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View Full Version : "A man's gotta know his limitations", or Higginbotham's humbling scenario.



Agencyman
08-11-2004, 05:01 PM
Subject: Jim Higgenbotham's Dynamic Marksmanship "classifier" Scenario. It's OK for you to predict the future here, but you're hopefully going to "Do it", not just talk about it, and then talk results!

John Woo's thread about our capabilities intrigues me, and while we can't just go out and get ourselves into a firefight for comparative purposes, there is a yardstick out there. It is quick, inexpensive, and highly applicable in that it is designed for simulating dangerous encounters out in the real world of fast/furious life/death situations, not long courses of fire. Still not hard core, real training, but worth the effort. Often!

Jim Higgenbotham, a member here and an instructor with Rangemaster, once e-mailed to me a tactical self-test that was comprised of 4 strings of just a few rounds each, on only two targets, but was all about speed, movement, shooting on the move to simulate getting to cover. Included a diagram to help you set up.

He has allowed the posting of this attachment where we could all print it out, then---

---Here's the challenge part! Post your times and scores. I know in my heart that no one would lie about this...http://www.warriortalk.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

If you have a range facility with an "Action" area, or are even able to get some rural space to yourself for some shooting, I hope this is within everyone's reach.

Bruce

Low Drag
08-12-2004, 08:08 PM
Is this with an IPSC or IDPA target?
Does it matter?

I will give it a shot, thanks.

BTW, I picked up a drill that measures your splits and your ability to fire multiple shots on target. It takes into account your power factor (wieght and velocity). I put it in a spread sheet for easy calc. I'll post is all if some one wants it. I can't recall who developed it off the top of my head but it's in the instruction section.

DaveJames
08-12-2004, 08:44 PM
Have basicly used this drill for several years now.If you want to add some fun or stress and reload drills our malfunction drills to it

garrettwc
08-13-2004, 10:33 PM
Is this with an IPSC or IDPA target?
Does it matter?

I will give it a shot, thanks.

BTW, I picked up a drill that measures your splits and your ability to fire multiple shots on target. It takes into account your power factor (wieght and velocity). I put it in a spread sheet for easy calc. I'll post is all if some one wants it. I can't recall who developed it off the top of my head but it's in the instruction section.

The IDPA target is the best choice. I believe Jim designed this to be used with the Rangemaster target which has a much smaller (4x5 I think) a-zone. I don't remember the exact measurements , perhaps Tom Givens will chime in.

That second drill sounds like one of Jim's too. From the ready five shots as fast as you can, but all must be in the A-zone. Power factor, hits, and time combine in a formula to equal your score. It's called the Marksmanship Index.

Low Drag
08-14-2004, 06:05 AM
The IDPA target is the best choice. I believe Jim designed this to be used with the Rangemaster target which has a much smaller (4x5 I think) a-zone. I don't remember the exact measurements , perhaps Tom Givens will chime in.

That second drill sounds like one of Jim's too. From the ready five shots as fast as you can, but all must be in the A-zone. Power factor, hits, and time combine in a formula to equal your score. It's called the Marksmanship Index.
I'm at home now and yes, it is from Jim Higgenbotham. The version I saw used a standard sheet of paper with a rectangle the size of 1/4 the sheet in the center.

It does give the user a reasonable idea if their handgun cartridge combo is working for them. I carry a 10mm and hear a never ending crescendo from fans of the .40S&W about follow up shots.

For this drill I guess I'll have to use IPSC targets.

Agencyman
08-15-2004, 04:27 PM
I hadn't ever shot a course that involved moving. All my years of shooting were long range (200m) metallic silhouette, a bit of PPC, a bit of NRA bullseye.

I was just having my eyes opened about these action sports, USPSA, and IDPA, getting my 1911, but never having so much as seen a match...

OK!!http://www.warriortalk.com/images/smilies/frown.gif Several months ago, when I tried this, I only barely made Marksman, but with three recent action matches under my belt, I intend to improve A LOT. "I'll be back!". (I had to spend too much time preparing for hurricanes, and then undoing it all, to have any spare time this weekend).

About those targets. Why not shoot with the 8.5 x 11" sheet of paper with 1/4 page centered, lightly outlined only, on a cardoard rectangle target? That way it would be easier to improvise. And it would be interesting, with time, recoil, and accuracy all involved.

