View Full Version : The coming of the "Ultra-Violence"

04-24-2004, 08:07 PM
I hope this scenario will turn out to just be a mental exercise, but I'm afraid it won't be. I'm actually more worried about this than I ever was about the Russians attacking us.

So here goes...

I believe the Islamic extremists worldwide, be they Hamas, Al Qaeda, Hezbollah, or some new group, are actively trying to obtain nuclear weapons. If they are not, then as our enemy they are not doing all they can to defeat us. I have read article after article on the internet and elsewhere that the Russians may be missing some of their nuclear material. This is not to mention the fact that Iran and South Korea are alleged to be working on nuclear power, so I believe it will just be a matter of a few years--if that--before the Islamic extremists obtain one or more nuclear bombs.

When they do, their primary goal will be to deliver them to targets within the US. There are several ways they can do this; I won't detail them here. Suffice it to say that if the liberal media can question "holes" in our security then our enemies have already gotten wind of them.

So here's the scenario:

Using several different methods, either cargo carriers in seaports, airplanes, or smuggling up through Mexico, let's say that in the year 20XX that several nuclear bombs with roughly the yield of the Hiroshima bomb find their way into several major US cities. On (month) (day), 20XX, at promptly 9 am, the terrorists coordinate the detonations as precisely as possible. By 9:01 am New York, Washington D.C., Los Angeles, Miami, Chicago, Dallas, and (fill in city here) have ceased to exist.

The country is in chaos. Local television is able to go on the air as much as possible, but national network feeds are gone. National news services are gone. It takes local media in all markets from a few minutes to several hours to inform the public what has happened.

Military and law enforcement are suddenly faced with a nationwide panic. It is not known how much, if any, of our three branches of government have survived.

As the hours go by, it becomes apparent that the national infrastructure has suffered a blow as well. There are major power outages in various places around the country, not to mention the lingering death from the initial attacks, coupled with radiation poisoning, fallout, etc.

As the full implications of what has happened begin to sink in, various factions around the country, including criminal gangs such as the Bloods and the Crips, begin to see this as their chance to take over their "territories." Major gang wars erupt around the country as every two-bit street gang sees this as an opportunity to consolidate its power.

Meanwhile, enough of our military is left, be it nuclear submarines or military units stationed overseas that our former enemies such as Russia and China decide not to "finish us off" since we have enough capability to retaliate that they would not survive without major casualties.

The military, however, is kept busy. Whatever is left of our country's federal government decides immediately to call all troops home from wherever they may be stationed in other countries. Germany is abandoned; South Korea is on its own. Despite the best efforts of various law enforcement and other agencies in the continental US to maintain order, the genie is out of the bottle. Citizens in various sections of the country have to form groups just to survive and fight back against the various gangs and other factions trying to take over. Refugees flee to Canada and Mexico. Anyone with the ability to seek safe haven in another country heads for whatever ports and airports may be in operation.

The government has no choice but to declare martial law. Food lines form as the normal channels of distribution have broken down. Major segments of the economy are missing. For some commodities, only computer records can be used to try to rebuild the supply chain. The only problem is, in major areas of the country the EMP from the nuclear blasts has disrupted all electronic devices, leaving computers, communications, etc., unusable.

The new president of the U.S., Joseph Survivingsenator, cautions people that it may take several weeks or months to restore order. The only way this information has gotten to you is through a badly damaged videotape that you somehow got your hands on through a person with "connections." You also learn that the government is so desperate to restore order that they have begun setting up "concentration camps" and "processing centers" to try to weed out anyone who may present a continuing threat to the country. You wonder if you fit any of the "categories". Your only salvation is that they may be too busy elsewhere to bother you for a while.

You now know that the average citizen in the U.S. is on his own. As word gets around, even normal law-abiding citizens become reduced to animals, looting and pillaging just for basic supplies. The smart people have headed for isolated areas away from the major cities--hopefully to places where they can barter or work for sustenance with someone they know. Some head for the hills just to hide out with relatives or people they know until it all--someday--blows over.

