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View Full Version : Found any good training instruction out there?



SMDS141
09-27-2003, 02:16 PM
Just wondering what kind of info/videos/books have crossed your path lately?
I just recently purchased "Jim Grover's Combatives". Other than Gabe, Jim Grover's work is the only other I'll buy sight unseen. If you don't have all of Gabe's works get them, you're doing yourself a disservice not to have the knowledge he's imparting. Ditto for Jim Grover aka Kelly McCain.

M700
09-27-2003, 06:59 PM
I'm a working street cop. For the past three years I've been working out with Sifu Joseph Simonet.

His videotapes are available through Paladin Press. They're great training resources. I like to watch his "slam set" video, then turn to my own Mook Jong training dummy and repeat the set.

The guy is incredible. At nearly 50 years old, he moves like lightning and benches 300+ pounds. He's taught me some great stuff, very useful on the street. He designed a custom training program for me - and it's paid off a number of times over the past few years. I highly recommend his videos - or get to one of his training camps.

http://www.kifightingconcepts.com

Regards, Guy

V42
09-27-2003, 07:54 PM
People I have personal experience with:

I have most of Jim Grover (Kelly McCann's) tapes. I've also had the pleasure of training with him at his training facility .http://www.cruciblesecurity.com . An article on him and his unarmed work appeared in Black Belt Magazine:http://w3.blackbeltmag.com/featurecontent/view.asp?article=364

I have also been very lucky to have trained with Carl Cestari, who does quite a bit of stuff but is best known for his WWII style close combat. An article on him appeared in Black Belt Magazine: http://w3.blackbeltmag.com/featurecontent/view.asp?article=332 He has various videotapes available from: http://www.close-combat-video.com/ Some of his writing and information is avaialable at http://www.gutterfighting.org/ and http://www.allinfighting.com/

I've also trained with Peyton Quinn: http://www.rmcat.com

Pikal
09-27-2003, 08:26 PM
I had the pleasure of spending about an hour talking with Lee Aldridge, head instructor for Reality Based Fighting Concepts in Albuquerque, www.fightingconcepts.com (http://www.fightingconcepts.com) , the other day. Very very nice guy, very intelligent, he does some work around another forum so I was already familiar with his material somewhat, but talking with him in person really impressed me. Sometime next year, if I can get some time away from school, I'm going to get with him for some training. Lee doesnt have tapes or books out, but is worth mentioning IMO.
I'd get with him to train this year, but spent my end-of-year training budget on Jim Keating's Riddle of Steel :D And as I am sure most folks know, JAK does have some tapes out ;)

V just mentioned Carl Cestari too - which I am glad for. Carls writings around the web have made a good impression on me, and he's someone else I'd like to train with sooner rather than later.

Decado
09-28-2003, 06:08 AM
For H2H training I recommend Paul Vunak's Street Fighting series. I own almost all of them and have learned quite a bit. I also recommend actually training with Vunak himself. I had trained in Martial Arts for a number of years before I trained with Vunak and it was a very eye opening experience.

Decado

VaughnT
10-05-2003, 03:55 PM
Anyone worked with David Summers and the Ronin Group? I'm keen on getting in a class or two, but I've never heard mention of their abilities...though they are sure to be better than mine.

Is it possible that quality instruction is just around the block? Weird that there isn't a boxing gym in all of greenville, but there is a spec-ops school just down the road.

www.ronin-grp.com

Cold War Scout
10-07-2003, 02:37 PM
From my personal experience, SCARS is the best fighting training I have ever learned.

www.scars.com

SMDS141
10-08-2003, 09:56 AM
From my personal experience, SCARS is the best fighting training I have ever learned.

www.scars.com
I have a little experience with SCARS and will attest to the fact that their gun retention/disarm training is some of the best I've seen. Don't have much else in the form of knowledge about it/them.

Cold War Scout
10-08-2003, 02:14 PM
I like the aggressive/offensive mindset that SCARS induces.

