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combat engineer
10-04-2004, 09:54 PM
Ok, I have to get up for PT in <4 hrs and can't sleep, so here is my best I-need-something-to-do senario:

Let's say you are at work as a service mechanic at a motorcycle dealership. For some reason this morning you felt the need to carry to work this morning, even though it is agains company policy and could get you fired. 3 other employees work with you and all are "pro-gun" but none carry. A group of 3 men get out of a F-350 dually pulling a empty 16' trailer that they have backed up to the loading ramp (standard procedure for someone picking up their bike). As the three approach the service counter, BG #1 one splits and walks over to the closed double doors that separate service from the showroom (to guard them). BG#1 draws a pistol upon entering. Meanwhile, BG #2 grabs your friend from behind the counter and uses him as a body shield with a knife to his neck demanding that you lay face-down on the ground or he will kill your friend. BG#3 is watching out the bay door, waiting for the word to start loading up bikes onto the trailer, it is unknown whether he has a weapon or not. All of this happens very quickly and BG #2 has your friend by the neck by the time you look up from your bench and realize what is happening.

Notes:
1) There are no other people in the area, its is a typical boring weds afternoon.
2) You are the last bay down, approx. 50 ft from BG #2
3) You are near your toolbox, so you have at your disposal your EDC and any tools typically found in a bike shop.
4) Your other 2 buddies are about 15' from BG #1, separated by 2 motorcycles and an ATV.
5) There is one security camera that watches the desk, but the tapes are only watched when something is missing/stolen.


Lets play it out from there and see how it unfolds....

*edited for spelling and content

combat engineer
10-05-2004, 10:22 AM
no takers yet ehhh :confused:

Steve Camp
10-05-2004, 10:50 AM
How far am I from BG #1 and BG #3? Do I have clear shots at either of them, especially BG #1?

You stated BG #1 pulled pistol as soon as he entered... what is he doing with it, where is it pointed? Down at his feet? Out the bay door? Directly at my two buddies 15' away from him?

Is there anyone else in the service area/bays?

Just to be clear: have I been seen by the BGs? Are they telling ME to lie down, or my two buddies 15' away from BG #1?

Is there any way I can quickly leave my service bay (e.g. a side or back door) and loop around (unseen) to possibly take a shot at BG #2 and / or #1 from the rear?

combat engineer
10-05-2004, 01:07 PM
How far am I from BG #1 and BG #3? Do I have clear shots at either of them, especially BG #1?

You stated BG #1 pulled pistol as soon as he entered... what is he doing with it, where is it pointed? Down at his feet? Out the bay door? Directly at my two buddies 15' away from him?

Is there anyone else in the service area/bays?

Just to be clear: have I been seen by the BGs? Are they telling ME to lie down, or my two buddies 15' away from BG #1?

Is there any way I can quickly leave my service bay (e.g. a side or back door) and loop around (unseen) to possibly take a shot at BG #2 and / or #1 from the rear?

excellent questions....

1) yes you have a clear shot at BG #1, not at BG #3 because he is standing at the door which is behind BG #2

2) You are approx 40 ft from BG #1, and 55 ft from BG#3 whom is out of your line of sight.

3) BG #1's pistol is pointed at your two friends who are now huddled very closely together.

4) no one else is in the area and no one in the showroom has any idea anything is going on yet

5) you have been seen by all BG's

6) There is an exit door approx 25 feet to your right that the BG's have not noticed (you don't think)

I will try to draw up a paint schematic to give you a better idea....so stand by for that...

Coops
10-05-2004, 01:22 PM
As Cameron said, you must shoot BG1 as you close him down, moving fast towards him. He is a threat to you.

BG2 is not an immediate threat to you, but by moving towards the fight you will provide a better shot on him,if needed.

BG3 should be shot ASAP, if the opportunity arises, due to the uncertanty as to his position.

So, If you are successful, BG1 is down and BG2 is scared sensless, in fear of his life.Your suprise attack might just save the day. But it takes a lot of guts to do it.

combat engineer
10-05-2004, 01:23 PM
Ok, lets see if I can attach this....

note: may not be perfectly to scale ;)

*edit* wow thats small, if you need to see the bigger version, let me know...I'll have to host it I guess and figure out how to post an image

Steve Camp
10-05-2004, 02:04 PM
First, a deep breath, and a quick prayer. Take a second or two to formulate a plan.

I see the following possible options:


The Hard Approach

Shoot BG#1 to the ground; possibly advance towards BGs hiding handgun inside a clean shop rag -- make like I'm wiping my hands off. When close enough, lose the rag, employ handgun. If BG #3 does not boogie on out of there... take him next. Then advance on BG #2. Do not press TOO close (7 yards max). Talk to him. Tell him he may leave. Point towards the open door. Tell him if he harms your friend, he will not leave alive. IF negotiations do NOT go well... I either have to look for a headshot I KNOW I can make, or press quickly, smoothly, and shoot the BG #2 to the ground.


The Soft Approach

Try to get closer. Walk towards BG#2, but maintain a shot on BG#1. Inform BG #2 that if he lets your friend go, they may all go in peace. I'd be advancing towards them trying to stay near useful cover (like a step away) if any is to be had, or using BG#2 as cover from BG#1 (guy with pistol).