But you--you don't know anyone up in the hills. All you have to work with is what is in your area. You were smart years ago to stock up on weapons and ammunition, but somehow you don't think your small stock of food will last you very long. You need to do something to protect and feed yourself and your family. You also don't know how long this "anarchy" is going to last.

The entire country has come apart and killing, looting, and pillaging are everywhere. This is part of what I call "The Ultra-Violence."

What will you do?

(Okay, a couple of things:

First, some people will say that this scenario is paranoid or that it can't happen. You have a perfect right to your opinion, and it is noted. I'm chalking this scenario up to being somewhere between improbable and likely, in other words, JUST possible. I have based this scenario on information I have obtained from any number of public sources. All I've done is link them together.

Second, I know this scenario is probably full of holes, and that's one of the reasons I started this thread. I WANT someone with knowledge to point out what's wrong with this scenario. Maybe we can then all breathe easier. :)

Third, I don't believe I am giving the terrorists ideas. A lot of my scenario comes from radio talk shows right here in the US. My point is: if several people who call in to radio talk shows can think of these things, then I'm sure the terrorists already have as well. :) I firmly believe that the terrorists have already thought of using nukes on us and are actively working on it. That's why this is so scary.)

So I'd love to read people's responses to this. You can tell me I'm dead wrong, but do it respectfully, please. :)

I'd also love to hear what you'd do in this scenario.

Steve Camp
04-24-2004, 08:46 PM
I will have to chew on this scenario for a little while before I respond with my personal, tactical response.... however, if you have thought of this scenario, hopefully the federal government has as well, and hopefully they have let the governments of all the Islamic nations (Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Morocco etc etc etc) know what the catastrophic consequences to them will be were such an attack to take place on the USA.

So... I would hope that Morocco, Libya, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan, Malaysia all just up and disappear. Hopefully the US Air Force and US Navy will be quite busy that day, but not busy enough to compromise the retaliatory capability against Russia, China etc.

Perhaps the thought of Mecca being fused silica glass for as far as the eye could see... when the pig intestine smeared B61 gravity bomb flashes thousands time hotter than the fires of Hell... will cause the Saudi Royal family et al to work hard to prevent something like this scenario from occurring...

That said... were this to occur... I need more time to think about it...

04-25-2004, 12:01 AM
Jeez Zoid...that's a pretty depressing story you got goin there! We of course don't know if this will ever happen. I think that if we were to get nuked, it would be just one or possibly two, not multiple strikes like in the scenerio.

What would I do if this happened? Go shopping : ) I would just stay in my home, probably the safest place to be. I would team up with a neighbor so that our place would always be covered from possible thiefs. Just stay by the radio/TV and wait it out. I don't ever see our citizens turning into animals just to scrounge for supplies. Most likely everyone would work together to fix the problem. BTW, god help all those poor bastards in the middle east if a nuke ever touches our soil.

Question for you guys: I live about 35 miles outside of Portland,OR(possible nuclear target) If a nuke hits there, do I need to drive as fast as I can away from there or am I safe enough to be in my house?

04-25-2004, 03:19 AM
My first thoughts on this are...

Most likely, as Brian says, there will be fewer rather than many detonations and people will work together more than you think. Don't undestimate the ability of people to step up to the plate, especially with a common enemy. Not that there won't be any problems.
As far as the major gangs, you nuked LA, Miami and New York, what major gangs? :D
Some religious organizations promote keeping up to a years supply of provisions. See why this may be a good idea? Since Y2K, I would have thought more people would have wised up to the idea. We've had multiple potential catastrophies since then and will continue to do have them. The Tango threat is just the most current and active. But I admit I haven't been vigilant about it either.
You mention being caught with a small food supply. Well, it hasn't happened yet and you're thinking about it now, so fix it. Go buy something.

04-25-2004, 10:29 AM
First, I hope this never happens! But I also do believe that there is a somewhat good chance that "they" could try something like it, if we don't stop them very soon.

