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Paul Sharp
09-28-2004, 08:20 AM
http://www.canadas-best.com/images/ISRPM_clipDSL.wmv

Having a little fun is what its all about.

Ron
09-28-2004, 08:30 AM
Wow, now I realize how out of shape I am...I got winded just watching it! :D

VaughnT
09-28-2004, 08:53 AM
Now, that was fun!! :D

Thanks for a great link, hoss, you just made my day!

michael
09-28-2004, 09:14 AM
Great clip! Now that's what I call training!:D

B0486
09-28-2004, 09:26 AM
Reality based, no holds barred brawling in a controlled way [ necessary to prevent serious injury of course ].

Notice how many of those ending up on top grabbed jackets/clothing to control and move the opponent around and to the matt?

There are lessons to be learned from this, watch it again folks.

Good clip Paul

Robin Brown

SouthNarc
09-28-2004, 01:43 PM
Cool-ass clip Paul! Who did the Elton John cover? I like it WAY more than the original.

VaughnT
09-28-2004, 05:40 PM
I've been watching that friggin' clip all day and get a kick out of it every single time.

Sad that there isn't anything like that in these here parts.

V42
09-28-2004, 06:31 PM
Absolutely awesome clip!

I have been watching it over as well.

Paul Sharp
09-28-2004, 07:43 PM
Way cool! I'm really glad you guys dig this. I'm also really glad Lu included my tribute to my mispent youth listening to '80s hair bands in the beginning.

Seriously, this was so much more fun to do than the LE version. No concerns about various SOPs, admin speak and legaleese. Just good old thumpin'. Throw 'em a beatin' and get out of dodge.

Not that we don't like the LE version, its just so much more....., tame. Once we researched SOPs from across the country we were really distressed by just how much a guys hands are tied and how liability driven most SOPs really are.

Thank GOD its not like that in the private sector.

VaughnT
09-29-2004, 02:51 AM
I posted this link over at the 1911forum and the response was definitely unexpected.

"Yea, but those guys are young and in shape."

"No reason to bloody my knuckles when I have a pistol on my hip."

Scary thinking. What should be forefront in the viewers mind is not how young and foolish these practitioners are, but how fast they can act. If they were the badguy, it would be some feat, indeed, to draw your sidearm before they were on top of you.

Coops
09-29-2004, 05:55 AM
Cool-ass clip Paul! Who did the Elton John cover? I like it WAY more than the original.

I am hesitant to say this in case I am going to suffer some American humour, or I have missed the point, but actually, Elton John did the Who cover :p

Paul Sharp
09-29-2004, 07:11 AM
Vaughn,
Thats truly a shame. I've seen that limiting mindset so many times it really causes you to wonder about all the combative mindset bluster. They get fed this LCD line of bs, that their mindset will carry the day, just get mad, cold rage, blah, blah, blah. The same trainers tell them they will be able to take a one or two day course and walk out with skills they can use right then...., even though they are in terrible physical condition, have zero athletic ability, and will most likely never work the material against a resisting opponent. These are probably the same guys that sold wristlocks as a knife defense. :D One could have the best combatives trainer in the world, but if you can't walk up a flight of stairs without getting winded..., you're going to have problems in a fight for your life.

Regarding young....., the average age of the guys you are seeing there would be mid-30s. A few are in their 40s and 50s. My judo coach is in his 70s, I'm afraid to ask his actual age, because it would really hurt my feelings to know he is actually 86 and still tossing me, and everybody else, around. I might be faster, stronger and younger, but he has more flight time against resisting opponents than I have walking upright. I'm not going to try anything on him he hasn't seen and made someone pay for. Ditto for my 60 years young boxing coach. Their timing is impeccable, they don't hit you, you run into it. :D

I'm not exactly young and I have a boatload of injuries, but I'm still out there getting it on and competeing in NHB, Boxing, Kickboxing and submission wrestling formats. Things in motion tend to stay in motion.