Once close enough, move and shoot BG #1 to the ground, then #3 if he is still around. Press on BG#2. When close enough and have opportunity, take #2. If #2 drops the knife and runs, let him go. Same same for #1 and #3... if they run, with no weapons... let them go.


The Sneaky Approach

If I can get to that back door, and it would allow me to sneak / loop around and take BG #2 and #1 by surprise... then I may try to run screaming "Don't shoot!" to the door like I was desperate to get out of there... then loop around and try to take BG #2 in the head, then #1 immediately. If #3 does not beat feet... he'd be next.


The Blue Approach

If there is a phone handy (shop phone, cell phone), and cover from which I could make a call... another approach would be to produce weapon, point in on BG #2 / #1, and call the police. Inform them the Police are on their way, and they'd better get moving. If BG #2 cuts my friend... he gets shot to the ground. Then BG #1, and anyone else still around. Otherwise, wait for the PoPo to sort it out.


The Possum Approach

Is the shop noisy at all? Pretend you didn't hear the BGs. Covertly draw sidearm, obscure self behind equipment / bikes etc. Completely ignore the BGs. Maybe wave initially, but go back to what I was doing. This will piss them off and one will probably come over to see what the hell is wrong with me. If BG #3 comes over, if he has a weapon, shoot him to the ground when he is close enough. If he does not have a weapon, when he is close enough, hand or toss him a wrench - make him catch it with his hands... then SHTTG. Then push quickly -- shoot BG#1 to the ground, then push in on BG#2. Quickly and smoothly -- a smooth, quick duckwalk. When the opening presents itself, take BG #2.


Personally, I think the Hard Approach has the best chance for success. The response will need to be very quick, very violent, and I'll need to close quickly. It also requires a cool head, great big ones, and lots of practice / confidence.

I think I must adopt the mindset that my friend with the knife to his throat is already dead... I can only hope to bring him back to life.

Steve Camp
10-05-2004, 02:09 PM
After seeing the diagram, after the Hard Approach, the Sneaky Approach where I run out the door to my right/rear screaming and then running around the building to try to get to the double doors by BG #1 may be a very viable option. By pieing the double doors... if I can take BG #1 with a head shot without being noticed... then I can press on BG #2 very quickly. When BG #1 goes down... that should reset BG #2's OODA loop... and I may be able to press him SHTTG while he's wondering what the hell just happened. If BG #3 is advancing (i.e. not leaving), then he get's a serving too.

lead_magnet
10-06-2004, 09:50 AM
Very nice ... a tough one.

First, shoot BG #1 to the ground. If i have a shot ab BG#3 he goes down too. Now, either BG #2 is going to kill my friend, or he is going to bail, (in which case shoot him before he leaves) or he is going to hold his ground (probably from fear). If he kills my buddie, he goes down, if he tries to bail, again shoot him before he makes the door, if he holds his ground...

Walk to BG #1 while maintaining your watch on him. Talk to him, tell him if he lets your friend go, he may leave. If he takes any other course of action he will not see another day, upon this comment, shoot BG # 1's body in the head and wait for a responce. (the sight of this display of violence may convince him you mean business).

Nanuk
10-06-2004, 10:10 AM
Ok, You adopt the hard approach and your friend with the knife at his throat is maybe dead. Why not let them take what they want??? As long as nobody is getting hurt. If he is just holding your friend to make a point and get you to allow them to steal the bikes fine. You are the one who is at the point of reading the situation. You also did not mention, do they have another vehicle outside with more BG's that you are unaware of. This is not about being macho and saving Suzuki, or Honda or Harley Davidson 100,000.00 in motorcycles, this is survival. This may be a time to appear weak, so as to get them to drop their guard, face it they have several advantages and you are in a bad situation at the very best.

Steve Camp
10-06-2004, 10:17 AM
Ok, You adopt the hard approach and your friend with the knife at his throat is maybe dead. Why not let them take what they want??? As long as nobody is getting hurt. If he is just holding your friend to make a point and get you to allow them to steal the bikes fine. You are the one who is at the point of reading the situation. You also did not mention, do they have another vehicle outside with more BG's that you are unaware of. This is not about being macho and saving Suzuki, or Honda or Harley Davidson 100,000.00 in motorcycles, this is survival. This may be a time to appear weak, so as to get them to drop their guard, face it they have several advantages and you are in a bad situation at the very best.

Yeah... no sh**, this is a bad situation. Maybe 30 or 50 years ago... sure, let the BGs have what they want. Ever since Columbine really made me sit up and pay attention... I take note of random killings. A husband bothering no one murdered by some gang banger wannabees while he is pumping gas into the family minivan at a gas station north of Denver just off the interstate. A nutcase that walks into Chuck-E-Cheese ostensibly to rob the night crew, but murders 4-5 of them instead (or in addition).

My point? How do I know that BG #1 isn't going to shoot all of us after I have "come over" to them? These are violent men in the middle of committing a violent crime. On general principle, I refuse to trust my life, my family's lives, and the lives of my friends to the good graces of violent criminals.

Yes, you could give up and go become a prisoner, hostage etc... but whether you live or die at that point depends on the whim of a violent criminal. That is extremely precarious, IMO.