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BILLYBOB
07-23-2004, 11:56 AM
I attended the funeral of an old friend the other day. It was the first time I carried my firearm into a church and I felt kind of bad about it. In that neighborhood, I didn't want to leave my firearm in the car.

Has anyone else ever done this and how did you feel or continue to feel if you do so on a regular basis?

RMF
07-23-2004, 12:10 PM
I carry everywhere including church. There have been a number of organized attacks in churches as well as just individuals. I have a friend that had to defend himself and others at church and have read of many other cases. The Lord is our shepard and I think a few of us are the guard dogs he uses to protect the flock. There is evil in the world and we are called to fight it.

Dale Fricke
07-23-2004, 12:13 PM
I attended the funeral of an old friend the other day. It was the first time I carried my firearm into a church and I felt kind of bad about it. In that neighborhood, I didn't want to leave my firearm in the car.

Has anyone else ever done this and how did you feel or continue to feel if you do so on a regular basis?

Hi Billybob
Sorry for your loss!
Iím sure God is ok with it as long as your heart is in the right place; I am a pastor I carry a gun into church every day.
(Luke 22:36) And He said to them, But now, he who has a bag, let him take it, and likewise his wallet. And he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one.

The handgun has replaced the roman short sword of which Jesus spoke. I have no problem and nether should you. Why did you feel bad? :confused:

BILLYBOB
07-23-2004, 12:25 PM
Thank you Fricke.

I just felt that I was offending God because a lot of people look at handguns as being an evil instrument and I am not sure if God condemns bringing weapons into the church.

I always have good intensions anytime I carry my piece. It is exactly for what I purchased it for. Self defense. I feel a lot better after reading these posts. I do not attend church regularly but when I do attend, I don't want God to think I am offending him by carrying my weapon. I also don't like leaving my weapon unattended at home or in a car.

Wayne Dobbs
07-23-2004, 01:31 PM
Billybob,

You don't think that your pistol has morals or spirit do you?? The Lord looks at your heart, not your holster for your intentions and spirit (one of which you most definitely have).

Wayne Dobbs

The Searcher
07-23-2004, 01:49 PM
Billybob:

While some people may well look at a handgun as evil, you need not be concerned with their approval, only God's.

God, unlike Sarah Brady, is smart enough to distinguish between inanimate objects and those with souls.

combat effective
07-23-2004, 02:11 PM
Part of getting dressed for me is putting on a gun. I carry everywhere I go; however, my state's law lists churches as one of the places a CCL is a no go.

michael
07-23-2004, 02:13 PM
There's actually a pretty long discussion on this in the Christian Warrior section.

In short, all the above replies are correct. I carry every time I have been to church and will continue to do so. I feel that it is part of my calling to protect those friends/family/brothers and sisters in Christ who can't protect themselves. Many incidents have occurred in churches including shootings and murders--sad, but a fact of life today. Just like the Boy Scouts--Be Prepared.

Gecko
07-23-2004, 03:52 PM
I attended the funeral of an old friend the other day. It was the first time I carried my firearm into a church and I felt kind of bad about it. In that neighborhood, I didn't want to leave my firearm in the car.

Has anyone else ever done this and how did you feel or continue to feel if you do so on a regular basis?

I have and also felt a little guilty and uncomfortable about it. Don't know why. I guess its my upbringing and the idea of Jesus as the "Prince of Peace." I know, I know!

MTS
07-23-2004, 05:05 PM
Reverend Oliver (Rene Auberjonois):"A shepard must tend his flock... and at times, fight off the wolves."

THE PATRIOT (2000)

Q-ball
07-23-2004, 05:58 PM
BILLYBOB, don't feel bad or guilty. I also carry in church, but I make sure that it's concealed very well. I'm not sure how some of the people might react, so I try to be super covert. All of these replies/posts are right on. I'm sure if you did some research you would find some like minded fellows in your home church.

BILLYBOB
07-26-2004, 06:33 AM
Part of getting dressed for me is putting on a gun. I carry everywhere I go; however, my state's law lists churches as one of the places a CCL is a no go.

