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Gabe Suarez
03-12-2007, 09:20 AM
I've gotten many emails on this.

To zero the Kalashnikov Rifle. Set the rear sight to the "1", or 100 meter marking. Go out to 25 meters. Pace it or measure it. Measuring is better right.

Shoot to point of aim/point of impact at 25 meters. Do this from a sandbagged rest. I know we can all hold like a rock at 25, but for sake of uniformity...use a sandbag.

To move the point of impact use an AK sight tool. At $15-20 bucks its a bargain. OST may be carrying these soon (Russian ones).

To raise the point of impact, rotate the front sight post clockwise
To lower the point of impact, rotate the front sight post counter-clockwise.

Once set at 25 meters, verify it and fine tune it at 100 meters. Once zeroed, keep the sight set at the Battle sight zero...or the bottom last setting marked with a letter (mine say "P") and not a number. This will allow you to hit MOH (minute of hadji) out to about 300 or so.

It also allows you to use the calibration on the rear sight for the distances marked. For example, you want to hit at 400? raise the ladder to "4" or 400 meters.

In reality, I think iron sights are useful to about 250-300 meters. After that, you will likely not see the adversary, or not be able to hit with the limits of iron sights. I am referring to actual field situations and not firng at a fixed un-moving target in a shooting range environment.

OK...

EyEsopen
03-12-2007, 12:10 PM
Conversion Table


Meters to Feet


m - Feet
25 - 82

50 - 164

75 - 246

100 - 328

125 - 410

150 - 492

175 - 574

200 - 656

225 - 738

250 - 820

275 - 902

300 - 984

325 - 1066

350 - 1148

375 - 1220

400 - 1302

I hope this helps

t18man
04-21-2007, 09:51 AM
The fuller rear sight is shorter than the sight on my WASR rifle. The sliding elevation drum does not engage the cam(sight base) for the battle field zero. At its furthest rearward position(battle field zero) it is sitting in the 100 meter part of the cam(sight base). Do you place the drum at 100 meters and zero resulting in the front sight being much higher? Or is there a better way?

Thanks
T18man

Gabe Suarez
04-21-2007, 09:57 AM
The fuller rear sight is shorter than the sight on my WASR rifle. The sliding elevation drum does not engage the cam(sight base) for the battle field zero. At its furthest rearward position(battle field zero) it is sitting in the 100 meter part of the cam(sight base). Do you place the drum at 100 meter and zero resulting in the front sight being much higher? Or is there a better way?

Thanks
T18man

Fuller sights are in the 800 meter length which are less prome to snag on things than the 1000 meter length. Place the slider on 100 and zero at 25 meters. Then go to 100 meters and make sure your windage is correct.

With the rifle set this way, you can move the slider to the farthest rea position which should have a letter (A in some P in others) and be minute of man zeroed out to 250-300 meters.

If your slider is stiff, try putting a drop of oil on it. I know Jim checks all the sights for function before sending them out. I f that doesn't work send me an email and we will debug it.

TacticalSquirrel
04-22-2007, 06:55 PM
Since the Kobra sits higher over bore, has anyone found the proper distance to sight in the Kobra? Anyone looked into what possibilities the reticles have as rangefinders and BDC's for use at extended distances of 300-400 yards? How about what amount of movement occurs at distances with the 7 clicks or so of windage and elevation adjustment available?

Karl Kasarda
04-22-2007, 07:20 PM
Since the Kobra sits higher over bore, has anyone found the proper distance to sight in the Kobra? Anyone looked into what possibilities the reticles have as rangefinders and BDC's for use at extended distances of 300-400 yards? How about what amount of movement occurs at distances with the 7 clicks or so of windage and elevation adjustment available?
You can do this yourself wih a ballistic calculator like at this url:

http://www.handloads.com/calc/

If you're talking about a normal 7.62x39 AK:

2300 FPS
Bullet Ballistic Coefficient of .299
Bullet diameter: .311
Bullet weight: 122-124 grains

Measure the sight height from the center of the bore to the center of the optic - with a side mounted Kobra I'd guess it's around 3", but measure for yourself. (I know that a PK-AS-V is 4.75 and a PK-23-01 is 3.5")

Then play with the different 'zero distances' and check the bullet impact field. Sight height makes a big difference!

For example, I zero my irons at 25 yards, but with my PK-AS-V I zero at 50 yards due to the sight height. This keeps the irons at minute of man to 300 yards as well as the PK-AS-V.

xj0hnx
07-06-2007, 05:42 PM
When I zero at 25m on the 0 mark, and I go out to 300 I hit below the target, I have to move up to 4 to be fairly on a 300m torso size target, and then it's fairly consistant. Shooting at 200 is about the same story.

What is the distance per turn that the point of impact moves on the front sight? And at what distance?

Guantes
07-06-2007, 09:41 PM
The information I have indicates that for an AK sighted for and shooting at 100 meters a full turn of the front sight (up or down) will change the POI, 20 cm or 7.8".

The methodology is complicated. The correction factor for an AK set at 100 meters is .0378 (based on the sighting line of 378mm/distance between the front and rear sight). A shot 10cm (4") low would require lowering the front sight 0.0378 times 10 equaling 0.378mm/approx 0.4mm or .015". As the distance at which the rear sight is set increases, the sighting line (distance between the front and rear sight) decreases, decreasing the correction factor and thereby the actual sight correction.

bae
06-29-2008, 05:03 PM
Hijacked from another thread:



Most folks take 60-100 (Yes they actually do!) to BZO an AK and the time spent can run into a few hours for some.


100 rounds and several hours seems....excessive to me. What are they doing wrong?

DavePAL84
06-29-2008, 06:30 PM
I can personally recommend these AK zero targets:
http://www.ak-47.net/store/target.php

Simply shoot a group at 25m and adjust the sights as the target indicates. I've used them several times and they have been great. I never found zeroing an AK to be too terribly difficult but these targets make it even easier.
http://www.ak-47.net/images/AKtarget.jpg

I also second Gabe's recommendation of a front sight tool. Without it, it's very difficult to adjust your front sight with any kind of accuracy.

The Bad Guy
06-29-2008, 07:52 PM
Nice target bro - thanks. What size does it need to be printed at? 8-1/2 x 11 or actual size from this picture?

