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Black Horse
11-03-2003, 09:52 PM
I am in the market for a Bug / pocket pistol i have been useing a friends g26 but find it a little on the large size. I also have a taurus M85 and same story was thinking of going with a NAA guardian or the Kel-Tec .32 or 380 does anyone here have any experience good or bad with either of these or any other recomendations? it will be carried in front pants pocket or ankle rig for uniform carry and in utility pocket in raid vest.

NedMan
11-03-2003, 10:02 PM
Kahr has just released the PM40 in .40 S&W, same frame size as the PM9. http://www.kahr.com/new_pm4043.html

Compare the Kel-Tec P-11 9mm stats (in inches):

5.6 long
4.3 tall
1 wide

with the P-32 .32 stats:

5.1 long
3.5 tall
.75 wide

With the Kahr PM40 .40 S&W stats:

5.35 long
4.0 tall
.94 wide

The Kahr PM40 is smaller than the P-11, slightly larger than the P-32, and more powerful than either.

Gecko
11-04-2003, 04:02 AM
Over the past few years I have carried a P32 and a Colt Mustang .380 as BUGS. About 2 months ago I bought a Kahr PM9. It is unquestionably one of the best guns (let alone best BUG's) that I have ever owned. Darn thing is slowly, and inadvertently, replacing my G36 as my primary concealed carry gun. No problem carrying this gun in pocket or ankle holsters. I carry mine in a FIST Ultra Thin Kydex Pocket Holster or a Galco Ankle Hoster.

Don't overlook this gun in your selection process, though they are not cheap!

michael
11-04-2003, 06:28 AM
I am in the market for a Bug / pocket pistol i have been useing a friends g26 but find it a little on the large size. I also have a taurus M85 and same story was thinking of going with a NAA guardian or the Kel-Tec .32 or 380 does anyone here have any experience good or bad with either of these or any other recomendations? it will be carried in front pants pocket or ankle rig for uniform carry and in utility pocket in raid vest.

I have carried and shot both. I first had a Kel Tec P32 and loved the weight and small size. However, I had many malfunctions with it. The gun shop offered to keep it and work on it until it was flawless, but I don't like guns that jam and always trade them. I then got the NAA Guardian in .380. I liked the increase in caliber, but it too had several malfunctions. After I put many rounds through it, it became very reliable and I carried it for many months. The pros are: good recoil control for a .380 in a small package, sturdy built and reliable. The downside to it is that the NAA is very heavy for a small BUG. It felt like a 5 pound weight in my pocket, which really defeated the purpose of a lightweight BUG. I then traded back for another P32. I was assured by different sources that malfunctions are an anomaly in the P32. I have put many rounds through the new one and it has not missed a beat. I love the lightweight P32. It carrys very well, so well in fact that you could forget it is there. The performance of the .32 is not as good as the .380, but it is a tradeoff I am willing to make for the difference in weight. It's basically a contact to 7 yard gun anyway, and at 7 yards I have no trouble keeping pretty tight groups with it. It's a keeper and rides in a strong side pocket holster.

sanchezero
11-04-2003, 07:47 AM
I'd have to recommend the PM9. It's not much bigger than the little keltecs, but it's a 'real' gun :). I don't own one (I'm a Jframe guy, but you don't want that), but several of the guys I shoot with have them, so I've spent a good bit of time behind the wheel and they are nice.

Why get a .32 or .380 when you can have a 9mm in the same size package?

Oh, the $300 price difference, yeah thats it...

;)

hippy john
11-04-2003, 07:59 AM
I'm going to vote for the p32 as that has to be the smallest gun I've seen. Mine was a little more selective with ammo, but now that I know what it likes, everything is fine. Mine has that little belt clip on it and thats just a great thing to have. If you are wearing just about anything, you can conceal this little BUG. It's the gun I carry, when I'm not carrying a gun.