I couldn't agree with you more. When getting dressed, my holster goes on just as if I was putting on a pair of socks. It's a part of my daily attire. Whenever I have to attend a church, I will make sure my firearm is super-concealed. I'm sure God knows my intensions. Protection for my family, self, and friends is what it's all about.

I feel a lot better after reading your posts. Great responses and advice.

Steve Collins
07-26-2004, 09:59 AM
After I got out of the Army in 1992, I went back to my church youth group to work as a chaperone for the kids on their outings. More often than not, I was armed and the church youth leader knew it and not only apporved, but would ask if I was before we went anywhere! Then, as now, my purpose was to protect. I was determined that nothing would happen to those kids, and it was appreciated. It would have been worse if something had happened and I didn't have the means to protect them.

RMF
07-26-2004, 02:21 PM
A quote from an article someone posted elsewhere:

one officer asked his friend if he carried his weapon in church. The other
cop replied, "I will never be caught without my gun in church." I
asked why he felt so strongly about this, and he told me about a cop he knew who was at
a church massacre in Ft. Worth, Texas in 1999. In that incident, a mentally
deranged individual came into the church and opened fire, gunning down fourteen
people. He said that officer believed he could have saved every life that day
if he had been carrying his gun. His own son was shot, and all he could do
was throw himself on the boy's body and wait to die. That cop looked me in the
eye and said, "Do you have any idea how hard it would be to live with yourself
after that?"


An excellent article. Thanks to G30jack for posting it!

http://www.glocktalk.com/showthread...238#post2855238

OdieWon
07-26-2004, 04:08 PM
My pastors, (we have 3 of them) all know that myself, my wife, and my brother, are all three armed every time we show up. And that is just about every week.

I do however take extra precautions to be covert with my weapon. As stated in some previous posts, some of those folks might not take it the way you mean it.

Lots of the people in our church don't trust themselves with a gun. Lots of people in our church have done hard time, and are not allowed to own a weapon.

Lots of them in all our churches are pacifists.

The Lord calls us to further His kingdom. If we believe that for us that means a call to arms, to defend the widows and orphans, then we must concede that anyone peaceably visiting your church is covered by the same blanket of protection.

disclaimer - this is my personal opinion and I am in no way claiming to be a pastor, nor an expert.

I could name several folks at our church that would think we are some type of extreme freaks of the right-wing-nut-job political party.

I really don't care. In the event that physical threat comes to our church, we are there.

May the Sun be at our backs, when we lay eyes on THE SON.

Merritt459
07-31-2004, 02:38 AM
As a police officer and a deacon in my local church, I asked my Pastor if he had any concerns about me attneding in uniform (he didn't at all) or carrying in the service when not in uniform. His only concern was that he had heard how in another church a mental person had grabbed some one else's firearm and committed suicide. The church in question had been sued. Good concealment, retention training and awareness takes care of that. That said, after having someone I arrested the weekend previously sit down next to me and apologize for their behavior really hit home one day. Also when there is a problem with security and the off-duty officers working sometimes call me for assistance in handling the situation.(BTW the church is very very large and serves a major city.)

Gabriel Suarez
07-31-2004, 06:28 AM
Brothers,

Just to add one final thing to the fine responses here, I want to point out that we are at war. This war on terror that was brought to us is not over with Iraq, nor will it be something that is only fought overseas.

Daily we get intel, and you get it on Warrior Talk's Open Sources, of groups of mysterious middle eastern men being detained at borders and points of entry. Only a small percentage of illegals are caught, thus there have invariably been other groups that made it through. They are here now, and I suspect we will soon see terrorism at home.

Regardless of what is officially said or not, it IS a war between Islam and the west. And the tangos (tact-speak for terrorist) are raised to think of us as infidels (to convert or kill us). Read in our Open sources of how Christians are treated by these islamic tangos around the world.

What better target than a church full of Christians? I wonder if these times are what the Lord had in mind when He told His men to buy swords in Luke 22:35?