DavePAL84
06-29-2008, 09:11 PM
Nice target bro - thanks. What size does it need to be printed at? 8-1/2 x 11 or actual size from this picture?

I don't know, I just spent the $10 for the 25 targets. I think the targets are more like 11x14. Without a ruler I can't be sure.

Richard Coplin
06-29-2008, 09:17 PM
On their website they state that the targets are printed on 8.5X11 paper.

DavePAL84
06-30-2008, 07:46 AM
On their website they state that the targets are printed on 8.5X11 paper.

Perhaps I should've pulled out the targets to look at them before I posted. I haven't used one in about a month.

sledge hammer
07-04-2008, 07:21 AM
Perhaps I should've pulled out the targets to look at them before I posted. I haven't used one in about a month.

Did you find out what actual size your targets are at? I'd like to know, as well. :D

gunplumber
07-12-2008, 06:27 PM
This is something I'm experimenting with. Feedback is welcome. Non-commercial duplication is fine.

Only comment is if you are printing it, to drag the size to cover the complete 8.5x11 page - if your computer ads margins then the square in the middle will be smaller than 1" - and 1" is what the other distances are based upon. Its for the 100 setting - using the 300 "P" or "U" depending on country of origin changes everything, although perhaps I can add those in.. If y'all can verify or correct the math, I can redo the target or try to draw it more neatly than my kid's protractor and a ruler.

http://www.arizonaresponsesystems.com/wp/ak47zerotarget.jpg

t18man
08-04-2008, 02:23 PM
Fuller sights are in the 800 meter length which are less prome to snag on things than the 1000 meter length. Place the slider on 100 and zero at 25 meters. Then go to 100 meters and make sure your windage is correct.

With the rifle set this way, you can move the slider to the farthest rea position which should have a letter (A in some P in others) and be minute of man zeroed out to 250-300 meters.

If your slider is stiff, try putting a drop of oil on it. I know Jim checks all the sights for function before sending them out. I f that doesn't work send me an email and we will debug it.

This may not be correct for some rifles. If your rifle came with a long 1000 meter sight, like a Wasr 10 for example, and you replace it with a short 800 meter sight and zero it per the instructions above, your rifle's POI will be about 3-4 inches low at 100 meters. When you put a short sight on a rifle made for a long sight, the sight is to short and the slider will not engage the battle field zero cam at the end of the rifle's sight base. Moving the slider to the "A or P" will just lower the rear sight more. With a Wasr 10 and a short 800 meter sight it is best to leave the slider at the 100 meter mark after zeroing.

Now Ak's were made by may diffirent countrys. Sights vary, The Yogo M70's come's with a short 1000 meter sight. You can replace it with a short 800 meter sight and zero per the instructions above. Of coarse your POI may be a little off at ranges greater than 300 meter but if your target is big enough to see that far away then it won't mattter much.

This is all sort off academic though. At close range it is not going to matter much if you hit the heart or head a 1/2 inch high or low.

Cayley

vcpk9
09-30-2008, 04:50 PM
I have an AK-105 clone(5.45) with a 12.25 inch barrel with a 1000meter sight. Should I use the above zero procedure or a standard 50 yard zero? What would be a more accurate zero for this calibre?

Karl Kasarda
09-30-2008, 06:01 PM
Just start at 25. Get everything windage happy, and elevation as well.

Then put the target at 100 meters, the sight at 100 meters, and zero at 100 meters.

The sights, as designed, work well for the marked designations with the appropriate ammo.

Gabe Suarez
09-30-2008, 07:29 PM
This may not be correct for some rifles. If your rifle came with a long 1000 meter sight, like a Wasr 10 for example, and you replace it with a short 800 meter sight and zero it per the instructions above, your rifle's POI will be about 3-4 inches low at 100 meters. When you put a short sight on a rifle made for a long sight, the sight is to short and the slider will not engage the battle field zero cam at the end of the rifle's sight base. Moving the slider to the "A or P" will just lower the rear sight more. With a Wasr 10 and a short 800 meter sight it is best to leave the slider at the 100 meter mark after zeroing.

That is true. To use the BZO and range adjustments on the AK you need to use the same sort of sight (800 or 1000) as came on the gun. You can still use the 800, but you won't be able to use the sliding adjustments (if that matters to you)

vcpk9
10-01-2008, 09:43 AM
Thank you.

Bowastya
11-12-2008, 11:39 AM
I have an M70 Yugo that has no letter (P or otherwise) on the sight. With the adjustment barrel all the way back it indicates with a "0" (zero). Am I understanding you correctly that from the 1 (100m) setting you should dial in at 25m and again at 100m, then move barrel adjstment "All the way back" which in my case is a "0" (zero)?? Yes, I'm a newbie.

BackWoods08
11-14-2008, 07:05 PM
What size targets are people using for sight in with irons on the AK? I tried to use a standard 100 yard circle target and it was pretty hard for me to see it at 25 meters but i did have some half way decent groups but not real great more sub-side of the barn then sub-moa

mzmtg
11-16-2008, 05:43 PM
How do I line up the slider with the marks on the rear sight?

Do I line up the front edge, rear edge or middle with the line painted on the sight leaf?

Prairie Fire
11-16-2008, 09:32 PM
Run the slider all the way to the rear limit of its travel, to the BSZ/300 position. You will see that the front of the slider is aligned with the hash mark, and can assume that other range marks will also be aligned on the front of the slider.

mzmtg
11-17-2008, 04:01 AM
Run the slider all the way to the rear limit of its travel, to the BSZ/300 position. You will see that the front of the slider is aligned with the hash mark, and can assume that other range marks will also be aligned on the front of the slider.

My Saiga only has 1,2 and 3 markings.

Is there any way for me to locate the BSZ/300 setting in this case?

TrnHrd
11-18-2008, 03:29 PM
Thanks for the info on the eastern sights; does anyone happen to have a good general sight height estimate for the standard 800/1k meter irons?

The other one I'd be interested in is a sight height for an Ultimak mounted Aimpoint Micro. I know, I should measure these myself, but don't have rifles in hand. Jim is working his shop hard I'm sure, in line with keeping healthy of course.

Appreciate the info here.