Keith
11-04-2003, 09:44 AM
I've got both the Guardian in 380 ACP and the P-32. For myself I found the Guardian too heavy for the purpose that I had in mind.

My next attempt brought me to the P-32. The first time I saw one, a gentleman was at the range shooting LSWC reloads with no malfunctions whatsoever and very acceptable accuracy. I placed an order and had mine in a couple days and haven't looked back. I've had ZERO malfunctions through the first 1000 or so rds(FMJ and Silvertip) with several different shooters(small frame females to full grown males).

You might want to ask around about the Kel-Tec 380. I looked at one side by side with my P-32 and found the same size package with one less round. I'm just waiting to find one to shoot before I buy like I did with the P-32.

I hope this helps.

Keith

P.S. It's what I carry when I can't carry a pistol and when I can carry a full-size pistol, it's still with me.

Wulfenite
11-04-2003, 09:46 AM
I have both the P32 and an MK9. If what you said above, that the g26 was a "little" too large, I'd look serriously at the MK or PM 9 from kahr. As was noted above they are "Real" guns. That means, real service caliber, even +p9mm is fully managable, real usable trigger, real sights, real "as small as you can hold it will shoot" accuracy.

The P32 on the other hand has none of these real qualities. That means that even after a fluff-and-buff the trigger is long hard and not really smooth, the sights are these cheese notches in the top of the slide and there's not ability to adjust them to POI, even after you figure out where the POI is you can easily hold inside the guns accuracy, and as for caliber you get to choose between a FMJ with marginal penetration and no expansion and a HP that expands but has less than optimal penetration. Oh yeah the cost of ammo. You _never_ see cheep 32. Cheep 9mm is every where. That alone will make up for the increased cost of the Kahr. Also the Kahr gives every indications that you could shoot it all you want during your life then give it to your kid for another lifetime of shooting. I actually ration the rounds I put thorugh the keltec cause it just feels like it could wear out and they are no longer available in Ca.

The ONLY really great thing about the KT is that it can be concealed and where and easily forgotten about. Its a 0 effort carry gun, not a shooter.

I suppose to put it in LEO terms..... We've all heard of situtions where a LEO has unloaded his duty weapon and relied on his back up as primary for fear of loosing control of the exposed belt gun, like in a riot/crowd type situation. If I were a LEO I would not depend on the 32 as primary but I would do so without hesitation with the Kahr.

Black Horse
11-04-2003, 11:04 AM
I have both the P32 and an MK9. If what you said above, that the g26 was a "little" too large, I'd look serriously at the MK or PM 9 from kahr. As was noted above they are "Real" guns. That means, real service caliber, even +p9mm is fully managable, real usable trigger, real sights, real "as small as you can hold it will shoot" accuracy.

The P32 on the other hand has none of these real qualities. That means that even after a fluff-and-buff the trigger is long hard and not really smooth, the sights are these cheese notches in the top of the slide and there's not ability to adjust them to POI, even after you figure out where the POI is you can easily hold inside the guns accuracy, and as for caliber you get to choose between a FMJ with marginal penetration and no expansion and a HP that expands but has less than optimal penetration. Oh yeah the cost of ammo. You _never_ see cheep 32. Cheep 9mm is every where. That alone will make up for the increased cost of the Kahr. Also the Kahr gives every indications that you could shoot it all you want during your life then give it to your kid for another lifetime of shooting. I actually ration the rounds I put thorugh the keltec cause it just feels like it could wear out and they are no longer available in Ca.

The ONLY really great thing about the KT is that it can be concealed and where and easily forgotten about. Its a 0 effort carry gun, not a shooter.

I suppose to put it in LEO terms..... We've all heard of situtions where a LEO has unloaded his duty weapon and relied on his back up as primary for fear of loosing control of the exposed belt gun, like in a riot/crowd type situation. If I were a LEO I would not depend on the 32 as primary but I would do so without hesitation with the Kahr.


