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View Full Version : The AK at 600 Yards / frozen chosin AAR



Jack-O
01-07-2008, 11:02 AM
Worland Wy, this weekend. we had 16 people show, 3 WT'ers. guns shot included, ar-15, 3 AK's, M1 Garands, M14, AR-10, SVT-40, XCR, Rem 700 sniper.
day 1
classic iron sighted rifles performed as expected on the 300-50 match. with the garand taking a 240 out of 300 and the SVT-40 139 out of 300. the AR-10 scoped took high honors tho, beating the garand shooter.

in the human wave attack, the garands performed much lower than the 20-30 round mag fed rifles getting off less than 75 rounds in 3 min. the mag feds did markedly better with the highest score going to an AK that managed 98 rounds and 89% hits. The XCR was on the way to domination when it Kaboomed.

day 2
we just sighted our guns and farted around on steel out to 600. Now I know this defy's conventional wisdom and everyone was really amazed at the results, BUUUT heres what we saw the AK do.
We sighted out to 300 on pulled and marked targets using stock IRON sights.

We moved back to 400 and proceeded to put rounds on steel with a spotter calling shots. using a Romanian wasr with a romy folder I was able to get about 85% hits on steel from prone with no problem. a few flyers and some shooter error were mostly responsible for misses. results were repeated by 4 other shooters on my gun and a VEPR as well.

At 500 we attempted again. we adjusted sights using only the factory ramp settings throughout the experiment having zeroed earlier out to 300. once again we were able to obtain 80% hits with relative ease using the "200 yard" AK. once again we verified using another shooter.

Back to 600!! once again spotted shots with wasr/folder. despite my best efforts I couldn't keep them on the steel more that 20% of the time.
600 seems to be the crossover point on a mansized target using ball ammo and service grade rifle. I have confirmed this with several rifles and feel that after 500 one must use a much more capable gun and ammo to consistently make hits. a rest/pack/bipod is alomost required at this range as well.

Ammo I was using was 762x39 Wolf 122gr HP black box. steel was 16"w x 36"h shaped like a sillouete. 5 mph half value wind at 25f and 4050ft elev. with a slight cow manure taste to the air.

comments
-the x39 was not really whacking the gong at these ranges and you could usually only hear a slight 'tink' it was definitly running out of gas at these ranges.
-the factory ramp sight settings seemed to be right on.
-the front sight is wider than the target, but by using a 6 o'clock hold and centering the target on the sight post, you can still be fairly accurate.
-i was using a pack and the mag for a rest. sometimes a loose mag would cause a failure to feed if i put pressure on the mag wrong. this might be gun related or mag related. not sure.
-I have wrapped the romy folder with some gauze then overwrapped with electrical tape. it's actually quite comfortable, looks fine and does not interfere with operation. the stock is not wobly in the least and fairly comfortable to shoot overall.
-the WASR was bone stock except for the folder, and prints about 4-5 MOA when i checked it with this ammo a coupla weeks ago.
-whoever told you that you cant hit with an AK at 500, lied to you. It's VERY doable.
-hopefully one of the other guys will back me upon this so I dont look like a big liar.

Jack

Gabe Suarez
01-07-2008, 11:08 AM
-the WASR was bone stock except for the folder, and prints about 4-5 MOA when i checked it with this ammo a coupla weeks ago.
-whoever told you that you cant hit with an AK at 500, lied to you. It's VERY doable.

Jack,

I think that the anti-AK crowd (read that "gun mafia") has lied to us about all manner of things, and NOT just about the AK.

jcart
01-07-2008, 11:21 AM
Nice to know the AK is capable reaching out. Now its pretty much a human problem.

bae
01-07-2008, 11:25 AM
Great writeup Jack, thanks!

crebralfix
01-07-2008, 11:54 AM
J--

Would you be able to test this using better ammo? I was thinking some Cor-Bon or match grade ammo. I'd like to see if that WASR's groups tighten up any.

Grape Ape
01-07-2008, 12:22 PM
You must be wrong. You can't hit anything with an AK, much less a WASR at 500 yards.

Oh and a folding stock, those are too uncomfortable to use.

:p

Unfortunately all I can test out to so far is 350.

Good shooting.

Pict
01-07-2008, 01:19 PM
"with a slight cow manure taste to the air"

Now that there is your essential element to good shooting.

I do just fine with my AK to 300 but at 500 - 600 I'd be minute of SUV. Next time I get the opportunity I will take it more seriously. Mac

Rob72
01-07-2008, 01:55 PM
Ya know... the supplier for the group-buy on .223 had reportedly said they weren't doing 7.62x39 because they didn't feel they had a sufficiently accurate rifle to test from. I got a Rossi single-shot in 7.62 Russ to go with my AKs... its not Krieger barreled, but I think it would serve.;)

Jack-O
01-07-2008, 02:10 PM
J--

Would you be able to test this using better ammo? I was thinking some Cor-Bon or match grade ammo. I'd like to see if that WASR's groups tighten up any.