ReconScout
11-19-2008, 11:36 AM
For those who are new to zeroing the AK, I found this web site that breaks down zeroing as simple as possible.
http://www.gunsnet.net/Linx310/sightin.htm

Cheers.

eddie080
11-19-2008, 12:33 PM
Originally Posted by t18man
This may not be correct for some rifles. If your rifle came with a long 1000 meter sight, like a Wasr 10 for example, and you replace it with a short 800 meter sight and zero it per the instructions above, your rifle's POI will be about 3-4 inches low at 100 meters. When you put a short sight on a rifle made for a long sight, the sight is to short and the slider will not engage the battle field zero cam at the end of the rifle's sight base. Moving the slider to the "A or P" will just lower the rear sight more. With a Wasr 10 and a short 800 meter sight it is best to leave the slider at the 100 meter mark after zeroing.


That is true. To use the BZO and range adjustments on the AK you need to use the same sort of sight (800 or 1000) as came on the gun. You can still use the 800, but you won't be able to use the sliding adjustments (if that matters to you)

Question: What if your rifle came with an 800 meter rear sight and a 1000 m. were to replace it? Any issues with that?

TennDECA
11-22-2008, 08:15 PM
My Saiga only has 1,2 and 3 markings.

Is there any way for me to locate the BSZ/300 setting in this case?

I would also like to know if zeroing a stock Saiga is the same as mentioned above. I'm stuck with the factory Saiga sights until I can get my gun to Jim.

BackWoods08
11-22-2008, 08:42 PM
I would also like to know if zeroing a stock Saiga is the same as mentioned above. I'm stuck with the factory Saiga sights until I can get my gun to Jim.

Your not "stuck" with the factory sights you can do a simple change out with a standard AK sight and a flat screwdriver or drill press it's a 2 minute fix to a crappy set of sights

TennDECA
11-22-2008, 09:36 PM
Your not "stuck" with the factory sights

Ok, you're right. I should have said that I'm not going to spend the money on new sights until I have Jim do the whole rifle, especially since the factory sights are adequate for my current needs. I want to change them eventually, but for now they'll do.

Just want to know if the zero procedure is the same as the standard AK sights (as well as the BZO).

BackWoods08
11-22-2008, 09:52 PM
Ok, you're right. I should have said that I'm not going to spend the money on new sights until I have Jim do the whole rifle, especially since the factory sights are adequate for my current needs. I want to change them eventually, but for now they'll do.

Just want to know if the zero procedure is the same as the standard AK sights (as well as the BZO).


I had a Saiga for a little while but then I traded out for a kit so I never shot it it just sat in my safe in the box if you search there is a AK fourm with a saiga section you may ask there I would say its the 1 setting you can always give that a try and go from there

mzmtg
01-06-2009, 09:55 AM
Your not "stuck" with the factory sights you can do a simple change out with a standard AK sight and a flat screwdriver or drill press it's a 2 minute fix to a crappy set of sights

What is "crappy" about the Saiga sights besides the fact that they are "only" marked for 300 meters?

Do I really need to be able to set my iron sights for longer distances than that? No, I don't.

TennDECA
01-06-2009, 11:36 AM
Actually, I took my NIB Saiga x39 out to the range last weekend to break it in and attempt to zero the factory sights. Frankly, I'm fairly new to rifles (AK's in particular) and I thought I'd have a difficult time zeroing the sights. I was pleasantly surprised.

Now, I'm not sure what type of MOA I should expect from a bone-stock Saiga x39, but I was consistently knocking down bowling pins at 150 yards, from the bench, with the factory sights... WITHOUT TOUCHING THEM!

All I did was move the rear sight back to the BZO setting and after about 20 practice shots, was consistenly able to knock down bowling pins at 150 yards sitting at the bench and using the attached 30 rnd mag as a "unipod". I'm sure the sights could be fine-tuned, but for now, I'm happy.

BackWoods08
01-06-2009, 12:54 PM
What is "crappy" about the Saiga sights besides the fact that they are "only" marked for 300 meters?

Do I really need to be able to set my iron sights for longer distances than that? No, I don't.

Ok so don't change them I was simply replying to a question as to how to do something YMMV

mzmtg
01-07-2009, 04:24 AM
Ok so don't change them I was simply replying to a question as to how to do something YMMV

I was simply asking what's crappy about them.

If there is some real advantage to swapping in an AK sight leaf, I'd be interested to know what it is.

citizensoldier
01-07-2009, 06:45 AM
I was simply asking what's crappy about them.

If there is some real advantage to swapping in an AK sight leaf, I'd be interested to know what it is.

Not alot that I noticed when I did but I was given my leaf sight by a friend who ordered a KCI peep sight.

CS

onetuza
01-19-2009, 01:30 PM
OK, so I'm a newbie with a new M70ab2 that I'd like to zero in. It seems all of the talk here is about zeroing in at 25 meters and 100 meters. I get that the rifle & sights were designed for metric, but . . . My outdoor rifle range has fixed target holders at 25, 50, 100 & 200 YARDS! The pistol side where I can also fire the AK, has fixed targets at 15 yards and 25 yards. I can do the math to convert, but the targets are fixed. What method do I use under these circumstances? Would I use 25 yards and 100 yards?
(My indoor range is 25 yards max) :confused:
Thanks

TrnHrd
01-19-2009, 03:31 PM
I wouldn't sweat this much, just use yards. At shorter ranges, the differences are often not even noticeable, unless you have an accurate rifle, decent ammo, and most importantly a good shooter.

Training would be the most important thing, when it comes to effective shot placement, in real life. (just IMO).

Maddog6
02-05-2009, 12:04 PM
If you happen to run into this situation while zeroing your AK;

"On my rifle the front sight was all of the way to the left and the rifle still placed its shots to the left. I was not very happy with my new AK."

You can try what worked for me. I wanted to open the rear sight for quicker acquisition anyway so I filed only the right inside portion of the rear sight. This moves the front sight to the right while aiming. Way right as a matter of fact. This solution allowed me to move the front sight to the right while sighting in the rifle and now the front sight is almost centered between the ears. I am now a happy camper...er' shooter!

Maddog6 :cool:ut!

Sweeper
06-06-2009, 02:15 PM
If you happen to run into this situation while zeroing your AK;

"On my rifle the front sight was all of the way to the left and the rifle still placed its shots to the left. I was not very happy with my new AK."