Guys, thanks for the responses i had never considered the Kahr but it seems that everyone thinks the pm9 or 40 may be the way to go i will see if i can find one out here in the sticks to look at or compare to the glock. that is my main concern the glock is just a hair to big.

Sizzler
11-04-2003, 12:25 PM
I just recently bought the little Keltec 380. I have only put just over 100 rounds through it and not had a single gun related problem. The only problem I had was a sore hand after all those rounds in one range trip. It made shooting my G-19 and G-23 right afterwords a breeze. The 380 has a sharp kick but it is managable. I still need to use it more to get the aiming down. I do great out to about 15 feet but past there it's a challenge. But this will be solved with more practice. I think as a BUG it is the least I would carry. I also drop it in my PJ's at night while around the house. My G19,G23 tends to drop my PJ's around my knees when I tried to carry them :rolleyes: .

Brass Balls
11-04-2003, 05:10 PM
Guys, thanks for the responses i had never considered the Kahr but it seems that everyone thinks the pm9 or 40 may be the way to go i will see if i can find one out here in the sticks to look at or compare to the glock. that is my main concern the glock is just a hair to big.

The Kahr PM series is the king of the pocket gun niche imho. I own a MK40 and several months ago purchased a PM9 to replace the MK as a pocket gun. Both guns have been very reliable with hollowpoint ammo after the initial 200 round break in but the PM9 is a full 9 ounces lighter which makes a huge difference for pocket carry.

The PM9 is available with night sights and is pretty darn accurate especially when compared to guns of it's size.


clic pic
http://www.kahr.com/images/pm9094.gif (http://www.kahr.com/pistols_PM9094.html)

Pictured is the PM9 with blackened, Tungsten DLC coated, stainless steel slide. It is shown with a flush mounted 6 round magazine and an extended 7 round magazine is available as a backup. The gun comes with one of each.

billcameron
11-04-2003, 05:22 PM
Not to rain on the Kahr parade, but I had problems with one. An early mini 9mm, all steel, I believe MK9. Anyhow, when I made quick grab for gun and did not remember to keep thumb down I often locked slide open with rounds in mag. I heard they modified slide release and it may just have been me, but something you may wish to consider.

fastbolt
11-29-2003, 05:02 PM
There are quite a few good quality small handguns that can offer double duty as both Secondary weapons and smaller off duty weapons.

I've always preferred S&W J-frames for that role, especially the newer Airweights rated for +P ammunition, although I don't feel the ultra lightweight Ti & Sc/ti guns offer anything more than the standard 642 Airweight offers me, that I need for MY purpose, anyway.

I don't have anything against using an ultra compact pistol for this role, ... but ...

Many of the smaller ultra compact pistols often selected for Secondary use are often the same pistols occasionally mentioned as being susceptible to "limp wristing" grip and forearm stability issues when it comes to 100% reliable functioning. If you shoot them with a firm grip and locked wrist, especially on a controlled environment range, they do fine ...

But what about if the owner desperately needs to be able to shoot with his/her weapon with their wrist sharply bent and "unsupported", the weapon gripped barely tight enough to hold onto the grip frame? Will the diminutive pistols malfunction after the first shot?

Many of the little pistols seem to exhibit this occasional tendency to malfunction when loosely gripped by shooters during range courses of fire ... or when the pistol is held in such a position that the slide can't fully travel to the rear during recoil, which might occur if the hand holding the pistol is "jammed" back against the shooter's torso (I've seen this occur even on a range environment when the shooter WASN'T under more than minimal stress) ... or if the pistol is held so CLOSE to the deadly threat, during the struggle, that the pistol is unintentionally "shoved" against the threat, and the pistol disconnects as designed. Granted, it's the shooter's grip & support of the weapon causing the malfunction ... but exigent circumstances DO occur, and people in life-or-death fights DO often become injured, or at least otherwise distracted ... and fine motor skills DO often suffer some degredation under heightened stress situations.

