this if we must have a pistol and no stock? Desert Eagle w/ one of the long hunting barrels, 10inches are they? They have scope mounting points cut into the rib on barrel. Use a long eye relief scope or my choice would be one of the Tasco optima LED red dots, they a sort of vertical window like the EOtech but are much much smaller. Cartridge? I think .357 would be best here. We all know the ballistics super boost the .357 and .44 get out of 16 in barrrels...like light carbines. The 10inch barrel or so on the desert eagle would still be quite high I imagine.

I think the .357 has the advantage of a little higher capacity and better controllability, and is perfect for inside buildings and urban areas. I think the .44 has too much penetration, but some say the larger caliber eagle is easier to shoot than a .357 version. Different recoil impulse they say. Don't know myself.

It would be a blaster.

My dealer friend told me that when the AW ban sunset that it had a law in it that made a maximum weight for a pistol, well now that it is dead his AK pistol could be made.

I know the desert eagle is big and heavy, but boy it would be something if you had time to take your shots and couldn't used a stocked weapon.

What about one of the 6 or 8inch 10mm auto hunting model CZ clones made by European American Armory?

SIGLOCKAUR
01-09-2005, 10:37 PM
I have a Kel-tec S2K that takes the G-17mags. It folds and carries easily in my gym bag. With one mag in the gun and two back-ups you have alot of firepower at your disposal. I carry one mag of fmj in case I need the extra penetration. It is a very accurate gun. Has been 100% reliable with good ammo. Is short enough to make it easy to move aound in tight areas. And it has greatly improved hit potential over any handgun. At reasonable distances head shots are relatively easy compared to a handgun. I also put a laser sight on mine. it does not interfer with folding the gun and out to twenty yards makes fast, accurate hits very easy. No it is not an AR-15 with a short barrel. I have a Bushmaster shorty with a 14.5 inch barrel. Although I love the gun and it's about perfect for CQB the muzzle blast and accompanying flash that follow with the short barrel are real concerns in confined spaces. If you are in an entry team with goggles and a helmet not a problem. But in a house or a building in darkness you might find yourself blind and deaf after the first shot. Not so with the Kel Tec. Just food for thought.

Steve Camp
01-16-2005, 07:01 AM
Hey RGRGAK... your search is over! Have a look at:

The Alaskan CoPilot and The Alaskan Guide (http://www.wildwestguns.com/CoPilot_And_Guide_Rifles/body_copilot_and_guide_rifles.html)

If you're willing to spend that kind of money... maybe they'd consider doing a Marlin 336 in 30-30 for ya, or in 44mag.

Any of these breakdown lever guns would give you a little more oompth than the Kel-tec Sub2000, and in .30-30 Win, .45-70 Govt, or .50 Alaskan, a helluva lot more oompth than any piddly .223.

And who knows... maybe any decent Texas LEO or Texas Ranger won't bat an eye at a lever gun! :p

Anthony
01-16-2005, 08:37 AM
I've long thought those guns fantastic Steve. As a lever action fan, that was obvious.
Regards,
Anthony.

DaveJames
01-16-2005, 09:27 PM
And he is even making and building his own guns now,that look like the marlin but will be offered in 500 S&W for those who need one :D :eek:

rgrgak
01-16-2005, 11:55 PM
Hey RGRGAK... your search is over! Have a look at:

The Alaskan CoPilot and The Alaskan Guide (http://www.wildwestguns.com/CoPilot_And_Guide_Rifles/body_copilot_and_guide_rifles.html)

If you're willing to spend that kind of money... maybe they'd consider doing a Marlin 336 in 30-30 for ya, or in 44mag.

Any of these breakdown lever guns would give you a little more oompth than the Kel-tec Sub2000, and in .30-30 Win, .45-70 Govt, or .50 Alaskan, a helluva lot more oompth than any piddly .223.

And who knows... maybe any decent Texas LEO or Texas Ranger won't bat an eye at a lever gun! :p

Very nice! But....

- I'm curious about assembly time. How long does it take to slap the pieces together? How long does it then take to load a few rounds into the tube? I want to be able to go from closed pack in front of me to hot rifle in hand within 15 seconds.

- How heavy is it? (Will I need to get a new, reinforced pack?)

- $2,000 is a bit more than I was planning to spend at this time. I considered the Carbon-15 to be a Christmas present to myself. I can't buy that much every month. I can squeeze a $300 KelTec into budget now, but $2,000? Ouch!

kyle reese
01-17-2005, 07:24 PM
Check out my thread on the new SU-16 "C" version on the 'Rifles in Combat' forum here at WT.

