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Cold War Scout
12-21-2004, 05:32 PM
Anybody out there have any familiarity and/or experience with the SCARS system of Jerry Peterson? What are your thoughts on this fighting system?

Sharp Phil
12-21-2004, 05:39 PM
A Brief Look at SCARS (http://www.themartialist.com/pecom/scars.htm)

michael
12-21-2004, 05:44 PM
CWS,

In a nutshell, it is a system designed by Jerry Peterson, who has a background in San-Soo. It is based around "natural reactions" of your opponent, which of course can never be relied upon. An example would be if you kneed someone in the groin, his natural reaction would be to bend forward, and then SCARS would base their follow-up techniques around these reactions. Of course the danger is that these reactions vary widely from person to person and should never be used to base your SD system around. It has some good points, but IMHO they are outweighed by the bad. Not to mention it is extremely $$ for what you get.

Ninor
12-21-2004, 06:40 PM
About the only thing it will SCAR is your wallet. I had the displeasure of watching his knife defense tape years ago...what utter sullage.

If what I've been told is true he's also being sued for his claims of teaching the SEALS

Cold War Scout
12-22-2004, 02:51 AM
Seems like he is brazenly claiming to have taught Navy SpecOps folks, unless maybe he did:

http://www.scars.com/_scars/scarsTest.asp

http://www.scars.com/_scars/scarshist.asp

michael
12-22-2004, 07:52 AM
He probably did, but that doesn't really mean anything. The SEALS and onther SpecOps groups regularly bring in many different instructors, some good and some bad. We did the same thing on SWAT, and while we had many good instructors, we also had some that were totally worthless.

bae4
12-22-2004, 08:08 AM
Did you guys give your department feedback on instructors? Did the department take the feedback seriously?

RES
12-22-2004, 08:13 AM
I have nothing to contribute at the moment, so I am posting this to increase my post count.

:D

bae4
12-22-2004, 08:16 AM
There is a certain style that BS artists have when it comes to hand to hand training. Something about the word "kinematics" just reeks of BS. :D

You could do a whole humor section on this board on this kind of topic... :D

Gerald Bailey
12-22-2004, 09:32 AM
This system seem very simular to the ESDS system? Does anybody have any idea if they have the same background ?

Have done the ESDS system and it works well. Some small adjustments / additions to the techniques and you're good to go.

Have a Blessed Christmas and New year

Gerald

michael
12-22-2004, 01:38 PM
Did you guys give your department feedback on instructors? Did the department take the feedback seriously?
Not really, but we had total control over who we brought it, so we just didn't invite them back.:D

Coops
12-22-2004, 03:38 PM
This system seem very simular to the ESDS system? Does anybody have any idea if they have the same background ?

Have done the ESDS system and it works well. Some small adjustments / additions to the techniques and you're good to go.

Have a Blessed Christmas and New year

Gerald

Cheers Gerald.

ESDS is what I'm coming over to teach at the WTS. I don't know much about SCARS exept that I've heard it's MA based, but that's fine because there's art in everything we see :D

ESDS is designed to engender SD/combat skills in people in a very short time. We try to keep away from MAs although most of our instructors are from a MA background. I think that is what creates the interest first off. ESDS as I teach it has more to do with the skills taught in PS than in any MA.

I recall Matt Temkin saying in Sweden once, that just because you have a gun in your hand doesn't mean you're not fighting.The same rules apply in a fight, whatever the tool you're playing with.

Gerald, I would be happy to have your suggestions as to additions to what we do.If we have a hole in our makeup then we need to shore it up.

Coops

Chicago
12-22-2004, 04:36 PM
I studied SCARS in 1999 and attended a three day,30 hour course at SCARS when it was based in Phoenix in 1999. I have a number of the SCARS videos. The bottom line is that I do not recommend the system to people now. Combatives, as taught by Kelly McCann and Carl Cestari, are much simpler to learn and much more effective, IMO. And also much easier on the pocketbook.

tmanifold
12-30-2004, 10:27 AM
SCARS has its good points and its bad points. Its best points IMO are its use of NLP to develop the proper mindset and the use of the reactions, as long as it is used in the proper context. The key, I believe, is to have your training partner mix up his severity with in the range of motion given. Take for example, the groin blow. When struck in the groin, you will automatically start to bend over and grab your nuts. Its instinct, you can't help it. However, how severe that reaction is could depend on a number of factors. The guy could bend all the way over or he could merely flinch in that direction before he recovers or you could have missed and nothing happens at all.

If you go to either extreme all the time, you can get in the habit of relying on someone to be somewhere he isn't and start attacking with By-rote combinations. By varying the reaction, you learn to hit the person where he is, not where he should be.

The biggest downsides of SCARS are its price (by far the most expensive system out there) and its complexity. I was a gymnast in high school and I don't think I could pull some of those acrobatic techniques off reliably. It starts nice and simple but it quickly starts to become more athletic and acrobatic.


Finally, Jerry Peterson did teach the system that became SCARS to Navy SEALS as part of the offical curriculum. It was part of BUD/S for a few years. It doesn't mean he has the market cornered on effectiveness in anyway but he wasn't lying when he said that, nor was he inflating a guest trail in to some sort of Navy Seal trainer title.

All in all, I think you could get all the benefits of SCARS from being honest about being hit in training (ie. if something would have made you move without the padding, move even though you are wearing padding) and picking up some Tony Robbins books on NLP.

Coops
12-30-2004, 12:50 PM
All in all, I think you could get all the benefits of SCARS from being honest about being hit in training (ie. if something would have made you move without the padding, move even though you are wearing padding) and picking up some Tony Robbins books on NLP.

tmanifold.

