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jackal
06-01-2004, 11:33 PM
What would you do if you are surrounded by opponents which is armed with melee weapons (using knife as an example)?
the opponents are skilled in knife-fighting and are stronger than you. Any general rules apply? is disarming a possibility?

DaveJames
06-02-2004, 12:51 AM
jackal, first welcome, the answer would be tuff enough with a handgun, and as I see your posting from Hong-Kong, it probaly not an option for you,

If useing a firearm, IMO, I would go for the one who showed the most threat, or is the mouth piece for the group, most of the time if you take the ring leader out it slows down, if not then I would goto,,the next threat with the next greatest threat weapon.And as soon as I created a hole, it would be "FULL TILT BOOGIE" retreat, to a safer place

TxCop312
06-02-2004, 01:33 AM
What would you do if you are surrounded by opponents which is armed with melee weapons (using knife as an example)?
the opponents are skilled in knife-fighting and are stronger than you. Any general rules apply? is disarming a possibility?

A shotgun would be helpful in that case. But seriously, like Dave said, create a hole and beat feet.

VaughnT
06-02-2004, 06:43 AM
First of all, don't get surrounded! The first thing I learned in elementary school was to back up against a wall and take them on from one direction. If they can't sneak up behind you, you are already one step closer to victory.

After that, the idea of going up against six guys, armed or not, isn't one that I relish. Take out the antagonist, the ringleader, and move as fast as you can to a safe haven.

If that's just not possible, for whatever reason, it's time to get mean. I mean mad dog mean. You're probably going to die so the only thing you have to worry about is dying well and that means taking down as many of those scumsuckers as you can.

Gabriel Suarez
06-02-2004, 08:54 AM
You know guys, its easy to paint yourself into a corner that you cannot win from, or a situation that you have so much against you that victory is impossible...or at least seems so.

Forget the multiple knife guys while you are unarmed! I'll do one better. All of a sudden you wake up in bed and there are 20 MP5 Armed members of the Taliban pointed in all around you, fingers on triggers, with orders to kill you. What technique would you use? Only one thing left - Die like a Viking!!

Do situations like this hapen on a daily basis? No. For example - why would you be in such a situation? All of a sudden twelve Kali masters decide to take you out, AND they brought all their knives, AND you are totally unarmed, AND you can't run away, AND...well, you get the idea.

First rule, don't go to stupid places with stupid people to do stupid things. Second rule, if you can't abide totally by the first rule (ie. sometimes we have to go to stupid places), always have something to fight with. Can't take a gun? Bring a knife! Can't take a knife? Buy one when you arrive...or steal one from a restaurant! Can't find a knife? Take a cane and limp a little. C'mon guys. Use the imagination. With a little creativity, you should never be unarmed.

Now to the fight. Remember the little El Sal soldier with the cheap Buck Knife knock off. Do you have the capacity for violence? Do you think you can hit your adversary hard enough to kill him if needed? If not, you better develop it.

Can you evade? If yes, that is a fight you need not fight. Can't evade? Then ATTACK! Only a fool fights a defensive fight. Even the best Kali trained FMA master will be diminished in skills with hot coffee dripping down his face, or an eye socket full of spit. In the meantime, ATTACK! I'd rather face a martial arts technical master than a man who has tossed his life away and has only the objective of taking me out. ATTACK!

So, that's it. Combat is simple....brutally simple.

Al Lipscomb
06-02-2004, 09:20 AM
Lo, there do I see my mother, and my sisters, and my brothers, Lo, there do I see the line of my people, back to the beginning, Lo, they do call to me, they bid me take my place among them, In the halls of Valhalla, where the brave may live forever!

michael
06-02-2004, 02:26 PM
Excellent points Gabe, and I agree completely. As one wise sage said, "The only fair fight is the one you're winning". There really is no reason to be unarmed. There's always something you can use, be it your belt, ink pen, cell phone to strike with, pepper shaker on the table, steak knife, chair, rocks, etc. The basic rule when fighting multiples is to maneuver yourself where your back is to a solid wall or object and force them to deal with you one at a time. And as already said--attack, attack, attack. Now is the time for ripping out eyeballs and throats, crushing windpipes, biting and anything else you can think of that is vicious. Gabe makes an excellent point about going to stupid places with stupid people--this is how most people get in trouble. Don't hang out in bars and bad areas of town--duh! Don't go to the ATM at 3:00 in the morning, or the Waffle House or anywhere else the drunks hang out. Be aware of your surroundings, notice who is around you, size everyone up for possible threats, don't let anyone get behind you, sit with your back to a wall in restaurants, on the back row in the theater, and on and on. Use common sense and pay attention!

