PDA

View Full Version : WWII Combatives



kyle reese
08-28-2004, 01:49 AM
Dear WT Members:

I am very interested in learning everything I can about the empty hand, knife, and stick combative systems and techniques developed and employed during WWII. It seems to me that stuff developed during this time (when we still took our wars seriously as a nation) would be very effective, since the battlefield was the laboratory.

Where can I find as much information/instruction on WWII combatives as possible? I have heard the names Applegate and Fairbairn/Sykes mentioned before but don't know much about them other than that one of them popularized point shooting. I am looking for books/manuals/videos with no BS or fluff. The closer to the original source or developer the better. Is Paladin or Delta Press good for this? I receive their catalogs.
Which authors/instructors should I look for? Is the old Marine manual Cold Steel related to this too?

The empty hand stuff is what I'm after the most, with the knife a close second and the stick a third.

Any recommendations would really help. I can't afford to travel for instruction at this time, so books and videos are more up my alley.

Thanks for any and all help.

Matthew Temkin
08-28-2004, 04:05 AM
Dear WT Members:

I am very interested in learning everything I can about the empty hand, knife, and stick combative systems and techniques developed and employed during WWII. It seems to me that stuff developed during this time (when we still took our wars seriously as a nation) would be very effective, since the battlefield was the laboratory.

Where can I find as much information/instruction on WWII combatives as possible? I have heard the names Applegate and Fairbairn/Sykes mentioned before but don't know much about them other than that one of them popularized point shooting. I am looking for books/manuals/videos with no BS or fluff. The closer to the original source or developer the better. Is Paladin or Delta Press good for this? I receive their catalogs.
Which authors/instructors should I look for? Is the old Marine manual Cold Steel related to this too?

The empty hand stuff is what I'm after the most, with the knife a close second and the stick a third.

Any recommendations would really help. I can't afford to travel for instruction at this time, so books and videos are more up my alley.

Thanks for any and all help.
www.gutterfighting.org
The tapes (available from the links) by Carl Cestari are second to none.
They also have contacts to instructors in your area.
Another option, but not nearly as good or as inexpensive, is www.americancombatives.com
If you come to the Warrior Talk Symposium I'd be glad to give an informal intro to WW2 hand to hand in the evening after the formal classes.
I am also told that some downloads of me demoing both WW2 point shooting and unarmed combat are available at www.IPDTA.com
The best books on the subject from Paladin is KILL OR GET KILLED by Rex Applegate ,GET TOUGH by Fairbairn and COLD STEEL by John Styers.
The Combatives videos offered by Jim Grover are also excellent, especially the first one as well as his offensive self defense video.
Gutterfighting has a complete list of good books/videos as well as other interesting links.

Gabe Suarez
08-28-2004, 09:15 AM
Matt,

At the symposium, if you have a free hour or so, I'd like to discuss your take on Steyrs and his book.

Bri Thai
08-28-2004, 10:03 AM
Is McCann really into WW2 Combatives? I always think of himas a guy who tries to develop it further rather than just preserve the original methods.

Matthew Temkin
08-28-2004, 02:25 PM
Is McCann really into WW2 Combatives? I always think of himas a guy who tries to develop it further rather than just preserve the original methods.
Man....you are very perceptive!!!
The only man who teaches WW2 combatives commercially that I recommend 100% would be Carl Cestari.
Both my dad and Col. Applegate, after watching a video of one of Carl's seminars, both told me that he was the best hand to hand expert that they ever saw.
Applegate told Ralph Grasso ( one of Carl's top students) that Carl looked as if he was trained by Fairbairn.
The only thing bad about WW2 combatives is that it is hard to find an instructor.
And some instructors who try to teach it full time begin to add so many bells and whistles to the system that eventually it turns into just another martial art.
Meaning too many damned---and quite a few ineffective-- techniques.

Matthew Temkin
08-28-2004, 02:30 PM
Matt,

At the symposium, if you have a free hour or so, I'd like to discuss your take on Steyrs and his book.
Since I rarely drink and never chase women I will have tons of spare time on my hand in Memphis.
No problem---and I plan on picking your brain as well.

unstpabl1
08-28-2004, 10:26 PM
Matthew,thanks for the links on the WWII combatives.I'm very intrigued by them especially the How they train as mentioned in a previous thread that got a little wierd :) .Does Mr.Cesteri have web site?I look forward to your future posts on this subject.
Mike Schoenfeld

Matthew Temkin
08-29-2004, 05:05 AM
Carl's website can be reached via gutterfighting...the link is the thread on how to order his tapes.
You can contact him vis Clint Sporman on the CONTACT option.
It's kind of hard to discuss combatives on a forum, other than the history and basic principles.
But I will try to answer any questions asked of me on this forum.