I am extremely interested in your last paragraph. Could you enlarge on what you have mentioned?

The only reason is that wolverine draws a paralell between SCARS and what I teach, ESDS. However, I cannot see any complexity in our stuff. Plus, you certainly get hit when I'm training.

tmanifold
12-30-2004, 02:54 PM
I can't speak for what you do but some of the techniques I have seen in SCARS are needlessly complex. I sold my SCARS tapes awhile back but I remember one where he does a sumersualt, grabs the guys leg and uses his leg to knock him over. I all could say was "Why?"

I Wrote and Article for The Martialist (http://www.themartialist.com) on using NLP in combatives. It can be found here:
http://www.members.shaw.ca/tmanifold/using_nlp_in_combatives_training.htm

Also my friend Darren Laur has a great article I have archived here:
http://www.members.shaw.ca/tmanifold/hypnosis.htm
More of his stuff can be found at his new site: http://www.personalprotectionsystems.ca/

The being honest when you hit thing comes in to effect when you are limiting contact or padding up for safety. I will never let someone stick their fingers in my eyes for training purposes but if they pull it for safety, I will act as if they didn't. From what I know of SCARS they tend to pull their shots for safety and rely on their Autokinetics to provide the response. Where I have seen people going wrong is they always react to the extreme. IMO this is just as bad as not reacting at all. If every time I hit some one in the groin, they do exactly the same thing, I may be temepted to use the exact same follow up technique every time.

Does that help?

Edited to correct URL

unstpabl1
12-30-2004, 03:28 PM
If you get a chance look up a book called "Sudden Violence" by Greg Jones.Palidin press.Its a good primer on the street fighting art of San Soo.Peterson is/was a black belt in the system.The San Soo people I know contend that Scars is bout green belt material San Soo.The mentality of san soo is summed up by hit 1st,hit hard,hit often.I trained in san soo for about a year and am curious about the simalarities I see to WWII combatives

San Soo is mostly in California.Scars is pricey.You can train with the top Masters in the art for about $85 a month.

V42
12-31-2004, 07:07 PM
SCARS is a very complex system with very complex combinations that has things like hitting someone one way, which is supposed to get them to react a certain way, and opening them up for hitting them another way, which is supposed to get them to react a certain way, which puts them in a position to get hit in a different way, etc. This getting people to react a certain way to strikes blocks for long follow-up combinations is the heart of the system. They call it autokinetics. These are detailed striking sequences and there are several problems:

1. What happens when you miss a block strike in the sequence and then move on to the next strike or move and when the guy is not in the perscribed position you may be leaving yourself wide open.

2. What happens when the guy does not react as they are supposed to so that they are not in a position for the perscribed follow-up strike? People high on drugs or drunk can sometimes shrug off shots to the groin. Your follow-up strikes may be way off because the person isnít where they are supposed to be or reacted the way they are supposed to be. You may even leave yourself wide open because of this.

3. Under the stress of a REAL violent encounter your motor skills and thinking skills deteriorate drastically. It may well be impossible for the average person to even think of those complex combinations, much less execute them.

There is a difference between taking advantage of incidental responses, like nailing a guy in the head who doubles over after he gets him in the stomach or groin, and building a system that blinly expects it to the point where you are doing the follow-up move whether he reacted or not, possibly leaving yourself open in the process.

I saw a SCARS graduate facing a padded armored assailant simulating a violent attack and he used the same gross motor strikes as everyone else. I saw no scars combinations that he learned from his week long course or the follow-up course. The stuff from SCARS was just too complicated for him to apply under the stress of a simulated attack.

Also, some ot the moves work much better in drills than in real life. Take their windmill block. It works well when someone is throwing nice straight punches in a cadence, and you know the punches are coming in advance so you are standing there ready to windmill block before the punch even gets there, but add broken rhythem and odd angles, hooks and not knowing the punch is coming until it is already in flight and most of the way there, and you will wind up getting nailed.

And Jerry Petersen claims that what he is doing has nothing to do with martial arts, yet it is based on San Sou, a form of Kung Fu. He also clams his system has no techniques so there is nothing to forget, yet look at the pictures in magazines and you will see him doing strikes and throws that are the same that you see in martial arts along with very complex combinations.

Peterson claims the system is strictly offensive and not at all defensive, but much of what you see on tapes is waiting for someo to attack before responding.

He claims to have used it to kill someone in hand to hand combat in Vietnam. Interesting because he did not study San Shou Kung Fu, the system upon which it is based until after he got out og the army. So if he really did kill someone with his bare hands, SCARS had nothing to do with it.

As far as training the SEALS, Petersen may have trained them, but so did a bunch of other people like Paul Vunak and Frank Cucci. The SEALs do not have any standard hand to hand program.

With all due respect to SCARS, it strikes me a a system that the average person would find allmost impossible to make work in self defense.

Face it, the SEALs are not average people and their main weapons are MP5 submachine guns, M4 Carbines, M-14 rifles, and M60 machine guns, not empty hands.

Coops
01-01-2005, 08:52 AM
Thanks for the explanation Tony. I understand now. Role playing is a skill in itself and unfortunately, not everyone gets it right. As for everyones descriptions of SCARS - it would seem to have no similarity to ESDS at all.

Looking at the quote by Stover at the bottom of your posts; that sums up ESDS in a nutshell. It's nothing clever and it's not for everyone, but It does work well.