How would you feel, the day the test is brought to you in the form of three tangos spraying your congregation with small arms fire, that you left your guns at home because your well-meaning pastor was uncomfortable about it? Its not about him guys, its about the truth of the Word, and the reality of our times.

Invariably a brother or sister will ask you somethig silly like, "Why do you carry your gun, don't you trust God to protect us?" Your polite answer should be, "Yes I trust God to protect us...that's why He brought me here today."

michael
07-31-2004, 11:20 AM
Tangos attacking church congregations is one of my biggest fears. I ALWAYS am well armed in church and will continue to do so. I would not want to think about the day that my church friends and other Christians were killed and I was not armed and able to prevent it. That would be difficult to live with. Churches are a very inviting target for the tangos as we are their greatest threat--not the military. Christianity is the biggest threat to them and they know it and will likely act against us.

JerryM
07-31-2004, 02:00 PM
Ten years ago I would not have thought of carrying a gun in church. However, considering deranged individuals, and what has happened, plus Muslim extremist, it just make sense to do so if one is inclined, and is legal. (I won't argue the legal part, but it sounds good.)

The odds of any local church experiencing what has been mentioned is very small, but it was small that the church in 1999 mentioned would have the people killed. But it happened, and some sort of violence will happen again. There is nothing sacred today in the minds of many.

As a little humor, I tell a few friends in church, who know of our CHL, that are not armed, that their job is to fall on top of the grenades that might be tossed in, and others of us will take care of the "throwers." One guy started carrying, and we have selected another to fall on the grenades. :D

Jerry

Al Lipscomb
07-31-2004, 02:26 PM
I have seen with my own eyes enough troublemakers in Church to confirm my need to carry a firearm there. When my wife was being baptised (we do public baptisms) someone attempted to disrupt the service. We have also had a number of people who entered a service with the intent of causing a disruption. I know of violent attacks against pastors both at my church and others in the state. A senior pastor across the state was almost beaten to death.

God has told us we are in a war. We are to stand and hold against the enemy. That does not permit us to go out and shoot innocent (easy now) Muslims, but it does give us a right to defend ourself.

Kobra
07-31-2004, 02:39 PM
I attend a church with a pistol. No need to feel bad about it. Some might argue, "You aren't really trusting the Lord!" to which I reply, "You should not tempt the Lord God." I mean, should I cast myself off the pinnacle of the Temple to show my trust in God or is that tempting Him to HAVE to save me. The Scriptures teach us that the latter answer is the correct one, and that it is the wrong way to think.

"as it is written, "There is none righteous, not even one; There is none who understands, There is none who seeks for God; All have turned aside, together they have become useless; There is none who does good, There is not even one." (Romans 3:10-12)

Christ didn't come to die for good people with their hearts in the right place, but for enemies of God. Amazingly Christ paid for the sins of those who murdered Him. In light of that great sacrifice and the alien righteousness we now possess from Christ, it is our duty to show our gratitude to Him by protecting those brothers and sisters who are unable and/or unwilling to protect themselves.

Take care, bro
Kobra

billcameron
07-31-2004, 03:18 PM
My guess is the "average" church is in no more danger post 9-11 than it was pre 9-11. I suspect there is danger from gangbangers, mental cases, druggies, etc, which existed pre 9-11 and continues. But I believe the big, landmark churches may be in real danger from terrorists. Not only are a lot of people packed in a small space, but many of these churches/cathedrals have a historical place in western civilization. This is naturally more true in Europe and with the large muslim populations in France along side historic cathedrals one can only wonder when something will happen. The vatican itself would represent a prime target.

Steve Camp
07-31-2004, 03:45 PM
As a little humor, I tell a few friends in church, who know of our CHL, that are not armed, that their job is to fall on top of the grenades that might be tossed in, and others of us will take care of the "throwers." One guy started carrying, and we have selected another to fall on the grenades. :D


ROFLMAO! :D

Kobra
07-31-2004, 06:50 PM
My guess is the "average" church is in no more danger post 9-11 than it was pre 9-11. I suspect there is danger from gangbangers, mental cases, druggies, etc, which existed pre 9-11 and continues. But I believe the big, landmark churches may be in real danger from terrorists. Not only are a lot of people packed in a small space, but many of these churches/cathedrals have a historical place in western civilization. This is naturally more true in Europe and with the large muslim populations in France along side historic cathedrals one can only wonder when something will happen. The vatican itself would represent a prime target.