If it did happen, I would have no choice but to head for the hills, and back to my roots. When I was in school I spent as much time outdoors as indoors, hunting, fishing and camping. The old field books would have to read again to refresh my memory about plants to eat (or not to eat). All my ammo and guns, and fishing gear would be better than gold so they would have to be close at all times. My first thoughts would be to head far north (maybe across the border) away from larger cities and or ant fallout from the bombs. I would try to band together with friends that have the same type of past (or still current) skills in the outdoors.

Next I would gather as many supplies as I or we can carry, then itís into the deep woods as fast as possible (all with in less than 24 hrs). Set up a base camp shelter and start working for survival, bare bones shelter, clean water, food and heat.

04-25-2004, 11:26 AM
This is a possible at the least. Hopefully it can be stopped. I however beleive we will see suicide bombings or bio terrorism more prevalent here in the US than nuclear holocaust.

It would not be paranoia to discretely preapare yourself as much as possible for any of it.

04-25-2004, 05:59 PM
I agree with Georgel's idea of a years food supply stashed away. How many of us have that? I don't have a years worth,but after reading this thread, I just believe I may increase what I do have. I already have enough guns and ammo to start WWIII, so that's a non-issue.

What about a rally point for all WTalker's to defend and claim as their own?

Lawrence Keeney
04-25-2004, 07:02 PM
I think living in a community where you know and trust your neighbors, have armed relatives and friends around you can trust, and can finish a fallujah style gunbattle. Those are the keys to survival in such a situation.

Plus, being able to put across an impression of being the big mean junkyard dog in on the block is also a plus.

I remember a friend in Florida telling me about his neighborhood watch after a hurricane. A car full of gang bangers came down the street the day after the cane struck. The electric was off, and there was major damage. It would have seemed to have been an area ripe for looting.

The car stopped, and before they knew it, they were surrounded at gunpoint by a half dozen suburbanites armed like Seal Team Six.

They never came back, and no one else did, either.

Al Lipscomb
04-25-2004, 07:20 PM
Can you please cite some actual examples from recent (maybe the last 50 years) history where this sort of social breakdown actually took place following a catestrophic disaster?

When I think back on the recent devestating earthquake in Kobe, Japan, I did not see this sort of breakdown social chaos, although the devestation to the city and its infrastructure resembled the aftereffects of a "successful" terrorist bombing.

The loss of life in Japan was trivial and the government was still in full operation. I don't think this level of disaster (multiple nuke hits on major cities along with a capital) has happened in the last 50 years. In Africa there have been problems after famine became severe but that is the only case I can think of without doing some digging.

My fear would be one nuke would get in and do some major damage and then the population at large would demand a stronger government with more regulations and control.

04-25-2004, 07:24 PM
A popular response is to head for the hills. But generally to take a lot of gear with you a vehicle with passable roads is needed. Most of us could not carry on our backs very far at least the stuff we take to the range. Most roads I believe will quickly become blocked with traffic jams unless the area is truly rural. Living on the water would be a good option if you had a boat. Likewise a private plane nearby. But if you don't have a boat or plane nearby and live in at least a semi developed area, I believe you will probably be best served by staying in place. Now if radiation headed your way its a different ballgame. I believe it may be a very mixed situation with a lot of violence in some areas and other areas quiet, if only because roads will become gridlocked around major areas quickly and gasoline will be in short supply. I believe the violence may be strongest around places like Dearborn, Michigan with a large muslim population in an urban setting. I believe a lot of violence would be directed at muslims and muslims symbols.

04-25-2004, 07:35 PM
I live in a small town in rural Georgia. Our town got a federal grant for a well specifically for a indcident such as this. How ever the Mayor and City Council has approved a deal to allow it to be used for watering the cities base ball fields. You had better be prepared to survive at least for a while on your own or with close friends or relatives. As for mass hysteria, you can look at the earth quakes in california and the looting, or other cases of natural or man made disaster(911) and the looting. If these same thugs need food, water, medical supplies they will try and take yours.

