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Coops
11-21-2004, 01:07 PM
Guys

There are quite a few threads going about this here fighting thingy. I'm not looking towards ego, nor am I looking for Martial Arts expertise.

I'm talking as a person. What is important in your view, in creating a working and functioning method for people to defend themselves, with and without the use of firearms.

I am looking for the knowledge and the tricks that keep peoples arse out of the mire.

Al Lipscomb
11-21-2004, 01:19 PM
I would say that the first thing is attitude. To understand that you are not going out to start a fight or get into trouble. Understand that there are dangers and that you need to be able to respond to them. In the event of trouble finding you, being willing to do what is needed to win.

michael
11-21-2004, 02:42 PM
I agree. With my advanced age :eek: , I am long past fighting over stupid things like slights to my ego, a parking space, a traffic incident or other such nonsense. However, I will fight to the death to defend myself, my family, friends or an innocent that is being attacked through no fault of their own. Some things are worth fighting for, and others are just match fights brought on by an overabundance of self-worth.

Q-ball
11-21-2004, 07:27 PM
Like Al stated, it should start with mindset. Doing whatever it takes to win. Michael also hit on important note of not getting slighted by stupid people. I want to have that feeling that I did everything humanly possible to not get into a confrontation. When that criteria is met in my mind I feel comfortable with becoming an animal and fighting like a Spartan.

DaveJames
11-21-2004, 07:51 PM
Have the will to win,Know going into one that you are going to get hurt,but can survie, and to use any tool at hand to make it "Quick,Fast,and Over in a Hurry" and remember "KISS"

Keep it Simple Stupid.

unstpabl1
11-21-2004, 08:36 PM
I think fitness is sometimes really under valued in discussions of self defense."Fatigue makes cowards of us all".You can have the mindset and the balls,but if you don't have the wind ,your screwed.Also,Coops as you alluded to in the Aikido thread,I think you develope that won't quit mindset through the (fitness) training.
Happy Holidays
Mike

RES
11-22-2004, 02:25 AM
Coops:

Great question, and one we should all be continually considering.

The way I see it, there is a fundamental shift in behavior that must occur, before a common person can be truly 'prepared' for personal combat. Although I could not succinctly describe all of the differences between 'fighters' and 'commoners', I think I can adequately describe the few vital differences thus:

- AWARENESS: The vast majority of people are simply not aware enough of their surroundings or what potential threats lie around them. Training in visual cues, observation skills, and precautionary measures, is essential. In other words, the student must be trained to identify and avoid (if possible) problems before they occur.

- CONFRONTATIONALISM (whew, big word): Many people are not prepared for physical contact, especially loud, sudden, and violent personal contact; if such contact is threatened or inflicted upon them, they will freeze up, panic, stop thinking, etc. The best preparation for this (within the realm of training) is to actually engage in reaction training: Bounce the students around with air-shields and foam bats; teach them ukemi (break-fall techniques); and have them spar and grapple with other students and instructors. Occasional surprise attacks in class, 'woofer' training, and other 'shock value' training techniques are also a good idea, but must be applied properly, as a haphazard use (or overuse) of them could be counter-productive. Remember, it is 'reaction training'; the intent is not to cause a heart attack, but to develop the student's autonomous reactions.

- DISCIPLINE: (I'm basically going to reiterate what most of you have already said here) Discipline is crucial. Without a disciplined mind, it is not possible to achieve a 'fighting mindset', or push one's self to maintain a level of training; and, when the chips are down, an undisciplined individual will likely be unable to keep fighting, especially if injured. Discipline is built through many avenues, including hard physical training, repetitive practice of seemingly mundane tasks ('military discipline'), lecture and motivation, and so forth. Training builds discipline, and that discipline causes the person to continue training.

Once these three concepts are planted in the student and can begin to root themselves, teaching the student to utilize techniques or tools is a relatively easy thing. These concepts will continue to take root and develop through the course of training.

The actual techniques or tools taught, are (in my opinion) less relevant than the development of these qualities.

EDIT: To rephrase a sentence.

Coops
11-22-2004, 01:57 PM
Can I just say at that I am heartened by you guys. Nobody has mentioned any physical technique yet. I am pleased to see that the 'warrior mindset' is foremost in your minds.

Unstpabl1: thanks for picking up on the minset throught hard training. For us guys (people like me)who are not from a military background, it is important that we understand and work through pain and discomfort, especially as our only aim is betterment of the self. That is not an easy task.

