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John Woo
07-28-2004, 09:17 PM
I wanted to get an honest opinion from the shooters on this board about what they thought their capabilities really were.

After reading some of the responses as to how some would handle a particular scenario - it occurs to me that:

1) We must have some phenomenally accurate and deadly shooters out there. Or,
2) We must have some people who are just dreaming. Or,
3) Too many of us watch (and believe) what we see in the movies.

What do you think?

Not to bruise any egos here, but perhaps this is something to really consider for yourself.

How good a shot are you? How good in a gunfight do you think you will be? Can you make that 7 yard head shot while you and your target are moving? Do you think that you can present your weapon "covertly" while three street-wise bad guys are scanning you? Can you "shoot to the ground" multiple bad guys when you are in a group a innocents and not have the innocents (or you) get shot as well?

While I am sure most of us would have no qualms engaging a bad guy - I instead think we should ask ourselves, "Are we really that good?"

John Woo

Patriot59
07-28-2004, 10:52 PM
JW

I do not beleave you have ever seen, or ever will see, me say what I would actualy do in any given senaireo(sp?).

I continualy thank the Good Lord that I have never had to use deadly force. And Pray that if I ever do, That the Good Lord will guide my mind and my actions.

Patriot59

Harlequin
07-29-2004, 05:11 AM
The responses I post rarely involve engaging a bad guy directly at the outset. I know that while I'm a good shot, I'm not an amazing shot. I've also never been in a stressful situation like that and don't want to overestimate my reaction. Mostly I use retreat and cover. I don't need to be a hero, I just want to survive.

Gecko
07-29-2004, 05:29 AM
Hey! I guarantee you that I can hit the ground (or something else) each and every time I shoot, regardless of the situation, number of adversaries, in motion or not. :D

Actually, I have shot with or watched some of the guys who frequent this board, including Gabe, shoot. They have been good to excellent tactical marksmen and tacticians, most better than me. IMO there is far less BS floating around on WT that any other popular gun-board!!. Most people here can probably do what they say they can do and I would not want to "test" any of them.

B0486
07-29-2004, 12:33 PM
How good a shot are you?
Good enough

How good in a gunfight do you think you will be?
I'm a survivor, not sure if that answers the question.

Do you think that you can present your weapon "covertly" while three street-wise bad guys are scanning you?

No, if you mean firearm
Yes, if you mean any weapon I'm carrying

Can you make that 7 yard head shot while you and your target are moving?
No, probably not, but thats not the time for a head shot so I would not be trying to do so.

Can you "shoot to the ground" multiple bad guys when you are in a group a innocents and not have the innocents (or you) get shot as well?

It would depend on their positions [ shooting innocents or BGs' ] in relation to myself and other innocents and the weapons the BG's are using. But ya, I can shoot multiples pdq when and if the ocassion comes up.

Had a chance to demonstrate that a few weeks ago with a few others who frequent the WT here. The folks I met up with were all proficient in their ability to hit what they wanted to with good speed, I can't answer for their reactions to gunfights personally, but I know if they pulled and had to fire on BG's, there would not be a lot of misses from those folks.

"Are we really that good?"
I'm not sure, having been tested a few times and still capable of writing answers to questions like these, I suppose "adequate enough" would best describe my abilities with a handgun in self defense scenarios.

I don't look on the subject as being good or bad in varying degrees of proficiency with a firearm. I am more apt to think "good enough" to survive or "probably not good enough to survive" a lethal encounter.

And then there's the chance you are good enough one day and not another, so it may all come down to whether you are involved in an encounter andwhich type of day you are having as well. Circumstances will dictate in part if you can do what needs to be done on any given day.

Brownie

Al Lipscomb
07-29-2004, 02:59 PM
At present I have a resonable chance of making the shot I need to win a fight. I keep training and learning to improve my chances. I will never be good enough to want to go looking for a gunfight. I have never had to shoot under real life-or-death stress levels but have performed other defensive actions at that level so I know it is at least possible.

Q-ball
07-29-2004, 06:46 PM
Most people here can probably do what they say they can do and I would not want to "test" any of them.

Man I hear that! There is always someone out there bigger than you, faster than you and smarter than you. I think about this occasionally, but not often. When I'm in a situation where I need to act, at work or when I'm with family, I try not to think of it in terms 'I can't win'. I think of what I'm going to do. I actually visualize it with me being the victor.

P.D.
07-29-2004, 07:27 PM
John,
You neglected to mention the vast difference between sitting in front of a computer and composing a solution to a hypothetical problem on the tactical scenario forum and the reality of instantaneous action-reaction that goes with a real life situation with a pucker factor so high your anus sucks your shorts so high up inside you can smell the elastic.

Seriously, I think the entire concept of that forum is BS. Get Real!!!