Snubnose revolvers tend to function as long as the triggers are cycled and the cylinders can rotate. This might be a very useful attribute when things become a bit fuzzy, and some unanticipated violent physical exertion is taking place ...

I don't have the answer to these questions, and don't claim to have them ... but these are some of the things I've seen over the years that make me cautious, and stop to consider more than just the "desirability" of a specific make, model & caliber when trying to determine what might be a "good" Secondary weapon.

To make matters a bit murkier, I've recently seen a couple of our folks shoot their personally owned P-11 & PM9 off duty weapons in qualification courses ... and both weapons exhibited malfunctions NOT directly attributable to the ammunition. The owner of the PM9 transitioned from a very reliable M36 snubnose, with which he shoots well, in order to benefit from the extra "firepower" of the PM9. He's NOT entirely enthused with his decision, at the moment. As one of the instructors for my agency, and a long time shooter, he's just not buying the concept that he should spend so much money on a new weapon only to learn that it won't reasonably, reliably function right out of the box until it's been fired 200-300 rounds.

V42
12-01-2003, 10:34 AM
I have a Kahr PM9 and like it very much. I have about 600 rounds through it and it only jammed once and that was within the first 20 rounds when it failed to go into battery with a Corbon powerball. I even shot part of Gabe's close range gunfighting class with it (also using a Glock 26 and a S&W 640).

After I got mine I became aware of a lot of complaints about the gun.

The gun is not, however, comfortable to shoot for extended amounts of rounds (probably more than 70-100). More than that and I feel like i have a repetitive motion problem. I personally would not want to see what a 40 caliber would be like.

I had to put an A-grip stick on grip on the gun because the first time I fired the gun the checkering abraded my hand something fierce at the web of my hand and the base of my ring finger. The checkering on the front and back of the gun is course enough for woodworking!

I prefer the .38 J-frame for pocket carry since the shape of its grip makes it easier to grasp and draw from the pocket.

However, with an uncle mike's pocket holster which breaks up the profile, the Kahr is something that can be covertly carried in dress pants pockets where a J-frame would show by bulk even if not shape.

Note: I have had a taylor deepen my pants pockets to expedite pocket CCW.

rjbFL
01-13-2004, 07:46 PM
Quick question. I have seen a PM9 field stripped and saw only two pieces of metal at the rear of the frame for the slide to ride on. What protects the from of the frame?

Charles Rives
01-14-2004, 02:27 AM
A .32 is "ok" as a deep carry/secondary BUG but relatively useless as a fighting weapon. We all have seen scores of shootings where such calibers result in minor wounds but as they say "any gun beats no gun" but given the choice I would strongly recomend that the 9mm Kahr be the minimum caliber auto pistol and the .38spcl loaded with Safestop (www.safestop.net) be the absolute lowest primary or BUG used.

David, I agree with you. However, I think that the .32 does have a role IF the person who's carrying it is fully aware that the .32 probably will not stop the fight. I envision using a .32 as a way to augment the knife or unarmed combatives techniques that the fight would probably end with. I picture that handful of .32 rounds like a pocket full of sand that I can throw into the opponent's face before I rush in with a knife. It won't knock him down but it may create the opening that I'd need.

I can't remember who said "those .22's, 25's and .32's are a nice thing to have when you're not carrying a gun."

- Chuck

g32
02-09-2004, 08:31 PM
I recently purchased a Kahr PM9 and am very impressed with the craftmanship. I have put about 500 rounds of practice ammo down range and 100 rounds of Powerball. Only malfunction was the initial round failed to chamber. No other malfunctions to date. I did notice some slight peening on the right side of the barrel hood though. I've got the gunsmith at Kahr taking a look at it and installing night sights. The customer service has been excellent. I called to ask if the wear was normal and the gunsmith told me that since it was so new he wanted to check it out and had Fed EX pick up the gun the same day and ship it overnight. I spoke with the same smith the next day and he had my gun on his desk. He was not surprised with my concern and will polish the barrel hood and feed ramp, etc as wellas install the night sights.