As a friend of mine likes to say often, "skill is earned, not bought".

garrettwc
09-29-2004, 07:39 AM
Cool-ass clip Paul! Who did the Elton John cover? I like it WAY more than the original.

That's Nickelback with Kid Rock, from Charlie's Angels Full Throttle Soundtrack.

Cool video clip. I'm going to have to watch it a few more times. There are some good learning experiences to be had in that short clip.

DaveJames
09-29-2004, 02:17 PM
"VT" Remember there are those who say they do,,and those who do as they say.

the_scribe
09-29-2004, 06:17 PM
"Yea, but those guys are young and in shape."

"No reason to bloody my knuckles when I have a pistol on my hip."

You don't have to be in supreme shape, though it helps a lot.

Even if you cannot make things like the throws depicted work, there are still a lot of other useful things, including those shown in the video, probably a lot of things not shown, as well as some selective things from other systems. I am not sure I would want to try a throw on a guy 100lbs more than me; but the maneuvering to get their back and jerk them down looks very useful.

You may need to bloody your knuckles and other parts of your body to get to your gun. In everyday life people get close to you all the time and generally by the time you are justified in drawing a gun you are justified in shooting. The problem is the attacker may be on top of you or lunge from everyday conversation distance and you had better be able to do something unarmed to allow you the time and space to draw your weapon-as well as practicing drawing under close range attack.

The video shown is a very 'happy' video for lack of a better word. It is fun to watch and would be fun to do.

However Paul's confession about his previous fondness for 1980s 'Hair Bands' was more than a little bit disturbing.

Jujutsuka
09-30-2004, 11:05 AM
great clip! *So* unfair to get me that amped while injured!! :mad: ;)

the_scribe
09-30-2004, 07:08 PM
In reflection, the video did have some harder to execute throws that many people would not want to try--especially against a larger person. But it also had simple throws like the ones shown just short of the video's 2 minute mark and just after it. These are similar to the reaping leg sweeps that you find in many WWII hand to hand combat books.

But we also saw lots of other things like ways to manipulate people by their clothing and doing things like grabbing their clothes, pushing them away while still holding on and then jerking them back into multiple knee strikes. This magnifies the force of the knee.

Also, I imagine some people at 1911.com don't recognize that situtions where you will require or are only justified in using unarmed skills are much more commonplace than those where you are legally justified in shooting someone.

Luis Gutierrez
10-01-2004, 02:16 PM
I am glad you guys enjoyed the clip.

Paul is the guy at the very beginning of the clip with the long sleeve shirt, in the black t-shirt working at the end of the clip, and the guy using the arm drags and snap downs while wrestling.


-Luis

www.isrmatrix.org

SouthNarc
10-01-2004, 02:32 PM
Nickelback w/Kid Rock. Got it!

Welcome to WT Luis! Great work with ISR Matrix. :)

Kobra
10-01-2004, 11:08 PM
We need to get over our political correctness. The gun is the great equalizer. You know Judo, I have a gun. You are 30, and I am 70 and have a gun. A smart gunfighter is going to win that match, and the law should support him. Anything else is bull pucky.

$.02 Kobra

Luis Gutierrez
10-02-2004, 05:20 AM
No technology is superior to the training behind it and the awareness and timing necessary to use it effectively.

The ability to fight should be tempered with the ability to know how and when to fight and not be technologically impaired with a magic bullet of any kind. The emphasis is and should be on the man behind his actions and not the tool he or she employs.

Obviously, firearms are today's preferred martial weapon but with the ISR, we look at them as much as we do blades, impact weapons and all variables of advantage and disadvantage but always from a strategic point of view and always through a well trained and tested course of action.

Plans can and will change upon contact and we can't always determine how and when contact will occur. Circumstances will evolve and mutate randomly and only a well trained delivery system and strategy can be trusted to fall back on.

You are either trained or not and this training must be well rounded and adaptable. Period. Firearms are indeed part and parcel to many a man's profession as well as any well informed civilian's responsibility but it is just a tool and part of the scheme of things. Technology will not save you, your preparation and training will. This fact is as much a way of life for a professional as it should be for anyone concerned with their own or loved one's well being.