I dont have any corbon, what other ammo would you suggest? I can try with some american remington stuff I think or maybe some UMC or federal. The wolf was fairly consistent tho. If you send me 20 rounds of whatever, Then I will be happy to put it on paper for you. I have tried the wolf, some cheetah, and barnaul and thats all so far results were best with the wolf but very close to the others. I may try some yugo stuff sooner or later. My results on the 16" steel would lead me to beleive that it was closer to 3-4 MOA than 4-5 MOA as I stated above, but I do try to understate rather than artificially inflate the numbers.

NOTE ON VOLLEY FIRE

We aslo tried messing around with some volley fire where all shooters concentrated on one target and let off 3 rounds. we had at least 50% hits at 600 yards. I'm betting that even just 3 AK shooters at 600 yards concentrating on a single target could provide a beaten zone of 4'x4' and anything in that zone would be quite dead. volley fire is something I hadnt considered before and was brought up by the WSSA president as something they had played with 'back in the day' it seems like an interesting concept and would further increase the effective range of a small squad of partisans equipped only with the humble AK.

Imagine what a squad of partisan snipers or riflemen could do with some volley fire!!

This is a concept that we should look into further. even at closer ranges, this "team tactic" could be an extrememly effective tool to ensure target destruction.

crebralfix
01-07-2008, 03:17 PM
I have 20 rounds of Corbon 7.62x39 125 gr. JHP that was given to me at CRG in August.

If you could just group it on paper and post the target here, that'd be great.


PM me.

***

I really like the concept of volley fire.

RMMc
01-07-2008, 03:55 PM
Jack, on the 600 range test at 20%. What kind of over-all pattern were you getting? Was the backstop set up that you could see how close the misses were?

Razorback
01-07-2008, 03:56 PM
We sighted out to 300 on pulled and marked targets using stock IRON sights. . . .using a Romanian wasr with a romy folder. . .Ammo I was using was 762x39 Wolf 122gr HP black box. . .
OK, so with what is generally considered the crappiest AK with the crappiest ammo, you were able to hit at 500 yards with irons sights with regularity. So much for "only ARs and battle rifles can do that. . ."


NOTE ON VOLLEY FIRE

We aslo tried messing around with some volley fire where all shooters concentrated on one target and let off 3 rounds. we had at least 50% hits at 600 yards. I'm betting that even just 3 AK shooters at 600 yards concentrating on a single target could provide a beaten zone of 4'x4' and anything in that zone would be quite dead. volley fire is something I hadnt considered before and was brought up by the WSSA president as something they had played with 'back in the day' it seems like an interesting concept and would further increase the effective range of a small squad of partisans equipped only with the humble AK.

Imagine what a squad of partisan snipers or riflemen could do with some volley fire!!

This is a concept that we should look into further. even at closer ranges, this "team tactic" could be an extrememly effective tool to ensure target destruction.

There was some posts on the KISSATA forum about this. They figured that a regular Joe can't really afford a "sniper rifle" or usually even a battle rifle. So why not take advantage of all those cheap Mosin Nagants and their cheap steel-core ammo. Get a squad/group/whatever together. Since this is guerrilla warfare, you're not going to be humping 80 pound rucks. So why not carry 8-9 pounds of MN, and maybe 15 rounds of ammo in addition to your AK and 5 mags. You target high value targets like "enemy" radio shacks/tents, fuel tanks, etc. Pick 3 targets for your raid. Each guy fires 5 rounds at each of the targets, volley style, then slings the MNs and hustles out of there.

Jack-O
01-07-2008, 05:35 PM
crebral,
you have PM

Silk,
The best I could tell from the berm dust hits I was holding within a foot or so around the target with a flyer going about 3-4 feet off somewhere. the main "beaten zone" was about 3'x3' give or take a little. at 600 yards 4-5 MOA is 24"-30" add sight and shooter error, plus wind and the drop below subsonic and things get dismal real quick for accuracy.
at 600 yards the steel was about 1/3 the width of the front sight.

gilmoreaz
01-07-2008, 06:39 PM
comments
-the x39 was not really whacking the gong at these ranges and you could usually only hear a slight 'tink' it was definitly running out of gas at these ranges.
Jack
Jack,

Could some of the "slight tink" be caused by being 500 to 600 yards away (and wearing hearing protection) in addition to the bullet "running out of gas" ?

Just wondering . . .

Gilmore
P.S. Great review
.
.