NDD
08-30-2004, 09:38 PM
Is McCann really into WW2 Combatives? I always think of himas a guy who tries to develop it further rather than just preserve the original methods.

Short answer is yes, on both counts. Keldog's base is combatives. I have also grappled with him, he doesn't do point shooting that I know of. I have trained with Keldog and recommend him without reservation. But he does evolve as the situation warrants.

Matthew and I are in agreement on this. And on instructors being hard to find. Another one is defendu in Canada. http://www.defendu.com/ I know a guy who has trained with them and he speaks very highly. defendu appears to be of the O'Neil/1st SSF line. Bob Kasper is another, but he is out of the net for right now.

Would Fairbairn, Sykes, O'Neil etc., still be teaching things now exactly as they did? I don't know, but I kind of think they would be doing some things differently as they adapted and continued to grow. Maybe not.

Mr. Cestari's tapes are next on my list. I have the John Kary series and a copy of the old OSS/Brit training film with Fairbairn and Col. Applegate.

NDD
08-30-2004, 09:46 PM
Matthew, do you mind if I ask who you train with? If you can't or won't, I understand.

Bill

Coops
09-24-2004, 02:09 PM
Coops here, sorry again.

NND, I see you have a copy of the OSS/Brit tape. I would add a copy of 'Shooting to Live with the one hand gun.' and 'All in Fighting,' which was produced in the US as 'Get Tough' with some slight alterations. F

ighting is fighting and that will never change, but If you're interested in the history, the old English language in those books will have you smiling for weeks. It does me and I live here :)

As for my take on it (for what it's worth), I have just posted on the Unarmed Combatives thread, 'Free Hand to Hand training.' I don't mean to offend anyone, but we are all opinionated individuals. Experience and time make us like that. Thus we all know what's right, apparently. So this is my view of what's right, that's all.

Matthew Temkin
09-24-2004, 03:18 PM
Matthew, do you mind if I ask who you train with? If you can't or won't, I understand.

Bill
For some reason I just saw your question today.
I no longer train at formal schools, since quite frankly nothing out there on a commercial basis intrests me.
The bulk of my training comes from the officers that I teach, and most of them are SWAT cops and former special military men from several nations.
Since I do not charge money I do not feel quilty picking their brains, and that includes Coops, from whom I am hoping to get Slavo's system down pat.
Quite frankly, I usually come away with more knowledge than I give away.
Not to sound mysterious, but most of the men who have asked me for training do so on the sly, and without departmental approval, hence I will not mention them in public.
But some of them are joining me in Memphis.

Matthew Temkin
09-24-2004, 03:44 PM
Short answer is yes, on both counts. Keldog's base is combatives. I have also grappled with him, he doesn't do point shooting that I know of. I have trained with Keldog and recommend him without reservation. But he does evolve as the situation warrants.

Matthew and I are in agreement on this. And on instructors being hard to find. Another one is defendu in Canada. http://www.defendu.com/ I know a guy who has trained with them and he speaks very highly. defendu appears to be of the O'Neil/1st SSF line. Bob Kasper is another, but he is out of the net for right now.

Would Fairbairn, Sykes, O'Neil etc., still be teaching things now exactly as they did? I don't know, but I kind of think they would be doing some things differently as they adapted and continued to grow. Maybe not.

Mr. Cestari's tapes are next on my list. I have the John Kary series and a copy of the old OSS/Brit training film with Fairbairn and Col. Applegate.
Actually Defendu was Fairbairn's police method for the SMP, which was greatly modified for the military.
When O'Neil taught the Devils Brigade he made it even more streamlined and taught the finest knife fighting system and the best combo for an enemy who squares off to you and keeps his distance, at least IMHO. ( 7677 has already seen them.)
( I will show both in Memphis, as well as the British Commando knife defense system that can be learned in about 15 minutes)
I was friendly with Applegate from 1991 until his death in 1998 and he said that he would not change anything in his system for life or death combat.
As was echoed by Mel Perry to my Swedish SWAT friends when he taught them CQB in the late 1990's.
What works, works, especially--in fact it is imperative--when the good guy makes the first move.
As with point shooting these simple methods can be learned in a matter of hours, and then, if so inclined, practiced for a lifetime.

