View Full Version : run,ram or engage?

06-30-2004, 05:25 AM
day before yesterday i was on my way back to my house when i got behind a guy who i have had in jail numerous times and just to keep things brief we will just say that we dont get along. now he keeps looking back at me and mouthing things at me i guess trying to scare me. i saw him and the guy he was with fidgeting around and he is known to be armed. i discreetly drew my g30 and kept it at my ready. when he went to turn he stopped his car and i wasnt sure what he was getting ready to do. at this point i was trying to formulate my plan of action if he decided to open fire. basically my choices were turn and run (not my first choice), put the pedal to the floor and put my dodge through his hooptie or bail out and engage him. luckily all he did was spout off at the mouth and drive off. but this left me wondering what the best possible thing to do would be. to me running was not an option because that would put him behind me and i would be at a major disadvantage. putting my truck into his car might solve the situation but there is the chance it wont incapacitate him. if i bail and engage i am basically in the open with no good cover. the only logical thing i could think of was to either bail and use my door as cover (every time we have taken a gun off him it has been either a 25 or 32) and engage or roll my window down (or just shoot through it) and stay in my truck.
so what would yall do if this situation should arise?
attached is a diagram i drew up real quick to give you a feel for the layout of the situation.

Lou Costello
06-30-2004, 07:36 AM
If you work with these mutts daily, you can't run. If that message got back to the pokey, your life would be miserable and probably in more danger. Everybody in orange jumpsuits would be pushing you daily.

That said, I think I would have backed up 25 yards to put some distance between me and him. Then open the door, step out, and draw my weapon keeping it below door level, out of sight until needed. Your stance and demeanor should be enough to tell him not to mess around with you.

Now if you had your family with you, that changes things. Back up and put a LOT of distance between you and Convict X.

PS: what is he doing in your neighborhood? Looks suspicious to me.

Certainly sounds like this convict needs an attitude adjustment - a significant emotional event is what the psychologists call it.

06-30-2004, 07:54 AM
I like the graphic. :)

A couple of minor points to consider: first, rolling down the windows is usually a good idea if one expects gun play for two reasons. First, if a bullet hits it anywhere, it will likely become become opaque because of how they are designed to shatter, and you won't be able to see through it. Secondly the rolled down glass in the body of the door give it a little more bullet resistance so you have better cover.

The second point is once you drew your gun, where did you put it? did you hold it in your hand or put it on the seat? If the gun was drawn and you decided to ram, you would probably put it down, if not your driving would be hampered. The impact would send it flying and you would have to look around for it - probably something you would not want to do if a couple of guys are converging you. This, I understand, is what happened to one of the FBI agents during the Miami shootout. Gun on the seat went flying and he spent a good amount of time looking for it.

From the picture, it looks like you could t-bone the car on the driver side if you needed to. Assuming a fight was inevitable, I think the best approach would be to t-bone them on the driver door. Now they can only get out, one at a time, on the passenger side. That put you in a pretty good position! Depending on the particulars, you could then run around the back of their car, popping them from behind making it very awkward for them to return fire, or of getting behind the car would take too long (you have to get behind around your truck first) you could take them from your driver side. Not as good, but still OK.

If you didn't ram them and stayed in the truck, they have two exit points, driver and passenger side, one could go left and the other right - now you are fighting on two fronts. If you stayed in the truck and a bullet hit the windshield, again, you might loose your ability to see through it. So, let say you stayed in the truck, the driver fired and hit the windshield and your view was thus obstructed, then the driver came out and went left and the passenger came out and went right before you got out or whatever to see what was going on. What a mess to deal with....

Of course, this is all based on my interpretation of what I can see from the description and the graphic, and the reality of what you experienced may have been different and I wasn't there, so take this for what it is worth.

Bottom line - you were more prepared than most...

06-30-2004, 08:32 AM
My first question is, does this moron realize that you live at the other side of the intersection? If he knows where you live you have a BIG problem.

Second, if you have a fullsize truck(especially 3/4 or 1 ton trucks) then you might easily be able to disable the hooptie by raming it. And God loves those of us who lift our trucks because you could easily go so far as to invade the passenger compartment sufficiently to keep him and his buddy stuck in the car until someone with a power cutter arrives to cut them out. Who says these gas guzzlers can't be put to good use? ;)

Having said all of that, my reaction depend on his behavior. If he gets out of the vehicle and presents a weapon I think it's probably faster and possibly even safer to just ram him and smear him across the side of his hooptie while I ram his car down the road to catch his buddy trying to run out the otherside. Hopfully I can grind his butt into the pavement too.

I'm not a big fan of getting out of the vehicle unless you are facing fire from a at least a .30 caliber rifle that actually has a high probability to penetrating the doors and windshield. In general, I've never understood why someone would do this in most instances. I always think of Reginald Denny during the LA riots. Were it my black @$$ driving that truck, the only thing I would have noticed was five or more distinct bumps as each axle ran over every moron trying to get to the cab. I'll deal with the lawyers later.

Lawrence Keeney
06-30-2004, 09:18 AM
Wonder if it was just a coincidence that He was in your neighborhood? Just seems awfully convenient, don't you think?

06-30-2004, 04:14 PM
Sounds like this will be an on going situation. I would document it some how. If this pattern of behavior continues, you will need to show it. It sounds like it might get nasty too. So, make the proper officials aware of the situation, at the very least note the date and time and details,WITH wittnesses if possible. AND if there is a chance he might know your home address, be very carefull, take the worse case and plan like he does!