1034me
01-07-2008, 06:55 PM
:rolleyes: That 308 Siaga is starting to sound less and less attractive. It sounds like I need to spend time practicing with 762x39 AK’s. Thanks for the range report.

RMMc
01-07-2008, 06:59 PM
crebral,
you have PM

Silk,
The best I could tell from the berm dust hits I was holding within a foot or so around the target with a flyer going about 3-4 feet off somewhere. the main "beaten zone" was about 3'x3' give or take a little. at 600 yards 4-5 MOA is 24"-30" add sight and shooter error, plus wind and the drop below subsonic and things get dismal real quick for accuracy.
at 600 yards the steel was about 1/3 the width of the front sight.

All considered.... Thats pretty dang good!!! Thanks for the review!

Jack-O
01-07-2008, 09:10 PM
I think that in general most people underestimate the capabilities of thier guns. these 'pariah' guns are quite capable of long range kills, mostly the blame lies on the shooters not being educated to thier own potential. This stuff aint that hard to do. the shots I was making, I wasnt eve using the sling and was just resting the guns mag on a rifle BOB.

I really believe that most folks can do this if they wouldonly try, and if they would just learn the fundamentals like Natural point of aim and trigger pull.

heres an exercise for you
set up a target at 25 yards with several 1" circles or squares. If you can put all your rounds on that square then you can hit a man out to 500 yards. In fact I will say from experience that hitting that SOB'ing square at 25 is much harder that at 500 yards. keeing your roundsin that square is in fact 4MOA, which by the armchair commando's ruler is exactly 3 MOA too much for a "real" rifle!!

Practical accuracy is a good deal different than target accuracy. I have a rifle that will shoot into 1" at 100, but when I run it on these courses all that capacity get forgotten, and I'm darn happy to see a nice 4-5" group on target under field conditions and stress. Sure the extra accuracy helps a bit, but it's brutally obvious where the error comes from!!

one thing thats easy to forget is that while a one shot kill is cool, that round that hits an arm or a leg puts the shooter into a defensive mode and thus 'out of action'. that means less rounds in your direction. Only hits count and any hit is better than a deadly accurate miss.

Tom Cornelius
01-07-2008, 09:31 PM
I've shot at 600 yards with a pre ban Norinco. That rifle could hit a man sized target at 600 yards. There is alot of sophistication that AK rifles have built in to them. No, it was not what critics would call precision shooting, but it would have produced lethal results. The rear sight was
well regulated... Simple yet lethal at all practical ranges...

choirboy
01-08-2008, 07:11 AM
I have shot several AK's in 7.62x39 at 500. I had a 4x8 ply wood target backer and a 16" steel clanger made for using shepherd scopes.
I bulk cut newspapers into a 2/3 torso target and use "ground" paint to make them orange. I also paint the clanger.

I use old packing paper from ups orders or if I run out I a roll of 24 inch auto painter's masking paper on the whole target board. I both glue and staple it so it lasts for several shooting sessions. My frigging cows will lick the targets for the glue if the are "mowing" my range.

The best group I got was from one of the Polytechs which was 26-28 inches. I did put several hits on the target. As I recall I ran an even 100 rounds using clintonista 5 round mags which are handy on the bench. They are also the only AK mags that I tossed because of malfunctions in multiple guns.

The AK winner was a Norinco in .223. It would hold 16-20 inch groups. When I shot 16 inch steel I had multiple pings in 3-30 shot mags (no 5 shot for the .223).

When shooting the 16 inch target I had to put my site under it and the site was 3x the target so there was some "guesstimation" in site picture.
All of these were preheart attack/strokes.

I still cling to my beloved M1-A's but I sure as hell would not want to be a 500 yard target of a handful of skilled guys aiming AK's

Choirboy

Alfred E Neuman
01-08-2008, 09:43 AM
"with a slight cow manure taste to the air"

Now that there is your essential element to good shooting.

I do just fine with my AK to 300 but at 500 - 600 I'd be minute of SUV. Next time I get the opportunity I will take it more seriously. Mac

Out here in Utah where you can see a bit further due to lack of trees, I can hit 600 yards with an AK no problem. I have shot 800 yards also but you have to be an artillery man and range them in.

I can probably also hit with an AR at that distance but you cannot really see much of a splash against the dirt due to the tiny bullet. I wonder if that is a real life differentiator....being able to see the impact of the bullet so that you can change your aim. Certainly the 308 hits with more authority and you tend to know where you hit. But I really have to look to see an AR hit; especially when there is some snow out there.