04-25-2004, 07:47 PM
That is quite the scenario and I won't spend any time on what if situations. What I can say is that Russia is missing nuclear suitcase bombs. The exact number missing varies depending on the source of the information. In any case, each nuclear suitcase bomb is capable of killing up to 100,000 individuals. There is some evidence that bin Laden has paid Chechyn rebels $30 million dollars in cash plus a huge supply of herion. There are also rumors that at least one nuclear suitcase bomb is already in the United States. For those of you unfamiliar with such devices they can be detonated as easy as making a phone call to a cell phone that is the detonation trigger!!! That is the bad news in a very short order. The good news is that, at this point, it is unlikely that bin Laden actually has any of the suitcase bombs. If he did why hasn't he used it by now. The gov't does have contingency plans for such a disaster as described. Planning vs applying the plan can be two very different situations!!!

04-25-2004, 08:58 PM
Check out this link:


It sounds like a major player in the insurance/investment industry sees this as a likely scenario.

04-25-2004, 11:37 PM
Well Zoid, according to this scenario, I'm already dead and so is everyone I know.

04-26-2004, 01:50 AM
I'm with TX, as live in the sites of the U.S.'s largest Naval Base, guess I just hit 7-11, and then the beach and watch the rest come in

04-26-2004, 04:52 AM
I live 32 miles from Seattle and also not too far from a Sub base, so If I'm not already vapor, My options might be limited. My first take at this would be to see how much of my family I could find (they all live close) after that I'd stay on my property (rural). If that were not possible I'd go to the town's shelter. Once I knew my family was taken care of, I'd be working the situation, as part of the City's emergency radio group and also part of the Civil Defense team.
If one needs a reminder of what chaos in the streets looks like remember the LA riots? I'm not sure any of us can tell what human nature will do to some, if they think it is the end times.

04-27-2004, 10:43 PM
Even if the entire federal government were destroyed, the state governments would still be fully functional, so law and order would prevail. I expect that the state governments would electronically meet and form an interim federal government.

Low Drag
05-01-2004, 02:09 PM
Well first it would take bombs a lot bigger than the WWII era type to take out an entire city like NY or DC. On the bright side just think how many liberal media types it would take out. Suitcase bombs are small too.

In a disaster AM radio is the way to go, gets info out fast an they are cheap everyone should have one.

Iím not too sure about the social break down. After 9/11 I knew guys in PDís and volunteer FDís in Western NY state. The cops put 4 in a car and started driving like hell down the Thu-way. Same for volunteer fire fighters, they went to their bosses at Kodak, Xerox etc and were told to go. They got in trucks and drove like hell to NY City. They got turned around at the bridges going into NY City because they were not union, but thatís another issue.

I think the same thing would play out in as many cities that where hit like that. I would think the entire National Guard and reserves would be called up ASAP. I think most folks would be civil and for those that did not, those that are civil would dispatch them with no worries. (thatís where we come in)

We should all have minimum 5 days of food & water for each member of your family. Some form of shelter, chlorine bleach an coffee filters to purify more water. Iíd use my coolers to put all the frozen food in and eat that first. Camp stove and camp grill and Iím good to go.

Then to those that did it get ready for some real pissed off Americans with the best military gear known to man and a big permission slip. Make the Opera audience mad an you deserve everything you get.

05-01-2004, 04:07 PM
Multiple attacks might be the far end of the likelihood scenario but a singular attack, I believe is a real possiblity. The nuclear device scenario has a lot of follow on issues that in many ways is greater than the physical elements of the attack. Take Sep 11 for example. The economic impact is disproportional to the physical damage. A nuclear attack would also have morale and shock impact greater than Sep 11th. I believe that the situation would be dealt with in the same positive manner as Sep 11th but the long term aspects for the economy would be great. Imagine for example that the attack came from a seacontainer being offload in XXXX harbor. Now to counter that threat the US stops the unloading/loading of seacontainers until it can figure out a protocol. Imagine the impact of no imports or exports for a week, two weeks....Don't forget that an extremely large part of our commercial industries rely on just in time delivery systems and try not to have a large amount of items in stock. A disruption of the delivery system would have a number of branches and sequals that would effect us all.

I think it is prudent to establish a level of self sufficency for your own self preservation. I think things will sort themselves out in due time but the question is how comfortable will you and your love ones be while the economy readjusts?