I am glad the clip has created some conversation and has been enjoyed for what it is...just a clip. This is just a fragment of what we play with and a fundamental piece of the puzzle. The important aspect to be realized here is simply to witness what it brings to and from your own experience and awareness. If it reminds you of something, makes you aware of something, or it simply is fun to watch, then it has served you well.

I am glad Paul informed me of this forum and I hope to visit when time permits.


-Luis


www.isrmatrix.org

www.onedragon.com

V42
10-02-2004, 09:38 AM
So..V 42 is alive and well.
i was wondering where you have been lately.
Are you coming to Memphis?

Hi, Matt. Job and other responsibilities at that time of the year make it extremely unlikely I will be able to make it to Memphis.


We need to get over our political correctness.

Political correctness has nothing to do with this. The reality is that in many close range situations require some unarmed skills before you can access your weapon.


The gun is the great equalizer. You know Judo, I have a gun. You are 30, and I am 70 and have a gun. A smart gunfighter is going to win that match, and the law should support him. Anything else is bull pucky.

What is bull pucky is the belef that you will always be able to employ your gun without first using some unarmed techniques to drive a close range attacker off you or create enough space or opportunity to draw your gun.

No one is saying you have to be able do some of the ballistic throws illustrated on that video but a lot of the other things like face smashes, thumbs to the eye, etc are very important skills to have to drive a close range attacker off you to enable you to draw your gun. And you don't get these skills by thinking about them. You get them by training them in a realistic fashion.

michael
10-02-2004, 09:54 AM
V42 makes a very important point. We may have to fight out way to the gun, or use combatives to get someone off the top of us to access a gun or knife. If someone is close enough to grab your weapon and they are trained, they will probably take your prized pistol away from you and kill you with it. Firearms skills without unarmed skills are like a gun without the bullets. You may get lucky and win without them, but it is highly unlikely. Anyone who carries a firearm needs to know basic unarmed skills, or they are merely a liability with a firearm.

Decado
10-02-2004, 06:20 PM
What a great clip! It reminds me how long it has been since I did some serious h2h training :( I gotta find some like minded guys in my area and get back into it. Thanks for the inspiration!!

Decado

Tactical Grappler
10-02-2004, 06:54 PM
Inspiration for some, perspiration for others.....from fear.

This clip is eliciting different reactions because it demonstrates reality. Uncomfortable reality for some.

Guns don't kill people, people do. They don't protect people either - SKILLS do. The gun won't matter if you don't have the skills to forestall an aggressive and motivated assault while gaining access to that gun and applying those skills - IF they are even justified.

Its like the cops that draw their gun at every potential threat because of the mistaken belief that the gun is in and of itself security - and then stand there like they are holding a diaper full of doo when the gun turns out not to be applicable and they don't have the ability to even get it holstered or out of the way of the fight because they have no physical control skills to speak of. And we wonder why cops get disarmed.

I wrote to Luis that I am continually shocked that with all the information available about how real world encounters actually occur, with videotaped evidence of them from a variety of police and non-police sources available to all, and with the strides we have made in training and training tools making it more and more dynamic and realistic, that people still insist on holding on to their myopia and fear rather than pushing themselves out of the comfort zone and diversifying their skill set. Instead they struggle for excuses - too old, too out of shape, blah blah blah.

You can lead a horse to water...

Al Lipscomb
10-02-2004, 07:14 PM
I was involved in a situation where two LEOs were suddenly attacked by three individuals in close quarters. The situation got bad fast and weapon retention was a big issue. The officer's handguns were no longer an asset but a liablility.

Being fight oriented instead of gun oriented is an important idea.

