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Gabriel Suarez
06-09-2004, 06:08 PM
Recalled Holsters Could Cause Guns To Fire

· Strap Can Cause Gun To Fire Accidentally

· Call 1-866-508-3997 For More Information

Jun 9, 2004 9:03 am US/Pacific

NEW YORK (AP) A Pennsylvania company is recalling some 3,200 gun holsters because the strap can catch the trigger and cause the weapon to fire accidentally.

Eight incidents of accidental firing have been reported, the Consumer Product Safety Commission said Wednesday.

The Fobus USA Holster Division of First Samco Inc., of Southampton, Pa., is recalling its Fobus GLT holsters, designed for Series 17 and Series 19 Glock handguns fitted with a laser-sight light. There have been eight reports of guns discharging as they were inserted into the holster. One person sustained a finger injury.

The recall, in cooperation with the U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission, involves about 3,200 units with leather or plastic retention straps less than an inch wide. The holsters are inscribed with "GL 2..EMZ," "FOBUS" and "Made in Israel." They were sold at gun accessory retailers nationwide and on the Fobus Web site between March 2002 and March 2003 for about $40 to $45.

The holsters have since been redesigned with wider straps and a plastic tip that is too wide to be caught in the trigger guard.

Consumers should stop using the holsters immediately and bring them to a Fobus USA distributor for a free replacement holster or contact First Samco Inc. for instructions on how to return product for a replacement. Consumers can also send the recalled holster to Fobus USA in Southampton, and will be reimbursed for return shipping.

For more information consumers can call 1-866-508-3997 between 9 a.m. and 5 p.m. EDT Monday through Friday.

*******
FWIW, there are far better holsters out there than these. Don't compromise on gun or holster. Get good gear.

Tangle
06-11-2004, 10:33 AM
Wow! Thanks Gabe for the heads up. I don't carry Glocks, but I do have friends that I can't persuade not to (just kidding, kinda). I'll pass the holster recall along.

B0486
06-11-2004, 11:50 AM
Thanks for the heads up Gabe,

Though I have a fobus for the g-30, it is never used and sits in the drawer with all the rest of the crap that doesn't work worth it's weight in crap to begin with.

Brownie

michael
06-11-2004, 12:51 PM
Yup. Fobus is junk anyway. I bought one a long time ago, but it sits in the closet with all my other unused toys :confused: . Anybody wanna buy one?

Tangle
06-12-2004, 03:49 PM
Isn't that interesting; I've got Fist, Kramer, Galco, Blade-tech, Side Armor, Uncle Mikes and Fobus holsters, and a number of each. About all I carry my Sig 226R or 226ST in is a Fobus paddle.

I don't understand why you think they are crap, the paddle is the right cant (for me), the speed is as good as it gets, it holds the gun in tight to the body, doesn't squeak like my high dollar leather holsters, and the paddle is the easiest on and off I have found.

B0486
06-12-2004, 06:22 PM
For me, it is too bulky, doesn't release the gun fast enough unless it is yanked just right [ which I know will not happen under stress, for me anyway ] and if it makes it harder to conceal than another type holster, why bother?

Just my thoughts, I do know many who like them as well any other others, they just do not suit my needs and expectations.

Brownie

michael
06-13-2004, 01:30 PM
That's pretty much my thoughts too. If you don't draw the weapon exactly right, it will not release cleanly, unlike kydex. They do stick out a lot as Brownie said, which is another thing I don't like either. I guess they're okay for a cheap holster, but I don't think they are very well made. YMMV

JerryM
06-13-2004, 03:21 PM
I have used Fobus paddle holsters for at least four years. Most of my shoolting is with a .45. I have been shooting about 1,000 rounds per month with the .45. This year it has been about 600 rounds per month or so.
Most of the shooting I have done using the Fobus. I figure I have made at least 7,000 presentations using it. I have absolutely no complaints, and carry it sometimes concealed.

I do not quarrel with those who do not like that holster, and I have read of a few instances of breakage or some trouble with it. If so, then I would not use it either.

I do often wonder how much some of the critics have used it. Yes it is a very inexpensive holster, and usually someone makes the statement, "If you can't afford something better...."
Although I am not rich, I can afford any holster or gun or equipment I think I need. Yet, I use the Fobus Paddle a lot.
No, it is not my favorite holster, but in some instances it is my preference.