05-02-2004, 10:54 AM
Good post ( as usual.) Interesting that you mention sea ports.
Here in Brazil there is already quite an arguement amongst politicians, reference new rules for sea transport of containers leaving Brazil, - on route to the USA. - The same rules must apply for other countries too.
The containers must be checked, with special equipment, operated only by Americans, before leaving the port on route to the USA.
It has awoken certain nationalist/anti-American sentiments.
Security must be taken seriously of course. But certain extreme measures might have a similarly damaging ( although long-term ) effect.

If I were an American, I would certainly be considering some type of plan. - NOTHING extreme, ( Bomb shelter for example.) But the purchasing of certain products to be stock piled. Ammo & un-registered firearms for sure. Canned foods, bottled water. If I had a country house, that is where I'd stock up. Don't forget gasoline. Spare parts for the 4x4.

Money is not important. Better to convert your money into goods that could be sold/swapped. - Either during any crisis, or later when all has calmed down.



05-02-2004, 11:20 AM
Your basic premise is a decapitation strike. Our strategic forces have been prepared for that for decades as a result of the russian threat. I think on their best day the terrorists couldent execute decapitation strike with 1/100th the results the russians might have expected.

That being the case I think its really unlikely that the new russia or china would be confident enough in our level of strategic nuclear disability to risk pileing on. All it takes is one guy with launch codes and a radio to contact one guy in a balistic missile sub, or commanding B2 Wing and the whole venture suddenly becomes insanely risky.

The terrorists sure could kill a lot of people but were a big country, with a lot of people and, quite frankly, we could survive very as a country without a whole bunch of them. Take a look at the red county/blue county map from the last election. New York, Seattle, D.C., Frisco, L.A. Harsh but true.

In a lot of ways the war on terror would be easier after a terrorist nuclear attack then it is now. No political bickering and pussy footing with the UN, no more prattle about detain'es, no more servicing terrorist targets 1 by 1 with an AR....... The nuclear game is one the terrorists might be able to start, but they have no ability to finish it. We Do.

06-09-2004, 02:54 PM
I'd almost like to see a near total societal / governmental breakdown. We'd end up having an internet again within a year- MAXIMUM. Maybe not a BIG internet, but we'd have it back. I expect things would rebuild very quickly, as long as the thousands of little feudal leaders that would pop up with followings were able to get along and work together.

Think about it- in this scenario, pretty much every Joe Shmoe with the capacity for leadership is going to take a crack at glory. Power to 'em.

06-10-2004, 11:23 AM
What UN. It's in New York which is gone!

As for co-operation, on Aug 14, 2003, when the northeast lost electricity, I saw ordinary folks out on the street corners directing traffic that was trying to get to the tunnels to get out of the city (and doing a better job of it than the police do normally - perhaps there was more of a spirit of co-operation among the drivers)

Having said that, I wonder what co-operation was like in the stairwell of the Trade Center North tower (first one hit but second to collapse) after the south tower collapsed.

06-21-2004, 05:17 PM

Isn't someone writing a novel about this exact scenario and posting it on the web?



06-21-2004, 05:47 PM
For myself I would do a few simple things.

Fill the water barrels in the garage.
Talk to a few neighbors and friends.
Leave a MBR handy.

Other than that I would take a wait and see attitude.

I already have almost everything I nee here to ride it out for a long while. If necessary I can bug out but I would rather bug in and see what happens while all those around me panic and lose their heads.

Oh and one other thing. I would be saying my prayers for every American fighting man and woman, that they would visit death and destruction on the perpertators and anyone else involved the likes of somthing the world has never seem before.


06-21-2004, 07:33 PM
My only question is this: When and how are we going to link ourselves (here on this forum, along with like minded individuals) together to create a kind of Quick Reaction Group to work the streets to fight the terrorists should they attempt to engage in such open hostilities on our soil?