NDD
09-24-2004, 06:36 PM
Coops here, sorry again.

NND, I see you have a copy of the OSS/Brit tape. I would add a copy of 'Shooting to Live with the one hand gun.' and 'All in Fighting,' which was produced in the US as 'Get Tough' with some slight alterations. F

ighting is fighting and that will never change, but If you're interested in the history, the old English language in those books will have you smiling for weeks. It does me and I live here :)

As for my take on it (for what it's worth), I have just posted on the Unarmed Combatives thread, 'Free Hand to Hand training.' I don't mean to offend anyone, but we are all opinionated individuals. Experience and time make us like that. Thus we all know what's right, apparently. So this is my view of what's right, that's all.
Now Coops, what kind of dude would I be to come on this thread without having the basic texts? :) Get Tough has been on my nightstand for several years. kill or Get Kilt is in the nightstand drawer. Close Combat Files on the coffee table and Combat Use of the Double Edged Fighting Knife under my pillow. :D I am also the very proud owner of a handmade A/F fighter in S30V - sn#003.

NDD
09-24-2004, 06:38 PM
Roger on the training Matthew, thanks. The beauty of the systems is that they don't require a lot of help to learn. Tapes, books whatever will actually work. Of course, there's nothing like a good dummy to beat up on. :)

Coops
09-27-2004, 03:04 PM
Now Coops, what kind of dude would I be to come on this thread without having the basic texts? :) Get Tough has been on my nightstand for several years. kill or Get Kilt is in the nightstand drawer. Close Combat Files on the coffee table and Combat Use of the Double Edged Fighting Knife under my pillow. :D I am also the very proud owner of a handmade A/F fighter in S30V - sn#003.

Close combat files is a really good book. The book to finish your collection is the 'SOE SYLLABUS, lessons in ungentlemanly warfare, World War II.' It was released by the public records office as some files became public, and is a fun book to have.

ISBN is 1 873162 81 2 and it cost me 20.

However, as Matt can attest, I have an original 'Shooting To Live' and an original 'All in Fighting' which has been endorsed by Bill Pilkington as authentic prior to his death (obviously).

I people want, I have a few copies of the British version of Get Tough. They cost me ten quid each (that's got you guessing) and are good fun. Similar to Get Tough but with a couple of extra bits. If anyone wants one, they can come to Memphis with me.

One thing I haven't got is a F/S dagger. I have a copy of a first pattern, which was probabally made in India in the '50s (which quite an item of it's own), but not a genuine one.

There are many later models on the market but not one which will entice me. I do know the location of Fairbairns Sam Browne belt and some of his knives though - not that it can do me any good :(

michael
09-27-2004, 05:34 PM
Coops, I'll take one of the British versions of "Get Tough". I'll be in Memphis too, and look forward to meeting you. I've discovered the WWII combatives a year or so ago after a lifetime of martial arts and have been training it heavily. It's amazing to come full circle and discover that the basics as shown in the WWII combatives are really the highest order of combatives training.

Matthew Temkin
09-27-2004, 05:45 PM
Coops, I'll take one of the British versions of "Get Tough". I'll be in Memphis too, and look forward to meeting you. I've discovered the WWII combatives a year or so ago after a lifetime of martial arts and have been training it heavily. It's amazing to come full circle and discover that the basics as shown in the WWII combatives are really the highest order of combatives training.
Coops gave me a copy last year.
The main addition to GET TOUGH is the rifle section, which is excellent an eye opener, since so much there would be considered by many to be "modern" without the fancy names.
PS..what the heck is a quid?

michael
09-27-2004, 05:47 PM
I've got KOGK and Cold Steel, but haven't gotten this one yet. I am always looking to expand my collection.

Terry Trahan
09-27-2004, 06:20 PM
Hey Coops,
Weren't you supposed to be sending one of those my way
a while ago,the book,I mean,not the knee to the inner thigh :D ?
Hope you're doing better.

Coops
09-29-2004, 02:36 PM
Terry

I'm sorry, Yes you should have a copy. It is here in my sweaty palm as I speak. What can I say - nothing 'cos it will all be excuses :) I am about to post somethings about IPDTA privately to the A list so I will send yours as well. I'm sorry mate.

It's amasing that in this world of people talking total bollocks all the time, that such a small book has so much truth in it. The same could be said for STL of course.

Oops sorry. 'Bollocks' is something politicians and media people speak. It's not an offensive word as it's Anglo Saxon in origin.

