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Kobra
12-24-2004, 10:51 AM
Laying in bed the other night, I began running a scenario through my head, and got to a point in the scenario where I wasn't sure what would happen. Here is the scenario:

I'm dropping my wife off at a professional building where she will do some administrative type work for a client. Because she does this work after hours, the parking lot is empty. As I pull in, I see a dude in a hoodie standing near the back door, and off to the drivers side of the car--he looks fidgety. I place my hand on my .45 which I carry in the center console when driving, and prepare for the worse. As he gets closer, he lifts up the hoodie and goes for a firearm stuffed in the front of his pants.

NOW, this is where I was stopped in my scenario because in my scenario my windows are up. How is the drivers side window going to react to my Golden Sabres zinging through it? Will it simply shatter giving me a clear view? Will it spider web and somewhat blind me?

Kobra

Sam Spade
12-24-2004, 11:02 AM
Assuming no film on your window (like post-factory tinting) the side glass will completely shatter and fall at the first shot. Most will go straight down, in those 1/4" cubes. Some will be carried in the direction of the shot, whether it's incoming or outgoing.

If you have window film, you'll get a quarter to half-dollar sized hole, with the remainder of the window being spiderwebbed and impeding your view.

Blast is going to be, ummm, noticable.

Consider also the use of the accelerator to get out of the situation.

MTS
12-24-2004, 01:39 PM
I agree with Sam Spade, if your vehicle is in gear and Plan A should be to accelerate away from him if you have a clear lane of travel.

Plan B would be to accelerate towards him.

Plan C would be shooting. Do you wear glasses? If not you might get some fragments blowing back into your eyes.

Kobra
12-24-2004, 01:46 PM
I agree with Sam Spade, if your vehicle is in gear and Plan A should be to accelerate away from him if you have a clear lane of travel.

Plan B would be to accelerate towards him.

Plan C would be shooting. Do you wear glasses? If not you might get some fragments blowing back into your eyes.

As to Plan A: Yes, I always keep the car in gear until I'm prepared to exit the vehicle.

As to Plan B: In the scenario that wouldn't be feasible since the van would be facing the building.

As to Plan C: I probably wasn't clear enough, but in the scenario the subject draws almost immediately upon my pulling up--carjack style--and would only have a 5 to 10 yard shot to take, so the van wouldn't be able to outrun his shots.

In the scenario the only viable option is to shoot. I do think a shoot while accelerating would be a good idea. I do have a location where I could practice this type of thing.

Thanks guys, Kobra

Kobra
12-24-2004, 01:52 PM
OH! I forgot to mention, this scenario is on my mind because about two weeks ago my wife was arriving at this very destination when a hooded figure approached her window, which she cracked a bit, and asked for a ride. When she said no he said, "Really?" and then stood about four feet from the window just staring. She said that she thought he was on drugs. Instead of leaving the area immediately she called me with her cell at which time I told her to drive away. She was armed, but of course the best alternative to the armed confrontation was to leave--and who knows whether he was armed and/or dangerous or not. Needless to say, the scenario has been on my mind.

On a high note, she did say that the gun helped her not feel so helpless--as women often do. I was glad to hear that.

Thanks again, fellas.

yoni
12-24-2004, 02:26 PM
Having been in an incident where we were inside of a vehicle with shots going out and cement blocks and rocks coming in, I learned one thing.

Wear glasses :cool: . Shooting glasses 24/7 when driving is my rule.

When they took the glass out of my eyes at Hadasah hospital it was not fun.

Yoni

MTS
12-24-2004, 02:47 PM
As to Plan B: In the scenario that wouldn't be feasible since the van would be facing the building.

As to Plan C: I probably wasn't clear enough, but in the scenario the subject draws almost immediately upon my pulling up--carjack style--and would only have a 5 to 10 yard shot to take, so the van wouldn't be able to outrun his shots.

In the scenario the only viable option is to shoot. I do think a shoot while accelerating would be a good idea. I do have a location where I could practice this type of thing.
You did not say where you were in the lot when the "hoodie" approached you.

If you have never shot from a moving vehicle and you have a location to do so I suggest that you try shooting first while someone else drives. It will be an eye opener.

If you get into that situation for real I suggest you either shoot or drive.

battleground
12-24-2004, 02:52 PM
If you spot someone who makes you nervous, the best plan is to leave instead of pulling into the parking space. Then call building security, or the police.

DragonRider
12-26-2004, 08:21 AM
What about the type of glass that is used in doors and is strong enough to be pushed open?? Granted there are different types of it I'm sure, but what is to be expected? I work in a glass heavy environment.

John

Sam Spade
12-26-2004, 02:55 PM
For a general guide, you can look at how the glass behaves when struck by anything else.

Auto side windows are designed to shatter into 1/4" or so cubes on impact, and that's what I was describing above. Film may keep those small cubes from falling, but the breakage is still there--the spiderwebbing.

Most house glass is tempered in such a way that you get huge shards upon breakage. Most commercial glass behaves the same way; it's still tempered, just thicker. If shot, we see a baseball sized hole with a few large cracks radiating outward. The glass may or may not fall, depending on the thickness and the attachment to the frame, but visibility isn't really degraded.

"Safety" glass, the kind with the wire mesh embedded, is just the same, except that the wires hold shards together. The decorative 6" glass blocks often seen on bathrooms seem to explode--shatter violently--when shot. Neighboring blocks are unaffected, but you couldn't see through them in the first place.