Tactical Grappler
10-03-2004, 12:28 PM
A little inspirational something about someone who did it right: its about the fight,not the weapons. If you lack in one aspect of the fight and depend on your weapons, you may find yourself out of options. This man did not:

http://www.indystar.com/articles/9/171806-8689-092.html

Decado
10-03-2004, 12:35 PM
Wow I just read the responses on the 1911 forums. There are some people seriously deluding themselves over there. :eek:

Decado

operator
10-03-2004, 07:26 PM
We need to get over our political correctness. The gun is the great equalizer. You know Judo, I have a gun. You are 30, and I am 70 and have a gun. A smart gunfighter is going to win that match, and the law should support him. Anything else is bull pucky.

$.02 Kobra

I carry a gun for a living and train a ridiculous amount of time with it.

Getting to that gun in a SD situation is an iron-clad bitch. You need to see it (the attack) coming, get your weapon cleared of its rig and into play, get shot(s) off and incapacitate the opponent in time. You think you can do that before some of these boys closed the distance? What distance do you think you'd need to do so?

Food for thought only.

Kobra
10-03-2004, 09:35 PM
What I was saying was that getting into a fist fight instead of pulling your gun (brandishing it) to stop a possible fist fight is just stupid, IMO.

Secondly, I've been in plenty of fights--when I was younger--and I never really saw one break out of nowhere. They were always arguments that lead up to fist fights. Plenty of time to get out of the situation by swallowing your pride and running.

Thirdly, I think fighting is a skill we should learn, but not before we develope a situational awareness that will keep us in places where we can avoid a "Cato" style attack.

What I was referring to as "PC" was this idea of not wanting to "brandish" one's firearm. To me this is just plain stupid. If you are cornered, and see a fight coming, you should pull the gun to stop the action, and then get the hell out of Dodge.

Kobra

VaughnT
10-04-2004, 03:01 AM
Kobra, in SC "brandishing" a firearm isn't a bad idea....if it wasn't a felony!

If you are not in genuine fear for your life, the life of another, or grave bodily injury, you have to legal standing to draw your weapon. Why?

Because by drawing your pistol, you now give the other guy reason to fear for his life, the life of another, or grave bodily injury. As such, he would be completely justified in trying to kill you in self-defense.

V42
10-04-2004, 04:49 AM
If you draw a gun and just brandish it in conversation distance you are inviting the person to try to grab your gun.

No one is saying not be aware. But lots of time you cannot avoid people approaching you in everyday life.

People walk within conversation distance of you all the time.

Do you draw your gun on everyone who walks up to you who looks suspicious?

A lot of times people may act suspicious but not do anything that warrants drawing a gun until they finally do something violent. By that time it is game on and you may need to do something counteroffensive using unarmed skills to back them off you enough to draw your gun.

Besides, unless it is a disparity of force situation there may be situations facing an unarmed person where you are not justified in drawing your weapon.

As VT said, if you draw your gun to brandish at a legally inappropriate time it may result in you loosing your carry permit and even your legal right to own guns. And that is hardly political correctness.

Decado
10-04-2004, 05:32 AM
I agree with others on the board and think that brandishing a weapon in hopes to scare your attacker is a very bad idea. You will be amazed at how many people are not scared by this action and will attack you even with a gun pointed at them. I know I was intially very suprised when it happened to me. My possible shooting situation quickly turned into a no-shoot situation and we went hand to hand in a blink of an eye, well before I had time to reholster.

To think that there is no need for h2h skills or the gun is the answer to everything is not realistic at all.

Decado

michael
10-04-2004, 05:45 AM
Decado makes a good point. When I was an LEO, I saw several people do this to police officers and have also investigated complaints where this happened to citizens. Many people are either so mad or stupid that the sight of the gun enrages them and they will attack. What then? Are you going to shoot an unarmed attacker because they punch you in the nose? Not a good idea unless you want to end up in prison. I said it before and I'll say it again--unless you are going to spend time learning reality-based SD principles, you are carrying a gun that stands a good chance of being taken away and used against you.

Kobra
10-04-2004, 08:56 AM
<<<This message has been modified to fit your screen>>>

InTheBlack
10-13-2004, 05:56 PM
_)(*&#$&$ old software...

When I open that link it gives the raw code. How do I navigate to it from the home page of the site?