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Ghostmedia
04-10-2009, 05:17 PM
Looking for information on the pros/cons of 9MM AR15 carbines. Are costs worth the AR familiarity compared to other 9MM carbine types available? Any specific experience with unreliability with the 9MM AR platform and what is the hierarchy among manufacturers such as Rock River, Olympic Arms, Colt etc.? Several magazine types stemming from Sten, Uzi, etc magazine types. Which are held in higher regard? Gabe's comments on the benefits of semi automatic SMGs has me really thinking going this route for the added flexibility of having a pistol caliber carbine to complement rifle chambered ARs and AKs and would like to get WT members thoughts/opinions/experience on the matter.

Gabe Suarez
04-11-2009, 08:14 AM
My experience with these is that the magazines are a weak point. If you have mags that work, it should be a very GTG weapon...specially if you are an AR guy.

karl johnson
04-11-2009, 08:30 AM
I don't care for them and think there are better options. The mags have always been the weak point, but they are also just not as shootable as the UZI, Storm, HK94 clone etc. You can really feel the heavy bolt group moving back and forth more than with the others. The only really reliable brand I've seen is Colt, though I have seen GTG individual Oly and RRA guns and I have to admit the Glock mag taking Oly version is pretty appealing. I've not had any experience, even second hand, with the newer Bushmaster version. Also, even SBR'd the gun with stock extended is almost as long as a 16" UZI or Storm. I am not as concerned about the cross platform training issues as some, but that's something you'll have to evaluate for yourself.

They are not, as a class, awful. I just think there are better options.

dletsch
04-11-2009, 10:16 AM
I have one (from Garrison Manufacturing - he supplies a complete kit less lower receiver - including a nice, colt-style block.)

The polymer pro-mag 9mm magazines are cheap and reliable, but not durable. If you treat them the way I do (dropping them on ground), you will crack a feed lip every 1000 rounds or so. The C-Products magazines are reliable and durable, but have QC issues and you may have to send them back to get ones that work right. Original Colt mags work, but are hard to find. New Colt mags are just re-marked C-Products mags.

I DO NOT like the way the gun feels. To me, the advantage of the AR platform is the near-total lack of recoil when set up properly. You can really feel the bolt cycle in a 9mm AR. Using longer buffers and different springs can alter the feel to where it is acceptable, but never really low-recoil.

For training, I get more from a .22lr AR conversion. The recoil impulse is closer to .223. As a weapon - well, my 9mm AR is accurate and reliable. I spend more time shooting ARs than the other platforms, as I like to compete (and be competitive) in 3-Gun. I would not hesitate to use my 9mm AR as a weapon, and am quite confident of my ability to hit targets quickly at any realistic range.

Ghostmedia
04-11-2009, 01:01 PM
I appreciate the feedback received so far. Someone I shoot/train with has an Oly 9MM with a fun switch (Class III dealer)---it is quite impressive in the firepower category and has proved reliable. Another guy has a RRA SBR 9MM that will not run at all---but has altered recoil springs and buffers so I can not label what the problem stems from.

My goal is for a RRA 7" SBR 9MM set up to accept a Yankee Hill suppressor. The availability of 147gr 9MM will be study supply of sub-sonic rounds for the rifle/suppressor combination. I agree with Gabe in that nothing is sacrificed with the semi-auto vs select fire carbine based on experience. In fact Gabe's writings in the Newsletter and WT is what started me down this path. What should I expect for the effective range of the 9MM carbine? My range experience with other 9MM carbines leads me to expect 150-200yds. Still debating on whether or not to mount a red dot/holographic sight or just stay with the open sights. I am found of the Trijicon Reflex sight due to it not being a prisoner of batteries.

karl johnson
04-11-2009, 01:10 PM
The reflex washes out in bright light in my experience. Modern electro-optics have battery lives measured in years: get over your aversion. :p

I can say that because I was the same until the Aimpoint M2 came out, and the new ones last even longer.

Dan-O
04-11-2009, 05:10 PM
The reflex washes out in bright light in my experience. Modern electro-optics have battery lives measured in years: get over your aversion. :p

I can say that because I was the same until the Aimpoint M2 came out, and the new ones last even longer.


Indeed.
Even the New EOtech's have 5OO hour battery lives which is over 20 days of continuous operation. (EO's have an auto shut off feature to keep you from killing your batteries if you arent using them too)

I have an Aimpoint T1 that I turned on the 2nd highest setting in Mid 2007 and left on till now. Still going.....

dletsch
04-12-2009, 06:45 AM
If you are planning 147 grain, make sure you have a barrel that likes it. 9mm ARs seem to come in 1 in 10, 1 in 15 and 1 in 16 inch twist rates. I do not think a 1 in 16 out of a 7" barrel will give you acceptable accuracy with a 147 grain bullet.

covrtsnpr
04-12-2009, 08:13 AM
I like the AR platform so I got a 9mm to train with which allows me to shoot steel targets. It will not put big dents or holes in my steel. It is a RRA with uzi and c-products mags and I have never had any mag problems. I learned a tip from a fellow shooter, while you are loading the mags put your thumb over the top of the mag and hit the bottomof the mag on the table or something hard, it will loosen up those rounds that seem to drag in the mag. Barrell length will not give you an increase in velocity over a pistol barrel length. The most increase I have seen is 50fps and that was with a 16 inch barrel compared to a glock 19. I have never noticed the bolt feel that was mentioned. Mine would not shoot 115gr blazer with the aluminum cases.

briansmithwins
04-12-2009, 10:29 AM
A couple of local matches I do are limited to pistol calibers to prevent damage to the steel.

