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Pokeguyjai
11-22-2007, 05:56 PM
Any experiences with silver bear? I went and shot about 600 rounds of it last week, and my LWRC piston AR's carrier key came loose. I talked to LW and they informed me that the carrier key should not come loose even if the carrier key screws are loose.

I'm worried that the carrier keys coming loose have something to do with the silver bear. I was told that Barnaul silver bear is really crappy .223 ammunition, but I know that barnaul makes great AK ammunition.

Any comments/opinons?

Thanks

Karl Kasarda
11-22-2007, 07:07 PM
Carrier keys come loose because the screws were improperly staked during install.

It has nothing to do with Silver Bear ammo.

Danomite45
11-22-2007, 07:22 PM
dito- your carrier key came loose because you used your gun and it was not properly installed. Not ammo related other than you actually shot the gun.

I have shot one box of .45acp silver bear with no problems.
I just bought 2 cases of silver bear .223. it runs my 11 inch AR just fine. I have noticed that the brass does not eject as fast or as far as federal or wolff. Maybe it is because of the heavier bullet? 62 grn Sp.
I have not used it on anything but paper as of yet.

Section1_Operations
11-22-2007, 07:23 PM
Carrier keys come loose because the screws were improperly staked during install.

It has nothing to do with Silver Bear ammo.


LWRC carrier keys cannot be staked due to the properties of the metal.

Section1_Operations
11-22-2007, 07:27 PM
Any experiences with silver bear? I went and shot about 600 rounds of it last week, and my LWRC piston AR's carrier key came loose. I talked to LW and they informed me that the carrier key should not come loose even if the carrier key screws are loose.

I'm worried that the carrier keys coming loose have something to do with the silver bear. I was told that Barnaul silver bear is really crappy .223 ammunition, but I know that barnaul makes great AK ammunition.

Any comments/opinons?

Thanks


It's not an ammo issue.

But as an aside Silver Bear is usually better then Wolf.

What was Darren or Jesse's response to the issue -- they did offer to correct the issue for you?

IIRC, their was a source issue with the bolts they were using and it was switched.

SHIHAN
11-22-2007, 07:50 PM
I wouldnt use steel cased ammo out of any gun that wasnt designed for it. LWRC has a unique bolt carrier key for you guys who mentioned staking.

Pokeguyjai
11-22-2007, 08:00 PM
It's not an ammo issue.

But as an aside Silver Bear is usually better then Wolf.

What was Darren or Jesse's response to the issue -- they did offer to correct the issue for you?

IIRC, their was a source issue with the bolts they were using and it was switched.
Yeh, LW did a great job, as usual. I sent in my bolt carrier and they gave me a new BC (or refinished it) and re-set the carrier key for me. I'm very happy.

Darren said silver bear was pretty crappy stuff, so that got me worrying...

Also I've heard that the powder in russian ammo burns slower than the powder in american manufactured ammunition. So what I was guessing was that the barnaul powder was still pushing the piston back (because it was still being burnt) while the BCG was cycling forward. Thus the piston rod struck the carrier key immaturely causing it to come loose.

However, there are two large holes in my "theory". Wolf probably uses similar gun powder to what Barnaul uses, and my LW loves Wolf. And secondly, if the powder burned THAT slowly, the gun would probably "short stroke", more like not cycle at all.

And I'm sure there are holes in the holes to my theory.

Meh, I guess I'll just have to shoot more silver bear this weekend to really know.

Pokeguyjai
11-22-2007, 08:06 PM
I wouldnt use steel cased ammo out of any gun that wasnt designed for it. LWRC has a unique bolt carrier key for you guys who mentioned staking.

The LW works fine with steel cased ammo. I was more paranoid about the powder than the steel casing. My LW has run through countless cases of Wolf MC and I've never had a problem.

And btw, I don't think the carrier key is determinant of reliability for steel cases. It's more the bolt and extractor / chambering spec. (SAMMI/WYDLE/NATO)

Karl Kasarda
11-22-2007, 08:09 PM
LWRC carrier keys cannot be staked due to the properties of the metal.

That I was not aware of.

Section1_Operations
11-22-2007, 09:26 PM
That I was not aware of.

IIRC, they're using Iconel for the carrier key.

Section1_Operations
11-22-2007, 09:30 PM
I wouldnt use steel cased ammo out of any gun that wasnt designed for it.


On that point I would say that I wouldn't use a firearm that you couldn't use steel cased ammo in. As American's we've been spoiled on brass, which is great in the application but is an way extravagantly expensive reliance for the specific purpose.

There's military discussion to move to stainless steel cases for our militaries small arms ammo.

