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Gabriel Suarez
11-19-2003, 03:32 PM
MOVING AND SHOOTING ANYWHERE AND ANYTIME

The modern examination of the Teuller Drill taught us to move. It taught us that trying to outdraw anybody whether armed with a knife or gun, while holding our ground, was an exercise in futility. I understand the dynamics of hitting and even if you have Jordan-like speed, the likelihood that your man will drop at the first shot is not very hight. Sure you MAY hit him very quickly, but will that stop him?

So we practice moving forward and rearward at angles to the one o’clock and the eleven o’clock as we bring our pistol to bear and fire as needed. Ah, but that is not the end of it.

Whether an army of thousand or an army of one, deception is a part of conflict. The most basic deception is to attack an area that is not readily seen by the defender. In the case of personal combat, that is represented by our flanks and our rear area.

So we practice the concepts of; Recognition, Displacement/Response, Displacement/Assessment, to the flanks (right and left) as well as to the rear.

Recognition – The first thing to consider is that you will not be looking at the adversary at the outset of the fight. If you had, you would have positioned yourself in a more advantageous position than where you are now. Thus you either heard something, or otherwise sensed that there is an adversary coming. Perhaps he yelled, “Hey a**hole!”, or something else that got your attention. What is the first thing human nature dictates we will do? You will turn your head to look at the source of the startle.

The total situation will dictate whether you will draw, or attempt a disarm, or even simply smash him with your fist.

Displacement/Response – As soon as you realize the fight is on, you must move. Whether its to avoid a gun muzzle, or to avoid his draw, you must move as we discussed before. As you move you will draw your pistol. Don’t worry about trying to move and then draw, or to draw and then move, or any other way time the thing. Just think – “Get Out Of The Way” and “Shoot Him”. It will work out fine. Again, don’t concern yourself with shooting twice only. Shoot him to the ground. I prefer to fire triples and then stage for a possible failure to stop.

Displacement/Assessment – Once you’ve fired and displaced, move again as you assess the area. Don’t stand in one place too long. Remember: All rounds are sent to your last known address!

B0486
11-19-2003, 03:53 PM
Excellent Gabe

Everyone should pay attention to every word in your post, it may be the difference between living and dying.

Brownie

jacketch
11-19-2003, 04:16 PM
Having watched a number of CCTV video's of shootings between clerks and robbers in convenience stores, it quickly becomes obvious that even at very close range, moving is of critical importance to survival.

MTS
11-19-2003, 04:45 PM
Having watched a number of CCTV video's of shootings between clerks and robbers in convenience stores, it quickly becomes obvious that even at very close range, moving is of critical importance to survival.

Or attorneys behind trees.

StealthF2
11-19-2003, 05:49 PM
Wow. A short essay that prompts a lot of thought. Do I sense a trend? :)

Some hasty thoughts: Our natural response to events that require immediate action is often not the correct one. Consider that in most cases when you're startled, your first response is to figure where the stimulus is, then what it is, then how to deal with it. (It always makes me laugh when I see a movie car chase where pedestrians all jump out of the way. We all know how that would go down in real life.) However, our responses CAN be conditioned through proper training and reinforced by continuous application of SPA ("search, predict, act"--I learned it from a Motorcycle Safety Foundation class but it has much wider applications than just on the road). After all, is not most (if not all) of our training predicated on "what-ifs"? What if that guy swerves in front of me? What if that woman pulls a knife? What if those three unsavory characters make a move?

We're training ourselves to work with (if not bypass altogether) instinct so that we can react effectively if/when necessary. Unfortunately, some of the training we do--namely static on-the-firing-line shooting--trains us to stand and fight, rather than move and (maybe) fight. I've seen and trained with "simulated" movement--taking one step in either direction while performing a tactical reload, for example--but there's just no substitute for actual shooting and moving in a safe, controlled range environment.