Coops

tx_outlaw
01-06-2005, 02:31 PM
I bought the scars tapes & book back when it was called "Hostile Control System" and sold through TRS, i wouldnt put too much into it, fun to look at but thats about it, theres alot better stuff out there for alot less, i'm willing to trade them if anybody is interested just shoot me an email
tx_outlaw@myway.com.....

usnken
01-20-2005, 12:01 PM
I sent you a pm; not sure if it went through.

I went to the SCARS camp in 1999 also, around july. Was that the class you were in?

Chicago
01-22-2005, 03:30 PM
Usnken-Just read your message and replied. Thanks.

buds209
03-09-2005, 09:19 PM
Generally, traditional martial arts take a very long time to master. SCARS was designed to take someone with no martial arts experience and in a short time, give them a capability that normally follows years of martial arts training.

Jerry Peterson's SCARS was indeed our martial arts system for a number of years. It does closely align with San Soo and shares the simple, brutal effectiveness of Jimmy Woo's art.
It is a very good military combative system.
Jerry Peterson has bills and a mortgage just like everyone else and has every right to market his system. I just hope for the public's sake that he exercises discretion regarding who he teaches.

To all of you internet ninjas who think you are tough and badmouthed SCARS on this site, I dare you to challenge any SEAL who went through the SCARS course and I guarantee you will get your ass kicked.

Blade Doc
03-10-2005, 01:48 AM
Buds-

That was a sweet answer. You, being a NAVY SEAL, should have something more to contribute other than, "Challenge some SCARS trained NAVY SEAL to fight and get your ass kicked."

If I'm going to fight a NAVY SEAL why would I give them a chance to square off with me and use their superior SCARS skills? Why wouldn't I do what everybody else does on the STREET and cheat.

Here is a SCARS review. It looks pretty honest.


http://home.att.net/~erik.mann/scars2.htm

michael
03-10-2005, 06:57 AM
To all of you internet ninjas who think you are tough and badmouthed SCARS on this site, I dare you to challenge any SEAL who went through the SCARS course and I guarantee you will get your ass kicked.

I predict your stay here will be short........http://www.warriortalk.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

usnken
03-10-2005, 08:20 AM
buds,

I had the opportunity to attend BUD/S (the SEAL training course for those of you who dont know yet) while in the Navy. I didnt graduate, but while there i asked a few instructors about SCARS and their opinion was not all that good. I was in 236 and SCARS was long gone by then, having been replaced by the current system by Duane Dieter, CQD or Close Quarters Defense. Most Team guys I know speak highly of CQD, and not well of SCARS, although it does have its place. I like SCARS and San Soo alot, but it seems that many dont care much for the 'complex' techniques.

The bad news is that Jerry Peterson has made some far-fetched and questionable claims. So people decided that since Peterson is full of hot air, San Soo must be as well. As I stated before, I suggest that people check out the many San Soo websites which exist and educate themselves on the style and not judge it based on one mans claims.


Just my input.

Ken

Masterfinger
03-10-2005, 09:32 AM
bud/s,
"Jerry Peterson's SCARS was indeed our martial arts system for a number of years. It does closely align with San Soo and shares the simple, brutal effectiveness of Jimmy Woo's art."

To share the truly "brutal effectiveness" of San Soo, it needs to be taught beyond the basic rudimentary levels. That's like saying if you want to be brutally effective in San Soo, you'll be there at green belt level, which most everyone in San Soo agrees SCARS is. I agree with you in that SCARS has something to offer, just like all other arts, no better, no worse. Something about it made people buy the tapes.

"Generally, traditional martial arts take a very long time to master. SCARS was designed to take someone with no martial arts experience and in a short time, give them a capability that normally follows years of martial arts training."

Agreed 100%. So instead of going all the way to black, it'll be faster just ending it at green :rolleyes: . No system IMO, replaces years, given the usual 4 to 6 or more years it takes to earn BB/Instructor level in most known systems & arts, in a matter of weeks or months in some cases. And I think most in this forum, regardless of their art/style/system etc. would agree. So sales hype could have fed into the above statement, though subliminally and not your fault.

"Jerry Peterson has bills and a mortgage just like everyone else and has every right to market his system. I just hope for the public's sake that he exercises discretion regarding who he teaches."

Yes he does, and yes he did. Unfortunately when it came to exercising discretion, it was only towards the poor who could not afford the highest priced videos on the market at the time :( . Anyone else who had the money, including foreign or domestic terrorists of any denomination, could buy all they could get.

"To all of you internet ninjas who think you are tough and badmouthed SCARS on this site, I dare you to challenge any SEAL who went through the SCARS course and I guarantee you will get your ass kicked."
:confused: :confused: They're not really bad mouthing SCARS, just the opposite. Some in the senior levels of the MA's don't think too highly of these "formerly secret systems" designed to make a fighter comparable to a black belt in a matter of weeks or through a 3 video set, just like REAL SEALs don't like wannabe's who rang the bell after the 1st week, then buy a Budweiser at the local military surplus shop and pin it on to B/S the non knowing numbnuts. And if that same wannabe, after taking a year of SCARS, walked into any dojo where there was a white belt who was a real REAL SEAL, I guaranfuckintee you, the wannabe would get their ass kicked. Thank you.

Climber4
03-10-2005, 02:48 PM
Re: Scars

Yes, it is a fact that SCARS was taught for several years in the Teams. I was at BUD/S when this was first offered, end of 89/early 90. (~Class 162-165).

As new trainees, you can imagine our interest in learning the H2H 'secrets' of the SEALS. In fact, this was a brand new course for SpecWar, and they were evaluating it for more widespread use. There was some disagreement about the usefulness, but I distinctly remember many in my class who felt somewhat silly being 'trained to act' as if we were in a Hollywood movie, e.g. bend over when punched (complete with load groans). I heard that this was reduced in later versions of the system. Some of us disagreed with the 'reaction-based' approach, but as with any techniques, anything to an extreme can be counterproductive.