Gabriel Suarez
06-02-2004, 03:30 PM
You know, I'm tempted to develop a curriculum (perhaps a 1/2 day class) on Improvised/Disguised Weapons Of Opportunity for the next Combat Skills Week in 2005. Too much Bravo Sierra floating around about this to ignore for too long.

michael
06-02-2004, 04:13 PM
I think that's an excellent idea, and after explaining different improvised weapons, spend a little time in showing how to use them. When I was training in Budo Taijutsu, we used to do this in class every so often, spending a good deal of time on how to use things like ink pens, belts, etc.

Al Lipscomb
06-02-2004, 08:00 PM
Not trying oversimplify or try to make light of that kind of situation. I have been backed into a corner by multiple attackers when I was a teenager. As they approached I watched one open a folding lockblade and hand it to another. Not a plesent situation. Lucky for me there was a garden hoe available and while I missed the swing at the head, they stopped and left.

If you are outnumbered and they are armed you had better know which way is out. That is to saftey, not just away from this group. Then you need to go through the person between you and your goal. You need to run up his chest, dance on his head and then keep going.

You want fingers to the eyes, knees to the groin, head butts, elbows, teeth etc. Bite his nose off if you have to. But that person will be out of your way and you can make your exit.

Geezer
06-02-2004, 10:57 PM
All the women in my family have been taught to bite the adam's apple. Crush it and that dude is not only out of this fight, he is likely out of all fights, forever.

Biting off ears and noses is not so good in court. My stepson got some jail time for that. There were three of them, but he got convicted of mutilation, or some darn thing.

I should also point out that taking out the leader, or the spokesperson does not necessarily work except in novels. Sometimes it just pisses the rest of them off more than they were to begin with.

God bless and y'all be careful out there.

sionaprhys
06-03-2004, 11:01 AM
I'm reminded of the old-timer talking to the tenderfoot-
"There I was, a hundred Apaches to the left of me, a hundred Commanches to the right of me, an angry boar grizzly behind me, a pack of rabid wolves in front of me, and I was all out of ammo."

"What happened?"

"I died, of course!"

If you can't defeat your enemy physically, you'll have to do it mentally. Negotiation, bluff, BS or just acting so crazy they don't want anything to do with you all might yield some advantage. In Gabe's scenario I might immediately respond with, "Praise Allah! Am I glad to see you guys!" Or, "Don't hit the sarin cannisters!" Or, if I'm familiar with the group involved (and speak Farsi or whatever), "Quit screwing around! (Insert local muckity-muck's name here) will be very upset if you shoot me!" ;)

Viciously taking out the leader may give you a psychological edge or possibly even scare off the rest provided you correctly identify the leader who may not be the same as the mouthpiece.


"Die like a viking!" I like that turn of phrase almost as much as "latte-swilling yuppie."* The vikings had a tactic, that was quite disconcerting to the romans, called the fountain of Tyr. When a viking lost a hand to a sword-stroke, he'd spray the blood in the face of his opponent and then take the roman dog to Valhalla with him.

*"The Tactical Rifle" :D

Dale Fricke
06-04-2004, 11:19 PM
Hi All

Judges 15:14-17 He came to Lehi, and the Philistines shouted against him. And the Spirit of Jehovah came mightily upon him, and the cords on his arms became as flax that has been burned with fire, and his bands loosed from off his hands.
And he found a new jawbone of an ass, and put forth his hand and took it, and killed a thousand men with it.
And Samson said, with the jawbone of an ass, heaps upon heaps; with the jawbone of an ass I have killed a thousand men. And it happened when he had made an end of speaking, he threw away the jawbone out of his hand, and called that place Hill of the Jawbone. :cool:

Id pray for victory as I reached out and cancelled the first guys birthday and the next and the next and the next until I ran out of adversaries or God called me home!!
DEF :D
out

BladeMaster
06-16-2004, 07:15 PM
I also agree Gabe!! One of the best instructors on the planet for the use of improvised weapons is...you guessed it, Jackie Chan! For me the fun of watching his films(other than his skills and humor) is his lessons in using your terrain and what is held therein. A short course from gum to gardenhoses as defensive weapons/distracters would be very cool. Keep us advised. Thanks .