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Vinnie Moscaritolo
11-17-2003, 10:34 AM
I just read this in this month's crypto-gram from Bruce Schneirer,
I would say that this sums up the situtation correctly

http://www.schneier.com/crypto-gram.htm

The 9/11 Terrorists' Real Weapon

We all know that the new airline security procedures are silly. Baggage screeners taking away pocket knives and box cutters doesn't improve airline security, even after 9/11.

People who think otherwise don't understand what allowed the terrorists to take over four planes two years ago. It wasn't a small knife. It wasn't a box cutter. The critical weapon that the terrorists had was surprise. With surprise they could have taken the planes over with their bare hands. Without surprise they couldn't have taken the planes over, even if they had guns.

And surprise has been confiscated on all flights since 9/11. It doesn't matter what weapons any potential new hijackers have; the passengers will no longer allow them to take over airplanes. I don't believe that airplane hijacking is a thing of the past, but when the next plane gets taken over it will be because a group of hijackers figured out a clever new weapon that we haven't thought of, and not because they snuck some small pointy objects through security.

mako25
11-17-2003, 12:54 PM
vinnie,

I would love to believe you and if you are talking about an airplane full of 'warriortalk' members then Yes, the tangos would get a major ass kickin', but I seriously doubt that the average airline passenger would do anything. The guy who started fighting back on 9/11 was a rugby player and supposedly they had to vote on their actions. I think the sheep are gonna stay sheep and if we had a 9/11 situation every month for a year I honestly don't believe the public would care enough to make things change.

Sorry for the "glass is half empty" view, but...


mako

Tim Burke
11-17-2003, 04:42 PM
There have been episodes since 9/11 in which passengers that were acting up were subdued by other passengers, most notably Richard Reid, but several others.
I don't think the terrorists' main weapon was surprise, though. The main weapon they had was they knew they could count on the passengers to do what they had always been told was the appropriate thing to do in a hijacking: be quiet, keep a low profile, and wait for the Pros from Dover to come sort things out. No one believes that is the correct course of action anymore. There will probably still be some reluctance to initiate action, but once one does, other passengers will jump in.

silat1
11-19-2003, 01:05 AM
There have been episodes since 9/11 in which passengers that were acting up were subdued by other passengers, most notably Richard Reid, but several others.
I don't think the terrorists' main weapon was surprise, though. The main weapon they had was they knew they could count on the passengers to do what they had always been told was the appropriate thing to do in a hijacking: be quiet, keep a low profile, and wait for the Pros from Dover to come sort things out. No one believes that is the correct course of action anymore. There will probably still be some reluctance to initiate action, but once one does, other passengers will jump in.
During my trip to atlanta in may 02, I had to pass through Japan for connecting flights to the mainland.. We had a situation where we had a passenger that wouldn't get off the cellphone they were on even after take off... The passenger behind the individual told them to turn off the cell, which wasn't completed. I then reached across the aisle and asked them to turn it off, but again to no avail. On the 3rd attempt, 3 of us who were sitting around the individual with the cell stood up and " assisted" the flight attendant to persuade the individual to kill the cell.. Funny thing is, when you have 3 people who try to be kind to an individual and persuade them to turn off their cell after being announced to turn off all electronic devices, there are always people who try to stretch the boundaries... Some times when the situation dictates, diplomacy gets thrown out the window and when you are traveling internationally, you have to be more aware of the things that are taken for granted on commuter flights... It seemed the whole 14 hr trip from tokyo to atlanta, there was only about 5 people who slept the whole time.. IMHO, a few hours of sleep depravation is a small price pay to pay for the increased security and peace of mind to take action if the situation dictates..

Sometimes the sheeple have to have a few wolves in sheep's clothing to maintain control of the flock. :D


Bill
Defensive Tactics, Inc
Guam

billcameron
11-20-2003, 05:21 PM
I take an middle position on this question. The first groups on the planes that target the WTC had every reason to believe that this was a hostage situation. This is how it had been in the past, hostages taken, demands made and yes sometimes hostages killed. So with this experience/knowledge base it was perfectly logical, if not the way of the warrior, to not resist and wait for the pros. The passengers on the airplane in Pa had knowledge of what was happening and resisted. I don't recall if the passengers on the plane that hit the Pentagon had the full story of what was happening in NY or not. Does anyone recall? But in any case today our experience/knowledge base is changed and we can anticipate that hijackers would/may crash a plane. I think that this changes the picture. But human dynamics are strange, so I can envision one plane where the passenger complied, hoping against hope they would be safe and I can envision another situation where resistance is immediate, along with situations inbetween.