At least for me, this is an intermediate weapon and more. Bingo.

Wallew
01-25-2005, 12:02 PM
Anthony,


But like LRS said, there's not really anything in between a good service pistol and a carbine !

I disagree. But, the weapon I'm talking about is an AOW so all NFA rules apply.

You take an over/under shotgun of the trap shooting variety. Cut the barrels down to about five or six inches, depending on the forend on the weapon. Cut of the majority of the stock so that it becomes a pistol grip. And then either remove or modify the connection that allows you to open the weapon "all the way over" so that what you end up with is a six or seven inch package that will fit in a smallish metal lunchbox like those carried by construction workers.

At close range (ten feet or less) this puppy will cut a man in half. If you pull both triggers you better be hanging on, because recoil IS a mother. But it can stop a moving vehicle if you use slugs. If you use OO buck, god help the person on the recieving end, because the Pearly Gates will definately be his next stop. Reloads are fast, because if you break open the shotgun all the way, both shells pop out. I prefer to remove the extractors so that you have to pull the shells out manually. You could do the same with a single shot shotgun. AOW costs $200 and the signature of your local Sheriff.

Finally, Rocky Mountain Arms made an AR-15 pistol called "The Patriot". They sold it in full auto and semi until 1992's ban stopped production of the semiauto. I owned one of the prototypes (had a sight AND milled rail for optics). I could and have shot that puppy all day long.

Does anyone remember "Escape from LA" with Kurt Russell? There is a scene where he is confronted by two Bad Guys. His response? He says, "We'll play by Bangkok rules. I'll throw this can in the air and when it lands, we all fire" in that gravelly voice he used for the character Snake Pliskin. Of course, as soon as he throws the can in the air, he kills both of them.

The weapon he used? TWO RMA full auto Patriots. The owner of RMA has connections in the movie industry and has provided many a special full auto weapon over the years. He even has several movie posters in his office signed by different cast members.

IF ANYONE knows where I can get a break down lever action in .38/.357, PLEASE EMAIL ME. I want one to finish a piece of luggage I'm designing. What I'm designing is a piece of luggage that is canvas on the outside, leather on the inside. The inside is basically a roll up that holds one Model 12 break down, one Model 92 breakdown (that's the one I'm still looking for), two 2" snubbies and two boxes of .357 and two boxes of 12 ga.

MTS
01-25-2005, 12:49 PM
But it can stop a moving vehicle if you use slugs.
I think you are a little optimistic on the ability of slugs to disable a moving vehicle.

Glocku2death
01-25-2005, 01:03 PM
Anybody think this is a good option? Serbu Super Shorty (http://www.serbu.com/shorty.htm) Ive been thinking about getting one of these for sometime.

jklinstein
01-25-2005, 01:50 PM
Anthony,
You take an over/under shotgun of the trap shooting variety. Cut the barrels down to about five or six inches, depending on the forend on the weapon. ...
...
But it can stop a moving vehicle if you use slugs.


Wallew,

Any idea of the muzzle velocity of slugs out of a 6" barrel?

Jacob

Diablo
01-25-2005, 03:18 PM
Sounds like this is a call for the FN "fiveseven" pistol. It's a .223 and has a 20 round mag. Concealability is a sinch. Hell If I could I carry it but I live in Kalifornia.

Browningguy
01-25-2005, 06:45 PM
Well, it's a .223 caliber, but not the same as a .223 Remington. I've looked at getting one but in my mind the jury's still out on the effectiveness of the round, except when shooting through ballistic armor. They also cost more than twice as much as the Keltec around here, I think they are usually around $750-800. But the idea of a really fast bullet, little recoil and 20 round mags does have a certain appeal.

MTS
01-25-2005, 07:33 PM
If you do a search on here about the 5.7 ammo you will find that so far it is not living up to the hype.

Diablo
01-26-2005, 10:23 AM
I'm not sure if this is true or not but the gent (A Floridian gun shop owner, who wore the weapon for self defense in the store) I spoke to said that he tested the round by shooting a bullet proof vest. He mentioned that most of his rounds penetrated.Needless to say the vest could have been old.