Another issue is heavy clothing on the badguys. Which bullet would penetrate thick clothing better? I had a former Ruskie soldier that fought in Afghan say that many preferred the heavier bullet for that reason (versus the 5.46)

I don't see much difference in wind deflection between the 5.56 and the 7.62x39 at that range. If the wind is blowing, it always takes a couple of shots to range it in.

My problem with the AK...and I have a note into Fuller... is that I want a nice flattop to put a scope or reddot on. My two Vectors do not come with side rail and I do not have any good options that I have found.

Gabe Suarez
01-08-2008, 09:46 AM
For a conventional scope have Jim put a side plate on it. There are very good scope mounts available that you can use with any scope

jem375
01-08-2008, 09:53 AM
Why does it seem like every email I get now in the Warrior News is about an AK? Crap, the AR's and M1A's make those things look sick, even the garand does better.....I traded my AK for an AR and haven't looked back at all, I do own 2 SKS's which I like to shoot but to compare them to the others is silly...Hell, the caliber is no better than a 30-30 ....

Sharps74
01-08-2008, 10:54 AM
Why does it seem like every email I get now in the Warrior News is about an AK? Crap, the AR's and M1A's make those things look sick, even the garand does better.....I traded my AK for an AR and haven't looked back at all, I do own 2 SKS's which I like to shoot but to compare them to the others is silly...Hell, the caliber is no better than a 30-30 ....

I love my AR's and I can get my 11.5" SBR on target at 500+ yards. The point here is that almost NO ONE will give the AK the attention, credit and praise its due. You like your AR better than the AK you had? Great!!! Learn all you can from Suarez International and apply it to the AR platform but your in a forum about AKs getting news letters from a teacher who LOVES AKs and wants more folks to understand the advantages of the AK system. Everything that can be said about or done with the AR has been said and done. In this country the AK is not fully understood and its advantages over the AR are things no one cares about or appreciates unless they are on a real battle field (extreme reliability while extremely dirty, penetration through cover, beating skulls in, etc.)

Now, before your post leads to this threat getting hijacked lets keep this in context with the topic here. At 500 yards the 123 gr 7.62x39 is more comparable to taking a hit from a .380 acp or 9mm and the 5.56 is like getting hit from a heavy 22LR or 22 magnum. Most folks won't give the AK a chance in hell past 200 yards and here we are talking about 600 yard hits (my 10" Yugo M92 Krink is EASY to hit with out to 400 yards:D ). Now some ARs are CRAZY accurate with heavy match ammo out to 600 yards but its terminal performance is pathetic past 200 yards (less if your barrel is shorter than 16"). Regarding your comments on the M1 and M1A in the context of the topic being discussed here, well that's like breaking in on a conversation about how heavy a load our pickups can haul and saying "well my 18 wheeler makes your pickups look sick". No Sh!t Sherlock!!!

Gabe Suarez
01-08-2008, 10:56 AM
The long and short of it -

Kalashnikov Forum: 1,060 threads with 13,554 posts
Ar-M4 Forum: 182 threads 2,827 posts
M14/Garand Forum: 49 threads with 579 posts
FAL Forum: 69 threads with 1023 posts

When this changes, so will my focus. As to the rest of your post -

1). the AR's and M1A's make those things look sick,

Show me why this is the case (in a seperate thread please). No gun school modern technique instructor dogma either. tell me exactly why this is the case.

2). even the garand does better.

Again...show me why this is. And show me how you train with your rifle.

3). ..I traded my AK for an AR and haven't looked back at all, I do own 2 SKS's which I like to shoot but to compare them to the others is silly...Hell, the caliber is no better than a 30-30

You obviously don't care for "tham dar pesky commie terror guns", and prefer US made stuff. While I think we have put the myth of "inaccurate to rest with the capable help of Jack A Sol, I'm stunned to not have heard something about "ergonomics" while we were at it.

But tell me...have you attended a class with your rifle?
Have you carried it in the field for an extended period of time?

Seriously...please educate us in a seperate thread why your guns are better than our guns. If you are correct and can convince me, I will sell all of my AKs and go buy Garands instead.

Gabe Suarez
01-08-2008, 11:02 AM
See the thread I began about this and for the education only. http://www.warriortalk.com/showthread.php?t=33345

This thread will now continue on course......

Cafe_Racer
01-08-2008, 11:59 AM
Good review Jack,

The conventional military analysis on the AK47, 7.62x39 platform is that it's effective range is 300M, shooting at a prone or moving target. It's not considered effective beyond this because your oponent, asuming he has a weapon with of greater effective range, will likely take you out before you can score a hit.

That's not to say you can't put rounds down on a target at ranges in excess of this threashold but it becomes increasingly difficult for the average individual soldier (no spotter) , using the weapon in standard issue spec.

