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View Full Version : Why do the Feds choose Sig over Glock?



BILLYBOB
11-01-2004, 01:21 PM
I see that most federal officers and agencies carry the 357 Sigs! R they not fans of the Glocks. Most local officers carry full size Glocks.

Just wanted to hear your opinions on this.

Erich
11-01-2004, 02:00 PM
Bigger budgets. You should see how much federal judges get for triviata like decor. :rolleyes:

I have to say, the SIG-Sauers have crisper triggers and a better lock-up than the Glocks, so they do seem to be more precise when it comes to shot-placement.

Paco
11-01-2004, 02:02 PM
I dunno about that premise. DEA and FBI are pretty big too and they issue Glocks.

coma
11-01-2004, 03:39 PM
SIG's are my favorite pistols. And after talking with some cops near my home town. Most of them like SIG's or Berretta better than Glock. Some said the same things I do, The Glock grip angle just does not point well for me, the Glock trigger is not great, and the glock "safe system" is not as safe as traditional DA/SA or DAO in high stress situations.

Also the Mass State Police use SIG P229R, P226R, P226st, P220 r and st. Depending on Department and or Officer peference. They can't be all wrong.

B0486
11-01-2004, 04:20 PM
coma

They can't be all wrong.

One could differ with that statement. Not all of them get to have a say in the choice of their weapons, only a few need to be wrong.

I have it good authority that they have been wrong before on many things.:rolleyes:

Robin Brown

jc2
11-01-2004, 05:26 PM
From what I've read and seen only two relatively small agencies carry the 357 SIG (USSS and FAM). I'd say the .40 S&W was the predominant federal LE cartridge with the 9x19 running second--particularly if you count CID, AFOSI, etc. Unless I read it wrong or missed something, only HK (and not SIGarms) got the 357 SIG in the recent DHS contract.

Paco
11-01-2004, 05:38 PM
I don't think any of them are wrong in their choices. They all seem to be good quality remote drills.

davidz71
11-01-2004, 06:34 PM
I've seen FBI Agents who use our range with Glock 22 & 23, Sig 228 and Springfield Armory 1911A1 pistols. The highlight was when they let me shoot several boxes of 10 mm Auto through an H&K MP5. Sweet!!!!!!!!!!!

7677
11-01-2004, 06:37 PM
Don't forget the huge numbers of Hk USP40c being issued and planned to be issued by Feds under the DOT/DHS bids.
David,
They were issuing the H&K at to INS inspectors at FLETC the last time I was down there the transition over to ICE has been full of pit falls and the old Customs guys still have Glocks.

BILLYBOB,
I'd have to say that federal agencies are evenly divided between Glocks and Sigs. Glock agencies, FBI, DEA, Customs and US Marshals.

P.D.
11-01-2004, 06:43 PM
Customs DID have DAO Beretta 96s issued to them. I thought Glocks were only approved optional carry.

7677
11-01-2004, 06:57 PM
For the past 5 years Customs has issued G19 to Special Agents and G17 to Inspectors.

DaveJames
11-01-2004, 09:19 PM
Its all just Politics, and budget, Just about all the big Federal groups have an issue weapon and then a list of approved opt carry.

6 of one,half dozen of the other. This year its SIG's next who knows, DEA agent told me once that they change every couple of years , just to throw off the BG's .

Justin_P
11-06-2004, 06:50 AM
Bigger budgets. You should see how much federal judges get for triviata like decor. :rolleyes:

I have to say, the SIG-Sauers have crisper triggers and a better lock-up than the Glocks, so they do seem to be more precise when it comes to shot-placement.

The fed's aren't precise, so the sig wouldn't be proper for them.

Erik
11-07-2004, 06:31 PM
All sorts of brands in holsters at FLETC. Everything from P7s to Sigmas. Glock is well represented. Arguably the most popular from what I've seen.

pete f
11-08-2004, 10:42 AM
It has been my experience that what is issued or approved has more to do with:
A. favorite gun of the head armed official. The civilian appointed authority will usually defer to the wishes of the professional LE type under him/her when it comes to equipment issues.
B. Who wrote the purchasing requirements. These can be written to include or exclude almost any weapon, or vehicle,or laptop etc.
C. Politics, Is there a political reason to exclude/include a particular manufacturer. I was involved years ago with a Political official who insisted all vehicles were non-Fords products because he had had crappy result with a local Ford dealer in his home state. I am sure samething happens in fed or state procurement.
D. who is hungrier. A few years ago SIG was selling pistols all up with as I remember 3 mags and training ammo for under $200 A POP to a state agency because they had lost about three big contracts in a row and needed to get a few contracts. If I did my math right, the current cost to the HSA for a Glock 17 is $211.71 but that is total contract divided by total units, cost per piece, excluding service and spares would be much lower.

davidz71
11-12-2004, 06:31 PM
Our department still uses revolvers and over the years purchasing has gone back and forth between S & W and Ruger. There have been 2 or 3 major players in the TN. area that have always been involved in bids for each weapon make. Sometimes one underbid the other who then got even the next year with a winning bid. We never know what to expect.