Vig Creed
11-06-2003, 12:55 PM
I am studying "ATTACK PROOF" right now, by John Perkins, a retired NYC police detective, Master class shooter and martial arts instructor, who has taught his unusual "Ghostfist" defense methods to NYPD, SWAT teams and various Special Ops troops. It is the very best hand-to-hand self-defense book I've ever seen for street use by average people (non-martial artists).

The book features easy-to-learn street defense techniques for real-life situations (as opposed to formal martial arts training for matches/show). And, having had to subdue numerous criminal suspects on the street myself, it is as good a book on the subject as I've ever seen.

This book is also endorsed by Jim Cirillo.

If you are looking for reality-based self-defense training for the street, this book is a must-read

creed

dgg9
11-06-2003, 01:51 PM
I am studying "ATTACK PROOF" right now, by John Perkins,

I read it, too. It's informed by a lot of concepts from "internal" martial arts. I wonder if someone who has never taken an internal art would get too much out of the book.

Pikal
11-06-2003, 02:17 PM
For books, may I make a suggestion of the two classic (and best, IMO) hand-to-hand fighting texts, Get Tough by W.E. Fairbairn and Kill or Get Killed by Col. Rex Applegate.
No nonsense, easily learned, retained and practiced techniques, that are proven effective and can be done by anyone.
You should get printed copies of these books, Paladin Press publishes them - but there are copies available for free download online, as they are in the public domain.
http://www.gutterfighting.org/files/Kill_or_Get_Killed.pdf Kill or Get Killed in .PDF format
http://www.vrazvedka.ru/main/learning/ruk-b/fairbairn-01.shtml Get Tough in website form.
Also check out www.get-tough.net (http://www.get-tough.net) and www.gutterfighting.org (http://www.gutterfighting.org) for more on this type of material - its well worth your time to look into it. Get Tough dot net has the 1943 version of Kill or Get Killed available, the edition on GutterFighting is the '76 edition and the one currently printed by Paladin was revised int he 1980's I believe. the '43 version is the very best, but the basics carry onwards in the later editions, they are worth having.


As for SCARS - its not really all that (or a bag of chips). Some interesting ideas, I do like the spoken concept of fostering an agressive spirit, but a lot of SCARS is reactionary as the name implies, Special Combat Aggressive Reactionary Systems. If you are going to seriously hard an agressive method, then why do you wish to encourage re-action? Action will ALWAYS beat reaction, the actor controls the situation, the re-actor simply deals with it until he gets lucky, or it catches up to him. If you are the actor you control the situation and you create the odds.
Taking ground is good, etc. and there is a place for reactionary technique, it should be known.
But what is it really? According to many sources, Bob Taylor being the first example that comes to mind, its green/yellow belt level of a Kung Fu sty;e created by Jimmy Woo, which Jerry L. Peterson (the developer of SCARS) trained in for a time.
Taught to the SEAL's in BUD/s from 1989 to '93 or '94, yes it was, what did a Lt. Commander King, then a NACSPECWAR public affairs officer tell Full Contact magazine about SCARS in 1994, "It hardly teaches anyone how to kick anybody's ass. Its a morale builder - a motivator - and thats all."
SCAR's teaches specific combination attacks, what happens if you miss, if it doesnt have the desired affect? Under stress are you going to remember those combinations, or are you going to revert to the gross muscle movements everyone else uses? Survery says, the latter.

Not to dash anyones hopes, dreams or B.S. fed images of knowing some really super duper SEAL sh*t, but do some research guys, compare SCARs to Applegate/Fairbairn methods, to the methods of modern reality based instructors, Kelly McCann(aka Jim Grover), Carl Cestari, Gabe himself.
SCARS sorta falls apart under close inspection.

No, I never have trained in it - but I have researched it and decided not to waste my time. Take my opinions for what you will, they are my opinions alone. If you are a SCARs fan, have fun - I wont debate it with you, I have nothing to prove nor will I waste my time ont hose who do. I just felt the need to pipe up about what I see as B.S. before people who could learn better, fell prey to something potentially dangerous.
If you want a little more fairness and objectivity, check this out: http://www.philelmore.com/martial/scars.htm and go from there.