What is also true is that SpecWar had multiple students attend the SCARS program in the early 90s and had instructor courses in-house that were several weeks long. Mind-you, there was also instruction from a variety of folks at this same time, including Vunak, Cucci, informal stuff through Piana, Duncan Leong, etc. There are plenty of styles that could claim to be 'taught to the Navy SEALs', and that doesn't really mean all that much.

buds209, interesting question about the SCARS-trained Team guy walking into a bar to fight someone from a different style. That's not really apples-to-apples, for a variety of reasons. I would say that the more useful question would be: 'Would the typical SEAL be a better operator through an equal amount of training in SCARs or a (fill-in the name of system here)?.

I know multiple people who went through the full SCARS course (east coast), and it had very mixed reviews. The comments on the weapons sections were particularly tepid. On the other hand, the general consensus around Dieter's CQD course is very positive, especially around the integration of weapons and H2H. While some will always disagree, I think there is a reason that the CQD is gaining in prominence.

All IMO, YMMV

Blade Doc
03-10-2005, 03:29 PM
This guy has reviewed hundreds of martial arts tapes over the years. I think he is pretty fair. Another one of his views on SCARS

http://home.att.net/~erik.mann/atas.htm

This is the Black Belt Article that SCARS appeared in. The video review refers to it.

http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=46


Another thing.

When has Jerry Peterson ever claimed that SCARS is from Kung Fu San Soo? Peterson always claimed that SCARS was his invention. It is something brand new not related to any martial arts. Has Peterson ever paid homage to San Soo as being the origin of SCARS? Has he changed his advertising?

It was Lew Hicks, a former NAVY SEAL who was selling his own
fighting system, who publicly called SCARS watered down Kung Fu San Soo. Because at that time Peterson was claiming that SCARS was something new not related to any traditional martial arts.

michael
03-10-2005, 03:42 PM
Where are all these new guys posting here with the sudden interest in SCARS coming from? Hmm.............http://www.warriortalk.com/images/smilies/confused.gif

Chicago
03-10-2005, 04:31 PM
It's not that SCARS is bad-it's just over-hyped and too expensive. In my opinion, there are several, better systems out there to learn, including the combatives taught by Carl Cestari and Kelly McCann, neither of whom claim to have invented anything new or unique to the world.

Gabriel Suarez
03-10-2005, 10:41 PM
Gents,

Just back from Spain and in a jet-lagged foul mood. I got several PMs about this thread so I am posting and going to bed.

Re: "To all of you internet ninjas who think you are tough and badmouthed SCARS on this site, I dare you to challenge any SEAL who went through the SCARS course and I guarantee you will get your ass kicked."

Hmm. First off "bud", if you are looking for internet ninjas, best you take a look at those brand x forums that solicit their presence. Here we kill 'em and bury 'em out back. The folks here have BTDT and have the t-shirt and scars (ha. That was funny!) to prove it!

Item 2: Sounds like a big load of merde to me. First of all, SEALS are men like anyone else. They bleed and get tired and need the same things we all need. I've known some team people who were very good at certain skills, but not all are great at everything. I've seen civilian stock brokers outshoot BUDS Instructors...with rifles no less...one who some think is a big name trainer now AAMOF. I've also seen SEAL guys (as well as everyone else) get choked out at H2H classes. Bottom line. Superman exists only in the comic books.

Item 3: Fighting is fighting and killing is killing. People have been doing it for years and untils someone learns to grow an extra arm or leg, its all been discovered. SCARS and Peterson? Don't know 'em. Will a $10,000 five day course teach me everything I need to know to "kick ass like a SEAL"? Don't know, but from my life experience, my bravo-sierra alarm is ringing big time.

Guys from whom you will learn very good (dare I say ass-kicking) stuff, who won't ask you for Congressional clearances and who will teach you material you can use that same night for much much less:

Tom Sotis
Mike Janich
Marc Denny
James keating
Kelly Worden
Felix Valencia

Leave the VN Tiger Stripes at home and just bring workout clothes :cool:

Kobra
03-10-2005, 11:38 PM
There is way too much hype going on out there concerning SEALS, SF guys, etc...I'm not saying that they aren't men of honor deserving of respect, or that they are schmucks, but as Gabe says, "There are no Supermen." Alot of it is mindset, and secondarily training. I don't buy the hype. To do so is to be defeatist.

Kobra

RES
03-11-2005, 12:19 AM
I am ONLY posting this because no one else has yet...

"It's amazing, the number of SEALs you meet on the internet!"

:D :eek: :p :rolleyes:

JonnySD
03-11-2005, 02:20 AM
I used to work with a guy on my squad that was a BUDS instructor before coming onto the local PD. Jerry Peterson did teach SCARS to the SEALS, but it wasn't as big of a deal as he makes it out to be. A lot of his classes were taught during lunch time. After having attended a few sessions, my coworker was more interested in eating his lunch.

My coworker also knew Lew Hicks (SAFTA). Hicks was one of the die hard followers of SCARS until he started SAFTA (watered down SCARS). While Hicks was a SEAL, my coworker said that he has never been on a SEAL mission. Nice guy, but big time con artist.

Cold War Scout
03-11-2005, 04:36 AM
Does this mean we may be seeing James Keating and Kelly Worden some day? :-)

Gabriel Suarez
03-11-2005, 04:37 AM
Oh yeah...but probably where we discussed.

usnken
03-13-2005, 02:34 PM
Blade Doc,

You wrote, "When has Jerry Peterson ever claimed that SCARS is from Kung Fu San Soo? Peterson always claimed that SCARS was his invention. It is something brand new not related to any martial arts. Has Peterson ever paid homage to San Soo as being the origin of SCARS? Has he changed his advertising?"