As Matt said, the only additions are thr rifle section and that's because the UK and the US used different weapons.

However, It's printed as it was printed in war torn England. It has a brown paper cover and even says, 'War Economy Standard' inside the cover. I just find it fascinating and a trip into a country completely gripped by rationing and War.

Matt - You will never become a naturalised Englishman if you don't know what a 'quid' is. It's a pound () and is nearly double the dollar. So this British version. SORRY!. This ORIGINAL :D version of AIF would cost about $18

Matthew Temkin
09-29-2004, 09:19 PM
The quid I can deal with.
It's smoking the fags that still gives me a problem.
Not to mention tinkling on a guy named Lou...

Terry Trahan
09-30-2004, 04:29 AM
That's alright,Martin.
It took me awhile to get you the video,right?
I just got an autographed copy of Col. Applegate's
"Combat use of the double edged fighting knife",from his wife.
It was autographed by her,not the Col.
But it was such a great heartfelt gift from Carole,I love it.

Coops
10-02-2004, 04:34 AM
Slavo just sent me a PDF of Fairbairns manual of knife fighting, by Wm. Cassidy. There are no illustrations in it though, but I'm working through the text. Have you got a hard copy of it Terry?

Terry Trahan
10-02-2004, 07:42 AM
No I don't,Martin.
I have it in my computer,and think it was pretty interesting.
Although,this document is one of the ones people started hunting Cassidy over.Either he stole it,or made it up,and tagged Fairbairns name on it.
Still some good stuff in it,though.

Coops
10-03-2004, 04:33 AM
Sadly, the man who could tell us is no longer with us. Peter R would have known. However, his partner in CODA, Paul Child might have some info. I'll ask him and get back to you.

kforbus
10-03-2004, 07:52 AM
I would also check out Lee Aldridge at Reality Based Fighting Concepts .http://www.fightingconcepts.com/pages/850982/index.htm

michael
10-03-2004, 08:32 AM
I would also check out Lee Aldridge at Reality Based Fighting Concepts .http://www.fightingconcepts.com/pages/850982/index.htm
Lee would be an excellent addition. He uses reality based training with the Bulletman suits.

jimmyfatwing
01-07-2005, 01:57 AM
There was a huge post some years back on either Knifeforum or Bladeforum about WW2 Combatives - a who's who so to speak. Covered the usual names pluss the extra's such as Hipkiss, Wood etc.

There's now a lot of material on the web if your willing to search - go to google and put in a few names / terms and you'll get a lot of info.

Re: Cobra Manual / Cassidy - he's just been posting over at SDF in the weapons section and has been answering some Q's. Worth a read maybe!?

michael
01-07-2005, 06:49 AM
Re: Cobra Manual / Cassidy - he's just been posting over at SDF in the weapons section and has been answering some Q's. Worth a read maybe!?
That's been an interesting discussion!;)

DaveJames
01-07-2005, 07:20 AM
Yea, I just went back and read thru the postings,Mr.and I use the term loosely Cassidy, doesn't seem to be well thought of.

Looks like I'm th boob on this one, extra pages have popped up over there from when I read it and all is flowing along well, he has answered several questions and straighten out alot of stuff.

Matthew Temkin
01-07-2005, 08:33 AM
I had a long talk about this with Applegate back in 1996 at his ranch.
According to Applegate, Cassidy contacted him in 1977 about doing a bio on Fairbairn.
Applegate gave him access to his files, then financed his trip to England where he was given the red carpet treatment by Doretha, Fairbairn's daughter.
Cassidy repaid her by stealing her blind of Fairbairn's old manuals and some choice items.
One of which was .45 caried by Fairbairn.
Some of which Cassidy sold as reprints via his company INTERSERVICE PUBLISHING back in 1982--which is where I bought my reprint of Scientific Self Defense.
All of this was later verified by Peter Robins, now deceased, who's word could be taken as gold.
Applegate and Peter Lund did indeed republish Cassidy's old books, sans royalities, in an attemptt o flush him out, and by 1996 Applegate had a PI out looking for him.
Interesting that Cassidy has resurfaced.
Don't know what he is up to but I hope that he decides to republish some of what he took.

jimmyfatwing
01-07-2005, 12:17 PM
Think people would bite his hand off for Scientific Self Defence ;) Though I think a lot would also be a little suprised by it's content!

Do you know what else came out if Interservice - this was before I was doing anything combat related, let alone looking into messrs Fairbairn, Syskes, Biddle etc.