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Joe Average
12-03-2004, 06:10 PM
What if a bad guy pulls a gun and obviously intends to shoot someone, maybe even gets a shot off, but his gun jams and he's trying to clear it?

He has obviously shown that he has a deadly weapon, maybe has used it, intends to use it, and is still attempting to do so. But he seems to no longer have the actual ability to actually use it. Would it be best to use something less than a gun on him?

BWayne
12-03-2004, 06:25 PM
Since he has already tried to kill another , and since he is trying to get his weapon back into operation, deadly force is still appropriate. If he threw the gun down and ran of if he just ran off, the threat has ceased and deadly force (or any force) is no longer justified.

If you are close to him, he is wide open for strikes while he is messing around trying to clear jams from his pistol. He has also given you an opening to draw your weapon.

Gecko
12-04-2004, 02:57 AM
It would give me more time to put more bullets in him/her as I shoot him/her to the ground while saying, "This is just not your day, is it?" "Fair play" has no place in a gunfight. Would he/her use something less than deadly force on you if your gun jammed? Once a fight has begun, it has begun and in all likelihood there will be a winner and a loser.

MTS
12-04-2004, 04:52 AM
It would give me more time to put more bullets in him/her as I shoot him/her to the ground while saying, "This is just not your day, is it?"
Which would come back to haunt you in court. Especially in a cross racial shooting.

grnzbra
12-07-2004, 01:57 PM
be careful what you say afterward. When the police arrived, I wouldn't even mention the malfunction.

"He was trying to shoot me with that gun, so I shot him". The cops will realize the gun was jammed, but my lawyer will tell me how to address that.

Gabriel Suarez
12-07-2004, 03:38 PM
Shoot him to the ground - ask no questions - say nothing clever - let your Glock do your talking for you and let your Glock say it with eloquence, efficiency and conviction.

Alma the Younger
12-28-2004, 04:10 PM
Having the BG's weapon malfuction is what I call "Divine Intervention" a.k.a. a blessing from heaven and nothing offends God as much as ingratitude. Being a firm believer in the moto, "Pray as though everything depends upon God, act as though everything depends upon you," I'd feel it a sin not to shoot the guy!

If he's trained anywhere close to me...he can tap and rack ten times faster than I could explain the action. If I had a malfuction, I'd still be in the fight, so I'd consider him still a threat as well.

If I ever get into a gunfight, that prayer will be on my lips!

419!

battleground
12-28-2004, 06:24 PM
He still has intent, means, and motive and he is trying to shoot again. Your have the benefit of an interruption to his plans. Use it.

He already escalated to a gunfight. You are the one reacting to him shooting and you are attempting to save innocent lives. Just make sure you are not shooting at someone who is defending himself (meaning, you really can tell this is a bad guy).

Anthony
01-17-2005, 09:45 AM
Good answers all, as one would expect on WT.
My 2 cents worth now.
You make a mental decision to react/fight whatever. You draw & present your handgun, and take up first pressure. All this happened of course in a second. Will you really notice a malfunction on his part at this stage of the game ? He has been shooting at someone, still has the gun in hand, although it hasn't gone 'pop' for what.......a second or two ! You're in a fight. Finnish it.
Somewhat different from him dropping the gun and running away.
What was it Gabe posted once ? Something about "the last day for giving up was yesterday" ? :D
And later when being questioned ? "His gun was jammed ! REALLY" ? Must have happened just as I shot then".
Regards,
Anthony.

MDH
01-18-2005, 01:32 AM
I'm not that familiar with the civil issues. The Supreme court has laid it out for LEO as ABILITY-OPORTUNITY-INTENT. When all 3 collide, and you have no other reasonable recourse, then deadly force is allowed. Never demanded.

The BG has already demonstrated all 3. However, you can not shoot him because of what he has just done. That is retalliation. A bad place to go.

You shoot to PREVENT the next shot. In this case the BG has lost his ability with a jammed gun but, he is actively trying to reacquire the ability. If you have no other reasonable recourse you could shoot. (you are never required to return fire although it is usually prudent).

While he's jacking around with his gun try yelling at him to "Drop the gun". It would be a good thing for your legal survival. (Who knows maybe he just might!)

You can be 100 percent right in what you do but, say one wrong thing and you are now wrong. Any husband can attest to this concept.

One of the police chief associations (I can't remeber which) put out an article that reported that some of the chemicals released during a fight or flight shooting incident can take up to 72 hours to metabolize out of your system. Lord help you if you try to make a statement 24-48 after a shooting. It's probably not going to match up with the actual sequence of events. It will appear as if you are lying.

Ask for a lawyer. I teach my officers to request a trip to the hospital for a medical eval. Even if they do not appear injured (these are nasty chemicals that are released). All of this buys time. If you have an unscrupulous detective or DA you will need the time to decompress. While these nasty chemicals are running thru us, they do funny things with memories, time lines and sequences.

WD_40
01-18-2005, 12:37 PM
My opinion assumes the following: The BG has fired a shot and his weapon has malfunctioned. He is trying to clear it and is not running away or tossing down his weapon.

This is just me, but while I am a proponent of verbalization, once he's got his gun out and already fired a shot, he's already ahead of me and I'm in a bad spot. I am not going to waste time with words, only focus on the task at hand, which is to put him down.

Great points on after-action procedures, btw. I'll remember the request to go to the hospital. Very good tip.


I'm not that familiar with the civil issues. The Supreme court has laid it out for LEO as ABILITY-OPORTUNITY-INTENT. When all 3 collide, and you have no other reasonable recourse, then deadly force is allowed. Never demanded.

The BG has already demonstrated all 3. However, you can not shoot him because of what he has just done. That is retalliation. A bad place to go.

You shoot to PREVENT the next shot. In this case the BG has lost his ability with a jammed gun but, he is actively trying to reacquire the ability. If you have no other reasonable recourse you could shoot. (you are never required to return fire although it is usually prudent).

While he's jacking around with his gun try yelling at him to "Drop the gun". It would be a good thing for your legal survival. (Who knows maybe he just might!)

You can be 100 percent right in what you do but, say one wrong thing and you are now wrong. Any husband can attest to this concept.

One of the police chief associations (I can't remeber which) put out an article that reported that some of the chemicals released during a fight or flight shooting incident can take up to 72 hours to metabolize out of your system. Lord help you if you try to make a statement 24-48 after a shooting. It's probably not going to match up with the actual sequence of events. It will appear as if you are lying.

Ask for a lawyer. I teach my officers to request a trip to the hospital for a medical eval. Even if they do not appear injured (these are nasty chemicals that are released). All of this buys time. If you have an unscrupulous detective or DA you will need the time to decompress. While these nasty chemicals are running thru us, they do funny things with memories, time lines and sequences.