Jim, if you read this, what is the point system? Lose .5 sec. for on paper, but outside the center rectange, another .5 gone if you miss the paper entirely?

I look forward to the results.

Bruce

Jim Higginbotham
08-15-2004, 05:53 PM
Greetings guys. Let me see if I can address the questions but I have slept since I came up with this so bear with me and realize that I might not recall it perfectly.

When I came up with this test we were using the IDPA target a lot and the ratings are based on that. The Scoring area outside the 8 inch "-0" is 12X18 inches (with diagonal corners) and that is labled the "-1" (which would add .5 seconds for any hit in this area). The rest of the target body is 18X24 with diagonal corners and is the "-3) which would add 1.5 seconds for each hit in this zone.

If you are making a substitute for this target, a paper plate (usually 8.5 to 9") on a paper bag would suffice I think. Hits off the plate but on the bag would add .5 seconds. Hopefully we could keep all the hits within the bag but if you put one right off the edge it could be a 1.5 second added.

Another option would be to use the USPSA target and add .5 seconds to your total time for each hit in the "C" zone and 1.5 seconds for each hit in the "D" zone.


The RangeMaster RM-Q is the target that has scoring zones roughly the equivalent of the 8.5X11 paper with a 4.5X5.5 center zone (which is simply a sheet folded twice). These have less than half the area of the corresponding zones on the IDPA target. While I like it much better I would have to redo the rating system for this target. If I get time I will look into it.

Hope this helps some, I don't get over here very often (to my regret) so feel free to email me if you have a question,

God bless,
Jim Higginbotham

PS I am attaching the rationale for this little exercise, hope it comes through.

Low Drag
08-15-2004, 05:57 PM
Thanks for the reply!

I'm off to the range Tue!

Low Drag
08-17-2004, 12:25 PM
---Here's the challenge part! Post your times and scores. I know in my heart that no one would lie about this...http://www.warriortalk.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

If you have a range facility with an "Action" area, or are even able to get some rural space to yourself for some shooting, I hope this is within everyone's reach.

Bruce
OK, as promised itís Tue and I went to the range today to shoot this drill.

I did the first string COLD, I only fired 10 rds of a new load Iíve started using at 10 yds slow fire to verify the grouping. Gun used, Glock 29 with mid-warm level 10mm loads, e.g., not quite as warm as Win Silver Tips.
Target: IPSC. Score 0 for Aís, .5 for Cís and 1.5 for Dís, hope that's the right scale to use.

Run #1: With cover garment 81.34, shooting doubles on each target.

Run #2: With cover garment 72.32, shooting one shot on each and repeat to get double. (When I practice engaging multiple targets I donít shoot doubles. I figure that no matter how fast I am BG #2 will be able to hit me if I try to double tap BG #1.) I had one stoppage I had to clear and figured I just post it as is anyway.

Run #3: No cover garment 84.5, last run of the day after finishing other shooting. I think I could have run this a bit faster but may have pulled some more Cs.

I can post the times/scores if anyone likes.

Whoís next to post their results????

Agencyman
08-20-2004, 10:41 AM
Hot time, but good fun. Summer rules, no cover garmet in Florida!

Shot the first run-through still at the bottom of marksman, (72.8), shooting too slow and careful.

Then I picked up the pace, missed a bunch and had to shoot extras. Still made Sharpshooter, though, (83.3). No explanation for why the right target was clean, the left splattered, they were shot in different order...

After one each of the USPSA and IDPA matches next month, I surely can improve some more. I intend to revisit this faily often, not practice it to death.

Low Drag
08-20-2004, 02:04 PM
Thanks for posting too!

Anyone else?! I'll work in this drill a bit to see if I can break into expert range just for fun. BUT, I'll only count my "cold" runs as a gauge of my ability.

Now I need to run across town to get more IPSC targets. I'm all out, I've been making my own using an IPSC to cut out from but changing the scoring. I used an 8" circle for A zone in mid chest and a 10" wide oval for the C zone. I used paper plates for each.

Barry in IN
08-23-2004, 11:08 AM
For those of you who know more about computers than I (everybody).....
I can't open the attached file from the original post. I get an error, saying this program will be shut down, which it does. I tried just opening it; and I tried saving it, then opening.
What is it on, Wordpad? I don't think we have that.

garrettwc
08-23-2004, 11:39 AM
Both of the documents posted to the thread are MS Word documents.