06-21-2004, 08:00 PM
A QRG? :confused: Well my first duty is to take are of me and mine and then muy friends and neighbors. There is no way I am heading into town to become some kind of milita? :rolleyes: Sorry bro but get yourself another patsy for that work. :mad: If the scenario you painted happens teh smart folks will just hunker down and take care of the family and friends and wait it out. If trouble comes a calling then it will be deal with but i am not going out looking for it when I am the sole source of protection for me and mine.


06-21-2004, 08:47 PM
My only response is that I don't have a "mine" - only me. I have no family anywhere near me, and my girlfriend has her family she can be with. The only thing I'd label as "mine" is America. Sounds corny, I know, but if someone wants to bring the fight to me and "mine", I'm gonna give it back in spades. Or at least try.

06-21-2004, 09:01 PM
ok you get right on tha tgrasshopper.

As for me I will take care of me and mine wich means me and the GF and wait it out. Can I have you stuff after you get killed charging into battle?


06-21-2004, 09:17 PM
LOL! Absolutely. To paraphrase: "If I die first, you can split my gear". Just drop somebody in memory of me with my rifle, please.

Sorry, I don't mean to sound all "True Grit". But I'm young and aggressive, and events like the one detailed above give me the red a$$ something fierce. What can I say, I was raised on "Red Dawn" and "Iron Eagle". lol.

Seriously, though, I'm pretty protective of not only this nation, but the people in it. Again, it sounds corny - I can deal with that. And I don't know if I'd "charge into battle" like Cochise. I hope I'd be a little more subtle. But I'd definitely do something.

06-21-2004, 11:13 PM
CHI, nothing wrong with your thoughts, you will be involved in it no matter what, as most all PD's will get sucked up most ricky tick, and be on the streets just as they were in Homestead FL, after whats's its name blew thru

07-06-2004, 04:02 PM
I'm pretty fortunate here in South Dakota. If we were fighting the Russians, I might have to worry, with all those corn silos and their hidden missiles beneath the ground LOL.

But this scenario clearly states that the major cities would be hit, and the loss of government control.

One thing you have to think about if you live in town, is that if you start shooting on a regular basis out in the open, your going to have difficulty if the cavalry does show up. They're going to want to be in COMPLETE control. And that will likely include being in control of all of us.

It would just be a bad deal.

Another thing to consider is that if you have 20,000 rounds and 10 AR's in the basement, you can't carry all that crap anyway. 1 weapon will get you another in a pinch, if you're careful.

Fresh water supplies and dry food stuffs is going to be the answer IMHO.

Of course I'd be armed out the wazoo, but no to the point that mobility is limited.

Out here, I can see over the corn fields for a good mile or two in any direction from our place. Dirt roads in and out, cause dust from vehicles unless it's been raining. It would be a tough time, but I think we'd stay put, at least for a while. See how things turn out.

Steve Camp
07-06-2004, 04:11 PM
Anybody know where I can get me a decent M113, preferably the A3 variant? :D

07-06-2004, 04:23 PM
Steve I sent you a PM about pilots license, you're welcome to email me directly if you're willing to talk about getting one.

07-06-2004, 04:44 PM
Anybody know where I can get me a decent M113, preferably the A3 variant? :D
Sure call United Defense (+1 (408) 289-0308) and order (NSN): 2350-01-219-7577.:p

07-06-2004, 04:57 PM
Well hopefully a town of 30,000 is not on that major cities list.

But situated where we are b/w two juicy targets like ATL and Charlotte, I think my town is one of those bug-out locations that people will come to. So my problem will be dealing with the flood of people coming into town with no shelter and no immediate source of food or water.

In order to deal with that it will be hunker down time. If it gets bad then we can make it out to the 30 acres with the well and the generator. Not to mention a few head of cattle, two fully stocked tanks, and plenty of deer ready to give their lives for the survival of me and mine.

07-06-2004, 05:03 PM
So my problem will be dealing with the flood of people coming into town with no shelter and no immediate source of food or water.

In order to deal with that it will be hunker down time. If it gets bad then we can make it out to the 30 acres with the well and the generator. Not to mention a few head of cattle, two fully stocked tanks, and plenty of deer ready to give their lives for the survival of me and mine.

Hoping the flood of people hasn't found it, taken it over, and eaten your livestock.