Nobody
01-26-2005, 10:43 AM
I'm surprised that no one has recommended the Beretta CX4 Storm. I bought one for my mother and she got it . . . after I got done "testing" it. It was fun, has both 15- and 20-round mags. 9mm mags are available from Beretta. It has very low recoil. In the Storm, 147 gr. hollow point rounds are supersonic. Finally, Beretta 92 and 96 mags can be used in the storm. It is available in 9mm, .40, and eventually .45.

MTS
01-26-2005, 11:39 AM
I'm not sure if this is true or not but the gent (A Floridian gun shop owner, who wore the weapon for self defense in the store) I spoke to said that he tested the round by shooting a bullet proof vest. He mentioned that most of his rounds penetrated.Needless to say the vest could have been old.
Other then the armor defeating capabilities the round itself is similar to a .22 Winchester Magnum. Not my first choice for SD.

jacketch
01-26-2005, 05:03 PM
Other then the armor defeating capabilities the round itself is similar to a .22 Winchester Magnum. Not my first choice for SD.Not all short barreled folding stock rifles are .223 or 9mm. Check out these compact rifles here (http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=130502)

Browningguy
01-26-2005, 08:12 PM
I think the original question was about readily concealable. I've played with a Beretta Storm and it is a fine little carbine. It is better built than my Kel-Tec, and the one I shot was more accurate, but it's a bunch bigger than the Kel-Tecs 16.1" folded.

Mickey Rourke
01-29-2006, 11:33 AM
Kobra, go with the shortest AR pistol if you get one, put on a big flash suppressor. Get a total flattop and use an EoTech and nothing less. Use a vertical foregrip.

I know this is an old thread, but I was under the impression that a vertical grip on an AR pistol was an NFA AOW.

I found this thread while looking for anything to do with the Mechtech CCU. I really like mine. I put an M4-type stock on mine, but it is still 28", so it wouldn't fit the criteria set forth, either.

Kobra
01-29-2006, 11:57 AM
I know this is an old thread, but I was under the impression that a vertical grip on an AR pistol was an NFA AOW.

I found this thread while looking for anything to do with the Mechtech CCU. I really like mine. I put an M4-type stock on mine, but it is still 28", so it wouldn't fit the criteria set forth, either.

Check out FN's PS90. Shorter than a Krinkov.

Kobra

Omega_556
01-29-2006, 07:30 PM
I don't know how a civy could get one, but this would make a great defensive weapon...


H&K G36C
http://www.hkdefense.us/pages/military-le/mil-leimages/g36crt.jpg
http://www.hkdefense.us/pages/military-le/rifles-carbines/g36c.html

ChuteTheMall
01-09-2007, 01:59 PM
I almost started a new thread, but decided to bump this one instead.

What about the AK pistols that are available now?
How's the blast & flash, is barrel length critical?
How bad are the terminal ballistics? I'm guessing they would be better than an AR pistol, at least within 50 yards.

I was interested in getting the Kel-Tec PLR-16 pistol but you guys convinced me to get a folding stock AK instead, quickly followed by a basic beater wood stock AK. It's all your fault.:confused:

My CHP is a Concealed Handgun Permit, it does not enable me to carry a loaded rifle concealed, not even a pistol-caliber carbine like the Kel-Tec Sub2K. It has to be a firearm originally designed for one handed operation, like the AK pistols. Since I'm stocking up on AK mags & 7.62x39 ammo, and I'm getting to dig the rugged simplicity, I think a concealed AK pistol would really bridge the gap between my Glock and my unloaded and probably inconveniently located AK rifles.

I'm not planning to carry it concealed on my person on any regular basis, but I'd be able to keep in handy in a container such as a laptop bag, briefcase, bookbag, or ice chest.
Or even a smaller chair bag.:D

Given the (non-NFA) legal requirements that it be a handgun, not a SBR, it must have no stock and no vertical foreward handgrip.

What else should I look for in an AK pistol?
Does this deserve a fresh thread?

ChuteTheMall
01-09-2007, 02:06 PM
http://www.militarygunsupply.com/IMAGES/FIREARMS/AKPISTOL.jpg

Here's one pic.
The sight radius looks pretty short, but it's no target pistol.
The forward grip looks too tapered for my taste, I'd like some kind of lip on the bottom to keep my fingers from sliding up to the hot barrel.
And a Krinkov-type flash suppressor would be sweeter.

I'm just guessing, I've never fired an AK pistol yet.

Section1_Operations
01-09-2007, 02:07 PM
I almost started a new thread, but decided to bump this one instead.

What about the AK pistols that are available now?
How's the blast & flash, is barrel length critical?
How bad are the terminal ballistics? I'm guessing they would be better than an AR pistol, at least within 50 yards.