To each his own.

Jerry

DaveJames
06-13-2004, 08:54 PM
For a su-do concealment rig they work well imo, have used one for the sig 220 and it has done nicely, and I find the paddle is better designed then most leather makers products, hope they get every thing straighten out, fairly decent company to deal with

Al Lipscomb
06-16-2004, 11:08 AM
I have used a number of "inexpensive" holsters and thought they were great. Until I got a good holster, then my opinions changed. The price difference was not enough to worry about but the difference in carry was large.

Ike
06-16-2004, 03:28 PM
I have two Fobus holsters one for my G19 and one for my G26
I mostly carry in a Kramer Horse Hide leather holster OWB, because under a suit coat you can not carry most any OWB kydex holsters they all stick out too much except for the Fist thin Kydex pancake style that fits like a leather one of the same design. But when I am wearing a 5/11 vest or similar garment like a bomber leather jacket and I need to throw on a holster with one of my Glocks then I do not hesitate in carrying the Fobus paddle. If you carry always in the same spot and angle and you practice your draw thousands of times like I do and you should too, then the draw is so natural that you will not have a problem drawing out of a Fobus, the reason for the sticky draw from the wrong angle is for retention purposes. I have done thousands of draws from all my holsters and never had a problem from any of them.

JodyH
06-16-2004, 07:32 PM
Take your Fobus holster to a retention/disarm course and see how well you like it.
One solid sideways jerk and the rivets pop like they are velcro, and out drops your pistol.
Fobus is crap.

Ike
06-17-2004, 10:19 AM
Jody I carry my holster and gun concealed , no body has any idea that I am carrying a gun so no body is going to try to take my gun away before I peper spray him or get away from him so holster retention is not an issue except for police officers that are identified as officers because they wear and flash a badge or wear some kind of uniform that identifies them as such.
None of the concealment holsters are worth crap in the retention factor, they are all made for concealment and speed of draw, when it comes to concealment and quality the Milt Sparks and Kramer leather holsters are some of the best and when it comes to casual carry with loose coat attire the fobus is as good as any other Kydex holster, the paddle is secure it rides closer to the body then most other paddels and if you succeed to rip it off then Fobus will refund your money on the spot, that is more then you can say about some other makes.

MTS
06-17-2004, 02:28 PM
Take your Fobus holster to a retention/disarm course and see how well you like it.
One solid sideways jerk and the rivets pop like they are velcro, and out drops your pistol.
Fobus is crap.And kydex or leather won't?:)

Fobus holsters are what they are. Good "starter" holsters for someone not sure what they want.

Ike
06-17-2004, 03:23 PM
Or for specific uses like I use them for, casual throw on when you are leaving the house fast and you can wear a bulky Jacket that will conceal any OWB hard plastic that marks like hell under anything else.

JodyH
06-17-2004, 06:38 PM
And kydex or leather won't?:)

Fobus holsters are what they are. Good "starter" holsters for someone not sure what they want.

In the course I attended, the only holster that zippered open was a Fobus. My Blade-Tech survived unscathed, and all the leather holsters survived.
Fobus has the bad combination of fairly soft plastic along with riveted construction.
A cheap Uncle Mikes kydex is a much better choice.
Fobus is crap.
;)

JodyH
06-17-2004, 06:47 PM
Jody I carry my holster and gun concealed , no body has any idea that I am carrying a gun so no body is going to try to take my gun away


and if you succeed to rip it off then Fobus will refund your money on the spot, that is more then you can say about some other makes.

Nobody can conceal a firearm perfectly, and never be detected.
I make a game out of spotting the CCW'er at the mall, I regularly pick out one or two everytime I play it.
You need to pull your head out of the sand, the possibility of someone seeing your pistol and attempting a grab are very real. Prepare for the worst case scenario.
You do know that most defensive shootings happen inside 3 yards don't you? And a grab attempt will most likely be an interruption of your draw stroke. One of the best preventions to that kind of a grab is to shove the pistol firmly down into your holster and hold it there, while fighting with your support hand. With the Fobus, all it takes is for the BG to rip your hand and pistol downward and the rivets just pop right open.