You can try what worked for me. I wanted to open the rear sight for quicker acquisition anyway so I filed only the right inside portion of the rear sight. This moves the front sight to the right while aiming. Way right as a matter of fact. This solution allowed me to move the front sight to the right while sighting in the rifle and now the front sight is almost centered between the ears. I am now a happy camper...er' shooter!

Maddog6 :cool:ut!

Just picked up another AK, took it out & sighted it in to BSZ, elevation is dead on but windage is 6" right @ 25m, that's with the FSB as far right as it will go, sounds like Maddog6's solution would work, is there anything else that can be done? The ears on the FS look like they're perpendicular to the gas tube, would adjusting the FS to the right allow further adjustment to right, or would it throw the sight picture too far off?:confused:

MTS
06-06-2009, 08:33 PM
Here's an article about front sight cant.

It is specific to Romanian AK's but I imagine it would apply to others as well.

http://www.gunsnet.net/Linx310/cant.htm

Sweeper
06-08-2009, 01:06 PM
Here's an article about front sight cant.

It is specific to Romanian AK's but I imagine it would apply to others as well.

http://www.gunsnet.net/Linx310/cant.htm

Thanks for the info, I don't have any cant to speak of in the FSB or the gas tube, found another rear sight that has a windage adjustment on it, but I think I will try massaging the rear sight aperture next.

Sweeper
06-09-2009, 11:34 AM
Just got back from the desert range, I filed out the rear sight 1/8" to the left as you're looking from the rear of the rifle, increased the front sight pin elevation 3/4 turn. I did this one round at a time at 25m, then moved the target out to 100m, further adjustment...next round was in the 10x :D.
The last group of 3 rds were in a 3" circle, that's what I like about my AK's, easy to work on and easy to fix. :cool:

WIG19
07-10-2009, 05:48 AM
searched this and related threads.
Standard 1000m Romanian slider; there is a definite notch in the ladder just prior to moving it all the way back to the BZO ('P'), between the BZO and the 100m line. It engages on the way up the rearmost part of the ramp, so wouldn't think it's for some notional 50m setting.

Anyone have any info as to what the intent was of that in-between notch?

MTS
07-10-2009, 08:10 AM
searched this and related threads.
Standard 1000m Romanian slider; there is a definite notch in the ladder just prior to moving it all the way back to the BZO ('P'), between the BZO and the 100m line. It engages on the way up the rearmost part of the ramp, so wouldn't think it's for some notional 50m setting.

Anyone have any info as to what the intent was of that in-between notch?

There is a web site with a lot of information specific to Romy AK's. I checked the zeroing page and noting was said about an extra notch before the BZO/P notch.

http://www.gunsnet.net/Linx310/sightin.htm

WIG19
07-10-2009, 08:19 AM
There is a web site with a lot of information specific to Romy AK's. I checked the zeroing page and noting was said about an extra notch before the BZO/P notch.Thanks. Now that I've got my Ultimak bolted on I was gonna re-check my zero this weekend with a variety of stuff. So I guess I'll just shoot it and find out what happens. Maybe it's some special zombie setting.
:)

MTS
07-10-2009, 08:21 AM
Thanks. Now that I've got my Ultimak bolted on I was gonna re-check my zero this weekend with a variety of stuff. So I guess I'll just shoot it and find out what happens. Maybe it's some special zombie setting.
:)

Maybe shoot 5-10 rounds @50 on the P setting and then do the same with the other notch and check the difference?

WIG19
07-10-2009, 08:45 AM
Maybe shoot 5-10 rounds @50 on the P setting and then do the same with the other notch and check the difference?That be the plan sir!
:D

Prairie Fire
07-10-2009, 08:37 PM
I don't know of any Commie doctrine to support the use of the notch that is lower than the 100m setting. Just conjecturing here, I would imagine that training would be to look at the scale on the leaf while setting sight elevation, not to look or feel for an unmarked setting. Translate that thought into some brutality and twelve languages, and you have a command economy concept.

Consider some applied industrial psychology. In a command economy (slave labor or nuanced differences in the work force above that level, to include what ours is becoming), it might be easier to just say, "Mill out fourteen notches", rather than to say, "Mill out twelve notches, skip one since it has no purpose in the People's fight against Capitalist tyranny, then mill out the last, fourteenth notch." Even political commissars sometimes knew when to throw in the towel.

WIG19
07-13-2009, 05:00 AM
I don't know of any Commie doctrine to support the use of the notch that is lower than the 100m setting. Just conjecturing here, I would imagine that training would be to look at the scale on the leaf while setting sight elevation, not to look or feel for an unmarked setting. Translate that thought into some brutality and twelve languages, and you have a command economy concept.

Consider some applied industrial psychology. In a command economy (slave labor or nuanced differences in the work force above that level, to include what ours is becoming), it might be easier to just say, "Mill out fourteen notches", rather than to say, "Mill out twelve notches, skip one since it has no purpose in the People's fight against Capitalist tyranny, then mill out the last, fourteenth notch." Even political commissars sometimes knew when to throw in the towel.You crack me up.:D
But you may be closer to the truth. The notch is not actually lower than the 100, it starts up the hill toward the P. I didn't check it against the P yet (and note this effort is only to satisfy my own curiosity as I spend as little time tied to a bench as necessary). I did take a few shots after checking some things post-Ultimak install. At 50yds it's 5" higher than what the POI is when the slider is set at 100. Had to curtail as some trap-league guys were setting up.

I'll get a couple of our bass tournament posters & shoot it, incl 100 yds, from all 3 settings.

WIG19
07-16-2009, 08:26 AM
I'll get a couple of our bass tournament posters & shoot it, incl 100 yds, from all 3 settings.Well AK bench work ain't my favorite thing but I do want to know where the gun is going to shoot. Verified good zero at 100yds, on the 100 notch and :
- at 200 notch, POI +6" (ballistically this yields approx 260yd zero)
- at 300 notch, POI +15"
- at BZO ('P') approx +15" also (this was also a phenomenally good group so I either got lucky or that's a real solid position on the ladder)
- at this 1/2 way back notch under discussion, about +10" (which is ostensibly the old Soviet 300m zero. 'Course I also read this was the armorer's job; indiv soldiers didn't zero their own weapons I read somewhere.)