I think as this battle continues we will start to see more NON-landmark targets hit. 1) They are far less guarded 2) There are a whole lot more small towns than big ones, and thus the spread of terror will be more rapid. No longer will you have to be in a big city to wonder when the next hit will come. Downtown Podunk will be just as threatened.

$.02 Kobra

Al Lipscomb
07-31-2004, 07:50 PM
I think as this battle continues we will start to see more NON-landmark targets hit. 1) They are far less guarded 2) There are a whole lot more small towns than big ones, and thus the spread of terror will be more rapid. No longer will you have to be in a big city to wonder when the next hit will come. Downtown Podunk will be just as threatened.

$.02 Kobra
You may be correct. In the model of terror a "big church" may not give people as much of "that could have happened here" feeling. Hit a few small churches in small towns and people will change their lifestyle.

Grey Matter
08-01-2004, 01:27 AM
My guess is the "average" church is in no more danger post 9-11 than it was pre 9-11. I suspect there is danger from gangbangers, mental cases, druggies, etc, which existed pre 9-11 and continues. But I believe the big, landmark churches may be in real danger from terrorists. Not only are a lot of people packed in a small space, but many of these churches/cathedrals have a historical place in western civilization. This is naturally more true in Europe and with the large muslim populations in France along side historic cathedrals one can only wonder when something will happen. The vatican itself would represent a prime target.

To the point of this conversation, Iíll bet there are more than a few guns inside of the Vatican.

DaveJames
08-01-2004, 02:49 AM
Grey, if you only knew!!!!!!

Gabriel Suarez
08-01-2004, 05:59 AM
As I understand it, from an insider, the Vatican has an entire security force (not the flambouyant Swiss guards) that "takes care of church business".

gman552
08-01-2004, 09:43 AM
One side of my wife's family were originally Polish immigrants to Texas in the mid-1800's. When the KKK started attacking Catholic churches after the Civil War, the congregation would post several men with shotguns facing the back doors to prevent Klansmen from breaking in during services.

The local Klan group pretty much stopped their activities when a U.S. Marshal came to town, set up an ambush one night, and whacked a few of them.

More than a few of the local "upstanding citizens" were under those hoods and robes, when they pulled them off the bodies...

DaveJames
08-01-2004, 10:50 PM
Gabe, yep!! and just because we/err they wear robes don't mean their "girlie men", ,they can shoot with the best of us.

BILLYBOB
08-02-2004, 09:46 AM
Great. Great responses guys! Good to see your input Gabe!

Thank you very much!

mk86fcc
08-03-2004, 04:15 AM
As I understand it, from an insider, the Vatican has an entire security force (not the flambouyant Swiss guards) that "takes care of church business".Went on a tour of the Vatican a couple years ago when my ship pulled into Italy. We were told by our tour guide (yeah, I know, not exactly an unimpeachable source of info) that the flamboyant looking ones were just sort of "the tip of the iceberg." And even in the case of them, those pikes aren't their only tool in the toolbox. (And when was the last time Switzerland was invaded? There's a reason for that.)

TacRescue
08-03-2004, 07:29 AM
I attended the funeral of an old friend the other day. It was the first time I carried my firearm into a church and I felt kind of bad about it. In that neighborhood, I didn't want to leave my firearm in the car.

Has anyone else ever done this and how did you feel or continue to feel if you do so on a regular basis?


I think it is great! If you have the spirit of a warrior, don't compromise. Truly you should feel no worse taking a weapon into an "IC" than you should a 7-11. What is in the "church" you attended that could get offended? Our Lord? The "church" is a structure. Thats it. The same as any other building. At one time in the OT it was where God's Spirit dwelt. It was holy, sacred. Now that temple (structure) is gone, and the curtain has torn. We (believers) are the church, we are the temple. The spirit resides in us, upon your faith in Christ. An "IC" is simply where we can do 1 Corinth.14:26 (hopefully), in a corporate manner...and edify.