06-30-2004, 04:55 PM
problem is i live in a rather small town so it is one of those deals where everybody knows where everybody lives.i have delt with this moron both on the street and in the jail. i am not being funny when i say this but he has some problems upstairs, as in his butter done slipped off his biscuit. i told my lt and sgt about it and when my chief gets back in town tomorrow i will let him know about it.
this isnt the first time i have had to deal with someone who i have had in the jail or put in jail. i got a good piece of advice shortly after my first encounter with something like this from a good friend. long story short this guy i had to chase down and bring to jail got a little stupid and i had to drag him out of my patrol car. nothing violent but as i said to the city council, how else was i supposed to get him out of the car when he was laying on the floor acting the like sack of crap that he is....levitate him with my mind? so about two weeks after all of this his mom comes up saying i beat her son and all this other bs. so after that i started seeing him outside the quickie mart where i stop to get coffee on my way into work. he starts sayin i owe him an apology and all this bs. so i switched stores, going a little out of my way, and he started showing up there. so at this point i politely told him if he ever got within five feet of me again he wouldnt walk away under his own facilities.
so since then i have documented everything like this kept a record for myself, i have our secretary put on in their file along with my file, and i file it in with the general complaints. i figure that way there is a good paper trail that would be hard to make disappear.
back to dealing with the situation i deliberately went home that way, not looking for him, but to better think it out. i think my best plan of attack would be to ram him with ye ol gas guzzling dodge and drive him right into the stop sign on the corner opposite from me. now this can go kinda two ways. if i have enough momentum i would drive him through the stop sign and into the small embankment about 5 feet from the curb. this would pin both of them in and give me the severe upper hand. if i cant push him that far the stop sign would at least slow their exit from that side down.
now that i know what he is driving since he got out i will keep an eye out for him and try and evade before he sees me.

07-01-2004, 05:05 AM
Be Careful, be Vewwry, Vewrry Careful... to paraphrase that great American Elmer Fudd (who usually went armed.)

Others have addressed the tactical responses that are reasonable in the situation. I'm assuming "contempt of cop" is no longer an offense where you live?

Is a restraining order (or protective order) a possibility where you live? A RO would let you toss his sorry self in to the slammer any time he came near you.. a very useful tool indeed.

This ED seems to know where you live... not a good thing... particularly for your family... whackos can become VERY dangerous as you know.

Can you arrange some "enhanced police service" for this guy with the goal of finding him dirty on something.

One thing sure... you need to Be Careful, be Vewwry, Vewrry Careful... crazys are dangerous.

Take care



07-01-2004, 09:57 AM
i am about the only person who will do anything when he does stuff. he recently sued the city because he provoked an officer until the officer whacked him on the head real good like with his asp. about two weeks ago he just won like a $45k lawsuit against the city because of this. so now all the other officers are afraid they are going to get sued so they wont do anything. we got one guy who wont draw his gun because he think it can make him liable for some crap.
i have tried to tell them all that if they live in fear of being sued that it is going to get them killed and there are plenty of jobs in food services. family isnt much of a concern since i live alone and the only family i have in town lives in a nice quiet neighborhood across town.

07-01-2004, 10:13 AM
Teak, it sounds as though you have all the basics down. The paper trail is good. I've had to do that on occasion before I retired. As suggested an RO might be useful.

I personally wouldn't want to work in an agency where I didn't feel I'd get backup because my fellow officers would wimp out, and it sounds as though you have that kind of a situation. You're right to suggest they consider a 'career change'.

Lawrence Keeney
07-01-2004, 01:21 PM
If this goober is on probation or parole, there has to be SOMETHING you can find to violate him on?

Driving without insurance, domestic violence, carrying a concealed weapon..something...

07-01-2004, 07:35 PM
When someone chooses not to act for fear of being sued, they should also consider the possible negative ethical and legal consequnces of not acting. Unless someone puts this dirtbag in his place, he is going to try to make a living suing the city over incidents that he has initiated. If he was successful once, he will likely try again. However, its a safe bet that he isn't near as smart as he thinks he is, and that will be his downfall, especially with a little "help" from his "friends" in blue.

07-01-2004, 11:33 PM
It was said before, but let me reemphasize it- if a cop's worried about lawsuits, then he's useless. Get prepaid legal counsel because lawsuits WILL happen in LE. That said, I think you did very well, although I do agree that ramming with your gun out of the holster would not be the best idea. Another thing to consider is if you wear glasses. One of the Miami agents was killed when he couldn't see the bad guy coming because he lost his glasses when they rammed the car. Be careful, but take no crap.

07-02-2004, 04:57 AM
i do wear glasses but as long as we arent dueling flint locks at fifty paces adt dawn. i can see good enought to engage and id targets but i just can read small print and things like that. but, good point though cause i didnt even t hink about it.

07-03-2004, 10:50 PM
Teak,one thing to remember if your going to ram, is dis-engage the drivers door lock,ie.pop open the door before impact, the last thing you need is to get trapped inside.

From your diagram, I wouldn't "T" bone them, I'd have aimed for the rear passenger door just behind the pillar, and drove it into them .

07-04-2004, 10:04 AM
that is a very good point and i didnt even think about it. it would definatly suck if i got stuck in the car!