07-06-2004, 05:46 PM
Good point.

The war wagon probably needs to be loaded up and headed out to the ranch in the first hours.

Better to move to the position that can sustain us longer and deal with the potential looting of the primary residence after the fact.

07-06-2004, 09:22 PM
I was in LA during the Northridge quake, working for the Bureau of Engineering. Now this was really a very small (relatively) disaster. Actual earthquake caused deaths were less than two dozen, maybe a couple of thousand max injured bad enough to need emergency medical care. So what I observed needs to be multiplied by at least 500 times for the scenario described in this thread.

Hospitals were overwhelmed IMMEDIATELY, within just a few minutes of the quake. Emergency services, in many cases, first checked out their own families before responding to calls. I have been told, in private and with deniability, by a several LEOs and firemen that their families come first. If there is time and opportunity, they will help the rest of us, but not until they have secured their own.

The city gave out all emergency information over TV, because that way the suits could be on camera. Unfortunately, most of the city was without electricity, so only battery radios could have received the instructions. My mother called us from Florida four times a day to keep us updated, since she could watch the suits parading in front of the TV cameras and get the latest instructions to us that way.

When all of us engineering types were assembled at Van Nuys Building & Safety, the suits kept us standing around for almost four hours while they had orgasms giving us inspiring and contradictory speeches. Most of them fell immediately in love with their own voices on the amplifiers, and simply could not stop talking. It is important to remember that most people who rise to positions of leadership are certifiable narcissists, and will react accordingly.

Much of LA city is populated by immigrants, many from countries that have regular earthquakes. En masse, they ignored all of the statements and pronouncements from the suits, and moved into tents and tarp shelters away from any structures. Yards, parks, median strips, all became instant tent cities.

From the moment the first TV cameras were rolling, politics dictated almost all of the decisions by the suits. Licensed Civil Engineers have quite a bit of authority, and we had some fun over-ruling LAPD suits that were insisting that the line officers work in structurally damaged buildings.

It is widely rumored, and as a city hall worker at that time I believe it to be true, that the Chief of Police Gates, the Mayor Bradley, and the fire chief, canít remember his name, were all three totally paralyzed after the quake. They were absolutely unable to make a rational decision. The Governor flew into town, and apparently threatened the three of them with instant martial law (which would have temporarily removed them from their positions of leadership) before they could begin to talk to one another and try to take charge of the situation.

So there you have it. My impressions over all? Civil authorities are not mentally or emotionally equipped to deal with large-scale disasters. If you rely on them you will suffer. Secondly, their plans are so much BS. Simi Valley lays one ridge away from the San Fernando Valley, with only two choke point roads into the valley. Just two years ago I asked about the plans for dealing with half a million refugees from LA pouring over the Santa Susana pass into Simi, looking for vehicles, food and water, etcetera. There is no plan. Simi PD doesnít have to have a plan because any sane person. LEO or otherwise would grab his family and get the hell out of there before the human wave climbs over the stalled cars in the pass and swarms into town.

Neighbors work well together, if they are not overwhelmed by intruders from the strike points of the attack. I worked in a flood in Tulsa many, many years ago and my experience, especially in the first two days was that the person to person volunteer response was stronger, and much more adept at self-organization than any resources provided by the civil authorities, which were late, inadequate and poorly managed.

Americans, even the ones educated in todayís schools, are very good at self-organization and self-government. I would suggest that your plans for this scenario focus on self-help, and working with those folks around you. Forget the civil authorities, and remember that the National Guard, when it deploys, will have different priorities than your citizens groups. Since there will have been many intermittent and deadly gun battles between refugees from the strike points and those who live in the path of their retreat, the Guard will attempt to disarm you immediately, if they find out you have arms.

Just like in war, you and the people that are in your immediate geographical area, will band together and you will find that your decisions are based upon loyalty to that group, not to a particular religion, ethnicity, or political grouping.

God bless and be careful out there.