If a person who has a gift of evangalism, and supresses evangalyzing (sp?) at certain times, they will feel "bad" about it. If another has the gift of preaching and suppresses an opportunity to teach...they are turning there back on their gift. If you have a gift of defending or that of a warrior, supressing that goes against the spirit that God has given you.

We can't allow the world to decieve us in a manner that separates or makes us question the validity of our spiritual gifts.

1 Corinth. 12

4Now there are distinctive varieties and distributions of endowments (gifts, [1] extraordinary powers distinguishing certain Christians, due to the power of divine grace operating in their souls by the Holy Spirit) and they vary, but the [Holy] Spirit remains the same.
5And there are distinctive varieties of service and ministration, but it is the same Lord [Who is served].
6And there are distinctive varieties of operation [of working to accomplish things], but it is the same God Who inspires and energizes them all in all.
7But to each one is given the manifestation of the [Holy] Spirit [the evidence, the spiritual illumination of the Spirit] for good and profit.
8To one is given in and through the [Holy] Spirit [the power to speak] a message of wisdom, and to another [the power to express] a word of knowledge and understanding according to the same [Holy] Spirit;
9To another [[2] wonder-working] faith by the same [Holy] Spirit, to another the extraordinary powers of healing by the one Spirit;
10To another the working of miracles, to another prophetic insight ([3] the gift of interpreting the divine will and purpose); to another the ability to discern and distinguish between [the utterances of true] spirits [and false ones], to another various kinds of [unknown] tongues, to another the ability to interpret [such] tongues.
11All these [gifts, achievements, abilities] are inspired and brought to pass by one and the same [Holy] Spirit, Who apportions to each person individually [exactly] as He chooses.
12For just as the body is a unity and yet has many parts, and all the parts, though many, form [only] one body, so it is with Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One).
13For by [[4] means of the personal agency of] one [Holy] Spirit we were all, whether Jews or Greeks, slaves or free, baptized [and [5] by baptism united together] into one body, and all made to drink of one [Holy] Spirit.

The Lord is a warrior, and the Lord is His name. Exodus 15:3, thats our Father, of course we are going to be like Him!

Sean

Gabriel Suarez
08-03-2004, 07:39 AM
Well said. Good points

JJ1
08-04-2004, 10:55 AM
With this weeks news of the attacks in Iraq that were directly aimed at multiple Christian sites, the need to upgrade our personal level of awareness at church is critical.

Additional reasons, if needed, to carry in church

Wedgewood, Texas - The shooting of 14 people at a youth service by a deranged man, 7 of the victims died and the shooter finally killed himself.

Trotwood, Ohio - A man who was being meeting with a pastor for personal problems was upset at his progress. He entered the backstage area of the sanctuary and shot the pastor during a service and killed him

Atlanta, GA - A woman entered the church last fall, 15 minutes before the service and shot her mother, the pastor and then killed herself. Other members arriving for services were stunned.


A web search shows many reports of armed robberies of the members of churches in South Africa. This is an invasion style of several BGs with AK47. These churches are now posting guards with similar hardware.


As discussed in other posts, there are sheep, wolves and sheepdogs. The sheepdogs must be aware of how many problems can quickly occur at any location, including and maybe especially church facilities.

Attacks against a church could be seen as a way to interrupt Americaís Christian community with the hope of demoralizing us.

Would one person be able to stop multiple attackers spraying gunfire at a worship service? Unknown but you can bet I would try. Carrying in church should be done in a covert manor, but should be done. With this comes the need to understand your environment and equipment needs. Check ďAmmunition choice for crowded areasĒ that we had discussed early this year for good ideas on ammo selection.

http://warriortalk.com/showthread.php?t=1540&highlight=crowded

Consider shot placement. In this environment you might need to go down on a knee to clear the background of innocents before discharging your weapon. Choose you placement in the church carefully. If possible, know others who might be carrying.

JJ