I, for one, really need to work on my movement. Recently a friend and I did a desert shoot and he videotaped me as I cleared two simulated rooms. Once I was finished and my mind was off the task, he called "The guy on the left!" I brought my shotgun up and CLICK! So I immediately transitioned to my sidearm. Watching the video later, I was mightily impressed with my unconscious transition (although my wife commented that I'd looked down!). Looking back now, I realize that although I was fairly quick, I was also rooted to one spot. In the same amount of time, I could probably have run back around the corner and regrouped. At the very least, I would have presented a much more difficult target. (Reminds me of the climax of Silence of the Lambs--the book--when Jame Gumb fairly walks out of the room.)

And there's so much more to movement than just not getting hit--like stacking your opponents and using them as shields against one another, for one.

Yes, I want to be quick on the draw, to get the drop on the bad guy. But action beats reaction, and I'd really rather not offer an easy target. The quick-draw, timed-skills-test stuff is valuable, but not being there to receive incoming is more valuable, IMO. All skills should work together as a system. So I shall add this little mantra to my inner monologue: "Move! Move! MOVE!"

Thanks as always, Gabe!

StealthF2
11-19-2003, 09:15 PM
I have always felt the at arms length distances, the best movement may be the move around your adversary. Get to the side of the BG and work your way towards his rear. Much like a good boxer working the angles.

Fantastic points! I just watched The Defensive Edge featuring Ernie Franco (very basic knife-fighting skills) last night for the first time and he demonstrates some trapping, grappling and getting behind your opponent. Once you start thinking of a handgun as a potential close-in weapon, instead of merely a stand-off weapon, it's so obvious. You don't just react to him; you get ahead of him and make him react to you. It's not the ideal mix of tactics, but why not block and/or trap (and MOVE) in order to get a shot? I'm sure you're all familiar with the climactic hand-to-hand-with-guns battle of Equilibrium.

Thanks, Sweatnbullets! I knew there was a reason I hang around here: to expand my mind!

BillyOblivion
11-20-2003, 02:59 AM
Gabe,

Excellent post and I am in complete agreement. I have been taught many of the ''static'' range drills and have always found them lacking. Sure, some are necessary basic fundamentals, but,
<...>
Draw stroke
Malfunction clearances
<...>
I have always felt the at arms length distances, the best movement may be the move around your adversary.
<...>


If you're at arms length with your opponent[s] you probably don't have time to clear the malfunction.

You are now in a fist fight.

chucky
11-20-2003, 11:58 AM
still have a fairly effective club, if you know how to use it.







QUOTE=BillyOblivion]If you're at arms length with your opponent[s] you probably don't have time to clear the malfunction.

You are now in a fist fight.[/QUOTE]

Hasher
11-20-2003, 06:37 PM
still have a fairly effective club, if you know how to use it.







QUOTE=BillyOblivion]If you're at arms length with your opponent[s] you probably don't have time to clear the malfunction.

You are now in a fist fight.[/QUOTE]


Thats nice chucky

Gabriel Suarez
11-21-2003, 02:54 PM
I really like moving. In fact when I teach a basics class I have to consciously stop myself so I demonstrate the basics correctly.

On the range, there is always a compromise however. I think the closer you are to the enemy, the more you have to move. That said, how do you get a line of ten guys to do that safely? Hard to do, thus lateral movement is done on a limited basis.

I teach them that movement may be limited on the range, but that moving must be balanced to the situation as well as the accuracy needs of the problem at hand.

Generally, body shots are no problem on the move (with limited lateral moving or dynamic lateral moving). This can be done to a point with live fire. To really get the understanding of this, leaving the square range and going force-on-force with airsoft must be done.

Deaf Smith
11-21-2003, 04:02 PM
Gabe,

Shooting while moving is challenging. Shooting a moving target is also challenging. But try shooting while you and the target are moving!