Thinking back to Prairie Fire's hypothesis (perhaps a question for Jim Fuller), I wonder if there are inconsistencies in milling of the sight notches among the various Combloc countries. I'll still shoot it at distance to check, but +15 at 100 does not yield best practical BZO. It would be even higher further out at the intermediate ranges before it started to plummet back to a 300 POI or so. At the current setting its so high that - closer in where our eyes might actually bring some precision to bear - we can't. I'd rather have it somewhat flatter and be somewhat low out at 300, and a bit lower at closer range isn't gonna be an impact.

Again, the AK has its utility off the bench, but I see no reason to not know where the most effective sight setting is. Nope, I don't plan on playing with the ladder all the time; I just want to get the most effective setting for MYgun-MYeyes-MYsight. I'll try to verify the story "out there" at 300yds this weekend when I go across the river & visit the state that elected Al Franken.

MTF. :cool:

Combat Medic
07-16-2009, 09:20 AM
Hope this is not a dumb question is the zeroing policy the same for AK-74? I mean the bullet flies differently than the AKM.....Faster and all that....still zero at 25 meters?

WIG19
07-20-2009, 06:03 AM
I'll try to verify the story "out there" at 300yds this weekend when I go across the river & visit the state that elected Al Franken.Managed to get out on a relatively calm morning yesterday and checked the BZO setting at distance.

Put up an old lifesize FBI silhouette 'cause my D1 would've disappeared against the background; stuck a Shoot & See in the middle as an aiming point. But am very pleased with my Warsaw Pact battle-axe, still had 3:5 that would've been serious chest hits and 1 on each upper arm. Windage stayed superb so I suppose, as the old saying goes, the gun will do if you will do. This was no fancy bench setup, either. Just held the fore-end and kept elbow down leaned across a shooting table; the AK pistol grip angle lends itself to that practically-speaking anyway. It's not a .270 bolt gun and, for me, it's uncomfortable to try to shoot it like one.

'Bout +8" still at 300yds; imagine it's on its way down to crossing line of sight at around 350. I will probably take a 1/2 turn off the elevation to get down to a bit more precision throughout the range of 1-300yds. I did catch myself - when looking at that tiny silhouette "out there" - wanting to 'cheat' a little on the high side when aiming, but resisted. I think that's probably a normal thing when we see a target that we know is out close to our practical optical limit; to me that's the worth of knowing where the gun shoots, so we can trust the gun.

But the gun will certainly make hits out there if you can see what you're shooting at, and could get really fun with a 4-MOA red dot on it. I know I wouldn't want me shooting at me, and certainly not someone with really good eyes. There's alot to that movement-to-cover timing phrase of "I'm up - he sees me - I'm down."
;)

Back to the good stuff and off the bench.

MTS
07-20-2009, 09:31 AM
Just dropping in here...

The Battlesight (rearmost) setting on a 7.62x39 AK corresponds with the "3" position, while on a 5.45x39 AK74 it corresponds with the "4".

Soviet zeroing was firing at a 100m target with the sight leaf set at 3 (7,62x39) or 4 (5,45) and adjusting for a point of impact 25cm (7,62x39) or 13cm (5,45) above the point of aim. This method gives minute-of-man hits out to 300m with AK-47/AKM and 440m with AK-74 with the sight set at the battlesight.

Doctrinally a soviet soldier would never use the 1, 2 or 3 (or 4 on AK-74) sight settings on his rifle because he should be using the battlesight setting at those ranges.

Hmmm...

Perhaps a two notch AK rear sight would be the way to go?

A close range notch for 0-300(+/-) and then a second notch for longer range?

Karl Kasarda
07-20-2009, 09:33 AM
Hmmm...

Perhaps a two notch AK rear sight would be the way to go?

A close range notch for 0-300(+/-) and then a second notch for longer range?


That's the "suchka" config.

WIG19
07-20-2009, 10:14 AM
Just dropping in here...

The Battlesight (rearmost) setting on a 7.62x39 AK corresponds with the "3" position, while on a 5.45x39 AK74 it corresponds with the "4".

Soviet zeroing was firing at a 100m target with the sight leaf set at 3 (7,62x39) or 4 (5,45) and adjusting for a point of impact 25cm (7,62x39) or 13cm (5,45) above the point of aim. This method gives minute-of-man hits out to 300m with AK-47/AKM and 440m with AK-74 with the sight set at the battlesight.

Doctrinally a soviet soldier would never use the 1, 2 or 3 (or 4 on AK-74) sight settings on his rifle because he should be using the battlesight setting at those ranges.Thanks! :)
I'd been curious about CombatMedic's AK-74 question also. Your doctrinal observation dovetails with what I read when I made a Soviet-style target (or rather had grand-daugher make*) with some black construction paper. My BZO and '3' groups ended up at the same spot 'cause they are the same settings.

Combat Medic
07-20-2009, 01:18 PM
Just dropping in here...

The Battlesight (rearmost) setting on a 7.62x39 AK corresponds with the "3" position, while on a 5.45x39 AK74 it corresponds with the "4".

Soviet zeroing was firing at a 100m target with the sight leaf set at 3 (7,62x39) or 4 (5,45) and adjusting for a point of impact 25cm (7,62x39) or 13cm (5,45) above the point of aim. This method gives minute-of-man hits out to 300m with AK-47/AKM and 440m with AK-74 with the sight set at the battlesight.

Doctrinally a soviet soldier would never use the 1, 2 or 3 (or 4 on AK-74) sight settings on his rifle because he should be using the battlesight setting at those ranges.

would you mind kindly breaking that down for me? thats pretty confusing. I don't know a whole lot about bullet drop......

so basically you put the rear sight on the highest setting 3 or 4 then shoot at 100m target at 25m.

Adjust Front sight so its shooting to 15cm above the 100m silouette.

What does that do to the POI when put back on 1 or battlesight?

im sorry I really would like to understand thanks for your time

Jonathan

MTS
07-20-2009, 04:25 PM
Forget 25m when using Soviet method. 25m is for decadent capitalists who shoot in airconditioned indoor ranges.

AK-74: Put a bullseye target at 100m. Set rear sight on "4". Aim at center of bullseye. Adjust bullet strikes to hit 15cm above point of aim (center of bullseye). Once zeroed set rear sight for battlesight (rearmost), then you are good for torso hits to 440m without rear sight adjustment when aiming center mass.

1 and battlesight are not the same. On AK-74, 4 and battlesight are the same.