A refund of my money does me no good if I'm killed because some BG was able to rip my pistol out of its holster.

sween1911
06-18-2004, 06:10 AM
I have a Fobus Roto-holster for 1911, and a dual 1911 mag pouch. Like someone said, they're good for first-timers who want to try something out without spending hundreds of dollars.

With a 42 oz. 1911 in it, it flops all around and the Roto-mechanism thing makes it stick way the hell out, but the one thing I've noticed that Fobus is GREAT for is your Airsoft/ForceOnForce/Training setup. It's nice to have an entire line of products for just about any airsoft weapon that's cheap and works fairly well. The paddle is handy for snapping on and off without threading belt loops etc, and I've used it for around-the-house carry occasionally, just to have a place to put the gun when it's not in my hand. It goes in my training bag and it's a good holster just to practice with, but I don't use it to carry the gun for public CCW.

The paddle-style mag pouch isn't too shabby though. It holds the mags in close to the body, they don't print, and it holds them fairly well. Since I obtained some Comp-Tac mag pouches, the Fobus pouch is kept with two mags next to my home-defense 1911 layout. You can slip the paddle right onto your boxer shorts or whatever you happen to be wearing at o-dark-thirty when you hear that bump in the night.

Ike
06-18-2004, 11:00 AM
Jody I do not know how many years you are carrying concealed?
But I am carrying for the last 36 years and no body has detected my concealed weapon during that time and I hope no body will in the future either.
Most of my life I have carried in a quality leather holster like a Bianchi , safariland , and since I discovered Milt Sparks and Kramer, thats what I carry inn 99% of the time, I do not like paddle holsters and or Kydex holsters because they print too much under a suit coat, so it is IWB or OWB leather for me , but when it comes to plastic or kydex they all are the same to me just some thing to have and use once in a million.
When it comes to retention none of the open top holsters is worth sh--- as a retrention holster and I could show you how it is done if we could ever meet, with out giving you time to ressist and know that some body is going after your gun. It is easy to ressist when you know that somebody is about to snatch your gun but a big surprise when you did not know, unless you are a uniformed officer with a level 3 security holster and you are ready for an attempt all the time. The best thing is to make the gun as invisible as possible and keep the element of surprise on your side.
Yes I agree that Fobus is not a very strongly built holster of a high quality but for somebody that uses plastic/kydex holsters only on a rare occasion it is as good as any thing else that is made from a similar material.

B0486
06-18-2004, 11:16 AM
I've seen a few mention kydex in the same sentence as Fobus.

Fobus is not made with kydex to my knowledge unless they have a new model I'm unaware of. The one I have and others I've seen are a cheap plastic you'd find on a kids toy that would undoubtedly last about as long the their toys.

Just thought I'd add it here before anyone gets the idea fobus uses kydex. Coorct me here if I'm missing a new model ow made from kydex folks.

Brownie

JerryM
06-18-2004, 01:27 PM
I believe that the retention problem for CHL holders is greatly overblown. When one attends a class the instructor knows you are carrying, and wants to make his point. I wonder if you could hit the instructor or stick a knife in his ribs when he grabs for your gun? Obviously that would be ridiculous, and we do not want to do such.
However, my point is that the class is an artificial situation.

I have been carrying for probably 12 years, and never been made. My friends who know I am carrying cannot detect it, because I dress and place my gun so that it cannot be detected by sight. It is not difficult.

Accordingly, there is not going to be a thug who runs up to me and grabs for my gun. He will not know I have it until I draw it.

For those who do not want to use a Fobus, then don't. I use mine sometimes, and have no fear of retention. It stays on better than my other paddle holsters from Uncle Mike and Galco. Both of those ride too high and are too difficult to draw from under a shirt worn outside the pants.

I have holsters from various makers including Sparks, Galco, Andrews, Hume, and Kramer. While I like Sparks the best, there are times when I use the Fobus, and will continue to do so.

Jerry

Ike
06-18-2004, 03:27 PM
Jerry well said.
brownie0486 if you would have read my post you would have found out that I said plastic/kydex referring to a type of holsters out there.
Do not make the mistake of thinking that because it feels and looks like childrens plastic toy material it is easely destructable , the garbage dumps are full of childrens plastic toys that survive years of abuse and still look the same.
If the plastic toys that my grand daughter plays with survive
the abuse then the Fobus should survive it also.
Correct me if I am wrong but didn't the FBI and some other law enforcement agencys issue the Fobus ?