I haven't shot bullet resistant glass.

tb1911
12-26-2004, 09:20 PM
I long ago learned that when in a car, and expecting to have to shoot, one should roll down the windows. This for two reasons: one was to avoid the problem of having the potential of having one shot shattering the window such that it would remain in place but would be impossible to see through. The second reason was that the rolled down window adds a little more protection in the door when you use it for cover. That said, if someone comes up to my car, I am inclined to just crack the window open, if at all, because I feel more protected having the glass between me and him, so I am not sure what is right.

Is the open the windows all the way idea still taught? Does it still make sense?

Anthony
12-27-2004, 05:43 AM
Is the open the windows all the way idea still taught? Does it still make sense?
Yes & yes. At least whilst rolling anyway, - and that's in hot countries. Don't know if one could roll with windows down up there in the US during your winter. :(
Regards,
Anthony.

gary thornbury
12-27-2004, 06:51 PM
Wouldnt rolling down the window be "pre-medatated" before shooting?
I was in situation like this and most of the responses are in your favor here, unlike mine.

sepolvora
12-28-2004, 02:24 PM
...in the recent "Bin Laden lookalike" case happened here, the driver of the car simply shot his .25 twice thru the front glass and both rounds impacted the stupid on-a-mask, one in the head and one in the paunch.
So, if a .25 went thru, anything else will go.
But as Mark wisely advise, better leave the place than having to explain why my bullets are in that moron's body.

Peace for everyone.

Timber Wolf
12-30-2004, 01:22 PM
....

I do think a shoot while accelerating would be a good idea. I do have a location where I could practice this type of thing.

Thanks guys, Kobra

Hey Kobra - not sure where you are at, but http://www.insightstraining.com does do a street and vehicles tactics class, and they do teach on west and east coast.

Ma Deuce
12-31-2004, 01:48 AM
Bullet resistant glass: golf ball to softball size bullís eye with degradation of the resistance in that area. Visibility is otherwise unimpeded.

InTheBlack
01-01-2005, 05:22 PM
I'm very concerned about your wife's poor response.

Apparently having a gun nearby made her decide to STAY THERE and make a phone call in order to ask for advice ???

Either point the gun at the threat or drive away from the threat.

She seems to have been mentally "stuck;" knowing there was a threat but unable to decide the magnitude. Not threatening enough to point the weapon or get away, but threatening enough to disrupt her from continuing with her mentally pre-programmed task (parking and going to work).

She needs to practice "changing gears" and I think someone who has knowledge of this sort of psychological block should start a specific thread on it.

Kobra
01-02-2005, 01:00 AM
I'm very concerned about your wife's poor response.

Apparently having a gun nearby made her decide to STAY THERE and make a phone call in order to ask for advice ???

Either point the gun at the threat or drive away from the threat.

She seems to have been mentally "stuck;" knowing there was a threat but unable to decide the magnitude. Not threatening enough to point the weapon or get away, but threatening enough to disrupt her from continuing with her mentally pre-programmed task (parking and going to work).

She needs to practice "changing gears" and I think someone who has knowledge of this sort of psychological block should start a specific thread on it.

Yes, you are correct about her being "mentally stuck," and we have talked this through. The gun wasn't what made her decide to stay, but in retrospect she perceived an absence of helplessness she had grown used to in the past. This I thought was good--she tasted blood so to speak. She hadn't shot a gun until last year, and hadn't ever considered carrying one. She realizes now just how foolish she had been her whole life.

Unfortunately, some of us learn the hard way, but fortunately, God is gracious and grants a learning experience instead of a meeting.

Kobra

Kobra
01-02-2005, 01:03 AM
Also, I agree about the psychological aspect of your post. Would be good to start seeing more talk of thought patterns more than perception. By the time we perceive it is too late. We need to change the way we perceive. IOW, I'm starting to learn from what I'm experiencing in life that being a Warrior starts long before awareness, perception, or conciousness. The development of thought patterns and instinct seem critical to this amateur.

Kobra

The Searcher
01-02-2005, 01:28 AM
You should teach your wife to scout supposedly deserted parking lots etc before parking. A slow drive through the area looking to see what's there that shouldn't be. Likewise, she should scope out the area before unlocking the door to leave the office when she's done.

You're playing catch up if he makes it up to your window before you notice him.

Kobra
01-02-2005, 01:35 AM
You should teach your wife to scout supposedly deserted parking lots etc before parking. A slow drive through the area looking to see what's there that shouldn't be. Likewise, she should scope out the area before unlocking the door to leave the office when she's done.

You're playing catch up if he makes it up to your window before you notice him.

That's good advice, Searcher. I will impress that upon her by having her read this thread. Yet, though the second half of your advice is sound, it won't work at this facility. There is no window for her to peer out to survey the parking area near the car. The way out is a steel door with no window. You don't know what you are getting until you get there. There is another way out with a glass door, but this opens up between two buildings with alot of nooks and crannies. Just not a good scene.

Thanks again, Kobra

InTheBlack
01-03-2005, 02:24 PM
You need to tell the employer about the incident and have him install a camera. A B&W, 3 camera wired setup is not more than $200 plus drilling some holes in the wall to install it. Wireless might be cheaper since less labor to install.

An ordinary VCR can be turned on by her when she leaves, for post-facto information.

Kobra
01-03-2005, 03:21 PM
You need to tell the employer about the incident and have him install a camera. A B&W, 3 camera wired setup is not more than $200 plus drilling some holes in the wall to install it. Wireless might be cheaper since less labor to install.

An ordinary VCR can be turned on by her when she leaves, for post-facto information.

That's a good idea. A visible camera may also act as a deterrent in some cases. It is a professional building, and thus her employer does not own the building but leases an office inside the complex. She did manage the facility at one time though, and so she may have a one-up in making this happen.

Thanks, Kobra