Eh.. just my thoughts. :)

silat1
11-06-2003, 02:58 PM
For books, may I make a suggestion of the two classic (and best, IMO) hand-to-hand fighting texts, Get Tough by W.E. Fairbairn and Kill or Get Killed by Col. Rex Applegate.
No nonsense, easily learned, retained and practiced techniques, that are proven effective and can be done by anyone.
You should get printed copies of these books, Paladin Press publishes them - but there are copies available for free download online, as they are in the public domain.
http://www.gutterfighting.org/files/Kill_or_Get_Killed.pdf Kill or Get Killed in .PDF format
http://www.vrazvedka.ru/main/learning/ruk-b/fairbairn-01.shtml Get Tough in website form.
Also check out www.get-tough.net (http://www.get-tough.net) and www.gutterfighting.org (http://www.gutterfighting.org) for more on this type of material - its well worth your time to look into it. Get Tough dot net has the 1943 version of Kill or Get Killed available, the edition on GutterFighting is the '76 edition and the one currently printed by Paladin was revised int he 1980's I believe. the '43 version is the very best, but the basics carry onwards in the later editions, they are worth having.


As for SCARS - its not really all that (or a bag of chips). Some interesting ideas, I do like the spoken concept of fostering an agressive spirit, but a lot of SCARS is reactionary as the name implies, Special Combat Aggressive Reactionary Systems. If you are going to seriously hard an agressive method, then why do you wish to encourage re-action? Action will ALWAYS beat reaction, the actor controls the situation, the re-actor simply deals with it until he gets lucky, or it catches up to him. If you are the actor you control the situation and you create the odds.
Taking ground is good, etc. and there is a place for reactionary technique, it should be known.
But what is it really? According to many sources, Bob Taylor being the first example that comes to mind, its green/yellow belt level of a Kung Fu sty;e created by Jimmy Woo, which Jerry L. Peterson (the developer of SCARS) trained in for a time.
Taught to the SEAL's in BUD/s from 1989 to '93 or '94, yes it was, what did a Lt. Commander King, then a NACSPECWAR public affairs officer tell Full Contact magazine about SCARS in 1994, "It hardly teaches anyone how to kick anybody's ass. Its a morale builder - a motivator - and thats all."
SCAR's teaches specific combination attacks, what happens if you miss, if it doesnt have the desired affect? Under stress are you going to remember those combinations, or are you going to revert to the gross muscle movements everyone else uses? Survery says, the latter.

Not to dash anyones hopes, dreams or B.S. fed images of knowing some really super duper SEAL sh*t, but do some research guys, compare SCARs to Applegate/Fairbairn methods, to the methods of modern reality based instructors, Kelly McCann(aka Jim Grover), Carl Cestari, Gabe himself.
SCARS sorta falls apart under close inspection.

No, I never have trained in it - but I have researched it and decided not to waste my time. Take my opinions for what you will, they are my opinions alone. If you are a SCARs fan, have fun - I wont debate it with you, I have nothing to prove nor will I waste my time ont hose who do. I just felt the need to pipe up about what I see as B.S. before people who could learn better, fell prey to something potentially dangerous.
If you want a little more fairness and objectivity, check this out: http://www.philelmore.com/martial/scars.htm and go from there.

Eh.. just my thoughts. :)


Since I haven't had the opportunity to train with very many stateside cqb instructors for a long time, I would like to add my two cents on this.

For the time I have been training military affiliated personnel, I teach them the stuff that I learned from my instructors in the Philippines.. In Baraw defensa, the applications taught by my instructor was based on training that he was taught by his dad prior to WW2 at which time his dad was an CQB instructor with the US Army in the Philippines. Baraw Defensa is a combination of the Filipino weapon arts with empty hand training included..


Just a little input into this

Bill

michael
11-06-2003, 03:06 PM
The most realistic training I've found is Close Quarter Combat by W. Hock Hochheim. He is a former military and police officer and integrates military/police training with martial arts. He combines training in hand,knife, stick and gun.