JodyH
06-18-2004, 05:27 PM
But I am carrying for the last 36 years and no body has detected my concealed weapon during that time and I hope no body will in the future either.
That you know of.
;)
I've picked many, many CCW'ers out in the mall and they never knew they had been made.
I do this as part of my ongoing education as a CCW instructor. How can I recommend carry options and methods unless I see for myself what works and what doesn't.
Trust me, in 36 years someone has "made you".
...
...
I see a trend going here of people who are convinced that they will never be made, and that if they are made that nobody would try a snatch.
I hope for your sake, that you're right.

MTS
06-18-2004, 07:01 PM
That you know of.
;)
I've picked many, many CCW'ers out in the mall and they never knew they had been made.
I do this as part of my ongoing education as a CCW instructor. How can I recommend carry options and methods unless I see for myself what works and what doesn't.
Trust me, in 36 years someone has "made you".
...
...
I see a trend going here of people who are convinced that they will never be made, and that if they are made that nobody would try a snatch.
I hope for your sake, that you're right.
When you pick out a CCW'er in the mall how do you verify that your right?:confused:

Do you walk up, tap them on the shoulder and ask to see their gun?:)

sionaprhys
06-18-2004, 09:22 PM
When you pick out a CCW'er in the mall how do you verify that your right?:confused:

Do you walk up, tap them on the shoulder and ask to see their gun?:)

And without searching everyone in the mall, how do you know you didn't miss anyone?

JodyH
06-19-2004, 06:42 AM
You guys are right....... nobody will ever "make you".
You carry perfectly concealed all the time.
Fobus is the greatest holster made.
Carry on with your usual way of doing business.
I must have been mistaken, I've never seen anyone printing.
Ignorance is bliss.

JerryM
06-19-2004, 09:28 AM
Hi Jody,
There is no doubt that many CHL holders do not conceal their gun well. When you say you made some in the malls, I believe it. However, that does not establish that some of us who dress around the gun, position it properly, and are careful how we bend over can be detected. .

As I posted, I have several friends who are in LE, and one who is a CHL and LE firearms instructor. None of them has ever been able to see when I am carrying, and my instructor friend, who I see several time a week, has told me that he can never tell if I am carrying or not.

So while I do not doubt you, your spotting some carrying does not establish that you can spot all of us, or that the average thug will make us. Since they do not, they will not be rushing up to us and trying to take our guns.
LEOs have an entirely different situation, and that is why they have retention devices on their holsters.

No one said that the Fobus was the best holster. It is not and nowhere near the best. However, it is an adequate holster for many applications. To say that it is junk is just not true, regardless of the instructors who say so. I suspect that I have used one, and made more draws in one than any of those who are trashing them. If you do not want to use one, that is your choice, but when one asks about the holster, it is incumbent on us to state the facts from our own personal experience. I have done that.

It is not unusual for some answering a question to disregard the question and give all their opinions as to what the person should want. Sometimes that is helpful, but often it is not.

What are the best holsters made? We all have opinions, and mine is that Milt Sparks makes the best for my personal use. That does not mean that I do not find some fine holsters from other makers that do as well for a certain application. I have not used holsters from all makers, so I may be wrong, and I am sure some will disagree with my choices. That is why so many are in business.

I certainly do not know everything by a long way, but I also find many instructors so opinionated and prideful that they do not always give the best information. Some are very good, and some are not. No one has all the answers.

Have a good day.
Jerry

Tracy Hightower
07-05-2004, 09:00 PM
Sorry I am a little late in seeing this discussion but it is one that is very important to me personally and I wanted to ad my .02 Also I agree with Jerry that it is incumbent on us to state the facts as we see tham and so I now do so.

As an instructor, as well as a Police Ofiicer I have trained hundreds of students in weapon retention drills (Police Military and Civilian) and a number of those students were wearing Fobus Holsters. In all of the classes that we have done, NO FOBUS holster has EVER survived a weapon grab without the loss of the weapon and the destruction of the holster. Personally I like the Fobus Holsters and if the company would make the plastic thicker and the rivets stronger and larger then I would recommend them, but until then I cannot.