Lots of guys with 9mmP ARs. I've seen many of them choke. The Olympic PCCs (pistol caliber carbine) that use Glock mags seem to be the most reliable of the breed.

I use a semi-Uzi for the same matches. No problems with reliability and mags are still available and cheep. OTOH, if you have to have optics the Uzi is NOT the way to go.

BSW

Ghostmedia
04-12-2009, 10:47 AM
Thanks for the head's up about barrel twist and bullet weight...did not even think about it...why I asked for WT experience!! RRA states 1:10 in literature. RRA states modified Uzi magazines with 25rd capacity. What gets modified and why the loss of capacity versus normal 32rd Uzi capacity?

ranburr
04-14-2009, 09:03 PM
I have the Oly that uses Glock mags. It shoots great and I have never had any issues with it. It is the most basic of designs.

SigPro09
04-16-2009, 09:33 AM
My experience with these is that the magazines are a weak point. If you have mags that work, it should be a very GTG weapon...specially if you are an AR guy.

+1. I spent an entire summer season fighting with a 9mm AR. Eventually I converted it to .223. Great idea, but the mag's were the killer.

On the other hand, a buddy got a used Colt and ran the $60+ factory mag's only...runs great for him.

Best,

Nick

dletsch
04-16-2009, 10:38 AM
What gets modified and why the loss of capacity versus normal 32rd Uzi capacity?

A slot is cut so the magazine catch will work. The Uzi mags RRA sells only held 25 rounds when they were Uzi-only mags. I don't know why RRA sells those instead of the 32-rounders.

The UZI mags will not lock the bolt open on the last shot. Colt, Pro-Mag and C-Products mags will.

Ghostmedia
04-16-2009, 11:58 AM
Dletsch----will only the modified Uzi mags work in the RRA variant or will the other magazines you mentioned in your post work also? Yes, I am that new to the whole AR 9MM concept...

dletsch
04-16-2009, 10:14 PM
Dletsch----will only the modified Uzi mags work in the RRA variant or will the other magazines you mentioned in your post work also? Yes, I am that new to the whole AR 9MM concept...

they all should work on a current RRA.

Ghostmedia
04-20-2009, 04:42 PM
Based on experience what is the expected effective range for a pistol caliber carbine and what 9MM loads are the most efficient 115gr, 124gr, or 147gr? The RRA SBR I am expecting will have a 7" barrel--so not that much more than a a full size pistol--GLOCK 17L has a 6" barrel to put it in perspective, but expect the three points of contact that Gabe points out will enable much more accuracy. Do not plan on open sights as I ordered flat top quad rail and will need to pick a optic. Suggestions?

dletsch
05-03-2009, 11:44 AM
Based on experience what is the expected effective range for a pistol caliber carbine and what 9MM loads are the most efficient 115gr, 124gr, or 147gr? The RRA SBR I am expecting will have a 7" barrel--so not that much more than a a full size pistol--GLOCK 17L has a 6" barrel to put it in perspective, but expect the three points of contact that Gabe points out will enable much more accuracy. Do not plan on open sights as I ordered flat top quad rail and will need to pick a optic. Suggestions?

I like 115gr because your practice ammo will shoot the same (more or less) as your training ammo. It is hard, IMO, to get a 9mm AR to feel right (Getting the right weight of buffer and spring), and you want to have the gun feel and shoot the same in training as for defensive use. Also, the 115gr will have higher velocity and therefore, more range. I have not SBR'd my 9mm yet (although I think I will this year), so I can't comment on 7" barrel ballistics. You will have an accurate, reliable, ergonomic and handy 9mm carbine - but I don't know what the range will be.

Ghostmedia
05-03-2009, 12:30 PM
I have had the opportunity to handle one of the Century Sterling's...and it has only reinforced my desire for a SBR AR 9MM. The Sterling has proven very reliable with all ammunition attempted, but reload method with side loading magazine, relative crude sights, and 16" barrel has me wanting to give the AR SBR platform a try as I am much more familiar with handling it. All reply's to date are much appreciated pertaining to bullet weights, magazines, etc.

The Sterling 9MM showed me that the 9MM pistol chambered carbine is capable of hits at over 100yds on mansized steel targets...which should only be improved on with AR better sights, especially if holographic/red dot used in a flat top configuration. I will chrono 9MM loads once received to see what, if anything, is lost between the 9MM velocities from a 7"SBR compared to the 16" Century Sterling.

Thanks for the head's up about getting a 9MM AR to balance the same as my other AR's.

505stevec
06-09-2009, 09:13 PM
I have had a couple of Colt 9mm carbines. I have one now with 5 Colt mags and have never had a problem. I have reloaded for it and it shoots it all. I just traded for 5 CProduct mags so I am definitely hoping these will make a good showing. The Ar 9mm is definitely too long with the 16 bbl to conceal in a sneaky bag or such. I really want something shorter but will have to look for that later. I think the recoil is of no issue at all. Good luck in your endeavor.

VaGlocker
06-10-2009, 05:59 AM
Other than for shooting steel up close what is the point? Why choose a pistol cartrige over the rifle cartrige?

Chris Upchurch
06-10-2009, 06:09 AM
Other than for shooting steel up close what is the point? Why choose a pistol cartrige over the rifle cartrige?

http://warriortalk.com/showthread.php?t=51812