Peterson has never openly stated that SCARS is based primarily on San Soo, as far as I know. If asked, he simply says that SCARS is the result of 'science' rather than lending credit to his previous training in San Soo and other various martial arts.

Im not sure if your post was questioning whether or not Peterson ever trained in San Soo (because you asked, 'when he has ever paid homage to San Soo?'), but he is in fact a Master of San Soo. PAy a visit to this website (http://www.sansoo.com/qanda.html) and scroll down a ways and you will see this question directed to Bill Hulsey (its his website), as follows:


I have noticed that Jerry Petersons SCARS system is very similar to San Soo in many ways. Is SCARS and San Soo one in the same? LS, Chicago, IL

Bill Hulsey answers:
I promoted Jerry Peterson, founder of the SCARS system, to black belt in San Soo right here in Bellflower, Ca. He is also a personal friend of mine. He went on to recieve his masters degree from Jimmy H. Woo. That is why similarities exist. Whenever Kung Fu San Soo is changed or modified it can no longer be called Kung Fu San Soo.

Hope this helps anyone setting out to learn more.

Ken

Cold War Scout
03-16-2005, 04:01 AM
When I started this thread, I thought I would be surprised if anybody at all responded. My curiosity was based upon my having attended SCARS training myself and my subsequent efforts to pigeonhole it properly into my tool kit.

I attended SCARS I and SCARS II in May of 2003. Quite expensive those two courses were, but at the time I needed a crash course in combatives and felt this would be a good way to go. I also got the bery expensive tapes but at a VERY good price.

Did I think the SCARS training was excellent? Absolutely! Do I think that SCARS is some magical system that will make you a top notch fighter after two weekends? Hell, no! I was most concerned about what I considered the weakness of the SCARS anti-knife training. I felt like it was just too dangerous and that's when I went seeking other knifing training. I did feel that the emphasis on offense and violence of action that SCARS promoted was definitely invaluable. We did some great active 2 on 1, 3 on 1 and 5 on 1 fighting drills that could come in handy some day (with rubber knives and sticks as well). Also he constantly emphasized being able to fight under and through all scenarios. I did however feel that too many of the techniques were technique driven. Jerry might be able to pull them all off, and he clearly has the physical talent in his videos, but I sure the hell can't.

Jerry Peterson never once claimed to be a wizard or to have invented a system himself. He made it clear several times that SCARS was a compilation of a number of techniques from a number of systems that he had come across over the years. He projected great confidence, some cockiness, and some humility.

usnken
03-18-2005, 08:25 PM
cold war,

You wrote, "Jerry Peterson never once claimed to be a wizard or to have invented a system himself. He made it clear several times that SCARS was a compilation of a number of techniques from a number of systems that he had come across over the years. "

In my opinion, Peterson does in fact claim to have invented a system; the last S in SCARS stands for 'system', as you well know. I havent seen where Peterson lends credit to any specific martial arts at all, just generalizations.

"The SCARS Institute of Combat Sciences is about physical and psychological warfare experts using 21st century science and technology to increase human performance to its highest possible level."

I must agree also, I liked Jerry Peterson as a man. He was kind and offered answers to any oncoming questions.

As for now, Im looking further into adrenal stress conditioning (primarily Peyton Quinns RMCAT, but also IMPACT, F.A.S.T., etc.). The logic of it is fantastic so far, although its only recently cropped up on my radar.

Maybe one day someone will take SCARS and combine it with adrenal stress conditioning for a week-long ass-whooping camp.

Good luck in all your training!

InTheBlack
03-18-2005, 09:09 PM
Somebody start a thread explaining what adrenal stress conditioning is supposed to do.

All I know is that after I went thru a period of prolonged stress some years ago, I don't seem to have an adrenaline response anymore. Just burned those glands right out.

V42
03-19-2005, 06:20 PM
As for now, Im looking further into adrenal stress conditioning (primarily Peyton Quinns RMCAT, but also IMPACT, F.A.S.T., etc.). The logic of it is fantastic so far, although its only recently cropped up on my radar.

Maybe one day someone will take SCARS and combine it with adrenal stress conditioning for a week-long ass-whooping camp.

When I was at RMCAT there was a guy there who attended the week long SCARs camp twice. He was also a nlack Belt in Tae Kwon do and worked out regularly. He was unable to make his SCARs training work against the padded assailant.

Adrenal stress training takes a trained padded assailant who simulates a street attack with the same type of threats, verbal abuse, building tension previous to the attack.

It makes it as real as possible and the guy is wearing a heavily padded suit which allows him to take full force blows. Most people find that they have a very hard to impossible time making most of their complicated training work under this stress.

unstpabl1
03-19-2005, 07:43 PM
I don't see how fighting a fully padded up opponent making him able to withstand full blows is a fair assesment of any technique/system.Isn't it a lie as big as a cooperative partner in a way?Is the end result of a younger:) Mike Tyson right way different if Im in the suit or not?Will the guy in the suit feel the bite or be blinded by the eye rake.Don't get me wrong,I think RMCAT program looks great and has much value.
mike

V42
03-19-2005, 08:32 PM
The suit isnt the test of the technique but just to allow the guy to take full power shots and things like knees to the head when doubled over again and again by a whole class of people.

What makes many things not work is the noncooperative nature of his attack--he doesn't do things like throw a punch and leave his arm locked out for you apply techniques that only work on someone who throws one punch at a time and leaves the arm locked out.