To practice that, I put together a remote-controled 'mover'. No, I did not spend $1000 or such. I bought a toy remote controled Hummer, added PVC elbows on 4 locations to hold pine sticks (about 4 ft tall, 1/4 X 1/4 inch.)

I staple computer bottoms to the target sticks and have a friend control the mover. It can be very interesting, especially if your 'friend' moves the mover in some very 'unfriendly' ways, trying to screw you up!

I posted a photo of it on Glocktalk awhile back. About all that was said was, 'see you play with toys'. Oh, well, you can lead a horse to water....

There are a few catches with the mover. Wind is one! Even a small breeze will tip over the mover! Another is ground. You don't want to use it on very bumpy ground least it tips it over again! Now some bumps are GOOD. That makes the target giggle. Add a t-shirt to the target and it becomes a good learning experience.

One day, I hope to see 4 or 5 movers at once! A few 'no shoots', and the rest shoot movers! A friend of mine, who shoots IDPA with me, made a target 'patch' that was velcoed on. When ever the target moved, or another target moved, the 'patch' would be pulled off by a string and reveal such as weapons, purses, cell phones, etc..... This makes the shooter have to LOOK before he shoots (and while moving at that!)

Now add those two together. Movers and decision steps forces quickly and it becomes even more a learning experience.

I'm always open to new ideas. We are now only starting to understand who difficulty armed conflict really is.

Deaf

StealthF2
11-21-2003, 05:37 PM
Deaf: I read the RC car/balloon idea recently and started thinking about adding a stand to a car--yours is the only one I've seen pictures of. Nice! All my target stands are PVC (my own design, thanks so much) and I've been trying to figure out a cheap but effective portable mover system--whether it be a couple more stands, sandbags and some fishing line, or an RC car. (I have one, but it would only be suitable for the balloon pull. And unless you have a helium tank, it's not practical in the field.)

Gabe: Love the Airsoft training concept--it's so practical. More on that in a minute...

Sweatnbullets: I'm going to need some time to organize my thoughts. :)

Deaf Smith
11-21-2003, 06:09 PM
StealthF2,

Here is another thought. Get a good soft air gun, I'm looking at Glock models now, and a scuba tank! You can get a regulator for thnk use it to fill balloons! Then, just have the balloons released and you draw and fire as they go past (should work well on windy days, in fact that might be the best days to use it.)

As for the PVC. Have you ever thought of making a PVC carrage, fill it full of sand in the tubes before sealing them, and drag that by rope and pully. I bet one could get a cheep electric motor that has a pully on the end and use a converter that fits a car's cigerett lighter plug to rund the pully. Might even just use a dreamal tool with a pully wheel. I do have one of those. Hmm.

Deaf

StealthF2
11-22-2003, 01:34 AM
If you move dynamically to your 2:00 or 10:00 with the idea of moving around your adversary, while engaging, would seem to have many benifits.

Brings to mind the most basic of training in kung fu San Soo: the 45-degree steps. Always moving forward, never backward, you step 45 degrees to the left or right of your opponent, so your head is not there when his fist arrives, for example. Again, it's basic--in a close-range gunfight, you're not going to take the prescribed step, turn, and fire (I hope); you're more likely to step or shuffle (or lunge), block or push, fire and start backing up. <--That's probably a training bias on my part; perhaps too much time at the range on-line with a bunch of other guys has ingrained the backing-up...but then, I can't quite get my head around the idea of orbiting around my opponent while I fill him with lead. But in the interest of mind expansion, this weekend I'm going to spend some time doing dry practice with my heavy bag. (I've attached padded PVC arms to it to make things interesting.)


What got me working on this was the "static" responses. You know the drills where you turn to engage an adversary to your right, left, and rear. The choreographed footwork may be a necessary basic fundamental, but, it is still planting your feet in cement. I have heard people say "just turn around and shoot the bastard" (JTAASTB) and that just makes so much more sense. Why the hell would I turn all the way around and square up with my feet planted? It makes a lot more sense to turn partially, present my weapon and move laterally while engaging. This led to the natural progression of moving around the BG, not just away.