It's an interesting discussion all around...

Razorback
11-22-2007, 09:49 PM
Thus the piston rod struck the carrier key immaturely causing it to come loose.

Sorry, but that made me spit coffee all over my monitor.

I think you meant prematurely. LOL

Pokeguyjai
11-22-2007, 11:18 PM
Sorry, but that made me spit coffee all over my monitor.

I think you meant prematurely. LOL
:dope: I've been called that way too many times. The usage of the word has been engrained into me like a reflex:D

SHIHAN
11-23-2007, 09:18 AM
The LW works fine with steel cased ammo. I was more paranoid about the powder than the steel casing. My LW has run through countless cases of Wolf MC and I've never had a problem.

And btw, I don't think the carrier key is determinant of reliability for steel cases. It's more the bolt and extractor / chambering spec. (SAMMI/WYDLE/NATO)

My response about the carrier key is to the ones who posted about staking as they are probably aware of the LWRC's design.

Im sure yours shoots fine with steel cased ammunition. My statement was that I wouldnt shoot it out of my personal guns besides those designed to shoot steel cased ammo.

Jack-O
11-23-2007, 11:08 AM
I wouldnt use steel cased ammo out of any gun that wasnt designed for it. LWRC has a unique bolt carrier key for you guys who mentioned staking.
a better caution would be "never use steel case ammo in any gun without a milspec chamber"

SHIHAN
11-23-2007, 04:47 PM
a better caution would be "never use steel case ammo in any gun without a milspec chamber"

I have guns with milspec chambers that I wont shoot steel cased from which is my personal preference.
The shooting steel cased vs. not shooting steel cased mumbo jumbo will go on forever with both sides having their points. I will however be putting a AR together from old parts that I dont care what I shoot out of it. On my other guns for training I use factory reloads that I get at dealer price that cost me less than steel cased stuff when its in stock.

VMIbravo62
11-25-2007, 08:24 PM
Okay, so what's the issue of steel vs. brass casings? I've never shot any steel through my AR. but I've been wondering. I've got a wylde chamber; am I okay to go ahead with that? What's the down side of steel?

Jack-O
11-25-2007, 09:23 PM
Okay, so what's the issue of steel vs. brass casings? I've never shot any steel through my AR. but I've been wondering. I've got a wylde chamber; am I okay to go ahead with that? What's the down side of steel?
wylde is halfway between a nato chamber and a 223 chamber. I'd say NO. YMMV tho. It's the old "accuracy vs reliability" thing

Section1_Operations
11-26-2007, 02:49 PM
wylde is halfway between a nato chamber and a 223 chamber. I'd say NO. YMMV tho. It's the old "accuracy vs reliability" thing


Accuracy vs. Reliability as far as it concerns chamber labeling. The Wylde (DMR) chamber is between a .223 Rem (Match) and the 5.56x45 NATO (Combat) chambers in terms of its throat lead, which directly correlates to the higher pressure of the 5.56x45 cartridges ability to function reliability when fouled, and the lower pressure .223 Rem to produce a tighter paper grouping.

You're fine shooting Wolf in any of the above three chambers as it is a .223 Rem specific cartridge in dimension. Theoretically, as one progresses from 5.56-->Wylde-->.223 your groups should be smaller. As a whole the Wylde chamber should be acceptable for a defensive rifle as long as itís been properly chromed along with the barrel.

IIRC, some of the militaries DMR/SPRís used the Wylde chamber in one adaptation or another.

VMIbravo62
11-26-2007, 07:35 PM
Accuracy vs. Reliability as far as it concerns chamber labeling. The Wylde (DMR) chamber is between a .223 Rem (Match) and the 5.56x45 NATO (Combat) chambers in terms of its throat lead, which directly correlates to the higher pressure of the 5.56x45 cartridges ability to function reliability when fouled, and the lower pressure .223 Rem to produce a tighter paper grouping.

You're fine shooting Wolf in any of the above three chambers as it is a .223 Rem specific cartridge in dimension. Theoretically, as one progresses from 5.56-->Wylde-->.223 your groups should be smaller. As a whole the Wylde chamber should be acceptable for a defensive rifle as long as itís been properly chromed along with the barrel.

IIRC, some of the militaries DMR/SPRís used the Wylde chamber in one adaptation or another.

But will steel-cased ammo harm my rifle in any way?

Pokeguyjai
11-26-2007, 08:01 PM
But will steel-cased ammo harm my rifle in any way?
It'll give you more wear and tear on the extractor / extractor spring so you'll have to replace that every ~7.5k, and you should clean out the bolt every 1000 rounds because the red gunk builds up there causing light primer strikes.