The design does have a lot of intrinsic mechanical accuracy, short rigid barrel, friing from a closed bolt and locked breech. It was designed in the context of mechanized warefare, where the soldier is delivered to battle by the APC/BMP and so was never optimised for longer ranges.

A RSA trigger pack, scope and Black hills match ammo may make it effective out to 500M.

SonnyP
01-08-2008, 12:00 PM
In previous life I've seen moving targets hit at ranges of 300-450 meters... With both 5.45 and 7.62. I had to qualify on moving targets (shooting burst- not semi) at 300... With stock iron sights.
Also in previous life I have heard anecdotal stories from those who have been and done... stories of 500+ meters shots with intended targets not complaining of non-sufficient energy transfer...
But what do I know...

jtiii
01-08-2008, 12:06 PM
I had to get in on this. I went out earlier and busted up some steel and punched some paper from 25-600 meters. Shot my AK's- a Vector & a WASR 10/63, M1A1 w/ gen. 3 mount/sightron scope, a Bushmaster V-match and the DPMS 16" Bull barrel. Did real good despite the wind from the storn thats blowing through here in central TX. I shot the AK's the most about 400 rds(Wolf CM FMJ). At 600 I hit 10/30 w/ the Vector and 8/30 w/ the WASR after I had my poi/poa down. Yes they where pretty hot too. 500 meters was a lot better, almost 50% for both guns. Everything else is scoped and did much better w/ the M1A1 hitting 7/10 w/ match ammo at 600M. My AR's fared only 50%. The wind was gusting:dope: . All targets were standard size silhoutes. Tonight I walk the creek to the river (hog hunting) and it will be my AK as weapon of choice. I may scope the WASR later to increase it's capability.

Hummermole
01-08-2008, 12:54 PM
Gents,

I also attended this match due to the prompting of Jack. First time ever shooting a match at these ranges.

Shot the 300-50 with my M1A and scored a 201/300. I was very surprised as I don't have much time on my M1A but I did have a lot of help from Jack and a couple of other participants which was much, much appreciated.

Shot the frozen Chosin portion of the match with my Robinson Arms Vepr 7.62x39 shooting 7.62x39 Wolf 122gr FMJ black box. It is an AK built on an RPK receiver and in practice it is more accurate than my SAR or most "standard" AKs I've shot. I did not do so well on this event as my sighting in at home was off. Doh! Only 8 hits out of 70 rounds fired. Needless to say I lost but I did rectify things on Sunday.

Jack and prariefire helped me to get my VEPR properly sighted in for the out to 600 yd shoot. I figured past 300 yds we would just be slinging lead at the general direction of the steel. Man was I surprised! At 400 yds I went through a 30 rd mag, missed only a couple of my first shots and then proceeded to hit with the rest of my mag. I heard someone behind me say after the 20th round or so that "this is boring.":D

Shot about 80% at 500yds. Jack covered the rest in more detail than I can recount. I do know that most of the others still there were quite impressed (and surprised) with what an AK can do at range, especially with Jacks AK. And copy the fact that the targets were not moving or making themselves smaller, but just the fact it can be done is heart-warming.

I had a great time at this shoot and am glad I went. I know it is a long way for most people, but I would highly recommend attending one of these events. The range was good and it was a good mix of shooters and just all around good people. Heck, I drove 6 hours just to do this and will do it again. These matches are also a good way to test out your gear and see what works and what doesn't. Plus it was cold and wet so good practice for being miserable and still shooting.

-Gilmoreaz, other shooters shooting .308 would still get a nice “clang” when hitting steel at 600 yards. The tink was definitely from the 7.62 x 39 from 400-600 yds. And I was wearing Peltors and could hear the “tink” just fine.

I want to say thanks to Jack A Sol for advertising the match and to prariefire for showing me another way to get my AK topcover on, as well as other help this relative long range newbie needed.

Chan

gilmoreaz
01-08-2008, 01:40 PM
-Gilmoreaz, other shooters shooting .308 would still get a nice “clang” when hitting steel at 600 yards. The tink was definitely from the 7.62 x 39 from 400-600 yds. And I was wearing Peltors and could hear the “tink” just fine. . . "

Chan

Thanks Chan. I was just wondering.

.

DC950
01-08-2008, 04:18 PM
In previous life I've seen moving targets hit at ranges of 300-450 meters... With both 5.45 and 7.62. I had to qualify on moving targets (shooting burst- not semi) at 300... With stock iron sights.
Also in previous life I have heard anecdotal stories from those who have been and done... stories of 500+ meters shots with intended targets not complaining of non-sufficient energy transfer...
But what do I know...

well, you obviously don't know how much better a Garand would be ;).