TXHunter
02-10-2004, 07:12 AM
Gentlemen:
The Kel-Tec 32 and 380 weapons do work well as a pocket/bug within their limitations and, the limitations placed upon the shooter. A Kel-Tec 32 weighs 5.5 ounces unloaded and the Kahr PM series weighs in at around 15 ounces unloaded. Obviously more acceptable power levels in the Kahr series, but also 2.25 times the weight. As one who is frequently reduced to only pocket carry due to environment/clothing limitations, I would offer that this weight difference is actually more significant than the limitations of gross size, etc.

The Kel-Tec 32/380's are excellent pocket only guns but are obviously constrained by their very real power limitations. This being said, for those occasions when I can not for whatever reason carry a 'real' handgun, the 32 does serve much better than the proverbial pocket full of rocks.

Black Horse - if you truly need a pocket carry firearm and due to other limitations can not use a weapon such as the Kahr, do not feel like the Kel-Tec 32's and 380's are less than nothing. 2 plus years of using a 32 when nothing else would 'fit' have left me with a great respect for these little pocket rockets.

Best of Luck

angebar
02-10-2004, 12:21 PM
My BUG is a Kel-Tec P3AT (.380). I wear it in a K&D Pocket holster and it virtually doesn't print.
While it's not a .45, it does an adequate job. I would not hesitate to recommend it!

michael
02-10-2004, 12:49 PM
I also have a Kel-Tec P32. It is great for EDC in a pocket holster and works well when you have the choice of only carrying it or not carrying at all. It is reliable and is unnoticeable in the pocket. Yes, it has serious drawbacks regarding power, but I figure a .32 round at bad breath distance into the eye socket or throat is better than nothing. When I think I could need a gun, I always carry something bigger, but a gun in the pocket beats two guns in the car.

Fredo
02-12-2004, 11:49 AM
I almost always agree with fastbolt and this time is no exception. I have no problem concealing my S&W 638 in my front pocket, therefore see no need to carry a .32 or .380. There seems to be a variety of effective new ammo for the snubbie also. Safestop looks good and Speer has a new 135 gr GD made for 2 " barrels. I presume Pow'Rball will eventually be available in .38 special.

Boricua
02-12-2004, 08:15 PM
I have to agree with a good revolver. I have yet to go anywhere where I can't carry my CZ but if I did I would just carry my back up a Ruger SP101. I have smaller pistols but I find that they hide as well as my revolver the only difference is the weight. But with a good holster there are ways around that.

Keep it simple!

p99mike
02-14-2004, 09:06 AM
The p-32 is a small lightweight,compact little package.It is easy on the pocket book also.I purchased one with an extra mag.The weapon would fire the first few rounds without fail,however a failure to go into battery would almost always happen.I fired a bunch of ammo and ended up with silver tips.I cleaned this weapon after each trip to the range,I however lost faith in the little gun.I have a j-frame smith now.Looking back on the p-32 I should have sent it back to the factory for service.Anyway I feel a small bug gun has a place.I am looking for one,but for now the j-fame will due.

michael
02-14-2004, 11:33 AM
The p-32 is a small lightweight,compact little package.It is easy on the pocket book also.I purchased one with an extra mag.The weapon would fire the first few rounds without fail,however a failure to go into battery would almost always happen.I fired a bunch of ammo and ended up with silver tips.I cleaned this weapon after each trip to the range,I however lost faith in the little gun.I have a j-frame smith now.Looking back on the p-32 I should have sent it back to the factory for service.Anyway I feel a small bug gun has a place.I am looking for one,but for now the j-fame will due.

I'm actually on my second P32. The first one I had was unreliable. It failed to feed on several occaisons, so I did not trust it. The smith offered to keep it and work on it until it was 100%, but I got rid of it. I don't like anything that isn't reliable out of the box. I got another one thinking this was not the norm and, so far, this one has been 100% reliable.