Except for that, as long as you keep your gun clean you're good.

SHIHAN
11-27-2007, 12:04 PM
But will steel-cased ammo harm my rifle in any way?

It will also cause early errosion.

Section1_Operations
11-27-2007, 02:57 PM
It will also cause early errosion.

I'd say it's more likely in a MG then a semi-auto plinker/defense rifle, as the steel in cartridge cases is much softer then the chrome or steel on/of the barrel.

Jack-O
11-27-2007, 06:42 PM
But will steel-cased ammo harm my rifle in any way?
Nothing has been proven, not even the extractor wear thing. the steel cases are quite soft. Even if it did cause increased extractor wear the saving are so substantial over most brass cased ammo that you could afford to but a whole new gun.
the extractor theory only applies to the AR anyway.

SHIHAN
11-29-2007, 03:28 PM
I'd say it's more likely in a MG then a semi-auto plinker/defense rifle, as the steel in cartridge cases is much softer then the chrome or steel on/of the barrel.

Yes it is softer but so is a drop of water dripping on a rock over time causing all kinds of destruction.:)

Jack-O
11-29-2007, 03:57 PM
Yes it is softer but so is a drop of water dripping on a rock over time causing all kinds of destruction.:)

try chrome plating the rock. :p

SHIHAN
11-29-2007, 04:11 PM
try chrome plating the rock. :p

LMAO!:D :D

davestarbuck
11-29-2007, 04:21 PM
Just shot up 500 rds of the 62 gr hollow point today.. Good stuff, alot hotter than Wolf 62 gr. I'm buying more for practice stuff...


-dave

Pokeguyjai
11-29-2007, 05:17 PM
Just shot up 500 rds of the 62 gr hollow point today.. Good stuff, alot hotter than Wolf 62 gr. I'm buying more for practice stuff...


-dave
Any FTFs? I was having FTFs but I'm almost 100% sure they were due a weak magazine spring.

davestarbuck
11-29-2007, 05:38 PM
Nope, no FTF's, but the AR I was shooting hasn't ever malfed with over 4000 rounds through the gun, about 500 rounds at a time....


-dave

Pokeguyjai
11-29-2007, 05:54 PM
Nope, no FTF's, but the AR I was shooting hasn't ever malfed with over 4000 rounds through the gun, about 500 rounds at a time....


-dave

Sweet. I guess I'll get me some HP next time and drop the SPs.

SHIHAN
11-29-2007, 08:17 PM
Any FTFs? I was having FTFs but I'm almost 100% sure they were due a weak magazine spring.

Did you marl the bad mag?

Pokeguyjai
11-29-2007, 11:25 PM
Did you marl the bad mag?
Mark? Yup, i took a screw driver and ran a line down the mag.

And the scary thing is that those mags are the ones that I keep loaded (25rds) for "when things go bump at night". Boy am I glad I tested them, because for all of them, the springs are MUCH weaker.

New springs are on the way to replace all the old ones.

Experience is king.

ETA: Crap, they all have ranger plates on them...

Section1_Operations
11-30-2007, 02:36 PM
Mark? Yup, i took a screw driver and ran a line down the mag.

And the scary thing is that those mags are the ones that I keep loaded (25rds) for "when things go bump at night". Boy am I glad I tested them, because for all of them, the springs are MUCH weaker.

New springs are on the way to replace all the old ones.

Experience is king.

ETA: Crap, they all have ranger plates on them...

Why are your 30rd magazines loaded with 25rds instead of 28rds?:confused:

What bolt set-up are you running in the upper?

Pokeguyjai
11-30-2007, 03:07 PM
Why are your 30rd magazines loaded with 25rds instead of 28rds?:confused:

What bolt set-up are you running in the upper?

Oops, typo - I load them at 28.

And by bolt set-up I am guessing you mean whehter or not I was using the ACB? I was using the regular bolt that came with my LW.

Section1_Operations
11-30-2007, 10:01 PM
Oops, typo - I load them at 28.


Okay, sounds good.



And by bolt set-up I am guessing you mean whehter or not I was using the ACB? I was using the regular bolt that came with my LW.


Does it have the "Crane" Extractor/O-Ring upgrade?

Pokeguyjai
11-30-2007, 11:37 PM
Does it have the "Crane" Extractor/O-Ring upgrade?
Yup it does.

I had no FTE problems, only FTFs.

The rounds were jamming in a funky way. The butt of the round was stuck in the space where the charging handle is. Each time it was with the same magazine, and jammed the same way.

Dropping the mag and charging the charging handle fixed the problem easily.