Thanks for the AK training in Chatanooga. I'm practicing all the positions against my little boys with their new Christmas present dart rifles. Pretty good room clearing training against those guys, much better than by yourself.

jcart
01-08-2008, 04:37 PM
Jack,

If this has been answered already forgive the question.
What were the barrel lenghts on the AK's used to reach that 600yd target?
I am interested in the theory of long barrel vs. short barrel accuracy that was mentioned in a previous thread about using a 308 GSR 16" vs 21".
Personal preference is the shorter barrel with flash suppression.
I drove up to Krebs and looked at a 21" yesterday, gotta admit it does look nice.

Hummermole
01-08-2008, 08:49 PM
What were the barrel lenghts on the AK's used to reach that 600yd target?
I am interested in the theory of long barrel vs. short barrel accuracy that was mentioned in a previous thread about using a 308 GSR 16" vs 21".
Personal preference is the shorter barrel with flash suppression.


jcart,

My Vepr has the 16" barrel with flash suppressor.

Chan

Prairie Fire
01-08-2008, 11:58 PM
I was there both days, and the long-range AK hit capabilities on the second day were truly impressive. The hit percentages as previously posted, were not what anybody could call as being done at a slow rate of fire. I estimated the rate as a shot every two seconds.

JaS mentioned a couple of other shooters who were impressed after shooting his WASR at either 4 or 500 yards. Both are in the 55-65yo block shooting iron sights, and both are Master class Service rifle shooters. One of them has been a major force for close to a decade, in putting on the 300-50yard event (the Army's Excellence in Competition match), inviting "civilians" as well as current military. I should have had a camera to record him this past weekend, shooting a folding stock AK with irons at that long distance. The word I'd heard before was that nobody has ever done well on the EIC with an AK or M1 Carbine. And nobody tried last weekend, that will probably change.

There was another rifle worth mentioning, doing the steel gongs from 400-600. It was a nice M700 .260 Remington with 120g SMKs going at about 2900fps. That rifle's beaten zone was centered on the silhouette, and made good clangs thru ear protection, even at distance. The AK's beaten zone resulted in many hits more peripheral on the targets, with less noise and a longer return time. They were still day-ruining hits.

Jack-O
01-09-2008, 05:06 PM
Jack,

If this has been answered already forgive the question.
What were the barrel lenghts on the AK's used to reach that 600yd target?
I am interested in the theory of long barrel vs. short barrel accuracy that was mentioned in a previous thread about using a 308 GSR 16" vs 21".
Personal preference is the shorter barrel with flash suppression.
I drove up to Krebs and looked at a 21" yesterday, gotta admit it does look nice.

every one was using 16" barrels. I suppose that a 20" would do a little better velocity wise.

I will point out that when I ran the numbers on the energy qand velocity at that range, that the 762x39 still has almost EXACTLY what a 9mm 124fmj ball has at the muzzle. the numbers came to 1130 fps and 327 ft lbs. hmmm what a coincidence huh?

I was kinda thinking about things on the way home and several events at the shoot pointed out to me yet again the fact that when you try to make a thing into something it's not you get into trouble with reliability and useability. These are 2 REALLY important things in a rifle.

My advice? The AK is what it is. dont try too hard to make it soomething different, just realize it's strengths and capabilities and use it accordingly (see my 30 cal 4 moa rule of halves). I'm not the first to say this and I wont be the last.

Note to those who could not attend:
These shoots are always a learning expereince for me. I learn as much at these as I do at most gun courses. The broad differences in rifles and gear when compared side by side, really helps shine light into otherwise dark areas. Lots to be gained here with little expense involved.

jack

RMMc
01-09-2008, 07:48 PM
Jack, thanks again for posting this review, great info! It has been very helpful to me during my transition to the dark side.

badman400
01-12-2008, 04:50 AM
Jack I read this thread with interest and pleasure. I have always thought that my two AK's were more capable than most would give them credit for.

Also I see in your original post where there was an XCR doing well until it "kaboomed". Can you elaborate? Do you know what caused it. Ammo for sure, or the gun?

I have an XCR and am so far amazed and delighted with it. Thanks for any more info, and keep up the good work! :cool:

austin
01-12-2008, 08:44 AM
Thanks for the AK training in Chatanooga. I'm practicing all the positions against my little boys with their new Christmas present dart rifles. Pretty good room clearing training against those guys, much better than by yourself.

LOL. That would be fun! I'll have to try with my nephews the next time they visit.

crebralfix
01-12-2008, 09:39 AM
(from one of Jack's posts)


one thing thats easy to forget is that while a one shot kill is cool, that round that hits an arm or a leg puts the shooter into a defensive mode and thus 'out of action'. that means less rounds in your direction. Only hits count and any hit is better than a deadly accurate miss.