If you are shooting @100M why not just put your rear sight on "1" and zero POA/POI?:confused:

Or is part of the zeroing drill the exercise you get walking 200M to measure your targets?;)

Inquiring decadent capitalist minds want to know.:p

Pokeguyjai
07-20-2009, 06:29 PM
Kentuckski Vindage

How would that be written in Cyrillic?






:D;):dope:

WIG19
07-21-2009, 05:00 AM
Aim at center of bullseye.It's been my experience that when using a black bullseye for establishing a point of impact with an open-sighted gun it's more productive for many shooters to hold at 6 o'clock on the black bull, perching it on top of the front sight. For most people it seems to work better optically, since the object is to take the same point of aim each time, rather than score 10's and X's. Otherwise, for many, it's quite easy to "lose" the black front sight post inside the black bull trying to 'find' the middle. Just a suggestion.

As mentioned before, grand-daughter & I made a Soviet-manual type zero target with the black rectangle (I forget dimensions but it was something like 27" tall x 14" wide or something.) At any rate, the idea was that at 100m, the front sight post appears the same width as the black bar on the target (it does), and then the shooter perches that on top of the front post. One is supposed to have that black bar surrounded by a giant white background so that one can tell when the front sight is at the bottom of the black bar - also a situation where the round black bull on top of the straight post works better as a point of reference (not to shoot 10's in center to win stuffed animals).

Bottom-line (just my view): For those who can only shoot at 100m (most folks), zero it at 100 as Gabe has mentioned (especially to refine your windage) before setting the sight on the rear-most BZO setting. If you like you can find out how high above 100m it should be when set to BZO (rear-most setting), refine that & leave it. In the case of 7.62x39, the goal was 25cm above point-of-aim at 100 when set to the BZO setting, about 10".

I only got into this because I found that moving the sight to the BZO after the recommended 100yd zero put the POI quite a bit higher than it really should be - even beyond the 350yd zero which made it ridiculously high at intermediate ranges I can see at. I've now got it back to minute-of-man, rather than minute of Hannibal's elephant. The whole goal, for me anyway, was to simply get the gun where I knew where the round was going then forget about it. If, out of the blue, a longer shot is called for I can put the sights on the target for the first shot anyway, not 15" lower or hedging about it.

Combat Medic: The problem with old doctrine battlesight zero settings (7.62x39, for example) is that there is a trade-off - no free lunch. At 300yds the round is still nearly a foot higher than point of aim (but dropping fast back to point of aim around 350 or so), assuming you have those young kid's eyes. At intermediate distances it's even higher - if you're even a little off under the best conditions you can miss as often as you hit, assuming he's standing there for you & you can take a bead on his belt-buckle. If you get a target at 150 and all you see is the neck & head peeking around, and your round is going to be 15" off, how precise can you make it?

Not saying the approach is a bad thing, ya just need to understand its limitations. As Gabe points out (correctly imo) most of our modern problems aren't way out there; but if there is one, there's nothing bad about making them keep their heads down with aimed fire.

Off the bench; it's playtime.


How would that be written in Cyrillic?

:D;):dope:оценивать смещение
"estimating the drift" was my best guess at
Kentuckski Vindage

?

5thShock
07-21-2009, 05:39 AM
My understanding is they zero with the sight set at 300 meters because they know that the rear sight elevation ramp will not be milled perfectly. There will be errors, angular errors that grow with range. Zeroing with the slide set at 300 prevents a relatively large error at 300 meters by accepting a relatively small error at 100 meters. I think the high impacts at long range are kind of handy, a six o'clock hold lets you see the whole of that tiny target.

MTS
07-21-2009, 06:01 AM
My understanding is they zero with the sight set at 300 meters because they know that the rear sight elevation ramp will not be milled perfectly. There will be errors, angular errors that grow with range. Zeroing with the slide set at 300 prevents a relatively large error at 300 meters by accepting a relatively small error at 100 meters. I think the high impacts at long range are kind of handy, a six o'clock hold lets you see the whole of that tiny target.

Good point.

WIG19
07-21-2009, 06:06 AM
My understanding is they zero with the sight set at 300 meters because they know that the rear sight elevation ramp will not be milled perfectly. There will be errors, angular errors that grow with range. Zeroing with the slide set at 300 prevents a relatively large error at 300 meters by accepting a relatively small error at 100 meters.LOL - I'd have to agree that there is a possibility of inconsistencies, possibly throughout the entire ramp from one gun (or country) to another. On my subject gun above on the same target at 100, while POI as to elevation was similar, the 300 setting produced a completely unacceptable spread, while the BZO setting is what produced a very good group. And this was borne out by shooting it at an actual 300 yds. My gun is on the BZO notch now, having been proven by me to work from there, and there it shall stay. I wasn't wedded to a particular notch; that happens to turn out where it works, reliably.

Mark's idea of a 2-notch sight starts to have merit. (Assuming QC in the factory is applied because, in essence, that's the way we're using it now.)
:)

hydrashok556
07-23-2009, 08:45 AM
Reading around, I found that the 7.62x39 AK is best suited with a 200 yard zero.


This puts the bullet roughly 4" high at 100 yards, and 15" low at 300 yards.

Whereas zeroing at 300 yards puts you about 8" high at 100 yards.

Now, realistically, I feel that with an AK you are more likely to engage a target at less than 100 yards and that hitting 4" high @ 100 and being zeroed @ 200 is much more practical than hitting 8" high @ 100 and being zeroed @ 300 is.

So, when I finally get to get to the range and zero my new AK, I'm going to put the rear slider on "2" (because 200 yards is close enough to 200 meters) and zero about 4" at 100 yards.

And, looking at Tula's 7.62x39 trajectory tables, there only seems to be about a .5"-.75" difference between the yard and meter conversions out to 300 yds/ms.

http://www.wolfammo.ru/en/site.xp/055048.html

But yeah, 200 yard zero seems like the best path for me to take.