Dave: I think KISS was written for me, if you know what I mean:~)

michael: I know it's all in a word and I know this is semantics, but please don't fight to the death. Fight for the lives you are protecting. Death may happen, but not when you're on the job. You are too ferocious to die anyway:~)

Oh, and talking about traffic incidents, don't you still get annoyed when someone signals left but stays in the middle of the road, or is that something that only happens on the narrow roads of the UK.

Roudndyesamourai: I do like Dave Grossman's concept of sheep, wolves and sheepdogs. I think that would fit into your idea of how to create the person we are talking about.

Paco
11-22-2004, 03:04 PM
No I think michael had it right when he said being prepared to fight to the death. I think it is important to come to terms with that. That you might die fighting to defend family, country or innocents. This is fundamental for the warrior mindset.

If one has not looked hard at and accepted that possibility, how prepared can one be to take the necessary actions that might be called for?

All the more reason to not quarrel over petty issues as michael also noted.

michael
11-22-2004, 05:04 PM
What I meant was that we need to be prepared to fight to the death, not that this is our goal. I have no desire to come to an early demise, but am fully prepared to do so to defend me and mine. I would much prefer his early demise, not my own.;)

And Paco has it correctly--we do need to come to terms with this, which goes directly to mindset. We must be fully prepared BEFORE becoming involved in a fight to take it as far as we must to win. There is no other option, and if we are not prepared to take it this far, we should stay at home and not carry weapons. In this day of terrorists and idiots, the very real possilbility exists that we may have to sacrifice ourselves to save others. I have come to terms with that through my faith and if that is my role to play, then so be it. God instilled in me long ago to be a warrior and protector, and I take that very seriously.

RES
11-22-2004, 05:28 PM
Coops:

Thank you!

I'd like to expand on the "sheep, wolves, and sheepdogs" comment, because I think you're absolutely right (and I think we're sympatico on this).

I think that comment was made a few hundred years before Grossman, and he stole it LOL. However, if it's one he uses, then maybe he's not entirely a lost cause.

I, too, like the "sheep, wolves, sheepdogs" analogy. It is also one I use in my dojo, when speaking on several subjects, 'mindset' being one of them.

Look at a wolf, and look at a sheepdog. Biologically, they are almost identical. Physically, the only real difference is cosmetic. What makes them different? MINDSET.

They are a perfect demonstration of my signature line.

Ninor
11-22-2004, 06:20 PM
After over 30 years of martial arts and thousands of fights as a bouncer, bodyguard and military police officer I boiled fighting down to three things. Techniques, Tactics and Mindset. (You can read the analogy I used in the post under "Articles" if you've got time).

Mindset on its own won't do you any good if you don't have valid techniques. That's why scores of people die every year jumping in to raging waters to rescue a drowing victim. They had great mindset but poor technique and they end up drowning as well.

Technique on it's own, without the correct mindset won't serve you well either. It's why most cops will tell you the "average" black belt will get his arse kicked by the "average" streetfighter. It's simple math really...the black belt has only one thing in his favour i.e. technical ability. The streetfighter has two things going for him...great tactics and great mindset (for what he's doing).

Whatever system/style you undertake, if you want to be able to defend yourself make sure the instructor understands the above and teaches all three. And remember, although some systems lend themselves more to the self defense (by eliminating the fluff and art forms that others are trying to preserve) it is the singer that matters, and not the song!!

hope that helps.

DaveJames
11-23-2004, 08:30 AM
Well, heres one for Michael..

" YOU CAN SEND YOUR SOUL TO JESUS,CAUSE YOUR ASS IS MINE NOW DIP SHIT""

Famous words by Sgt.Major Root :D

michael
11-23-2004, 10:44 AM
Well, heres one for Michael..

" YOU CAN SEND YOUR SOUL TO JESUS,CAUSE YOUR ASS IS MINE NOW DIP SHIT""

Famous words by Sgt.Major Root :D
:D LOL!

But in the end, the soul is all that matters.;)

Coops
11-23-2004, 01:34 PM
What ninor says is right, in fact what everyone says is right in my view. Although from a motivational viewpoint I would prefer to aim to fight to the death of my opponent, than accept that I may die in this encounter. I certainly would look at the possibility of my death. In the loooong ago past, I was fortunate that I was able to look back and think 'I nearly died there,' and the six months in a hospital bed seemed small potatoes:~)

I've notice that these days when people talk about mindset and near death incidents, the main thoughts dwell towards 'I have made peace with my maker' or 'I have prepared myself for death if needed.'

Oh no you haven't!! You are warriors. You have a full life and a wonderful family. That is what being a true warrior brings to you. It makes you a secure and solid citizen with a loving family. You are one of the people that people would aspire to be like.