But there are many ways terrorists can strike. And if they use an unconventional method, many/most people will be frozen thinking what is happening?, this can't be happening?, etc. However, I believe we are kidding ourselves if we think that in future terrorist attacks individuals will have much or any opportunity to take action. 9-11 was probably unique in that the passenger saw and had an opportunity to confront and resist the terrorists. Such will probably not be the case with suicide bombers or release of chemical, biological agents.

Sam Spade
11-20-2003, 05:42 PM
However, I believe we are kidding ourselves if we think that in future terrorist attacks individuals will have much or any opportunity to take action. 9-11 was probably unique in that the passenger saw and had an opportunity to confront and resist the terrorists. Such will probably not be the case with suicide bombers or release of chemical, biological agents.

May I ask your reasoning for this statement? Israel shows a series of events where suicide bombers are stopped by armed individuals. Colombia and other places show examples of kidnappings and assassinations--common terrorist tactics--being stopped by determined resistance. Ditto events around SE Asia.

I don't think we have enough information on the NBC side of things yet.

billcameron
11-20-2003, 06:13 PM
Sam,

You ask why I think that citizens will not be in a position to stop terrorist attacks. First, you are right that it is just my opinion and frankly I hope I am wrong. There have not been a lot of organized terrorists attacks in the US. Those that come to mind besides 9-11 have been Oklahoma City, various abortion clinic bombing/shootings, unabomber (sp), the Olympic bombing in Atlanta, the anthrax attacks after 9-11. Maybe there have been terrorist attacks in US that were stopped by armed citizens and I don't recall them. Do you have any in mind? But anyhow I think what we are concerned about now is muslim extremists carrying out terror acts. And it is anyones guess what their follow up to 9-11 will be. Of course anthrax may or may not have been muslim extremists. You mentioned kidnapping. Yes I agree that would be one place an armed victim could make a difference. The case that of course comes to mind is Richard Pearl who was set up and not grabbed on the street or in his home. Have muslim terrorists engaged in kidnapping people in their homes or in the street and do you see them attempting that in US? Who do you think the muslims would attempt to kidnap in the US and where would they go with them, what would they do with them? In any case what I see is potential bombings in crowded places that are more well planned than most in Isreal, similar to Turkey bombing. Release of chemical and biological agents would be another possibility. I think that in the US they will use more skilled and solid operatives than the "pick up" crews they often use in Isreal. Frankly I don't think the terrorist have the "manpower" in place in the US to go around shooting up malls, etc and will plan for more complex, high death operations. Anyhow, that is my general thinking at this time subject to revision. You seem to hold a different view. What kind of attacks to you envision as likely in the US? And do you think the terrorist have the "manpower" in place to send people out to shoot up malls or strap on explosives ?

Sam Spade
11-20-2003, 08:06 PM
Yes, Muslim groups have gone the kidnapping route, including missionaries in the Philipines and NGO workers in Sudan. Of course, the whole series of hostages in Lebanon is another example. The recent CNN/Al Qaeda tape illustrates some tactics for kidnapping. The victims have largely been symbolic of the "Great Satan"--USMC Colonel, Wall Street Journal reporter, CIA worker, industrial types.

Bombing and boobytraps are traditional staples of all types of terror groups. I doubt that will change, and I doubt that an armed citizen will do anything to stop them.

The DC "snipers" show that huge manpower isn't needed. Two bottom feeders did a credible job of frightening thousands. Add some small numbers of recon, security and logistics, and it could be much more impressive. Mass shootings are another old technique (Vienna airport) that continue today in Israel (suicide gunmen). The shooting outside Langley was similar to this type. We on the scene have the potential to interdict these guys.

Bin Laden has shown a love of the spectacular--big ol' bombings in many different areas. I see him/his organization following along that pattern as long as it's bearing fruit. Other organizations, though, go smaller. For the moment, it's easier for them to go after our assets in theatre than to come here.

As to what I consider most likely--I'm aware of just how our borders are full of holes, and how many people come across. I wouldn't run the risk of humping explosives in, but operators could pick up perfectly adequate firearms here. The Islamic community remains generally insulated from outside scrutiny, and I'm sure that many have left family in the old country that would be hostage for their co-operation. Further, the anarchist/ELF/WTO types have shown a number of tactics suitable for messing up our infrastructure. I'm willing to bet dollars to donuts that the recon phase of the next series of operations is well underway. Look for just the things shown on the CNN tape. The proportions of shootings to kidnappings to bombings, I wouldn't care to guess.

billcameron
11-20-2003, 09:25 PM
Sam,

On kidnapping I agree it is possible, maybe even likely, for Americans aboard. But if a muslim terrorist kidnaps an person(s) in the US, where does he take the victim(s)? I really don't believe they have the ability to take them out of US or probably hide them in US.