I was interested in getting the Kel-Tec PLR-16 pistol but you guys convinced me to get a folding stock AK instead, quickly followed by a basic beater wood stock AK. It's all your fault.:confused:

My CHP is a Concealed Handgun Permit, it does not enable me to carry a loaded rifle concealed, not even a pistol-caliber carbine like the Kel-Tec Sub2K. It has to be a firearm originally designed for one handed operation, like the AK pistols. Since I'm stocking up on AK mags & 7.62x39 ammo, and I'm getting to dig the rugged simplicity, I think a concealed AK pistol would really bridge the gap between my Glock and my unloaded and probably inconveniently located AK rifles.

I'm not planning to carry it concealed on my person on any regular basis, but I'd be able to keep in handy in a container such as a laptop bag, briefcase, bookbag, or ice chest.
Or even a smaller chair bag.:D

Given the (non-NFA) legal requirements that it be a handgun, not a SBR, it must have no stock and no vertical foreward handgrip.

What else should I look for in an AK pistol?
Does this deserve a fresh thread?

If you found this I'm surprised you missed the thread on the AR/AK pistol concepts.

It's a couple of pages as well and answers your questions.

ChuteTheMall
01-09-2007, 02:42 PM
If you found this I'm surprised you missed the thread on the AR/AK pistol concepts.

It's a couple of pages as well and answers your questions.

Got a link to it? Or any other help in finding it?

If it's a recent sticky, I'll feel incompetent. I tried searching, this was the closest thread I found.

ChuteTheMall
01-09-2007, 02:44 PM
Meanwhile, here's one with a longer sight radius and a flash hider:

http://img465.imageshack.us/img465/8660/krink6fc7.jpg

Section1_Operations
01-09-2007, 04:58 PM
Got a link to it? Or any other help in finding it?

If it's a recent sticky, I'll feel incompetent. I tried searching, this was the closest thread I found.

If you're posting pictures I'm having a hard time believing that.;)

Searched: "Concept"

Found Page 2

Thread Link: "Concept Gun - AR Pistol... Rifle" by Gabe Suarez (http://www.warriortalk.com/showthread.php?t=12877&highlight=Concept)

It's marked as a five ***** thread...

ChuteTheMall
01-09-2007, 05:40 PM
Thanks!
I was looking for AK pistols or even Krinkovs or AKSU's, but concept was the key word to find an AR thread under Rifles in Combat. There's a learning curve here. :D

CR Williams
01-09-2007, 06:39 PM
Got a Kel-Tec SUB2000 in 9mm. Rigged up a briefcase that will carry it folded and a pistol plus magazines. Kel-Tec makes a .223 pistol and a folding .223 rifle. (This may have been covered already but I'm feeling lazier than usual and don't want to try the whole thread tonight.:o) KT makes the SUB2000 in .40 cal as well. I don't think I want to try any of the heavy-caliber pistol packages, so I normally don't think about them much.

I can only imagine the look on an officer's face when they ask what you shot the BG with and you point them to that one.:eek::D

Mickey Rourke
01-09-2007, 07:11 PM
Talk about resurrecting a dead thread:D

Since this was originally posted, Mechtech has started making a 'factory' telescoping stock:
www.mechtechsys.com (http://www.mechtechsys.com)
I don't know the retracted length.

InTheBlack
01-16-2007, 04:21 PM
How long does it take to attach the Glock frame to the MechTech carbine conversion unit?

I wonder what velocity it obtains with 357Sig. ammunition.

For situations where its not practical to tote a rifle carbine, this might have some use. Or to leave locked up in a location where you can't leave a firearm but would have a sidearm with you.

BTW Midway has the 29/30 round Glock magazines on sale this month.

Scherer makes the huge .40SW mag. I have some of their normal capacity mags and they function, but the lack of metal lips might make them wear out faster. But for this purpose it would not matter, as long as they function.

Mickey Rourke
01-16-2007, 04:34 PM
How long does it take to attach the Glock frame to the MechTech carbine conversion unit?
A few seconds. The frame will slide into the CCU and latch via the same lock that holds on the slide. I own a 1911 CCU, not a the Glock unit, so I don't know if the bolt must be locked open or not before the frame is attached.

The 1911 unit slides on and the slide lock must be inserted to lock it on.

InTheBlack
01-16-2007, 06:14 PM
If only someone made an under-folding stock for a lever action rifle...