Don't think that you are willing to die, because it might make you accept death. When he has stuck you and you suffer a pneumothorax as you lie in the dirt, the only thing which will make you take that walk in the sun with your grandchild is your belief that you will fight and prevail!

You should not fight to the death - you should fight to live.

It's only a small point and I'm sorry. There are a great deal of people here with a great deal of experience and knowledge.

Please, waddy think of my view?

Coops
11-23-2004, 01:48 PM
Roundeyesamourai

I have had border collie sheepdogs for the past thirty years and no other dogs. They are THE most intelligent animals on the planet (and that includes us). To be honest, they train the handler, not the other way around.

Sheepdogs are wolves with the kill taken out of them. Grossman told it right and I would aspire to be like he says.

As a motivational tool for LEOs, the sheepdog analogy is good.

I would be interested in any other sources for the same ideolegy from the past.

RES
11-23-2004, 02:33 PM
Coops:

Excellent points.

"Shoot To Live" is a term which was used extensively in the firearms training program of the police agency for which I previously worked. It's also a key tenet of my own philosophy, and something I impart on my students at the dojo.

"Prepared for death", as you stated, is a falsehood, except in the circumstance of someone who has no reason to live. Take W.B. Yeats. When he wrote "An Irish Airman Forsees His Death", this was the mindset he was describing: Someone who is fighting because they have no reason to live, and who expects to die.

Obviously, there are times when a warrior must die. Those warriors who do meet this sort of end, do so with the understanding that their death will be of benefit to others, or toward that goal. This isn't "preparation to die", this is "preparation to serve", since, as James Williams frequently says, the purpose of a warrior is to serve others, because the warrior understands the intrinsic value of everyone around him.

This, I believe, is well-illustrated (again) by the sheepdog analogy; if I might modify your statement, sheepdogs are wolves with the malice taken out of them. They do what they do, out of a sense of loyalty and service to the sheep and the shepard; and, if called upon, they will fight (and kill), but do so with the type of virtuous intention I describe in my signature line.

Dwelling on death, whether it be the enemies' or one's own, is a self-defeating exercise. The point of life, is to live well! The purpose of the warrior, is to ensure that others have the opportunity to live well; our reward for this, is that we have the ability to live even more fully, because we can understand the human condition better than most.

Should my life come to an end in a violent way, I won't be thinking "Well, I knew this was going to happen." I'll be thinking, "I have lived well, and now someone else will have the gift of living well."

EDIT TO ADD: For earlier sheepdog references, you need only to delve into the literature of your own nation; it is replete with romantic notions of them.

B0486
11-23-2004, 03:01 PM
Knowing when it is time to take it to them and not waiting to have it brought to you, having the skills [ tricks down pat ] to do so, and not stopping until it's over.

Remaining calm, observant to see the whole picture and not just the obvious threat, and being preemptive in nature when it's believed the altercation can not or will not be avoided no matter what you do.

Thats observation to underdstand the potential threat levels; mindset to take it to them with extreme prejudice, getting a plan in your mind of how it might go down and tecnique/ability to get it done as soon as possible.

Learned this the hard way a few times unfortunately attempting to not be an animal after mustering out of the military. Once it cost me a broken jaw that was wired for 6 weeks once. Had to kick it into overdrive to regain control on the second guy who clocked me from behind while I wasn't paying attention.

Since then, I've been more preemptive in nature. Seems to work for me.

Robin Brown

michael
11-23-2004, 09:13 PM
Coops,

I guess the difference in viewpoint, at least for me, comes from my faith. Obviously I have no desire to speed along the process of death, but I do believe that one must be fully prepared to face it if it comes. I will certainly fight to kill my enemy and preserve my life and others, but have come to terms with the fact that I may die in the process. This is not "dwelling" on death, on the contrary I very rarely think about it, merely being aware that it may happen.As Jeff Cooper once said, you cannot anticipate specifically, but you can anticipate generally. I have been in many life and death struggles and never once during them did I worry one iota about dying. If it is my time to die, then the good Lord will take me when He is ready. This is not a "self-defeating exercise" as suggested in the earlier post. On the contrary, it is quite freeing in that it is not a concern. I will fight with all the gusto within me to survive and will never give up, but at the same time I am not concerned about dying. If it comes, it is beyond my control and I will be in a much better place.

RES
11-24-2004, 02:14 AM
Michael:

Based on your post, I take it to mean that you believe I was detracting from your viewpoint.

Rather the opposite!


...it is quite freeing in that it is not a concern...

Exactly the point, you don't dwell on it. Some people do, and they are already dead.


If it comes, it is beyond my control and I will be in a much better place.

Ditto.