In Isreal, which is a small country terrorists have a lot of "cannon fodder". From reading articles some suicide bombers are accompanied by handlers so they don't falter at the last moment. Remember where they send two bomber out and the "stronger" suicide bomber had detonators for both of them, because it was feared the other suicide bomber would fail to detonate his bomb. Now don't get me wrong I think there are terrorist cells in the US. Fact that terrorist organizations had a hand in picking muslim chaplains shows a pretty effective outfit. I doubt if the "cannon fodder" suicide bomber are as available in US as they are in Isreal. I believe the terrorist cells are husbanding their resources for a bigger strike than a suicide bombing attack(s). Plus I believe that use of suicide bombings would result in our intelligence learning the identification of cells within the US. In short I think the terrorist cells do not have a lot of manpower and do not want to expose their organizations thru suicide bombings.

But frankly the lack of activity in a sense worries me. On one hand I hope our people are being effective. But I fear terrorists in US are just lying low waiting for an opportunity for a significant strike.

I agree our immigration and border control is a mess. However, I also realize that the Bush administration does not want to crack down so hard that this is viewed by all muslims, such as those in Turkey, as an attack on islam.

I take it from your comments you believe that the terrorists have quite a bit of manpower already within the US, that would enable them to shoot up malls and utilize suicide bombers. I hope in that regard you are incorrect. I believe the response in the US to a realization that there are a large number of terrorists among us would be a very brutal reaction.

I guess we are all waiting for the "next shoe to drop."

Newcop
11-21-2003, 02:23 PM
I don't believe that suicide bombings are a necessary tactic inside the U.S. yet. In Israel, aren't the suicide bombings a result of the much higher level of security?

I believe that there are terrorists in the U.S. hard core enough to 'martyr' themselves to kill us if they have to. At this point, they probably don't have to.

A group of trained terrorists could probably do a 'better' (higher body count) job at a school, mall, office building, than the Klebold & Harris did at Columbine.

The number of 'bad things' that has been prevented in this country since 9.11.2001 by law enforcement is a large number. The public will never hear about most of these successes either.

B0486
11-27-2003, 06:15 AM
Sources inform me that islamics have been spotted photographing a water treatement control facility.

These sources state teams have been assigned to shadow them back to their domiciles, surveilled 24/7 to document their contacts and movements, cell and landline intercepts technologies used on them, as well as everything being photographed/documented.

Federal agencies are informed as to their activities on a regular basis but these teams are from the private sector. The building is also home base for a few large corporations with lots of funding and they are the ones who picked up on their activities and continue to monitor these people for their own well being.

Brownie

Ted T.
11-27-2003, 08:37 AM
Sometimes the sheeple have to have a few wolves in sheep's clothing to maintain control of the flock.


Bill

Sheep dogs, Bill, sheepdogs. Wolves eat sheep, the dogs kill the wolves. :) :D

Sam Spade
11-27-2003, 12:03 PM
http://customwire.ap.org/dynamic/stories/H/HIGHWAY_SHOOTINGS?SITE=AZPHG&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

COLUMBUS, Ohio (AP) -- More people have reported shots possibly being fired at vehicles along the same stretch of highway where a woman was killed by a gunshot that penetrated a car door, authorities said Thursday.

A law enforcement task force already was investigating the shootings on or near a stretch of Interstate 270, the highway that circles Columbus, and extra police were sent to patrol the area on Thursday.

The first shooting was reported in May and others had come in the past 6 1/2 weeks in the area just south of Columbus. Tuesday's killing of Gail Knisley made a total of nine.
******************
Too soon to comment on motives. But an example of the kind of thing within the capabilities of the armed citizen to interdict.

silat1
11-29-2003, 02:37 AM
Sheep dogs, Bill, sheepdogs. Wolves eat sheep, the dogs kill the wolves. :) :D
Ted,

I was thinking more of the Irish Wolfhounds :cool: :p . I was just quoting some of the thought patterns that I have had to face in my travels within the asian theater.. I have flown through Manila a lot of times and to be honest with you, the security there is better on the inside of the air terminal than it is on the Traffic Control Center as shown by the recent episode where two people took control of the tower and held the operations of the airport hostage for a while... It was an interesting time when it was shown on the local tv. The situation in the asian theater is being taken a little more serious since alqaeda has said that they were going to target allies of the US for the action we are involved with in the Iraq conflict now.. This is the first of things to come within the asian region.

Bill
Defensive Tactics Systems
Guam