Just seems to make sense to me. Any thoughts?

I've never heard of any type of choreographed footwork. Obviously if you're moving, there's no planting. Seems that we walk and get around obstacles pretty well without thinking about it, and I wouldn't want to have to depend on my ability to remember dance steps while I engage multiple targets.* As far as the turning goes, if you can't face north and rotate your body fully east and west without moving your feet, you might need to do some flexibility work. (From an isoceles, I can get to southwest and southeast--SE with a little more effort.) In any case, you're likely to just pivot on the balls of your feet without thinking about it. And that's what I'd like to do most in a gunfight: not have to think about what I'm doing. So no fancy footwork to get in the way of the shooting. (And why would we want/need to be planted, anyway? We're moving!)

*The whole "targets at 0, 270 and 90 degrees" drill (I'm sure there's a name) smacks of "mall ninja" tactics to me (one of Lenny Magill's videos made a big deal about it). Not to be unnecessarily harsh. I want to develop my skills so I can meet every challenge, but the idea that I'm going to stand in one spot and engage like a tank with no mobility seems impractical, if not suicidal (unless I'm behind some really good cover). And if that's the way I train, that's the way I'll fight. So again, I'm moving.

We're taking my "baby" brother the airline pilot to the desert after Thanksgiving and boy, is that going to be educational. :D

Gabriel Suarez
11-22-2003, 07:40 AM
*The whole "targets at 0, 270 and 90 degrees" drill (I'm sure there's a name) smacks of "mall ninja" tactics to me (one of Lenny Magill's videos made a big deal about it). Not to be unnecessarily harsh. I want to develop my skills so I can meet every challenge, but the idea that I'm going to stand in one spot and engage like a tank with no mobility seems impractical, if not suicidal (unless I'm behind some really good cover). And if that's the way I train, that's the way I'll fight. So again, I'm moving.



I haven't seen Magill's tape so I can't comment. Actually the idea of engaging adversaries on any angle along a 360 degree line is important because your enemies will not always be facing you head on. What I teach is to be able to engage on any angle : Facing dead on, to the sides, or behind, and at any range (shooting at 7 yards has diferent problems that at 7 inches).

But I don't teach planting the feet, rather to draw and engage AS you move off-line, and then move again after shooting for the assessment process. Sometimes guys as if they should shoot and then move, or move and then shoot. What I tell them is that they have to move, AND they have to shoot...at the same time. The body will figure out how to do it.

We know how to walk and move and so on, so its a simple matter to get guys to understand the concept and then apply the gun.

StealthF2
11-22-2003, 01:23 PM
Absolutely. Amazing what the body and mind can do in a pinch.

360-degree live-fire training presents some logistical difficulties, doesn't it? One more thing on my training wish list... :D

One thing I wanted to mention but forgot to earlier was that although we're going into all this minute detail, the events we're discussing will likely happen in a matter of seconds. Preparation is the key.

Gabriel Suarez
03-08-2016, 06:16 PM
Bringing this back from the annals of history for those who cannot search and have a hard time reading. This from 2003...some...what - THIRTEEN years ago now. And to think some people still think a flipping side step is sufficient.....

chad newton
03-08-2016, 06:40 PM
I like the comment someone put in one of the other threads about squaring up to get shot in the vest. It's like they were planning on it???? F!!! That sh!i!!!!

Gabriel Suarez
03-08-2016, 06:43 PM
Lions don't concern themselves with the gunfire from the zebra or gazelles. He will never be where they are shooting, and at their necks before they can adjust.

Dorkface
03-08-2016, 06:49 PM
Whoa.... a legit necro post...

WinstonSmith
03-08-2016, 09:25 PM
Impressive. I don't think I have any electronic records of my words from thirteen years ago. Most people wouldn't have the courage to keep their old writing public like this.