Steve Camp
07-06-2004, 09:51 PM
Forget the civil authorities, and remember that the National Guard, when it deploys, will have different priorities than your citizens groups. Since there will have been many intermittent and deadly gun battles between refugees from the strike points and those who live in the path of their retreat, the Guard will attempt to disarm you immediately, if they find out you have arms.

Question 1: Would the guard have legal authority to disarm the citizenry? Would such an attempt NOT be a direct affront to the 2nd Amendment... and the Founding Fathers' express desire AGAINST a standing army???

If the answer to Question 1 is Yes, they would have authority because martial law was declared... Can someone explain to me from where in the Constitution / Bill of Rights & other Constitutional amendments that Martial Law derives it's legal status / power? Or is there no such thing as Martial Law in the USA? (Or is it on a state level only and State Constitutions grant Martial Law power to Governors?)

Question 2) Does anyone thing fighting the National Guard in such a situation is reasonable / feasible / morally right? I think it would probably be tactical suicide if not strategic suicide. On the other hand... maybe it would HAVE to be done. Thoughts?

Question 3) If the answer to Question 2 is NO, DO NOT ENGAGE the Nat'l Guard... then what -- I mean... if you've been using your arms to preserve life and property (but mostly life)... now you are ripe for the picking, I mean confiscating... So now what to do? Hide really well, your arms?

07-07-2004, 05:35 AM
"They got turned around at the bridges going into NY City because they were not union, but thatís another issue."

That being the case the Govenor should have declared martial law, thereby suspending all union activity. I find it hard to believe that experienced police and fire department personnel were not allowed on the scene ASAP after the attack.

07-07-2004, 08:59 AM
It seems that most of the warriors here are responding to this scenario with either "Grab my family and our survival gear and head for the hills" or "Gather my family and hunker down to wait it out". Both expect that the situation will turn to anarchy and both say, "It's not my problem. Let someone else deal with it." But is that a self-fulfilling prophecy?

Yes, most people, including many so-called "leaders", will simply be frozen in shock until someone takes command and starts giving orders. If noone takes charge, then each individual will desparately try to resolve things themselves. And that's when we hit the "ultra-violence".

But let's change the course a little bit. I know that every city, county, and state has plans written up to deal with such emergencies. Many didn't before 9-11, but it is expected now. If you think your elected officials haven't done this, then get on them to fix it ASAP! Volunteer to help create the plan. If practical, get with your local emergency services folks and find out the plan and volunteer your services.

If you don't get around to learning the existing plans before the disaster strikes, then head down to the local fire station, police station, etc. and volunteer. If you arrive and everyone's just sitting around in shock, remind them there should be plans for how to deal with this and ask them how you can fit into that plan. This should jog their memory and get them acting according to the plan. If the assigned leaders continue to sit in shock, then take charge yourself. If noone knows of a pre-existing plan, then start one and start people moving.

Key items needed will be security, communication (internal and external), medical and other emergency services, and food, water, and shelter for the residents and any "refugees". If a suitcase nuke is detonated in downtown Houston (35 miles south of here), then I expect we'll set up a tent-city somewhere for any survivors fleeing that area. The area hospitals will probably be overflowing soon, so volunteers and overflow space will be needed. The local stores become supply houses for the effort. If the owners/managers of the stores are reluctant, remind them that they can either be part of the organized response or they will soon be dealing with looters. Try to document any supplies taken so the store can be somewhat reimbused by insurance or "disaster area" funding later.

If you have kids and don't want to leave them alone while you go volunteer to help in recovery, then quickly organize your neighbors. If you've got kids, you probably already know many of the other neighbors that have kids. Gather several families together in one house. Assign some folks to child-care duty. (One adult and a few teenage girls with babysitting experience can handle a lot of kids.) Assign a person (or two or three) to provide security for the occupants. Then gather every other able-bodied person and head down to the local emergency-services department to volunteer together.

It's a lot easier to follow than to lead, so the masses won't try desparate measures if someone's taken charge and started resolving the problems at hand. And when the National Guard shows up, they will join your effort and provide "relief-in-place" because it's much easier for them to follow your lead than to try and start from scratch. But this only works if the warriors among us will step up to join together rather than hunkering down and saying, "It's not my problem!"