As for how good any one really is, the REAL answer is: hopefully, good enough to get out if the getting is good or stand and fight if you must, to prevail if at all possible, and to make them pay if it isn't.

Any one who says different is blowing smoke.

B0486
07-29-2004, 08:21 PM
I just got home from an armed detail and had been thinking about my answers while idling the time tonight and rethinking the questions.

Only thing I'd add is that I believe luck plays as much a role as being prepared with the skills to do harm quickly most times.

You can do everything right and still end up dead in reality. The past performances are not an assurance of future encounters ending the same way. Time waits for no man and as I've aged I've slowed down reflexively some, the eyes are not eagles anymore, you get the idea.

Brownie

Low Drag
07-29-2004, 08:53 PM
How good a shot am I?
Not good enough nor will I ever be good enough.

That's why I read (including this forum) and practice the best I can. When I can afford it I go get some training.

IMHO, awareness and fighting spirit/attitude will serve me much better than shooting skills.
.

DaveJames
07-29-2004, 09:54 PM
Am I good? No
Lucky? Yes
Can I kill? BTDT

Am I a Gabe or his equal? NO. but I don't think from what I have read that his ilk will take a running head shot either.

Maybe the seniros on the forum are BS, but no knowledge is a waste, and they make you think

The Searcher
07-29-2004, 10:01 PM
Maybe the seniros on the forum are BS, but no knowledge is a waste, and they make you think

Agreed.

FWIW, I've always taken the responses I read on this board in the light of "here's my plan," or "here's an idea" not "I guarantee this result."

Some posters may be optimistic about their skill level, but I haven't seen them shoot. I suspect that a lot of the people who post here are pretty darn good.

I also think most posters on this board realize that things may not go as planned and would not launch a foolhardy counter attack..

Planning for success doesn't guarantee success but planning for failure does seem to guarantee a negative result.

Gecko
07-30-2004, 04:39 AM
Agreed.

FWIW, I've always taken the responses I read on this board in the light of "here's my plan," or "here's an idea" not "I guarantee this result."
.

Exactly. Its sort of like writing an Op Plan in the military. Usually you go through great pains to think things through, plan in detail and cover all the contingencies and coordinate them. Then, as we used to say, "As soon as the first shot is fired you can normally take the plan, fold it up and use it for toilet paper." :) However, a plan does provide a broad, general basis on which to conduct operations. Good individual and small unit training then gives you the ability to "adapt and overcome" when the plan no longer fits the situation and must be changed. We Americans are usually pretty darn good at that, something our adversaries often fail to realize.

kmussack
07-30-2004, 06:28 AM
Dwight D. Eisenhower once wrote.....

"Plans are nothing; planning is everything"

MTS
07-30-2004, 03:05 PM
"No plan survives first contact with the enemy."

Von Molke

RMF
07-30-2004, 03:50 PM
"If your attack is going well according to plan - you are walking into an ambush."

Murphy

gary thornbury
07-30-2004, 08:26 PM
To quote James Butler Hickok when asked what makes a good gunfighter" it's not the one who is fastest, or most accurate , it's the one who's willing, that will win the fight" This may not be an exact quote.But close enough.
I was robbed at gunpoint and I was unarmed, the bg spent the last 7.5 years in the pen because I tracked him down the railroad track and he was a bad shot and he wasnt willing to back up the fight. I was lucky. As far as shooting him, in a minute if I would have had a gun. During the robbery and foot chase, I was ready to gut him with my bare hands and eat his liver.
I cannt speak for anyone else in this forum, but I think most would be more than "willing".

sepolvora
07-30-2004, 10:57 PM
Amen.
Possibly I am not as good at shooting as some people here.
Most probably I am in worse physical shape than most of them.
And of course I am not as brave as them.
But even a shameless coward can fight like a hiena when has no other way to survive.
Most of the easy-going people I have met can present a fiery fight when they have the good reasons to fight.
Don't count them off. (me included)

Saludos desde Costa Rica.

countymountie
08-10-2004, 07:36 PM
I have not been to this forum(WT) in quite some time...Strangely enough today I was looking online for a PACT timer to implement in my firearms training program that I want to start. Being an LEO I have had the privilege of some real world practical training in using a pistol/shotgun and a rifle while in the military. This aside, I know that shooting is a perishable skill that must be practiced often to be ready for "Go time!".

So basically I feel that while I might be at an advantage when dealing with an "average street thug" I know that I have to train my mindset to deal with any possible unfolding event, my shooting skills to effectively end the threat to me or others, and the fortitude to never ever give up in a violent encounter.

One thing that I like about WT is that there is a lot less of the bs computer chair commando types in here. I feel as though the vast majority(99%) are here to learn and improve their skills and survivability in the event of a violent encounter.

soflasmg
08-11-2004, 03:43 AM
I'm an adequate shot at best. I couldn't make the shot you describe I don't think.