As far as retention, the primary weapon you have is your brain and using sound tactics and situational awareness to avoid letting someone get close enough to take your weapon. Additionally the skill to recognize the attackers intent to take your weapon through body language before an attack happens. However we don't always maintain that awareness or those skills and sometimes we make mistakes that cause us to have to fight for our weapons. As an example 17 percent of all officers killed in the line of duty in the year 2000 were killed with their own weapons.

If you believe that your ability to conceal your weapon is all you need then I wish you the best and I hope you never find yourself fighting on the ground with some bad guy who will soon know you have a weapon weather it was concealed or not and contrary to what some believe you can't shoot somebody that just wants to whip your ass.

The point I am trying to make is that a poor quality holster (and belt) will FAIL an attack on your weapon regardless of whatever tactics you employ to retain your weapon.

Regarding the Fobus, there are two trains of thought here, those that know it is a poor quality holster and believe if it is properly concealed that weapon retention will never be an issue and those that believe it is a quality holster that can retain a weapon using sound retention tactics. To the latter group, Since Fobus has a great warranty and will replace any holster you should never have to worry about your replacement, your surviving spouse can simply send it back for a brand new one.
just my .02

Nobody
07-05-2004, 10:09 PM
Tracy, I agree with much of what you say, but your statement that "you can't shoot somebody that just wants to whip your ass" is most certainly too general to be entirely correct. As a CHL holder, a person has a legal duty not to lose control of his or her weapon. If that person, through no fault of their own, comes under attack by a larger and stronger person or multiple persons, there is a disparity of force. Under such circumstances, the CHL holder is most likely justified in using deadly force to retain the weapon. As someone once said, a person carrying a gun cannot afford to lose a single fight.

The Fobus is not intended to be the equivalent of the Bianchi military holster. It is intended for use as a lightweight, undercover holster. I am not foolish enough to think that someone looking for my weapon will not notice a bulge under my shirt and perhaps make a try for the weapon. My response would be to assume that I was fighting for my life and the lives of others. I would strike immediately with both maiming and deadly force: eye-gouging, throat-punching, knife-stabbing, etc. I very much doubt that my attacker would be expecting such a response. I believe that I would be legally and morally justified in doing so. If a person is trying to "whip my ass" he will soon find himself fighting for his life. I hope that this would be your response as well if someone tries to take your weapon. I hope that you are not solely relying upon some mechanical retention device. As someone earlier said, the classroom is an artificial environment.

B0486
07-06-2004, 05:12 AM
Make no mistake about it.

If anyone is attempting to disarm you of your holstered weapon, I will consider that act an attempt on my life and act accordingly as I would in any other life threatening situation.

He's not trying to disarm you for any reason other than to turn your own gun on you.

Brownie

Al Lipscomb
07-06-2004, 07:13 AM
The nature of most attacks start at close distance. Unless a handgun is used by the BG to maintain distance, he is going to get close and jump in on you.

Once engaged the BG may very well detect your handgun by feel. Then while you are trying to keep one set of fingers out of your eye socket, the other hand will be trying to keep control of the gun. If the holster fails your problems just multiplied.

Yes a gun grab is reason to use leathal force. But you have to survive it. A lot of cops get shot by their own guns out of retention holsters. Yes the bad guy knew a gun was there at the start. But the point is that once the struggle starts things often end bad.

Get a good belt and a good hoster.

michael
07-06-2004, 07:15 AM
I agree that the Fobus is junk and have already said so. I also agree that an attempt to take my weapon becomes a life-or-death struggle and will treat it as such. Any attempt to do so will result in me doing anything and everything to end that situation as quickly as possible. That said, I am a big believer in quality holsters and belts for CCW wear. Fobus is not one of those.

Tracy Hightower
07-06-2004, 10:41 PM
Tracy, I agree with much of what you say, but your statement that "you can't shoot somebody that just wants to whip your ass" is most certainly too general to be entirely correct. As a CHL holder, a person has a legal duty not to lose control of his or her weapon. If that person, through no fault of their own, comes under attack by a larger and stronger person or multiple persons, there is a disparity of force. Under such circumstances, the CHL holder is most likely justified in using deadly force to retain the weapon. As someone once said, a person carrying a gun cannot afford to lose a single fight.