Obviously I have no desire to speed along the process of death

Again, ditto. Some people, however, do have such a desire, and it was of these people, that I was speaking.

----------

"I KNOW that I shall meet my fate
Somewhere among the clouds above;
Those that I fight I do not hate,
Those that I guard I do not love;
My county is Kiltartan Cross,
My countrymen Kiltartan's poor,
No likely end could bring them loss
Or leave them happier than before.
Nor law, nor duty bade me fight,
Nor public men, nor cheering crowds,
A lonely impulse of delight
Drove to this tumult in the clouds;
I balanced all, brought all to mind,
The years to come seemed waste of breath,
A waste of breath the years behind
In balance with this life, this death."

-William Butler Yeats, "An Irish Airman Forsees His Death"

Paco
11-24-2004, 04:46 AM
Whoa! The original Samurai dwelled SOOO much on their own death that they adopted the "body of a rock" philosophy - almost becoming inanimate objects focused on making "the cut". Blending Zen meditation and their own ancient religions. When they took any concern whatsoever for their own death out of the equation, they became that much more unstoppable. Not all rose to that challenge equally.

Something similiar has been true of many other warrior cultures. Spartans. Vikings. etc etc

BIG BIG difference between fearing you'll die and being prepared to die. "Dwelling" might be in the eye of the beholder? To be prepared, one must dwell just a bit on such an important issue mustn't one?

michael
11-24-2004, 06:17 AM
Roundeyesamurai,

I'm sorry if I misunderstood your post--too much coffee and too little sleep!;)

Coops
11-24-2004, 06:17 AM
Coops,

I guess the difference in viewpoint, at least for me, comes from my faith. Obviously I have no desire to speed along the process of death, but I do believe that one must be fully prepared to face it if it comes. I will certainly fight to kill my enemy and preserve my life and others, but have come to terms with the fact that I may die in the process. This is not "dwelling" on death, on the contrary I very rarely think about it, merely being aware that it may happen.

I think semantics is playing its part here. I agree with everything you have said, so it must be. From your experiences in life you have been able to look at the possibility of death and are able to pigeon hole it so it doesn't jump out at the wrong moment, i.e. when in action.

Thus, you would be too busy operating at the time to give it the slightest thought. You have 'taken care of business' prior. Am near the truth?

michael
11-24-2004, 06:46 AM
I think semantics is playing its part here. I agree with everything you have said, so it must be. From your experiences in life you have been able to look at the possibility of death and are able to pigeon hole it so it doesn't jump out at the wrong moment, i.e. when in action.

Thus, you would be too busy operating at the time to give it the slightest thought. You have 'taken care of business' prior. Am near the truth?
Yes sir, you're there!;)

RES
11-24-2004, 10:48 AM
Coops, Michael:

Coops is right, there is quite a bit of semantics we're dancing around here (myself included).

Coops' reply to Michael hit it right on the head; death is to be pigeonholed in order to keep it under control (and, as a sidenote, under "What Is Important", this is a good exemplar of "discipline" being important, specifically, self-discipline).

I think the essential sticking point in these last few posts, has been in the ideal each of us has of what constitutes a warrior mentality. For me, that ideal is one of optimism and love of life; for others, the joie de vivre is neither important nor unimportant; and for a few, that same joie de vivre demonstrates a "lack of will to win". I think, once we each understand which of those three categories we fit into, and express that, the semantic barrier we've been experiencing will vanish.

As an aside:

Paco:

I know. I chose this name as an internet name years ago, because "samurai" was the only word I could think of, that was publicly recognized as denoting a *serious* martial artist. I added "Roundeye" to the beginning of it, to denote that I don't hold to all of the ideals that the samurai espoused; and I came up with "Roundeyesamurai", a catchy name that (in gross terms) demonstrates what I do, and is easy to remember because it rhymes.

Paco
11-24-2004, 12:44 PM
Hey Roundeyesamurai - it's a great handle! More rationale than mine which is only what the Spanish teacher called me in elementary school because Jose (I'm a Joe) was already taken by another kid earlier in the alphabet!

In the book "The Way and the Power" by Frederick Lovret (who was the head of the Japanese martial arts org I belonged to for a few years) he described the Samurai as a highly efficient butcher - being rather non-emotional about their whole business. It's an really great read which I would strongly recommend. Used to be available from Palladin Press. May still be for all I know.

RES
11-24-2004, 01:32 PM
Paco:

I've read it, and he's right.

I frequently make a distinction between "warrior" and "soldier"; the distinction being, that a warrior's ultimate aim is the preservation of life, whereas the soldier's, is the destruction of life.