What makes a lot of things fail for someone is adrenal stress which the padded attacker brings out by simulating an attack in a realistic manner with all of the threats and such that lead up to an attack which give most people extreme butterflies in the stomach. It mirrors the fact that in real life violent situations many people are not able to do a lot of what they train to do.

I went to RMCAT twice and probably saw 20 people go through 10 scenarios. At least half of the people were blackbelts and/or instructors, incliding those in Tae Kwon do, Kempo, etc. Under real life stress you just did not see the Tae Kwon do kicks or Kempo striking combinations. You saw relatively simple strikes like palm heels, knees, elbows, hammerfists, and these are from people who taught various martial arts full time.

I saw exactly two kicks thrown-one was a thai kick to the leg by a guy who trained heavily in Thai boxing and one was a sidekick to the stomach by a Tae Kwon do instructor.

This replicates real life as I have seen various martial arts trained people in real fights and it looks nothing like sparring in their dojo. I don't doubt that they can hit a lot harder and faster, but a lot of techniques get shitcanned under the extreme stress of real life violence. And that is what the guys in the padded suits do--simulate all of the dialoge and physical actions that lead up to an assault and cause an adrenal rush and fight or flight reflex in the students. And the students learn what it is to fight successfully in spite of adrenal stress.

A scenario might start with the padded assailant playing a street attacker who starts to engage you in conversation the way creeps on the street will. This makes you nervous, as I am sure you have gotten if you met someone in the street who you were sure was going to try something. The padded assailant then gets closer and often increases the tension with all types of threats and cursing. He may rush in and fight you or you may be able to engage him in dialogue, offering him your wallet or something to get his guard down, affording you the opportunity to launch a pre-emptive attack. This is where the padded suit comes in, because I don't know anyone who will let you pre-emtively hit them in the head as hard as you can.

The attackers are not cooperative, but rather push the students along with more and more resistance, depending on the students' level. I caught a hook and got knocked down the last time I was there, which is something that never happened when I spared in kickboxing.

unstpabl1
03-19-2005, 11:13 PM
V42
I totally understand,appreciate & agree with your post.i get what rmcat accomplishes & would love to do it soon.Ialso think Petersen is a brilliant salesman(not saying this is a good thing)He took his understanding &interpitation of san soo,packaged it,marketed IT & sold it for big $$$.The top san soo guys nly charge around $85 a mo.,no contract.I've dinked around w san soo & the hammerfists,palmheels,elbows,etc you said are effective are strssed more than any system Ive seen.WWII combatives with a partner,if you will,yet spontaneous(sp) :) I admit I'm intriqued with san soo,but currently train jkd/kali
mike

usnken
03-20-2005, 11:25 AM
V42,

Having been to RMCAT, can you answer the following questions, as Im considering attending;

1. Would you do it again?
2. Would you recommend it for others?
3. Was it worth the price?
4. Did you attend the week long, or the basic 3- day course?
5. Did the effects of the training last, or did the 'high' of the intense weekend go aways after weeks?
6. Do they offer a 'refresher' course for those who have completed the training? ...Or a discount if someone wants to take the course again in a few years?
7. Any advice for anyone wanting to attend?

Thanks!

V42
03-20-2005, 07:45 PM
1. Would you do it again?

I went twice. I think when you attend the second time it really reinforces some of the things that you learned the first time and it gives you time to reflect on your performance against the padded assailants the first time and do a lot of things better. Peyton mentions that he sees an enorrmous improvement in people the second time around. I saw a fair number of people who were attending twice. I might even consider going again except:

A. I was working at a different job at the time and made
about 33% more than I do now.

b. I just started a new job and my vacation time can be measured in minutes. I have to choose my training opportunities very carefully.

2. Would you recommend it for others?

Absolutely.

3. Was it worth the price?

I think so. Mainly because you can get training and experiences that you cannot get most other places.

4. Did you attend the week long, or the basic 3- day course?

The first time I went to the basic weekend course (all unarmed). The second time I went was for the weekend unarmed course and the 2 day point shooting course. Tou do about 1 day point shooting and targets with live ammo from handguns, rifles, and shotguns and about 1 day shooting padded attackers with wax bullets.

5. Did the effects of the training last, or did the 'high' of the intense weekend go aways after weeks?

It definitley lasts. Similar training was done for women as rape defense called Model Mugging. Woen successfully used the methods to defend themselves and knock out *unexpecting* attackers years after completing the course. Keep in mind most attackers of women are not expecting effective resistance and when they encounter it they are unprepared.

6. Do they offer a 'refresher' course for those who have completed the training? ...Or a discount if someone wants to take the course again in a few years?

They don't offer a formal refresher course. Most people just attend a second class. I did it 6 months after I took the first class. Some people do it a year or a few years later.

7. Any advice for anyone wanting to attend?

Go. And after going practice, practice, practice. Get a heavybag or a bob and practice some of the strikes. Get a heavy bag and practice doing palm strikes with both hands. Make sure you rotate at the hip so you are putting your entire body into it and not just your arm into each strike. Under fight or flight stress I notice that many people try to strike very fast and wind up just putting their arms into it and not torquing their entire upper body into it which gives you much better power.

Marc "Crafty Dog" Denny
03-20-2005, 09:35 PM
Woof All:

Tangent:

Peyton Quinn of the Rocky Mtn camp has a couple of books out, amongst them "A Bouncer's Guide to Barroom Brawling etc." This book is quite funny and full of practical little gems for the context in which it was written as well words for the young male on avoiding problems when possible.

One point from the book that I use in my teaching is the the importance of preparing your witnesses should someone be seriously "interviewing" you.