The Fobus is not intended to be the equivalent of the Bianchi military holster. It is intended for use as a lightweight, undercover holster. I am not foolish enough to think that someone looking for my weapon will not notice a bulge under my shirt and perhaps make a try for the weapon. My response would be to assume that I was fighting for my life and the lives of others. I would strike immediately with both maiming and deadly force: eye-gouging, throat-punching, knife-stabbing, etc. I very much doubt that my attacker would be expecting such a response. I believe that I would be legally and morally justified in doing so. If a person is trying to "whip my ass" he will soon find himself fighting for his life. I hope that this would be your response as well if someone tries to take your weapon. I hope that you are not solely relying upon some mechanical retention device. As someone earlier said, the classroom is an artificial environment.

Nobody,
Absolutely weapon retention is a deadly force issue (regardless of disparity of force or the number of attackers) and having done many deadly force lectures from civilian to Police in-service training I do agree and always preach that if someone is trying to take your weapon you are certainly justified in using deadly force and the manner in which that force is applied matters not.

I am sorry if my point about an ass whipping was too general and I will try to clarify. I was making the point to those that believe that proper concealment is sufficient for retaining a weapon for if someone does'nt know you have a weapon then they cannot take it. Many altercations begin with a verbal altercation then usually will proceed to a physical one. I was simply trying to say that when you find yourself on the ground wrestling someone it is quite possible that it is at this point that your opponent will discover your weapon and then try to relieve you of it. It is at that point it becomes a deadly force issue. I don't wish to confuse anyone further by getting into the disparity of force issue or for that matter deadly force in general as my/our deadly force lecture is approcimately 2 to 3 hours long. I have had many students say that they would draw down on someone before taking an ass whipping and my reply is usually that you cannot shoot someone who simply wants to whip your ass and that that ass whipping has to proceed to the point in which any reasonable person would be in fear of death or grave bodily injury. Deadly force can only be used in the immediate and otherwise unavoidable threat of death or grave bodily injury to that of an innocent person.

As a CHL holder you seem to have done your research and I applaud you for that as many people carry daily without a full understanding of when and when not one can use deadly force. In reality the hanguns we carry daily are the weapons that we ar least likely to use in most altercations. I have been in many verbal altercations, I have been in many physical altercations, I have pepper sprayed a good number of people, I have pointed guns at a good number of people but thankfully I have not been forced to carry out any threats of deadly force by taking anothers life. What this tells me and what I try to make my students understand is that Everyone should make a lifelong commitment to Avoidance, Deterrence and De-Escalation but failing that should have other means of defending themselves than just a gun. Tom Givens is fond of saying "That if all you have is a Hammer then everything begins to look like nails" If the only means of protecting yourself is a gun then that is most likely the weapon you will choose in any altercation and statistically it will be an innapropriate choice.

Regarding the last sentence of your first paragraph, A person carrying a gun in my opinion has a greater responsibility to avoid any type of altercation. If it is to dangerous to go there without a gun, it is to dangerous to go there with a gun.

As far as the classroom being an artificial environment it is probably true in that training can never replace the experience gained in an actual fight for your life provided you prevail. At Tactical Response and in Gabes classes (who by the way gave me my first training in weapon retention) after instuction the students do drills using training guns that allow the students to practice these new skills with the understanding that if you fail to retain your weapon during these drills then you die. With proper training and practice using the retention skills learned the "classroom" can be and is in my opinion a very effective means of learning and using these skills. Add to that a commitment to continue to train these skills using a partner and training guns the classroom can be the difference in whether a dedicated student will prvail in a real weapon retention attack.

For the record, I am very much enjoying this discussion, it is very nice for a change to partake in a discussion with intelligent and knowlegable people who simply want to discuss an issue without it having to become an argument.
Thank you all.

Grey Matter
07-25-2004, 07:46 PM
I bought one a year ago & one of the rivets broke after a weekend of presentations. I threw it away & did not bother with a replacement.

BTW, this is my first post & I really appreciate the civility & “tone” on this forum. It is a much welcome relief. Kudos to the owners & moderators.