Also, lots of good info in this thread :D

WIG19
07-27-2009, 06:34 AM
Now, realistically, I feel that with an AK you are more likely to engage a target at less than 100 yards and that hitting 4" high @ 100 and being zeroed @ 200 is much more practical than hitting 8" high @ 100 and being zeroed @ 300 is.I happen to agree that the more likely target is inside 100m or so, and can understand your view on the 200yd thing, especially when looking at just the ballistics. However, I think the point of a further zero is that closer in targets leave more room for error due to their proximity, but the longer zero still gets you closer IF you need to make a shot "out there." (I can't get to Tula's tables but have run my own ballstics software against this round, and then verified it by shooting out to that distance.) The BZO concept has been around awhile, taught to facilitate fielding foot-soldiers in the hundreds of thousands, now millions. I got pretty good results inside 150yds with the simple method Gabe recommends; the vagaries of my particular rifle are what got me to check further & refine it a bit. (I think some of the sight notches might've not been milled the best on my particular AK, but the BZO notch is tighter than a wood tick. It's there now & will stay there 99.9% of the time.)

I don't personally feel any lack by holding center of mass at 100m if I end up drilling the enemy in the high-chest. Imo one can get more out of the round's potential by zero'ing a bit closer to the traditional BZO than not - in my case it's about a 265yd zero, and is never more than about 8" high and about -6" at 300. I am not going to advocate one person's zero or another; my rifle is my rifle, shot with my ammo at those distances. Having done that, my focus remains off the bench and shooting at varied distances now. I can tell you that a subdued-color man-silhouette at 300yds flanked by brush or trees, with mirage coming off the intervening grass or other terrain is an interesting deal with an AK & iron sights. And that's not even with them shooting back. But it's most satisfying when you score. (BG targets at 50-75 don't seem to know the difference.)
:D


And, looking at Tula's 7.62x39 trajectory tables, there only seems to be about a .5"-.75" difference between the yard and meter conversions out to 300 yds/ms.300m = ~328yds Out at that distance with a 200yd zero the bullet is already below line-of-sight and still falling from LOS by about 6-8" every 25 yards. Not inconsequential if you have your 200yd zero and are either holding high (and obliterating the target) or trying to find enough front sight post to hold up higher than normal above the rear-sight leaf. Hence, the "best compromise" concept of the BZO, which is also meant to facilitate not having to make a general practice of fiddle-fartin' around with the rear sight in the heat of the moment.

I'd be curious as to the actual outcome of your 200yd zero on 300yd targets, if you're fortunate to have a place you can shoot at that distance (many are not). Especially as to how easily they were engaged in order to achieve hits.
:)

ETA approx front sight adjustments for 7.62x39:
Elev: 1 full revolution of sight post moves bullet approx 7-1/4" @ 100yds (approx 20cm @ 100m)
Wind: Lateral drum movement of approx .040" moves bullet approx 9-1/2" @ 100yds (approx 26cm @ 100m)

sluf
01-22-2011, 10:46 PM
Ok, seen a lot of missinformation. Here is the break down. BZO at 25 meters will set the elevation same as 200 meters. The reason to BZO a weapon is to correct your windage and elevation. This pretains to engaging targets from 25 meters out to 200 meters. At 100 meters the point of impact will be about 6 cm high. Once the BZO is set then you can adjust the elevation to what ever range your targets are at, and the point of impact should be center mass of the target.

sluf
01-22-2011, 11:17 PM
on the rear sight it should be set on "P"

Chris Upchurch
01-23-2011, 05:42 AM
on the rear sight it should be set on "P"

The letter on the rear sight that indicates the battle sight setting varies depending on what country it was made in. Regardless, it's the setting furthest to the rear.

Jakob1944
01-23-2011, 11:55 AM
What size targets are people using for sight in with irons on the AK? I tried to use a standard 100 yard circle target and it was pretty hard for me to see it at 25 meters but i did have some half way decent groups but not real great more sub-side of the barn then sub-moa

I use a 9 inch paper plate, a large black marker and masking tape.......I put a black x on the paper and I can see it at 25 meters......I've been doing it for years

john1969
04-11-2011, 05:38 AM
Conversion Table


Meters to Feet


m - Feet
25 - 82

50 - 164

75 - 246

100 - 328

125 - 410

150 - 492

175 - 574

200 - 656

225 - 738

250 - 820

275 - 902

300 - 984

325 - 1066

350 - 1148

375 - 1220

400 - 1302

I hope this helps

If I only have access to 100Yrd. range, what then?

Hammer
04-11-2011, 05:01 PM
An AK 7.62x39 with rear sight set at the 100 meter mark on the slide. Zeroing at 100 yds. with POI being @ POA, how low should impact be at 25 yds.?

My rifle is ~ 2 inches.

5thShock
04-12-2011, 04:49 AM
Gonna be pretty close to the distance between the top of the front sight and the center of the bore.

Fritzderkat
06-01-2011, 02:01 PM
To Gabe Suarez:

Thanks so much for your tutorial on how to zero an AK.

In December I bought a Saiga carbine chambered in .308, had it converted with a Tapco forearm and six-position butt stock, Dinzag G2 trigger and a Hogue pistol grip.

Living in Minnesnota, it wasn't until April before I was able to get out to the range and subsequently have managed to piss away a couple hunnert rounds of Wolf Gold and Prvi Partisan trying to zero it in. It shot purty well at 25 yards, took some noodling to get in the black at 100, but after finding your originating post here I went out again today and set it up at 25 yards with the rear sight elevated to 100, proceeded to the 100-yard range and found myself in the ballpark, then backed it down to "battle range" and had continued success at 100, 50 and 25 yards. I wouldn't exactly call it "zeroed," although I did manage a 1-1/2 inch group in the bull at 50 yards. Bottom line is it now appears I can hit what I'm shooting at throughout those distances at the "battle sight" setting.

But I do have a question. Whereas my rear sight has numbers for 100, 200 and 300 meters, I don't have a "P" as you mentioned in your post. What I do have, however, is TWO notches below the 100-meter slot so now I have some continued confusion as to which is the "P," which I presume is what you mean by the "battle sight."

Would appreciate your input, thanks.

Fritzderkat

Fritzderkat
06-01-2011, 02:21 PM
Chris Upchurch (above) seems to have answered my question--the furthest notch to the rear is the battle sight.