Russ Adler
11-07-2003, 06:48 AM
We are conducting a two-day EHC course on 06 - 07 December in Lake City, Florida for anyone interested. We have been conducting an "instructor" course for this system under Military contract for the past year and a half.

www.Dedicated-Professionals.com

I understand that Tony Blauer also has a good program with his "SPEAR" system.

szorn
11-07-2003, 10:01 AM
The most realistic training I've found is Close Quarter Combat by W. Hock Hochheim. He is a former military and police officer and integrates military/police training with martial arts. He combines training in hand,knife, stick and gun.

I second this opinion. Having trained for almost 15 years and done research on almost all of the "reality" systems on the market, including most of those mentioned, I have found Hock's material to be the most comprehensive of it's kind.

http://www.hockscqc.com

Steve

Cold War Scout
11-23-2003, 12:54 PM
I am not one who believes that SCARS is the be all or end all in combatives. I simply feel that it is the best combatives training I have ever personally had. And I have had my share of training due to the nature of my work. The body mechanics, the offense oriented nature of the system, the dynamic strikes emphasized are what makes it an excellent system to me. We spent a hell of a lot of time doing multiple attacker scenarios where we the students attacked each other (5 against 1) over and over and over. No pre-planned scenarios. And we had to respond dynamically to each attack and try to keep from being overwhelmed. When I left my SCARS training I was in physical pain and discomfort like I have never been in my combatives life. But I know damn well I can take a punch and a kick, and that I can fight against multiple assailants. I feel more fearless than I ever have before. And frankly to me, it is the mind that is the most important element in any struggle.

Joe56
11-25-2003, 08:50 AM
Having trained at the Cruicible, I am of course biased towards Kelly McCann. He's a hell of a nice guy, plain speaking and extremely serious.

The techniques he teaches are based around realistic situations. I find the knife style and ground fighting tech's to be effective.

V42
11-26-2003, 09:18 AM
I have been to Crucible twice and can echo your comments about Kelly McCann

If we are talking about videos and books, people might want to also consider:

Richard Dimitri of Senshido www.senshido.com (http://www.senshido.com)

Sammy Franco www.sammyfranco.com (http://www.sammyfranco.com)

WWII books currently in print and available through Paladin Press and Amazon.com:

GET TOUGH! by W.E. Fairbairn

KILL OR GET KILLED by Rex Applegate

THE CLOSE COMBAT FILES OF COL. REX APPLEGATE by Chuck Melson

COLD STEEL by John Styers - has a great section of unarmed, stick, and knife.

SHOOTING TO LIVE by W.E. Fairbairn and E.A. Sykes

Bullseyes Don't Shoot Back by Col. rex Applegate & Michael Janich - a modern book on point shooting.

Videos: EVERY Carl Cestari video you can get available from
www.close-combat-video.com

Jim Grover's AKA Kelly McCann's 3 part Combative series tape and his Situational Self Defense tape available from paladin press. www.paladin-press.com

modern books:

REAL FIGHTING by Peyton Quinn, much better than his earlier Bouncer's Guide To Barroom Survival (which in itself is a good book in explaining the attacker and bully mindset but a poor in in terms of technique). This book explains why traditional martial arts training often fails to prepare people for real life violent encounters and led me to attend Peyton Quinn's RMCAT, where you face heavily padded assailants to allow you to execute full power blows against their simulated attack. Also his Bouncer's Guide To Barroom Brawling once you get past the title it is a good book though Quinn no longer teaches some of the techniques illustrated in it.

Charles Rives
11-26-2003, 10:25 AM
Take a look at Mike Lee Karanek's F.I.G.H.T. (http://www.fighttosurvive.com/index.jsp) system. I've been practicing it for a few months. I like it pretty well. It's a spin-off of the Isreali Krav Maga system.

You've probably seen some of the F.I.G.H.T. ads in the gun magazines. The system has some pretty flashy ads but it is a very simple, easily learned system.

-Chuck