I train enough to safely, quickly, and discreetly draw my weapon and put the front sight on a bad guy.

I also know from experience that I will do this reliably in a combat situation.

Don't forget mindset, willingness to accept and react to the fact that, yes this is really happening, and brutality will bring you home.

John Woo, the fact that you hit a sore point with me and my marginal shooting skills is making me go to the range. I appreciate it.

Kobra
08-14-2004, 03:43 PM
I didn't really start shooting until last year when I starting carrying a handgun. Most of the shooting I do is stationary shooting. I've done informal force on force training using a paintball gun, but this really only taught me how quickly one can be shot.

From the ages 19-25 I lived in a very bad neighborhood in Hollywood, CA. If anyone is familiar with the Cherokee and Yucca area just off of Hollywood Blvd. you know what I'm talking about. Being young and foolish, playing in a rock band, I was often in places I shouldn't be late at night. Three times I had a gun in my face, and one time a knife. I was able to retreat to my apartment when confronted by the drug crazed fellow with the steak knife.

The first time I was confronted with a pistol a buddy and I were sitting in a parking lot against a wall. The gunman was able to come right around us without us seeing him until it was too late. He left with our wallets.

The second time I was confronted with a pistol, looked like a .38 revolver, I was able to talk myself out of the situation. I just kept slowly backing away with my hands up talking about how it wasn't worth it for $10 until I was able to turn and flee. He fired a shot but it wasn't close.

The last time two black guys past me in a car while I was walking home about 2am. They pulled into a lot ahead of me, and soon appeared in my path. They confronted me. One had a small .25 and the other nothing. The fella with the pistol looked like "Rog" from that show "What's Happening?" He didn't look like he wanted to be robbing anyone. I think his buddy was a little less timid and talked him into it. Anyway, I was resisting, and so he decided to give me a countdown. Before he got to "1" I was able to grab his buddy by the shoulders and place him between me and the gun. I was able to get away. They didn't want to fight.

All in all I was lucky that none of these guys were serious killers. They were all just street punks. By the grace of God I left that lifestyle behind.

So, as far as skills go I probably don't have many relatively speaking, but I do have a desire to survive and am willing to fight. I know what it feels like to be in a dire situation. Actually surviving it is quite a rush and a confidence builder. I do hope to be able to afford professional instruction, beyond books and videos, in the near future.

$.02 Kobra

grnzbra
08-16-2004, 02:37 PM
Do you think that you can present your weapon "covertly" while three street-wise bad guys are scanning you?

...Bernie Goetz did this very thing against 4 bad-asses.

Agencyman
08-17-2004, 07:14 AM
I believe you'll find this on topic.

The thread is http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148506 , about 50-odd replies.

If only it could always turn out this way. Unfortunately, there was another reply that spoke of a competent shooter who died trying to draw on a BG already holding a gun on him.

Still, it is good to think of the "good" story endings, and to strive to be the best we can train to be.

[Arc Angel];Quote:
I’ll offer two examples: I used to know a retired NYC police officer who had a part-time job in a gun shop. His name was, ‘Aldo’. Several of us used to shoot IPSC with Aldo. He was very very good. The thought of beating him in a match never entered my mind; I was more than happy, just, to hold my own. One day two BG’s came into the gun shop. One of them had a sawed-off shotgun; the other had a 38 pistol. There were 3 or 4 guys behind the counter; and, at least, two more gunsmiths working in the shop at the rear of the building. Everyone was ordered to raise their hands high in the air. The guy with the shotgun walked up to Aldo who was wearing his customary 1911 GM, carried in condition one. The BG pointed the shotgun at Aldo’s chest and said; ‘You, over there, and pointed to a side wall with his shotgun.

That’s all it took! In the instant that shotgun was removed from Aldo’s chest and pointed at the wall, two men died! I’ve long thought that it was stupidity or, perhaps, desperation and NOT Aldo who killed those two guys. I heard this story the day after it happened from one of the other men in the room; Aldo, himself, never talked about it.

Gyrine
08-17-2004, 09:50 AM
Anyone else believe in synchronicity? I have been running our ConTact matches lately with just this topic in mind. I no longer allow stationary shooting unless it is from cover, and am implementing other conditions and practices that reflect a more realistic mind-set. Reading the thoughts and experiences of the people here is like hitting the mother-lode, as far as generating ideas and making me think.

I agree that
One thing that I like about WT is that there is a lot less of the bs computer chair commando types in here. I feel as though the vast majority(99%) are here to learn and improve their skills and survivability in the event of a violent encounter.

This thread, its responses, and others like it are exactly why I like to come here.