One of WT's own, a sniper in the USMC, said that the "one shot, one kill" mantra is so much BS on the modern battlefield. Note the word "battlefield." This is just something to keep in mind because there's too much going on in a real battle.

Jack-O
01-12-2008, 01:05 PM
Jack I read this thread with interest and pleasure. I have always thought that my two AK's were more capable than most would give them credit for.

Also I see in your original post where there was an XCR doing well until it "kaboomed". Can you elaborate? Do you know what caused it. Ammo for sure, or the gun?

I have an XCR and am so far amazed and delighted with it. Thanks for any more info, and keep up the good work! :cool:

The XCR apparently had a bad barrel or chamber. As you know the barrel assembly is a modular part. Robinson was outsourcing these but they were not happy with the product and service they were getting. When I talked to Alex last tuesday about the kaboom. he mentioned that they were actually buying a barrel machine that day. I guess that they will be doing these in house now so they can control the quality and timing better.
If you check out the XCR forum I did a fairly complete writeup on this so others can recognize this problem before it goes bad.
http://xcrforum.com/index.php/topic,525.0/topicseen.html

badman400
01-12-2008, 01:24 PM
Thanks for the info Jack. I'll be checking out your post on the XCR forum. :cool:

ETA: I had already seen this thread and just didn't connect the two. :rolleyes:

One good thing about my Alzheimers; I meet lots of new people. :o

Winchester67
02-02-2008, 08:48 AM
More stories: my uncle Bill was at the Chosin. And he never talked about it. It really bothered him, all these years later. He had first joined the army, then the marines. He was sitting in his foxhole one night in that half sleep that is the best you can get in that situation, and a chi-com actually fell into his foxhole in the dark and the bayonet on the end of his rifle gave him a wicked scar above his eye as he fell. They grappled, and Uncle Bill won.

My grandmother, the hardest woman I ever met, got word her eldest son was missing in action, as many familes did. Unconvinced, my grandparents went out and bought him a new Oldsmobile convertible, and started to write him letters about what was waiting for him at home. He came home to that car.

So, yes, train hard. Every now and again, shoot at ranges you think you will never need. And yes, I mean 100 yards with a handgun. We never know.

one_man_force
07-07-2008, 10:19 AM
Just curious, how is the "Human Wave Drill" done?

Agencyman
07-07-2008, 11:46 AM
I was thinking about what one poster said, re: accuracy and energy, subsonic effects at 500. The 154 SP still maintaining 1272fps at 500, is still supersonic, and energy is impressive compared to the little bullet.

Check out this from a spreadsheet by the Wolf folks.

I am pretty much changing to the 154 for all around use.

Bruce Hinton

Prairie Fire
07-07-2008, 02:29 PM
one man force: The Chinese Human Wave Attack was pretty simple. There was about half a dozen self-resetting poppers set at 200 and 300 yards, IRRC. Three minutes of shooting time, with the shooter in prone. JaS described the results in his first post.

At other venues, the Chinese Human Wave Attack has been done on a military pop-up range. Opportunities there were better than at Worland this past January. JaS pretty much described the way that steel targets were shot at, lacking a resetting popup range, in his first post on this thread.

Sometimes, a military range with rows of popups, is nice. Currently this venue is hard to find for a civilian shooter. So you have to line up the poppers at various ranges and call it good enough, better than most can see and shoot at for twenty bucks per day.

I was one of the Garand shooters referred to on the first post. I shot six enblocs with a couple of misses and stood up quite a bit before the time was up for shooting within that three minute time period. Effective shooting for training goes only so far. Popups and human wave events are not training, they are dessert.

coffinman
11-22-2009, 10:29 AM
that's hot...

BS1988
02-21-2010, 04:24 PM
I've never questioned the rounds ability to hit a target at extended ranges but rather its ability to do any damage. To me that is in question.

I love my AK but will it take the bad guy outa the fight in say a "counter sniper" scenario where you might be forced to engage at a longer range than otherwise planned? However unlikly, we must plan for the worst. I'm concerned that it does not have enough umph to get to the good at these ranges, let alone hit a small target like a head poking up over the cover. To me this is where the AR/m16 begins to take advantage.

Is it wrong of me to level this critisizm against the AK? I can only afford one rifle and more so can only carry one.

EDIT: i was also under the impression that nobody really knows what a bullets energy contributes, We do know that it aids in penetration but in terms of wound cavitation does it do anything?

So really the only negative of the x39 is it just runs outa gas before the 5.56? IMHO the fact that that its a heavier projo alone is a redeeming quality. BTW, Wolf 123gr HP's are pretty impressive.