If things have to go that far and you win without having prepared your witnesses, people will often first notice you AFTER the fight has broken out and, unaware of how things got started, will simply see you winning i.e. in their eyes you are the aggressor and will testify to it. If they are unfamiliar with violence, they may be greatly impressed by what they see, especially as they have a big moment in the spotlight.

I admit that all this had not crossed my mental radar screen at the time I read the book, and judging by many faces I see when I "pay it forward", other people are currently at a similar moment in their respective paths. Not many of them around here perhaps ;-) but amongst the general population, yes.

Crafty/Marc

Cold War Scout
06-03-2005, 12:46 PM
Got this for a BTDT friend today:
---------------------------------------
"I did SCARS in the teams and found it pretty lame."

Belisarius
06-03-2005, 02:45 PM
I did the 300-hour SCARS course and would agree that the approach is pretty lame. The written material said all the right things, but the system itself has an extremely idealized concept of what actually happens when you fight someone who wants to tear your head off. Peterson might respond that this is on purpose and that the concept of the "noble lie" is ok if it creates an atmosphere of confidence.

I won't get into specific problems, but I will say that Peterson is not lying about having trained NSW operators for awhile. I should add that IMHO there are a couple of good things which can be gleaned from SCARS and that a few of the instructors were able to make it work ok in training (Mike Jaco, Shane Ludwig, Troy Lane, etc.). These guys would say that SCARS is better than nothing, but worse than what they are doing now.

Belisarius
06-03-2005, 02:46 PM
The claims of a rigorously quantitative basis for SCARS are not accurate. Peterson's MA background was in San Soo and he is not a quant. In any case, the only way to develop a quant model for HTH would be to set up a multi-factor regression and to calibrate it to fit the curve of real-world results.

Doing this could keep a think-tank of stats PhDs busy for several grant renewals, and even then the results would probably be far from counter-intuitive ("we have found that big, strong, aggressive guys who hit very hard; enter with supporting footwork; protect their heads; apply large muscle groups, explosive compound movements, and leverage/low center of gravity to dominate certain aspects of the fight; and possess high anaerobic failure thresholds tend to win in hand-to-hand combat").

V42
06-03-2005, 05:47 PM
Excellent summation, Bel.

You said 300 hour course.

Over how many days did the course run?

Belisarius
06-03-2005, 06:43 PM
Hey, V. It was 30 days, non-stop, approximately 10 hours a day plus a final exercise that involved a lot of sentry-removal problems on the beach, some of which were very fake. The course was run by the NSWC schoolhouse, so you got temporary duty orders stamped, checked into PSD at NAB Coronado, and received per diem pay and so on. I could go into this in boring detail, but a lot of what I have seen posted about how training is conducted in the Teams is very misleading.

The first period was spent between academic stuff, some of which was useful and some of which was incorrect/simplistic, and a lot of work with the 25 or so "fighting sets" that were used. You did the sets by the numbers, a bunch of times, and then eventually started doing "free-fighting" and "dead-zone fighting" and mass attacks and so on. You also practiced giving lessons (it was a train-the-trainer type program).

Belisarius
06-03-2005, 06:50 PM
Eventually we started hitting and throwing each other pretty hard and people started getting hurt---it was a rough & tumble group of frogmen plus a couple of Green Beanie types, so physicality was to be expected. The people who did the best were guys with previous MA or sport backgrounds. Once the intensity amped up, the "windmill strikes" and neutral stances with hands left at sides went out the windom and it looked like straight brawling.

One of the many problems was that there was a heavy good guy vs. bad guy role-playing element to the way the training was conducted, so you got a definite one-step-sparring vibe going and we all know the problems with that. This created a false sense of resistance and freedom, because the attacker might throw one shot pretty hard, but then was basically supposed to get hit a bunch of times and to dramatically overreact to the hits in order to support the "autokinematic reaction" thesis and create the right training climate. I did like one or two of the dedicated attack sets and have retained them.

V42
06-04-2005, 12:01 AM
Thanks, Bel. Very interesting.

We hear a lot about SCARS being taught in the Naval Special Warfare program, but nothing about the program of how it was taught or how long the course was, etc.

Did you have any experience with the Duane Dieter system? I know nothing about that and it would be interesting to hear if you have the time and inclination.

Cincinnatus
06-04-2005, 07:36 AM
V42,

I think I've told you this on the phone, and I may have posted it on the Self Destructing Forum, but here it is again. An old training buddy of mine, a serious student of McCann's stuff, took Dieter's course as part of a mandated train up that his whole team went through prior to a deployment. His comment was that the stuff they were taught, and this is an exact quote, was "Too silly for words."

This guy is pretty open minded and has a good attitude and work ethic, but VERY little tolerance for BS. I'm certain he went into the course with the hope of learning worthwhile techniques and the willingness to work at them. Take this for whatever you think it's worth.

Belisarius
06-04-2005, 08:24 AM
My experience with Dieter's stuff was that it is really focused on two things, both involving direct action operations. You do weapon retention work to protect yourself and get people out of the way during an entry, and you do a lot of prisoner handling where you park your M4 or MP5 and move in to take control of someone (while your partner covers the prisoner with a weapon).

What Dieter did, wisely, is look at the two hot spots where military HTH has a good probability of actually occurring---1) during the initial moments of a CQB entry, and 2) on any DA op after you've secured the target and called in the prisoner team---and concerned himself mainly with those. He also has been able to keep his profile relatively low and to avoid BS marketing claims that have rendered some other systems toxic. As a last point, I'll say he is into validating skills in an environment that can best be described as a combination of a counter-ambush IAD drill, adrenal stress scenario training, and a killhouse.