As a shocker, several years ago we phased out many of our Rugers and wanted to stay with the S&W mdl. 64 or 67. A purchase order went out for bids and it came back that we could not order just one make. The bid went back out and somehow Taurus won the contract. We still can't figure out how that happened and couldn't do anything about it. We now have over 30 Taurus revolvers, some of which have been plagued with cylinders that turn but the hammer won't cycle. Glad I don't carry one of those things.

Group9
11-13-2004, 05:53 AM
Its all just Politics, and budget, Just about all the big Federal groups have an issue weapon and then a list of approved opt carry.

6 of one,half dozen of the other. This year its SIG's next who knows, DEA agent told me once that they change every couple of years , just to throw off the BG's .

Exactly. There are a lot of reasons why federal agencies select a particular brand of pistol that have nothing to do with the particular attributes of one model over another.

jnb01
11-14-2004, 07:33 PM
I suspect you will see more HK USPcs enter Federal Duty each year and the .45 USPc is now being entered as the new SEAL issue pistol as well.

David, are the SEAL's replacing the P226 entirely with the USPc .45?

Also, what makes you suspect a higher number of USPc's entering Federal service? Is it prehaps more competitive prices with the new U.S. factory?

CarlosDJackal
11-15-2004, 07:43 AM
I wonder if Glock's plan to build a factory here in the US is going to make a difference in future Government RFPs. Of course, that assinine second-strike capability will probably trump them everytime.

Sleuth
11-18-2004, 12:35 PM
I have been on the edge of weapons procurment in the Federal Gov., and personalities play a big part. Someone gets the ear of the boss, and all of a sudden this brand or that gets chosen. I never saw any bad guns get issued, but some of the choices were "odd".

Negative example: A survervisor has a ND with a 1911, and says "if I'm ever in charge, no one will carry those unsafe guns." Years later, he become the boss, and we become "retroactivly incompetent" to carry SA autos. And so it goes. I never felt undergunned, and would not with any of the guns listed for DHS.

BILLYBOB
11-19-2004, 09:45 AM
I have been on the edge of weapons procurment in the Federal Gov., and personalities play a big part. Someone gets the ear of the boss, and all of a sudden this brand or that gets chosen. I never saw any bad guns get issued, but some of the choices were "odd".

Negative example: A survervisor has a ND with a 1911, and says "if I'm ever in charge, no one will carry those unsafe guns." Years later, he become the boss, and we become "retroactivly incompetent" to carry SA autos. And so it goes. I never felt undergunned, and would not with any of the guns listed for DHS.

Are full-size weapons routine for on duty officers? I've never really seen an officer with a subcompact sidearm.

Sleuth
11-19-2004, 10:52 AM
We, as investigators, were issued S&W 2.5" M19 .357's in the days of BRT (Big Round Things = Revolvers). Then we got issued 5 shot M60's (.38 Spl [with 110g +P+ loads]). Then we were issued S&W 9mm 6906 compact pistols. So yes, we were issued small, but not sub-compact, guns. When I retired in 1997, the sub-compacts were just becoming popular.

We could also carry personally owned guns - I carried a custom made LaFrance NOVA, 9mm, smaller than a PPK, Single Action. At least until this (otherwise great) guy got to sit in the big chair and outlaw SA autos.

jeffa
11-20-2004, 09:37 AM
In the Border Patrol since 1995 we have been carrying the Beretta 96D Brigadiers (sp?). A few Sig P229s have also been sprinkled in. All weapons have their problems, especially when you shoot hot 155 grain ammo. The Berettas had a lot of problems in the beginning and have been for the most part worked out, The frames are still garbage and the dust covers continually crack but it doesn't have a negative effect on the weapon itself.

We are changing over to the Compact H&K in .40. The H&K will and does have a few problems but like anything else wether it be guns, gear or vehicles, no matter how good you think you have made something we will find the faults.

I think the H&K LEO trigger is the worst trigger out there. I would rather have a long Beretta trigger pull than the crappy take up which causes big time slamming that the H&K offers. YES, you can get used to anything and I have gotten used to the H&K LEO trigger, but I shoot a lot. The average agent shoots four times a year and the H&K LEO trigger is a marksmanship nightmare.

So as always whatever they give us we will use and gladly break.

Nanuk
11-20-2004, 09:56 PM
Jeffa,
Thats interesting. I always hated the Beretta 96D. I have been carring my H&K for 2 years I have had no problems at all. I shoot IDPA with it also, so it gets shot alot. I really like the LEM trigger. I do shoot other pistols better, but this one is TOTALLY reliable. :D

jeffa
11-21-2004, 06:37 AM
Nanuk - with the few H&Ks in the field so far we have had a few problems with the magazine release breaking, recoil springs breaking and we are on the third firing pin design change. The first two have a tendancy to crack and break.

The problems will be worked out and nothing is perfect. After all the European guns are all essentially designed around the 9mm and then upgraded to .40 cal for the US market.

It would be nice to go to a dependable, more controllable US made .45 design, but as I read earlier, somebody that eventually made it to the top couldn't or wouldn't practice and learn how to properly use their firearm and now the rest of us suffer because of them.

If we made more stringent firearms paramaters and made the jobs contingent upon performance we could cut the dead weight, make people more responsible, expect more out of them and maybe receive a better weapon or give a choice of weapons. This would at least allow people to carry the weapon that they personally feel confident with.

I think the H&K is a step up from the Beretta, minus the trigger which I have gotten used to, but I would prefer the full size not compact.