I've been a soldier, in this regard; I am infintely more proud of my current status as a warrior.

This begs the question, of course: Are all members of the military, soldiers? Or are some of them, warriors? In fact, are there any soldiers at all in our nation's military today? I, for one, see the shift in our nation's armed forces away from "soldiering" and toward "warriordom", and I am heartened. The true warrior is, at his center, benevolent, as I believe modern military men and women to be.

To my thinking, the samurai (or the majority of them, anyway) were not warriors. They were killers, without conscience or remorse; they were devoid of life.

They were little bamboo soldiers.

MTS
11-24-2004, 02:27 PM
Whoa! The original Samurai dwelled SOOO much on their own death that they adopted the "body of a rock" philosophy - almost becoming inanimate objects focused on making "the cut". Blending Zen meditation and their own ancient religions. When they took any concern whatsoever for their own death out of the equation, they became that much more unstoppable. Not all rose to that challenge equally.

Something similiar has been true of many other warrior cultures. Spartans. Vikings. etc etc

BIG BIG difference between fearing you'll die and being prepared to die. "Dwelling" might be in the eye of the beholder? To be prepared, one must dwell just a bit on such an important issue mustn't one?
Doc Holiday was a feared fighter even though he was dying of "Consumption" (TB) and it was either Wyatt Earp or Bat Masterson who said that he could not beat the average 14 year old boy in a fist fight and probably was not all that skilled with a gun.

He knew he was a goner and decided to drink, whore, and gamble to the end. OTOH if he was killed in a fight it did not matter to him but the other person cared if they lived or died.

RES
11-24-2004, 05:42 PM
Matt:

The deer hunting around Rochester here is fantastic, there are almost more deer than hunters (and everybody and his brother hunts up here). In fact, depending on how many deer are taken this season, the County may be holding another bait-and-shoot in the spring in Durand Eastman Park.

EDIT TO ADD: The area of Monroe, Wayne, Livingston, and Ontario Counties, is always overrun with deer, so if you're looking for a good place to hunt, come on up. One caveat, this area is shotgun and revolver only, we're about 60 miles from either of the rifle zones.

RES
11-24-2004, 10:30 PM
Wow, good buddy.
Sounds great, but that is a long ways from Queens county.


The further from Queens, the better! LMAO

Coops
11-25-2004, 12:53 AM
I have known that semantics was a problem between English people speaking english and American people speaking english for a few years. But it was brought home to me by Matt in Poland, when he started arguing about tomatoes and potatoes :)

Coops (which ios my handle because it's part of my name and I've not got a good memory. Every time I write it, my whole life comes flooding back :p )

RES
11-25-2004, 01:40 AM
Coops:

George Bernard Shaw said, "The British and The Americans are two peoples separated by a common language", and he was right! LOL

As I said in a previous post (and which I'll expand on here), I think part of the miscommunication of semantics, is the fact that we all use semantics to allude to what we're thinking, but don't really want to say (or don't know how to express).

In other words, we're each stuck in a perpetual rut of knowing what we're thinking and feeling, but without having a good way to express it clearly. Sometimes this comes from discomfort; sometimes, from "linguistic ineptitude"; sometimes, because what we want to express, can't really be expressed in words, but must be expressed in deeds.

Take sexuality, for example: When is the last time you had a conversation about sex, that didn't consist mostly of innuendo, or humor, or filled with "ya'know"s; or that didn't consist entirely of scientific terminology? This is a good example of a combination of discomfort, lack of expressive language, and (most importantly), the fact that some things are better understood when felt, than when said.

I think that there are alot of parallels between sexuality and warriordom; not the least of which, is the fact that there are some things about being a warrior, that are better understood when experienced, rather than when talked about. Likewise, some things about our own experiences, are often uncomfortable to talk about (or we believe that they will be uncomfortable for the listener); and sometimes, we just don't have the vocabulary needed to convey certain ideas, so we just do the best we can (and are frequently misunderstood, because of it).

Hence, my ultimate recommendation to all instructors:

When in doubt, don't tell them; SHOW them.

Coops
11-29-2004, 12:56 PM
We are truly two nations seperated by a common language, but that doesn't stop us trying.

That fact has got me into so much trouble on forums and e-mails, you have no idea. But over the years I have met some of the people which I have had those electric arguments with. Now we're the best of friends. All it took was one meeting and from that day forward each knew what the other meant.

I have been a good friend of Marc MacYoung's (some call him 'Animal') and a member of his forum,for quite a few years, but it wasn't until I started smacking his people about at a barbeque last year, that they really understood me:~)

It seems that violence is easily recognisable all over the world :D