So, what' the next one for? It's a step up from "battle" and a step below the 100-meter mark.

braindoc
10-13-2011, 07:56 AM
I have a different twist in the zeroing question. Unfortunately my rifle has the front sight base canted a little to the right and the rear sight canted to the left. It is however accurate enough. On a good day, eyesight willing, I can get groups in a clover. So at 25 yards rear sight at "1" I got the POA to be the POI (target is a black square sitting on top the front sight edge, POI is the bottom edge of the target square.). When I put the rear sight at the "p" setting the groups as expected had a higher POI but went to the right. I had to move the front sight to the right to bring the group back to center. So now what should the correct POI relative to the POA be with at 25 yards and rear sight set at "P"? I ask because I don't have easy access to a range with 50 and 100 distances. Thanks in advance for the help.
braindoc

5thShock
10-14-2011, 07:05 AM
P for people on my rear sight is just about like shooting at the 300 meter setting, it will put them 9-10 inches high at 100 yards. 25 yards is one quarter of 100 yards so take one quarter of 10 inches and you get 2.5 inches. With your rear sight set at P adjust your elevation so they hit a bit less than 2.5 inches ABOVE your Point Of Aim. Then try shooting with the rear sight at 300 and see what happens, just to be sure.

rchen404
11-20-2011, 07:03 PM
Hijacked from another thread:



100 rounds and several hours seems....excessive to me. What are they doing wrong?

I spent about 1.5 hours and this is the best I could do at 100 yards (25 was spot on). Is this considered zeroed? It's the 3 shots in the little black circle. Fuller rear sight. arsenal sgl21.

anyone know how many yards Arsenal zeros at (their 3 shots touched)

DBR
12-09-2011, 07:59 PM
According to my QuickTARGET ballistics program shooting a 125gr bullet at 2350FPS if you zero at approx 25 yds you will hit about 3" high at 115 yds, 3" low at 230 yds and 15" low at 300yds. This is with iron sights 1.75" above the bore axis. For a 6" diameter vital zone point blank range is 230yds.

talaananthes
04-17-2012, 09:15 PM
This was very useful sighting in my irons. For an RDS mounted on an Ultimak on a 5.45 rifle, is the recommended zero range 50 meters as per an AR15 style rifle?

jaba1017
05-13-2012, 08:45 AM
My rear sight is canted on one of my AKs. I'm not sure what the problem is but the rear sight blade has a little play in it and rests slightly left. I tried replacing the sight but the replacement had the same problem. I tried increasing the tension on the spring and that helped slightly but did not correct the problem. I think one of the holes that holds the lugs on the rear sight blade might be slightly larger than the other. I tried removing some material from one of the lugs to get a straighter fit, and that aligned the sight but left it wobbly - not dysfunctionally wobbly but irritatingly wobbly. So I pulled that wobbly one off and put the other back on that is canted.

As a result of the cant of the rear sight my POI is slightly left of POA. It is not dramatically left but at 100m it results in POI being about 3 to 4 to the left of POA. Here is an illustration.

21989

Option 1
Do nothing and simply hold POA slightly right.

Option 2
Use the wobbly sight that lays straight.

Option 3
Adjust the front sight post. The front sight post has a factory zero mark. I've measured it's position relative to the barrel and receiver and it is zeroed dead center and the front block is not canted.

My concern with adjusting the front sight post is that although I can get a 100m zero the rifle would still shoot left at longer distances.

Option 4
Remove about 1mm of material to the right of the current notch in the rear sight. This would bring the POA and POI into alignment. However it would open up my sight picture from the current which is about 6moa with +/- 3moa of error depending on the center to 6moa with +/- 6moa of error depending on the center. At 300m rather than shooting into a 3 foot area I would have a 4 1/2 foot window.

I've read of number of posts on here which advocate opening up the notch in the rear sight. But that would seem to kill the accuracy beyond 100m unless you have time and opportunity to assure that your front sight post is centered in the wider notch.

Option 5
Replace with a windage adjustable rear sight. This would fix the problem and would allow flexibility for re-adjustment as necessary. But would spend money that could go to Option 6.

Option 6
Leave it as is and add an optic. This has been my solution in the past to bad sights. But I really wanted to keep this AK basic as a trunk gun. Plus I have the weight of the rifle where I want it.

Any thoughts as to how to correct the rear sight? Or any ideas how to correct it. I guess I could re-drill the holes in the sight block but that would probably FUBR it. And those holes aren't round to start with. I might could replace the spring, though I can't really see how another spring would be different. I also could probably shim it, but I'd like to avoid coat hanger and duct tape fixes.

Thanks

Sasquatch
05-13-2012, 08:54 AM
Jaba, I think I understand ur problem. U seem to be "over thinking" this one. Just take ur AK sight in tool and crank it left to get ur rifle sighted in POA/POI. The front sight won't be centered in the front site ring...but guess what...welcome to AK's. 2 of my 3 are this way to some extent. Once sighted in, it's rock solid for good. I tried rear sights that were adjustable....waste of $$$. Just sight it in and move on.

S.

jaba1017
05-13-2012, 10:38 AM
I think you're right. I'm struggling to remember how to do the math on it, but I think that if the front post is moved .5mm left for a 100m zero, then my POI will only be .5 left at 200m and twice that at 300m. That's not enough deviation to worry about.

21990

Sasquatch
05-13-2012, 11:10 AM
I think you're right. I'm struggling to remember how to do the math on it, but I think that if the front post is moved .5mm left for a 100m zero, then my POI will only be .5 left at 200m and twice that at 300m. That's not enough deviation to worry about.

21990

Hey brother,

Perhaps just still over thinkin' it a bit. Just crank it left a ways and shoot it. If it ain't POA/POI then crank & shoot it again until it is. The AK ain't about mathematical equations & formulas. It's just a rifle that you can depend on!! Take care, S.

Gabe Suarez
08-03-2012, 03:41 PM
exsul...you apparently do not own the copyright to the target you keep posting here and which my moderators keep deleting.

AZBanks
08-20-2012, 11:42 AM
My search-fu is weak today. I have done several searches and can not find a thread that tells the bullet drop at 600 yards(7.62X39). Does anyone have an answer or a link to that information.

Chris Upchurch
08-20-2012, 12:00 PM
My search-fu is weak today. I have done several searches and can not find a thread that tells the bullet drop at 600 yards(7.62X39). Does anyone have an answer or a link to that information.

Depends on the round, the barrel length, how the rifle is zeroed, atmospheric conditions, etc. With those caveats, according to my ballistic calculator, 7.62x39mm Lapua Match from a 16" barrel sighted in at 100 yards will drop 206 inches or 9.5 mils at 600 yards.