Good vid, check out his others;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGrq1oP37LI&feature=related

jimdigriz
02-21-2010, 06:12 PM
Not sure about the answers to your questions. I just wanted to suggest that a .223 AK might be a good compromise if you can only have one rifle. I have a Saiga AK in .223 that is fabulously accurate with iron sights and low-end steel-cased ammo. I suspect that with quality ammo and optics that it could approach 1 MOA (or better???).

ericb
02-21-2010, 07:00 PM
I've never questioned the rounds ability to hit a target at extended ranges but rather its ability to do any damage. To me that is in question.


My 7.62x39 ammo is calculating on a ballistics chart @ 1080 fps 370 ft-lbs at 600 yards.... I think it would be effective enough that you would care not be shot by one.

Matman
02-21-2010, 09:50 PM
Obviously the AK would not make a very well planned out dedicated "Sniper" weapon. Yet I am a fan of mastering the equipment one is given or has at hand for the mission. Yes, mastering those simple Infantry Tasks and weapons is what makes some of our own armed forces excel and separates them from other mediocre units.

Check out this video and tell me that some rounds were not fired at a distance beyond "AK's 200 or 300" meter max range. I also be some casualties were taken by those on the recieving end! I'm a fan of studying all the resources we have available and this video along with others are a good education for some of us!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fA0Lhhn1pAE&feature=related

I like to watch various clips online and think to myself would my load out or my weapon system do what I want it to in this envirnment?! Just some food for thoughts!;)

austin
02-21-2010, 10:49 PM
one man force: The Chinese Human Wave Attack was pretty simple. There was about half a dozen self-resetting poppers set at 200 and 300 yards, IRRC. Three minutes of shooting time, with the shooter in prone. JaS described the results in his first post.


Try 50 yards. In a fog. At night. BN sized formation. Local superiority 20:1.

It will become a 360 degree fight.



NOTE ON VOLLEY FIRE

We aslo tried messing around with some volley fire where all shooters concentrated on one target and let off 3 rounds. we had at least 50% hits at 600 yards.

Imagine what a squad of partisan snipers or riflemen could do with some volley fire!!

This is a concept that we should look into further. even at closer ranges, this "team tactic" could be an extrememly effective tool to ensure target destruction.

Worth repeating.

sarahsman
04-01-2010, 01:36 PM
Ya know... the supplier for the group-buy on .223 had reportedly said they weren't doing 7.62x39 because they didn't feel they had a sufficiently accurate rifle to test from. I got a Rossi single-shot in 7.62 Russ to go with my AKs... its not Krieger barreled, but I think it would serve.;)


I know CZ makes a nice mag fed bolt rifle bet it would be pretty accurate! Here is a link http://cz-usa.com/products/view/cz-527-carbine/

sarahsman
04-01-2010, 01:59 PM
More stories: my uncle Bill was at the Chosin. And he never talked about it. It really bothered him, all these years later. He had first joined the army, then the marines. He was sitting in his foxhole one night in that half sleep that is the best you can get in that situation, and a chi-com actually fell into his foxhole in the dark and the bayonet on the end of his rifle gave him a wicked scar above his eye as he fell. They grappled, and Uncle Bill won.

My grandmother, the hardest woman I ever met, got word her eldest son was missing in action, as many familes did. Unconvinced, my grandparents went out and bought him a new Oldsmobile convertible, and started to write him letters about what was waiting for him at home. He came home to that car.

So, yes, train hard. Every now and again, shoot at ranges you think you will never need. And yes, I mean 100 yards with a handgun. We never know.


I very much agree know your equipment inside and out, My dad use to teach me to shoot a S&W mod 14 .38spl with a 6" barrel @ 100 yards i started at 6 years old i have put more than 100,000 rounds through that gun, and i can shoot the head off a spruce hen at 50 yards with it. I cant take all the credit the Mod 14 is the most accurate pistol i have ever shot. In fast firing drills at 20 yds (shooting skeet targets) i have beat kimber, Para Ord, and Rock Island Armory 1911's 3 Models of glocks, a ruger semi auto other S&W revolvers and last but certinaly not least and HK USP. The practice with that gun has made me a verry good pistol shooter. I want to stress know your equipment ant practise very hard with it. It will save your life!

O and it woldn't hurt to know other weapon systems that you may encounter on the battle field it may be over seas in the military or being attacked in your own home! You never know!

strider72
05-14-2011, 06:11 AM
I believe Gabe had a blog about this, trying longer ranges with your gear. I have done stuff at 200+ yds. with a FEG Hipower that suprised the hell out of me. I figured the AK was at least a 400 yd. effective rifle but have seen now i need to get another one... to start working my way out to 600 yds.

shotgunslinger
06-07-2011, 04:41 PM
Thats great to know about the ak...