Belisarius
06-04-2005, 08:34 AM
Dieter himself is apparently some kind of martial arts polymath, with rankings in all kinds of things, but his big credential stems from his background in some form of Fukien Wing Chun. There are a ax hands and vertical fist punches and sweeps in the system, a "spring stance" that is pretty close to body alarm, and the concern with centerline that you would expect from WC.

In my opinion, the system is for gunfighters who need to put hands on someone, rather than for HTH fighters who need to scrap their way to guns. Let me add that CQD was just starting to come into its own when I was getting out, and that the Combat Fighting Course cadre had visited Dieter after SCARS had been implemented for that course, and learned that Lew Hicks had been a bit deceptive about claiming to have looked at CQD before deciding to hook up his then-friend Jerry Peterson. Dieter was not new to NSW and had been working with the assault and sniper teams at Jedi, Inc. for some time.

Belisarius
06-04-2005, 08:40 AM
Dieter was one of the guys who showed the weaknesses that are inherent in chaining windmilling arm strikes and modified horse stances. This is not to say that CQD is perfect, but it does have a testing/validation loop to it that SCARS did not have. The Teams have also sent guys to work entry team HTH stuff with a lot of other people, including a veteran Marine ANGLICO/SWAT guy named Chuck Habermehl. I personally like how Chuck does things.

Sorry for the long ramble and I hope this helps. I don't want to bad-mouth anyone---Peterson, Dieter, Habermehl, et al are all talented men in their own ways and you can probably get something out of what each of them do.

unstpabl1
06-04-2005, 09:48 PM
Bel
Thanks for the ramble :) very informative.I took a serious look at san soo....I liked the improvisational feel of it & it soundd like what every one calls combatives(FAS).Also felt you could practice it at advanced ages.But the lack of any type of resisting botherd me.I suspect that partof the art wasn't taught by Jimmy Woo here.I may be wrong,but I can't imagine any system so complete techique wise,not to have ways of training against aggressive resisting oppenents.But look at judo,what once had a strong sd focus now seems watered down by the sport.Although,i think that if i was 18 instead of 48 ,thats where i'd start.now, who knows.Thanks
mike schoenfeld

tmanifold
06-04-2005, 09:54 PM
The problem with SCARS has always been its claims to be the ultra perfect system and the manner in which it was practiced. There is a lot of good info there. The use of NLP to help form an agressive mindset, the concept of striking or intercepting attacks rather than statically blocking them (I think the windmill sucks too but the concept is valid). I also believe that the "autokinetics" concept has a place when used properly. The plain fact of the matter is that if you are struck somewhere you will perform an reaction. How severe that reaction will depend on a multiude of factors, such as accuracy and power of the blow, pain threshold, drugs etc.

How I encorporate that concept in to my training is that the initial learning involves the exagerated responses.After a very short time you start to vary the response from full to no response at all as well as every place in between. The problem with padding up and no using responses is that we tend to throw combinations that are comfortable to us rather than those that fit the situation. The problem with the way SCARS is most often practiced is the complete opposite; throwing combination of expected situations. Obviously, niether way is ideal. One must learn to adapt to new situations. Using the range of responses gives a sembalance of the realism from fighting or sparring while safely allowing strikes that can not be allowed in a sparring session. In short, it is just one more tool not the entire system.

philw
06-05-2005, 01:00 AM
Bel,

We just did some training covering the two areas - initial entry and prisoner handling - that you mentioned. But, as usual, we only got about 10 minutes input. What techniques does Dieter teach for taking down and passing people you encounter when you enter a building?

Regards,

Phil

Belisarius
06-05-2005, 07:02 AM
Hi, Phil. Dieter, like other people, uses muzzle strikes, low-line kicking, knee spikes, and basic striking with the offhand (mostly palm-heels and vertical axes). You will often see the #1 man entering with a SIG in a retention tuck in one hand, offhand in a sort of bladed Wing Chun/centerline position, but this was kind of driven by the shipboard VBSS mission of the Teams.

When it comes to prisoner-handling, he is of the school that the designated handler should physically park the shoulder weapon (hence the velcro weapon-retention loop that he developed--bungees were used previously), work with a shooter buddy, and take control of the guy after suitable verbal commands and all that. Once again, you will see a heavy Wing Chun influence in the position of the hands as the handler approaches the BG; this can be a bit of a turn-off if you aren't a big fan of WC (I'm not particularly enamored with it).

All-in fighting
06-05-2005, 02:03 PM
seals can use rat, scars, safeta, marine -line or anything pretty well because they are in great shape! great shape!---ralph

tmanifold
06-05-2005, 08:48 PM
seals can use rat, scars, safeta, marine -line or anything pretty well because they are in great shape! great shape!---ralph


That pretty much sums it up. A supremely conditioned, highly motivated individual with an aggressive mindset and a strong willingness to "soldier through" pain can be very devasting. This is why football and rugby turn out such tough fighters even though they are not combat arts.

philw
06-06-2005, 05:33 AM
Thanks, Bel. That's pretty much what we do - the strikes, that is. I figure aggression is the most important part of the mix. It's interesting that you mentioned the weapon loop. We traditionally use bungees. While useful, they have their flaws - I've seen them clip selector levers to fire, and they don't necessarily hold the weapon that tightly. But a couple of days ago, one of my team mates turned up with a velcro webbing loop/collar attached to his body armour. On first appearances, it seemed quite good - easy to use, covered the trigger guard and I (admittedly puny) couldn't easily pull the weapon away. It'll be interesting to see how it pans out.

Phil